John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 1,581 through 1,600 (of 25,999 total)
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  • #109741
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 04 2008,12:24)
    btw Mandy – sorry to disappoint but I did start by saying a few posts back:

    Quote
    Don't know that I can explain it LU, can try to set forth my understanding as it stands.
    But I expect that it takes a revelation to get this (aka GOD has to quicken scriptures by HIS SPIRIT)
    Guess that's why its termed the mystery of godliness…

    I stand by that – noone can explain to satisfaction this mystery so that all will see it,
    if they could then Paul or one of the writers of the gospels or Jesus himself would have done so.
    It takes a revelation from GOD, HE is sovereign in this I believe.


    Fair enough. Thanks for the response. I didn't see if Kathi responded or not? I guess your answer was good enough for her.

    Take care,
    Mandy

    #109759
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Mandy,
    Malcolm said that he believes that the Son of God was the “arm of God”, the agent used in creation by the Father.  I have said that myself and can certainly understand how that could be.  The scriptures are written in a progressive revelation where the New Testament's teaching shed light on the OT.  Some of the OT has passages say that “I alone” created the world and the NT passages say that He did it through Christ.  We need to interpret scripture with scripture and understand that the NT is giving the reader a fuller picture of things not a lesser picture.  We build precept upon precept.
    God bless,
    Kathi

    #109773
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 04 2008,05:32)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 04 2008,17:49)
    Hi LU,
    So the son of God is not really a son.
    More of a clone?


    Nick, I couldn't see in LU's post where that is mentioned. What sentence or text of LU's are you referring to.

    Thanks.


    Good question t8, thanks!
    LU

    #109781
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 04 2008,11:00)

    Quote (david @ Oct. 04 2008,14:47)

    Quote
    The difficulty is this:- John 1:3, Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:3 and Heb 1:10 all establish that Yeshua, at the very least, was involved in the creation event. Isa 44:24 does not allow for the involvement of any agency outside of YHWH.

    Hi Paul.  It's been a while.  I wish you would discuss Phil 2:5-7 in that thread.  I respect your research and your very detailed analysis of scripture.  That being said…..

    “This is what the LORD says—
          your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb:
          I am the LORD,
          who has made all things,
          who alone stretched out the heavens,
          who spread out the earth by myself,

    I think we have to consider the context of that chapter.
    Jehovah is asserting his superiority over false gods.  If we look at the context, it is all about how these gods have no power, no nothing.  How they are responsible for nothing.  We are comparing false gods with Jehovah, the true God.  This verse is not making a point to say that Jehovah existed alone.  In context, it's making a point to say that all the credit goes to Jehovah.

    Here's a similar verse:

    JEREMIAH 32:17
    ““Alas, O Sovereign Lord Jehovah! Here you yourself have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and by your outstretched arm. The whole matter is not too wonderful for you yourself,”

    He made the heavens and the earth by his great power and by his arm.  He alone is RESPONSIBLE for this.  It was his power that was behind it.  
    When we think back to Jesus miracles, they were actually done by means of God's holy spirit.  Jesus always gave the credit to God, did he not?  Yet, he was there, and had a part, right?

    Quoting what others have said:
    “Jehovah is the Arquitect and Jesus is the contractor. Guess who receives all the credit?”

    And quoting someone else:
    It would be better to read the whole chapter 44 rather than concentrating on verse 24 only. Why did Jehovah said, He created all things by Himself. Please read verses 7-21. Jehovah was stressing the uselessness of carved image and false gods. He was comparing His glory and power against those lifeless gods. It is logical then that He only mentions Himself. Because, the issue here is between the True God Jehovah against false gods-carved image. It's pretty simple


    Hi David

    Well then how about this context…

    O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, (not gods) thou art the God, even “thou alone“, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth. Isa 37:16

    Which “alone” spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea. Job 9:8

    Here is a couple especially for the Henotheist and the Polytheist…

    Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods” **that have not made** the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens. Jer 10:11

    For *all the gods* of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens. Pss 96:5

    Your Bible calls Yahshua “a god”, and LU say's that Yahshua is her great God and Saviour and yet he is not the “One true God”. How do you reconcile this with YHWH alone, by himself created all things?

    And if Yeshua was the quote “firstborn of creation” (or came into existence as a separate sentient being) then would he not be like the Father?

    Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and “there is none else”; I am God, and “there is none like me”, Isa 46:9

    If Yeshua was a separate sentient being or “creation”, (for all things were created including the born), and he was involved in the creation as such then he would have surely been beside the Father…

    Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Isa 45:21

    That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that “there is none beside me“. I am the LORD, and there is none else. Isa 45:6

    Here is what the Lord says about making any other being “a god”…

    Exod 23:13
    “Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and do not mention the name of other gods, nor let them be heard from your mouth. Exod 23:13

    Isa 44:8
    Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any. Isa 44:8

    None could create the universe but God alone, because creation is a work of infinite power, and could not be produced by any finite cause or being: For the distance between being and not being is truly infinite, which could not be removed by any finite agent, or the activity of all finite agents united.

