John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 1,481 through 1,500 (of 25,998 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #109106
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    Was he not born of Mary?
    Jb25
    4How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

    5Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.

    6How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

    He DID not sin.
    He OVERCAME sin in the flesh.
    He was a man, someone real we can follow.

    #109107
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote
    Scripture says he was like us in all ways..except sin.
    Do you disagree with scripture?
    It should be enough.

    If He was from heaven, He wasn't like us in every way. Perhaps scripture means He was like us in every way necessary.
    LU

    PS I gotta sleep sometime but before I go I have to confess that I have been playing a reverse role on here tonight. I don't mean most of what I said. I was just mimicking things that some on here say alot of which I disagree with. Sorry for any confusion.

    #109109
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    Have you matched his hair colour?
    Are you as tall?

    Why argue with scripture which says he was the same, except for sin?
    Are you greater than scripture?

    #109123
    malcolm ferris
    Participant

    Hi all – my 2 cents worth
    Jesus was a man – mortal – able to partake of death, able to be tempted.
    GOD is not able as immortal, eternal … to die, be tempted…
    SIN – GOD has no part in it, as I understand.
    what is SIN?
    Unbelief in GOD, as reflected in disobedience to HIS WORD.
    Any sin manifest (in disobedience) begins in unbelief/doubt of what GOD said.
    James tells us it is conceived in lust, lust for what? our own idea! which is manifest in our having our own way.
    Now the penalty of sin is death – separation from GOD, first in the body (1st death) then in the soul (2nd death)
    The transgression in the garden started the whole thing, and by Adam siding with a fallen vessel (Eve his wife) all of
    mankind was dragged down. [for Adam was not deceived as the woman was].
    So the curse of death was issued forth upon the rest of us through the womb and from birth.
    Hence the redeemer came through the womb (the woman's seed) not as one born with the same sin nature as us, but the same
    body subject to sin as us, for the body had been formed in the corruptible womb of a product of the fall (Mary).
    He was truly the Lamb without spot or blemish in my opinion, a perfect sacrifice for sin which required a blameless offering.
    The closest a man born of normal human procreation could hope for was shown forth in Abel who found favor with GOD, was
    without blame in his death (so much so that his blood cried out from the grave) yet his death did not do it.
    The uniquely begotten Son of GOD was begotten in this unique way for a very clear purpose, to be that propitiation for sin.
    No man, or woman born the regular way could possibly accomplish this.
    That is why in my opinion the heavenly DOVE could settle upon and remain on the earthly LAMB, there was a compatibility of
    nature that had not beforehand existed in this degree, so that the fullness of GOD could dwell in him.
    I believe it was his soul that was 100% compatible with the SPIRIT of GOD.
    Now we can aim for that, hope for that, should dream of it, but are doomed somewhat in our attempts to achieve it due to
    the fallen nature we received in our natural birth. As Paul explains very well in his letters.
    Sorry it was a long one, and it is as I said just my 2 cents worth (btw it is a very brief summary of a lot of very complex things that deserve far more words) ….

    #109135
    Tiffany
    Participant

    Are you not glad that Christ by God's mercy came down from Heaven and did the will of His Father and our Father, so we can have eternal Life. For that I am forever thankful to God and Christ for. Believe that Christ came and died for us. For by grace we are saved, it is a free gift from God. So no one can boast.
    Peace and Love Irene

    #109163
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MF,
    You say
    “Now the penalty of sin is death – separation from GOD, first in the body (1st death) then in the soul (2nd death)”

    We all know what the first death entails and sepatation from God is already manifest for most men
    Scripture tells us the Lake of fire is the second death.

    You say
    “Hence the redeemer came through the womb (the woman's seed) not as one born with the same sin nature as us, but the same..”

    The WOMAN in scripture is usually Israel.
    Scripture tells us he overcame sin in the flesh [Rom8].

    You say
    “No man, or woman born the regular way could possibly accomplish this. “

    In what way was his birth different?

    You say
    “That is why in my opinion the heavenly DOVE could settle upon and remain on the earthly LAMB, there was a compatibility of
    nature that had not beforehand existed in this degree, so that the fullness of GOD could dwell in him.”

    Was it his NATURE that made him a clean vessel or the fact that sin was not allowed to conceive and dwell in him?

    IF HIS NATURE WAS SUPERIOR TO OURS WE CANNOT FOLLOW HIM

    #109170
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 30 2008,02:53)
    Hi LU,
    Have you matched his hair colour?
    Are you as tall?

    Why argue with scripture which says he was the same, except for sin?
    Are you greater than scripture?


    Hi Nick,
    Hmmm! Was Jesus 5'5″ and blonde? I do ask my salon artist to match my haircolor to Jesus's. She says its the new rage :D

    #109171
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    He was like to us in every way relevant to God or scripture would not have said so.

    An unblemished lamb was sacrificed by the Jews.

    How perfect was the lamb chosen?

    #109172

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 01 2008,07:45)
    Hi MF,
    You say
    “Now the penalty of sin is death – separation from GOD, first in the body (1st death) then in the soul (2nd death)”

    We all know what the first death entails and sepatation from God is already manifest for most men
    Scripture tells us the Lake of fire is the second death.

    You say
    “Hence the redeemer came through the womb (the woman's seed) not as one born with the same sin nature as us, but the same..”

    The WOMAN in scripture is usually Israel.
    Scripture tells us he overcame sin in the flesh [Rom8].

    You say
    “No man, or woman born the regular way could possibly accomplish this. “

    In what way was his birth different?  

    You say
    “That is why in my opinion the heavenly DOVE could settle upon and remain on the earthly LAMB, there was a compatibility of
    nature that had not beforehand existed in this degree, so that the fullness of GOD could dwell in him.”