    YHWH is One. John knew this when he was inspired to write…

    In the beginning1 was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.The Word was with God in the beginning. All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created. John 1:1-3

    This same Word/God was manifested and we beheld his image and Glory…

    No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known. John 1:18

    WJ


    Hi WJ,

    Quote
    And if Yeshua was the quote “firstborn of creation” (or came into existence as a separate sentient being) then would he not be like the Father?

    Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and “there is none else”; I am God, and “there is none like me”, Isa 46:9

    He would NOT be like the Father in that the Father ALWAYS EXISTED and was the SOURCE of all things good. He would be like the Father's nature, though. So the Son is like the Father in some things and not like Him in other things.

    Quote

    If Yeshua was a separate sentient being or “creation”, (for all things were created including the born), and he was involved in the creation as such then he would have surely been beside the Father…

    Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared t
    his from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
    Isa 45:21

    That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that “there is none beside me“. I am the LORD, and there is none else. Isa 45:6

    WJ, this is your favorite translation of John 1:18, right? This verse gives us two individuals in fellowship, not one and not three:

    No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known. John 1:18

    You also know that this verse is translated as the Son of God being the “only begotten God.” This translation also speaks of two called God (and we know that the Father is the “one true God”), not one and not three:

    biblegateway Joh 1:18
    No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

    Interesting that the NIV says that there is God the One and Only at the Father's side, again that makes two, not one and not three:

    NIV
    biblegateway Joh 1:18
    No-one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

    Notice in that last translation that the Son is at the “side” of the Father. So is He at the side of His Father as this says or is He not as Isa 45:21 says “there is none beside me.”

    We know that both are correct in their own context so there must be more to it than what meets the eye. ???

    Now regarding created beings, when God made man, He made the first man out of dust, Adam, and the woman He made out of the first man's rib. He started with something of a different nature and created something else, a first of its kind with a unique nature. I believe that the firstborn of God came from God Himself who wasn't created and so the firstborn wasn't born from something of a created kind originally, later He humbled Himself and came in the likeness of man into a body prepared for Him that was from a created kind.

    LU

    #109862

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 05 2008,04:05)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 05 2008,01:58)

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 04 2008,13:44)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 04 2008,13:39)
    This would be true if the scriptures say Yahshua is “an” image of the invisible God.


    Still true if he is the image of the invisible God.

    Is the Father the image of the invisible God?

    No, Yeshua is.

    The Father is the one true God and Jesus Christ is who God sent.

    For 'us', there is one God the Father. For you there is one God the Father, Son, Spirit.

    You cannot be 'us' in this context.


    Hi t8

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 04 2008,13:44)

    Is the Father the image of the invisible God?

    Yes, if the Father who is invisible makes himself visible. Would the “image” you see not be God? ???

    Again, you reduce Gods image to being less than God therefore creating a false image of God!

    WJ


    Hi WJ,
    Do you think that when Jesus revealed the nature of God he himself became invisible?

    God was in him reconciling the world to Himself[2cor 5]

    But he was not the God Who was in him.


    Hi NH

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 05 2008,04:05)

    But he was not the God Who was in him.

    The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father.

    Of course you would not say that the Father is the Son who is in him!    :)

    WJ

    #109863
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WJ,
    The Father is the God of Jesus and should be yours too.
    My children stay away from idols.

    #109864

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 05 2008,17:16)
    Hi Mandy,
    Malcolm said that he believes that the Son of God was the “arm of God”, the agent used in creation by the Father.  I have said that myself and can certainly understand how that could be.  The scriptures are written in a progressive revelation where the New Testament's teaching shed light on the OT.  Some of the OT has passages say that “I alone” created the world and the NT passages say that He did it through Christ.  We need to interpret scripture with scripture and understand that the NT is giving the reader a fuller picture of things not a lesser picture.  We build precept upon precept.
    God bless,
    Kathi


    Hi LU

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 05 2008,17:16)

    We need to interpret scripture with scripture and understand that the NT is giving the reader a fuller picture of things not a lesser picture.  We build precept upon precept.

    This is true.

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

    From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours.  2 Peter 1:1 NET

    …as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13

    With regard then to eating food sacrificed to idols, we know that “an idol in this world is nothing,” and that “there is no God but one”. If after all “there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth” (as there are many gods and many lords), yet “for us there is one God”, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we live, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we live. 1 Cor 8:4-6

    Is Paul and Peter contradicting themselves when they say…

    “…our God and Savior, Jesus Christ“,

    and…

    “…the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ“.

    and then Paul says…

    “there is no God but one”. and…“for us there is one God” ???

    Not at all.

    Many have used 1 Cor 8:6 falsely to prove the Trinitarian view wrong. Paul’s language is to make the distinction between the person of the Father and Yeshua by using the term “God” for the Father and “Lord” for Yeshua so not to convey “modalism” or “oneness”.

    If the term “God” is exclusive to the Father then the term “Lord” must be exclusive to Yeshua. Of course many would not claim the Father is not “Lord”.

    Now let’s look at the language that Paul uses for his description of Yeshua in verse 6.

    …one Lord, Jesus Christ, “through whom” are all things and “through whom” we live.

    So while it appears that this part of the verse is proof that Paul is saying Yeshua is not God because he says “through whom”, then compare scripture with scripture…

    Paul writes…

    For of him, and “through him”, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. Rom 11:36

    A close examination of Romans chapter 11 shows that “the One” Paul speaks of in verse 36, he calls both Lord and God in that chapter without mentioning who it is he speaks of, the Father or Yeshua.

    If you say the Lord here is Yeshua, then you are saying Yeshua is God. If you say the Lord here is the Father, then you still are saying Yeshua is God based on Paul’s statement in 1 Cor 8:6

    one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and “through whom” we live. 1 Cor 8:6

    For of him, and “through him”, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. Rom 11:36

    So is Paul contradicting himself? Not at all.

    For us there is “One God”.

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

    From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours.  2 Peter 1:1 NET

    …as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13

    Paul, Peter, and John agrees with YHWH…

    Exd 20:3
    Thou shalt have “no other gods” before me.

    Exd 23:13
    And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and “make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth”.

    WJ

    #109865

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 06 2008,17:06)
    Hi WJ,
    The Father is the God of Jesus and should be yours too.
    My children stay away from idols.


    NH

    He is!

    :)

    WJ

    #109868
    david
    Participant

    WJ, what are your thoughts on the Sahidic Coptic translating of John 1:1 as “a god.”

    Much was made of it in the scholarly world when an apocryphal gospel written in Coptic, titled the “Gospel of Thomas,” was discovered in Egypt near Nag Hammadi in December 1945.
    Yet, after an initial welcome, the scholarly world has been strangely silent about an earlier and more significant find, the Sahidic Coptic translation of the canonical Gospel of John, which may date from about the late 2nd century C.E.–George William Horner, The Coptic version of the New Testament in the southern dialect, otherwise called Sahidic and Thebaic, 1911, pp. 398, 399

    This manuscript was introduced to the English-speaking world in 1911 through the work of [Reverend] George William Horner. Today, it is difficult even to find copies of Horner's translation of the Coptic canonical Gospel of John. It has been largely relegated to dusty library shelves, whereas copies of the “Gospel of Thomas” (in English with Coptic text) line the lighted shelves of popular bookstores.

    In the book, The Text of the New Testament (Eerdmans, 1987), Kurt and Barbara Aland, editors of critical Greek New Testament texts, state:
    “The Coptic New Testament is among the primary resources for the history of the New Testament text. Important as the Latin and Syriac versions may be, it is of far greater importance to know precisely how the text developed in Egypt.”
    (Page 200)

    The Sahidic Coptic text of the Gospel of John has been found to be in the Alexandrian text tradition of the well-regarded Codex Vaticanus (B) (Vatican 1209), one of the best of the early extant Greek New Testament manuscripts. Coptic John also shows affinities to the Greek Papyrus Bodmer XIV (p75) of the late 2nd/3rd century.–Aland, p. 91

    Concerning the Alexandrian text tradition, Dr. Bruce Metzger states that it “is usually considered to be the best text and the most faithful in preserving the original.”--Bruce M. Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, 2nd  edition, United Bible Societies, 1994, page 5

    Therefore, it is all the more strange that insights of the Sahidic Coptic text of John 1:1 are largely ignored by popular Bible translators. Might that be because the Sahidic Coptic Gospel of John translates John 1:1c in a way that is unpopular in Christendom? The Sahidic text renders John 1:1c as auw neunoute pe pshaje, clearly meaning literally “and was a god the Word.”Unlike koine Greek, Sahidic Coptic has both the definite article, p, and the indefinite article, u. The Coptic text of John 1:1b identifies the first mention of noute as pnoute, “the god,” i.e., God. This corresponds to the koine Greek text, wherein theos, “god,” has the definite article ho- at John 1:1b, i.e., “the Word was with [the] God.”

    The koine Greek text indicates the indefiniteness of the word theos in its second mention (John 1:1c), “god,” by omitting the definite article before it, because koine Greek had no indefinite article. But Coptic does have an indefinite article, and the text employs the indefinite article at John 1:1c. This makes it clear that in reading the original Greek text, the ancient Coptic translators understood it to say specifically that “the Word was a god.”

    The early Coptic Christians had a good understanding of both Greek and their own language, and their translation of John's koine Greek here is very precise and accurate. Because they actually employed the indefinite article before the word “god,” noute, the Sahidic Coptic translation of John 1:1c is more precise than the translation found in the Latin Vulgate, since Latin has neither a definite nor an indefinite article.

    It may be noted that the earliest Coptic translation was likely made before Trinitarianism gained a foothold in the churches of the 4th century. That may be one reason why the Coptic translators saw no need to violate the sense of John's Greek by translating it “the Word was God.”
    (I copied most of this info from a website that no longer exists.)

    Anyway, wondering what others think of the coptic translation?

    #109869
    gollamudi
    Participant

    So how many Gods or gods are there for you brother David;
    one is almighty and other is small 'god' or mighty god. Am I correct ?

    #109870

    Hi LU

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 04 2008,11:00)

    And if Yeshua was the quote “firstborn of creation” (or came into existence as a separate sentient being) then would he not be like the Father?

    Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and “there is none else”; I am God, and “there is none like me”, Isa 46:9

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 05 2008,18:41)
    He would NOT be like the Father in that the Father ALWAYS EXISTED…  


    But you base your theory that “Yeshua did not always exist”,  on ambiguous scriptures and a “personal” revelation that goes beyond scriptures.

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 05 2008,18:41)

    …and was the SOURCE of all things good.


    one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are **all things** and “through whom” we live. 1 Cor 8:6

    1:17 He himself is before all things and ”all things are held together in him”. Col 1:17

    The Son is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, and he sustains all things by his powerful word…, Heb 1:3

    In fact Yeshua is the “Way, the Truth and the Life”. So yes Yeshua is also the source, for all things are his.

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 05 2008,18:41)
    He would be like the Father's nature, though. So the Son is like the Father in some things and not like Him in other things.


    Really? Can you name one attribute scripturally that the Father has of which Yeshua who is the “image of the invisible God”, does not have?

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 04 2008,11:00)

    If Yeshua was a separate sentient being or “creation”, (for all things were created including the born), and he was involved in the creation as such then he would have surely been beside the Father…

    Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Isa 45:21

    That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that “there is none beside me“. I am the LORD, and there is none else. Isa 45:6

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 05 2008,18:41)

    WJ, this is your favorite translation of John 1:18, right?  This verse gives us two individuals in fellowship, not one and not three:


    That is correct. I am not a Modalist nor a Polytheist or Henotheist. John does mention 2 here that are One, and later mentions “another” who is also One with the Father and the Son.

    And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; John 14:16

    Mathew and Paul also mention the three…

    Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matt 28:19

    The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. 2 Cor 13:14

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 05 2008,18:41)
    No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known. John 1:18
    You also know that this verse is translated as the Son of God being the “only begotten God.”  This translation also speaks of two called God (and we know that the Father is the “one true God”), not one and not three:

    biblegateway Joh 1:18
    No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

    Yes, the NASB is practically the only version that uses the term “begotten god”.

    In light of John 1:1 the more accurate translation is the NET, NIV, ESV, ISV, CEV, NCV, NIRV, TNIV, found on BibleGateway.

    If the writer John wanted to convey Yeshua as a “begotten god”, then he would have started the chapter with…

    In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was the “begotten god”. But he didn’t.  

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 05 2008,18:41)
    Interesting that the NIV says that there is God the One and Only at the Father's side, again that makes two, not one and not three:


    John hadn’t gotten to John 14:16 yet.

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 05 2008,18:41)
    NIV
    biblegateway Joh 1:18
    No-one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

    Notice in that last translation that the Son is at the “side” of the Father.  So is He at the side of His Father as this says or is He not as Isa 45:21 says “there is none beside me.”


    Yes and we know that the fulness of all that is God is in Yeshua, and Yeshua is in the Father. They are One. Yeshua is at the Father’s side and the Father is at Yeshua’s side and yet they are within each other. They are “One Spirit! To be at the Fathers side means that Yeshua is equal to the Father in nature, not above him, nor beneath him but at his side. This is what John means when he writes “the Word was with God and the Word was God. They are inseparable in nature and power and Glory.
     

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 05 2008,18:41)

    We know that both are correct in their own context so there must be more to it than what meets the eye.  ???


    There is, and John 1:1 sets the tone.

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 05 2008,18:41)
    Now regarding created beings, when God made man, He made the first man out of dust, Adam, and the woman He made out of the first man's rib.  He started with something of a different nature and created something else, a first of its kind with a unique nature.


    If you are implying Adam is 100% human and Eve is something else, I disagree. I think you have nature and gender mixed up. God does not have a gender. Is there a scripture that says Yeshua is “somewhat of a different nature” than the Father?

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 05 2008,18:41)

    I believe that the firstborn of God came from God Himself who wasn't created and so the firstborn wasn't born from something of a created kind originally, later He humbled Himself and came in the likeness of man into a body prepared for Him that was from a created kind.

    LU


    I know what you believe, but you base your theology on ambiguity. There is no unambiguous scripture that says Yeshua had a beginning and especially that he was born or created from an asexual God. YHWH did not bring birth to a lesser god by whom he created all things and then ask us to bow down and worship him calling him our Great God and Savour.

    Your theology sounds too much like this…

    The Theogony (the birth of the Gods).

    The ancient Greek mankind, trying to explain certain metaphysical phenomena and anxieties, invented amazing myths concerning the Cosmogony (the creation of the World) and the Theogony (the birth of the Gods). Thus, the ancient Greek people created their own splendid, yet human-like world of gods, justifying the various abstract significances like Love, Birth or Death. Source.

    IMO

    WJ

    #109871

    Hi David

    Quote (david @ Oct. 06 2008,18:32)
    Therefore, it is all the more strange that insights of the Sahidic Coptic text of John 1:1 are largely ignored by popular Bible translators. Might that be because the Sahidic Coptic Gospel of John translates John 1:1c in a way that is unpopular in Christendom?

    I think that translating John 1:1c as “a god” also would be unpopular to the Hebrews that believed there is only one “True God”.

    Here is some information concerning the Sahidic Coptic translation.

    John 1:1 in the Sahidic Coptic Translation
    Several Jehovah's Witness apologists have claimed that the Sahidic Coptic translation of John 1:1 fully supports the rendering of the New World Translation (NWT): “and the Word was a god.”

    I have written on this topic here.

    Recently, Witness apologist Solomon Landers and an anonymous blogger calling himself “Memra” have created several blogs and websites touting the Sahidic Coptic translation. One would think that two apologists (assuming Memra is not Solomon) would only need to bring up two sites, but perhaps they are trying to create the impression of 'buzz' on the Internet.

    In any event, both apologists have attempted to respond to my comments. I have no doubt that others may soon jump on board, as Witnesses see the Sahidic translation – a translation dating back to at least the 3rd Century – as vindication of the NWT in a big way.

    Click here for more.

    WJ

    #109872
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 05 2008,01:58)
    Hi t8

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 04 2008,13:44)

    Is the Father the image of the invisible God?

    Yes, if the Father who is invisible makes himself visible. Would the “image” you see not be God? ???

    Again, you reduce Gods image to being less than God therefore creating a false image of God!

    WJ


    Let's put your words to the test.
    The test is scripture.

    1 Timothy 6:15-16
    15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
    16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

    So according to Paul, no one can see God and no one has seen God.

    So your bit about the invisible God being visible is incorrect.

    Jesus is the IMAGE of the invisible God. If Jesus were God, then according to Paul, Jesus would be invisible and no one could see him or has seen him.

    Wake up WJ, it is time for you to put away this folly.
    It is silly to teach that the invisible God is visible.
    I think you can see that it is a is a blatant contradiction.
    At least be honest with yourself if you can't admit it publicly.

    #109873
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 05 2008,03:10)
    Hi t8

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 04 2008,13:44)
    For 'us', there is one God the Father.

    Really? Then why do you say Yahshua is a “theos”, god?

    You said you have no problem calling Yeshua your “theos”, god!

    As the scriptures say satan is “the theos”, god of this world.

    Yet would you say satan is your “theos”, god?

    Yet you say that Yahshua is your “theos”, god!

    So to you there is two “theos”, gods, the Father and the son!

    WJ


    Yes the Father is the only and one true God.

    Some who are given his authority are called theos, but they are not the Most High Theos or true Theos. Rather they are representative of him who is the one true Theos.

    Your argument is not with me, but scripture. I am merely acknowledging a reality.

    Sorry WJ, but trying to be flash with your words has only exposed your conflict with scripture for all to see.

    Anyone can see that your words do not match up with the reality of the application of the word 'theos' in scripture.

    For anyone who doesn't know, WJ, cannot grasp the word 'theos' and all its uses. He thinks Jesus is God because 'theos' is applied to him, yet he isn't consistent with his false understanding because the Judges of Israel are also called 'theos' and at least we both agree that they are not God.

    Funny thing is I think he can understand the way the word spirit is used, in that we are taught that there is one Spirit, yet there are plenty of spirits including angels of God.

    I actually think it is just his bias or pride that blinds him, not an intellectual disability. But that is my opinion.

    1 Corinthians 12:9
    to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,

    Ephesians 4:4-6
    4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

    Hebrews 1:14
    Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

    Hebrews 12:9
    Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live!

    #109875
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Good posts brother T8,
    At the same time please say that there can be no other Gods besides our Father in this whole universe. Please don't be confused with the word 'theos' which is wrongly translated for princes and judges in greek. These so called gods can not be confused with our True God Father.

    Thanks and peace to you
    Adam

    #109877
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2008,21:31)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 05 2008,01:58)
    Hi t8

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 04 2008,13:44)

    Is the Father the image of the invisible God?

    Yes, if the Father who is invisible makes himself visible. Would the “image” you see not be God? ???

    Again, you reduce Gods image to being less than God therefore creating a false image of God!

    WJ


    Let's put your words to the test.
    The test is scripture.

    1 Timothy 6:15-16
    15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
    16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

    So according to Paul, no one can see God and no one has seen God.

    So your bit about the invisible God being visible is incorrect.

    Jesus is the IMAGE of the invisible God. If Jesus were God, then according to Paul, Jesus would be invisible and no one could see him or has seen him.

    Wake up WJ, it is time for you to put away this folly.
    It is silly to teach that the invisible God is visible.
    I think you can see that it is a is a blatant contradiction.
    At least be honest with yourself if you can't admit it publicly.


    But… here is the rest of the story… “The question why the Son is called “The Word” may be answered by saying that the term expresses both his nature and his office. The word is that which reveals. The Son is the εἰκών and ἀπαύγασμα of God, and therefore his word. It is his office to make God known to his creatures. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him. The Son, therefore, as the revealer of God, is the Word.”

    Hodge, C. Systematic Theology (504). Grand Rapids, MI: Christian Classics Ethereal Library.

    So according to all of Scripture, on this issue, no one has seen God, however, the Son has come as a declarer of God…. and the Son is, as the writer of Hebrews also states, the “exact representation of His nature”…. and, those who have seen Christ have seen the Father. For we have the very words of Christ Jesus Himself who said (John 14:9 ESV) Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”

    To see Jesus, is to see God. Therefore Paul's words in 1 Tim. must refer to God the Father, who is spirit, and the human eye cannot see “spirit”, and not to Jesus, further reinforcing the doctrine of the Trinity, as there is a distinction being made in reference to the Father, which humans are physically unable to see, and Jesus, who's role it was to make God visible to us.

    blessings,
    Ken

    #109878
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 06 2008,22:09)
    Good posts brother T8,
    At the same time please say that there can be no other Gods besides our Father in this whole universe. Please don't be confused with the word 'theos' which is wrongly translated for princes and judges in greek. These so called gods can not be confused with our True God Father.

    Thanks and peace to you
    Adam


    This such a great point… the Bible is so very clear… there is only 1 true God…. but as David and other JW's and other inconsistent Unitarians of various stripes admit, the bible refers to Jesus as being God, or, for the sake of argument, lets say “a god”… But… and here is the crucial point…. if there is only one true God, and Jesus is a god, then by resistless logic, by the application of the law of the excluded middle, Jesus simply HAS to be a false god!! Of course, that cannot be true! Its blasphemous to think so. Therefore, Jesus has to be, in some profound essential way, a part of the one true God's very nature, or as the ancient creed so well puts it, Jesus is:
    “God of God, Light of Light,
    very God of very God,
    begotten, not made,
    being of one substance with the Father;”.
    And this is exactly what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches. It resolves this biblical conundrum, and without it, the Bible explicitly contradicts itself by saying that there can only be 1 true God, and that Jesus is god or a god, yet Jesus is spoken of throughout the bible in a favorable sense, as the Messiah, as the Savior, as God's Son, etc… all positive favorable descriptions…. none of which would lead us to believe that Jesus is a false god. So Jesus is the true God, and the Trinity is what best explains the full counsel of Scripture.

    blessings,
    Ken

    #109879
    malcolm ferris
    Participant

    Been busy last few days…
    Hi WJ
    Some thoughts on some of your comments.

    Quote
    Really? Can you name one attribute scripturally that the Father has of which Yeshua who is the “image of the invisible God”, does not have?


    Only one?
    How about a few?
    Omnipotence – Jesus does not have omnipotence of himself – he was given it by GOD – after he rose from the grave. If it was an intrinsic part of himself he could not have it then not have it then have it again…
    Also he said himself that his Father was greater than him (Mt 14:28)
    Omniscience – Jesus did not know everything that the Father did (Mk 13:32) Now as with the previous point – he cannot have omniscience then lose it then gain it again.
    Jesus could die – GOD is eternal – therefore cannot die.
    Jesus could be a man – GOD is not a man.
    There is no such thing as an eternal son, and the son of God is not a second GOD.
    If Jesus ever was eternal then he could not die.
    The fact that he was GOD’s son meant he could not stay dead, GOD raised him up again.

    Quote
    There is no unambiguous scripture that says Yeshua had a beginning and especially that he was born or created from an asexual God.


    There is nothing ambiguous about the title son – it clearly denotes the following
    Offspring – and therefore the fact that Jesus (as all offspring of a parent do) had a beginning.
    Add to this the fact that he has a father. Everyone I know of that has a father had a beginning in that father.
    “you are MY Son today I have begotten you” – nothing ambiguous about that.
    What does the word beget mean? Especially when used in context to HIS Son.
    Asexual GOD? Sex and GOD are not relative at all – He can make children of the rocks – He can speak children even as He spoke the entire creation into existence.

    Quote
    YHWH did not bring birth to a lesser god by whom he created all things and then ask us to bow down and worship him calling him our Great God and Savior.


    A lesser GOD – there is but one GOD – one Source and creator of all.
    How HE chooses to do the creating is HIS sovereign prerogative.
    As T8 says Jesus being the image of the invisible GOD does not make him identical
    The meaning of the word image denotes this fact, an image is not the original it is an image.
    Blessings

    #109881
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    Quote (david @ Oct. 06 2008,18:32)
    WJ, what are your thoughts on the Sahidic Coptic translating of John 1:1 as “a god.”

    Much was made of it in the scholarly world when an apocryphal gospel written in Coptic, titled the “Gospel of Thomas,” was discovered in Egypt near Nag Hammadi in December 1945.
    Yet, after an initial welcome, the scholarly world has been strangely silent about an earlier and more significant find, the Sahidic Coptic translation of the canonical Gospel of John, which may date from about the late 2nd century C.E.–George William Horner, The Coptic version of the New Testament in the southern dialect, otherwise called Sahidic and Thebaic, 1911, pp. 398, 399

    This manuscript was introduced to the English-speaking world in 1911 through the work of [Reverend] George William Horner. Today, it is difficult even to find copies of Horner's translation of the Coptic canonical Gospel of John. It has been largely relegated to dusty library shelves, whereas copies of the “Gospel of Thomas” (in English with Coptic text) line the lighted shelves of popular bookstores.

    In the book, The Text of the New Testament (Eerdmans, 1987), Kurt and Barbara Aland, editors of critical Greek New Testament texts, state:
    “The Coptic New Testament is among the primary resources for the history of the New Testament text. Important as the Latin and Syriac versions may be, it is of far greater importance to know precisely how the text developed in Egypt.”
    (Page 200)

    The Sahidic Coptic text of the Gospel of John has been found to be in the Alexandrian text tradition of the well-regarded Codex Vaticanus (B) (Vatican 1209), one of the best of the early extant Greek New Testament manuscripts. Coptic John also shows affinities to the Greek Papyrus Bodmer XIV (p75) of the late 2nd/3rd century.–Aland, p. 91

    Concerning the Alexandrian text tradition, Dr. Bruce Metzger states that it “is usually considered to be the best text and the most faithful in preserving the original.”--Bruce M. Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, 2nd  edition, United Bible Societies, 1994, page 5

    Therefore, it is all the more strange that insights of the Sahidic Coptic text of John 1:1 are largely ignored by popular Bible translators. Might that be because the Sahidic Coptic Gospel of John translates John 1:1c in a way that is unpopular in Christendom? The Sahidic text renders John 1:1c as auw neunoute pe pshaje, clearly meaning literally “and was a god the Word.”Unlike koine Greek, Sahidic Coptic has both the definite article, p, and the indefinite article, u. The Coptic text of John 1:1b identifies the first mention of noute as pnoute, “the god,” i.e., God. This corresponds to the koine Greek text, wherein theos, “god,” has the definite article ho- at John 1:1b, i.e., “the Word was with [the] God.”

    The koine Greek text indicates the indefiniteness of the word theos in its second mention (John 1:1c), “god,” by omitting the definite article before it, because koine Greek had no indefinite article. But Coptic does have an indefinite article, and the text employs the indefinite article at John 1:1c. This makes it clear that in reading the original Greek text, the ancient Coptic translators understood it to say specifically that “the Word was a god.”

    The early Coptic Christians had a good understanding of both Greek and their own language, and their translation of John's koine Greek here is very precise and accurate. Because they actually employed the indefinite article before the word “god,” noute, the Sahidic Coptic translation of John 1:1c is more precise than the translation found in the Latin Vulgate, since Latin has neither a definite nor an indefinite article.

    It may be noted that the earliest Coptic translation was likely made before Trinitarianism gained a foothold in the churches of the 4th century. That may be one reason why the Coptic translators saw no need to violate the sense of John's Greek by translating it “the Word was God.”
    (I copied most of this info from a website that no longer exists.)

    Anyway, wondering what others think of the coptic translation?


    The “Sahidic Coptic has no neuter gender (thus most Greek neuter nouns are rendered as though they were masculine); Sahidic Coptic has only the active voice; Sahidic Coptic often renders the Greek imperfect and the aorist as perfects, etc. Early Coptic translations reflect a heavy use of Greek loan-words, but often with variations in spelling especially with regard to vowels. As B. Metzger observes, “Compared with Greek [Coptic] is much more wooden and lacking in suppleness and variety of expression” (1977: 107).
    Freedman, D. N. (1996, c1992). The Anchor Bible Dictionary (6:803). New York: Doubleday.

    Also… “If an early translator (third Century or earlier) understood John to have written “and the Word was a god,” this would appear to be evidence in favor of the NWT's rendering. But, as we shall see, appearances can be deceiving.

    The full citation of Horner's Coptic New Testament is as follows:

    The Coptic Version of the New Testament in the Southern Dialect
    otherwise called Sahidic and Thebaic, 4 Volumes (Oxford, 1911).

    Horner's English translation of John 1:1c is as follows:

    “…and [a] God was the Word.”

    Horner's critical apparatus defines the use of square brackets as
    follows: “Square brackets imply words used by the Coptic and not required by the English” (p. 376).

    How can Horner say that the indefinite article, while present in the
    Sahidic original, is not required in English?

    The answer lies in the usage of the Sahidic indefinite article
    itself. We may first note that, unlike English, the indefinite
    article is used in Sahidic with abstract nouns and nouns of
    substance (Walters, CC, An Elementary Coptic Grammar of the Sahidic Dialect, p. 12). An example of this usage may be found in John 1:16, which Horner translates:

    Because out of fulness we all of us took [a] life and [a] grace in
    place of [a] grace.

    More importantly, the indefinite article does not always denote
    class membership. It can also used to attribute qualities or
    characteristics (what in Greek grammars is called a “qualitative
    usage” [e.g., Wallace, p. 244]):
    Indefinite Article
    one specimen of the lexical class of … ;
    one specimen having the quality of the lexical class of … (Layton,
    Bentley, A Coptic Grammar With Chrestomathy and Glossary – Sahidic Dialect, 2nd edition, p. 43, “…” in original).

    Dr. Layton explains further:

    The indef. article is part of the Coptic syntactic pattern. This
    pattern predicates either a quality (we'd omit the English article
    in English: “is divine”) or an entity (“is a god”); the reader
    decides which reading to give it. The Coptic pattern does NOT
    predicate equivalence with the proper name “God”; in Coptic, God is always without exception supplied with the def. article. Occurrence of an anarthrous noun in this pattern would be odd.3

    So, the use of the indefinite article in the Sahidic does not
    necessarily mean that the Coptic translator understood John to have written “a god.” He was not equating the Word with the proper name God, but he could have understood John to be using theos in a qualitative sense, as many Greek scholars have argued. Dr. Layton says it is up to the reader to decide, but is there any indication in the immediate context to help us?

    I believe there is significant evidence in favor of a qualitative
    reading. In the Sahidic version of John 1:18b, the anarthrous theos in the Greek is translated with the defi
    nite article. Horner's
    translation reads as follows:

    “God, the only Son.”
    It would seem unlikely in the extreme that a translator would
    understand John to have designated the Word “a god” in John 1:1 and “the God” in John 1:18. Instead, his use of the definite article in verse 18 would make more sense if he understood John to be ascribing the qualities of Deity to the Word in John 1:1.

    Yours,
    Harold Holmyard”
    from http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2006-February/037663.html

    Lastly, while the website from which much of this info in the post asking for views on this Coptic version was taken may no longer exist, it appears to be lifted from a book that all anti Trintarians would be interested in reading and assimilating, as it takes on on Trinitarianism in general, and many popular Trinitarian scholars in particular… the info seems to be taken from a book by Patrick Navas entitled …. and Nick and all the others who are somewhat maniacally opposed to “tradition” will especially like this title…. “Divine Truth or Human Tradition?”, which, for those who may have missed the earlier thread, commits the informal fallacy of a false dichotomy, the section on this version of John in the Sahidic Coptic version/manuscript is apparently done by Solomon Landers, a prominent Jehovah's Witness apologist. Portions of the book can be found for free online at google books… and, again, for the specific issue concerning John 1:1 and the version found in the Sahidic Coptic manuscript, see:

    http://books.google.com/books?i….A311,M1

    blessings,
    Ken

    #109884
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi E,
    If the bible does not mention any trinity should we search for support for this theory elsewhere?
    Vain human intellectualism is a futile exercise is it not if truth is what we seek?

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