    Was it his NATURE that made him a clean vessel or the fact that sin was not allowed to conceive and dwell in him?

    IF HIS NATURE WAS SUPERIOR TO OURS WE CANNOT FOLLOW HIM


    NH

    God's nature is superior to us! Can we follow God?

    ???

    Your argument is a straw.

    Yeshua is the Lamb of God who was perfect and without blemish or the stain of sin.

    WJ

    #109173
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 30 2008,02:49)
    Hi LU,
    Was he not born of Mary?
    Jb25
    4How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

    5Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.

    6How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

    He DID not sin.
    He OVERCAME sin in the flesh.
    He was a man, someone real we can follow.


    Hi Nick,
    So what does “born holy” mean to you?

    Luke 1:35

    35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
    KJV

    LU

    #109174
    malcolm ferris
    Participant

    I knew I put too much in that one paragraph…

    Quote
    Hi MF,
    You say
    “Now the penalty of sin is death – separation from GOD, first in the body (1st death) then in the soul (2nd death)”

    We all know what the first death entails and sepatation from God is already manifest for most men
    Scripture tells us the Lake of fire is the second death.


    Yes that is where the soul will perish – death in the flesh does not annihilate the soul, as is evident in scripture.
    Jesus went and preached to souls in prison….
    Of course the destination and outcome of the souls is being decided on earth in our mortal existence.
    The rewards (or punishment/wages) follow and are given according to what we did when faced with the Truth.

    Quote
    You say
    “Hence the redeemer came through the womb (the woman's seed) not as one born with the same sin nature as us, but the same..”

    The WOMAN in scripture is usually Israel.
    Scripture tells us he overcame sin in the flesh [Rom8].


    Yes the woman is often portrayed as a symbolic type of Israel, also of the Church.
    Sin came upon man through Adam who was not deceived
    Salvation came upon man through Jesus Christ who was not deceived either.
    One came by disobedience to GOD's WORD.
    The other by obedience.
    My point in that statement was that as the woman was instrumental in the fall and with this came a specific curse
    for her.
    So in the birth of Jesus a woman was instrumental in the redemption and with this came a specific blessing.
    The birth of Jesus in my opinion was a direct answer to the promise in Genesis – he was the woman's seed.
    Mary was the woman in question and no man had anything to do with it.
    IMO

    Quote
    You say
    “No man, or woman born the regular way could possibly accomplish this. “

    In what way was his birth different?  


    To the degree that Jesus did not need to get born again for he was born right the first time, with the right nature.
    Hence his complete compatibility with the SPIRIT of GOD.
    IMO

    Quote
    You say
    “That is why in my opinion the heavenly DOVE could settle upon and remain on the earthly LAMB, there was a compatibility of
    nature that had not beforehand existed in this degree, so that the fullness of GOD could dwell in him.”

    Was it his NATURE that made him a clean vessel or the fact that sin was not allowed to conceive and dwell in him?


    As he said himself it is the flesh that is weak and the spirit that is willing. His spirit was willing to face even death on the cross
    in order to obey GOD. As he said in the garden – not my will but your will be done.
    IMO

    Quote
    IF HIS NATURE WAS SUPERIOR TO OURS WE CANNOT FOLLOW HIM


    not without a rebirth. That is why he did not make it optional
    You must be born again – how else are we to receive a change of nature, except the soul be born a new
    creature by the SPIRIT of GOD?

    #109175
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 01 2008,08:16)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 01 2008,07:45)
    Hi MF,
    You say
    “Now the penalty of sin is death – separation from GOD, first in the body (1st death) then in the soul (2nd death)”

    We all know what the first death entails and sepatation from God is already manifest for most men
    Scripture tells us the Lake of fire is the second death.

    You say
    “Hence the redeemer came through the womb (the woman's seed) not as one born with the same sin nature as us, but the same..”

    The WOMAN in scripture is usually Israel.
    Scripture tells us he overcame sin in the flesh [Rom8].

    You say
    “No man, or woman born the regular way could possibly accomplish this. “

    In what way was his birth different?  

    You say
    “That is why in my opinion the heavenly DOVE could settle upon and remain on the earthly LAMB, there was a compatibility of
    nature that had not beforehand existed in this degree, so that the fullness of GOD could dwell in him.”

    Was it his NATURE that made him a clean vessel or the fact that sin was not allowed to conceive and dwell in him?

    IF HIS NATURE WAS SUPERIOR TO OURS WE CANNOT FOLLOW HIM


    NH

    God's nature is superior to us! Can we follow God?

    ???

    Your argument is a straw.

    Yeshua is the Lamb of God who was perfect and without blemish or the stain of sin.

    WJ


    Hi wJ,
    WE are not asked to follow God.
    We are given a human mediator to follow.
    Empowered from above as we all can be if we seek.

    #109177
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 01 2008,08:17)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 30 2008,02:49)
    Hi LU,
    Was he not born of Mary?
    Jb25
    4How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

    5Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.

    6How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

    He DID not sin.
    He OVERCAME sin in the flesh.
    He was a man, someone real we can follow.


    Hi Nick,
    So what does “born holy” mean to you?

    Luke 1:35

    35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
    KJV

    LU


    Hi LU,
    Luke 4:34
    Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.

    Jesus is the Holy one of God, holy like the holy angels and holy prophets and holy place and holy garments etc- all vessels chosen for service to God.

    #109178
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MF,
    You say he was not reborn of water and the Spirit at the Jordan
    but we must follow him and do so?

    #109188
    malcolm ferris
    Participant

    Yes Nick
    That would be one point of difference we have.
    I do not believe Jesus needed to repent or be baptized or be reborn.
    He was baptized because he represented the sacrificial lamb, which had to be washed before presentation.
    He told John the Baptist to suffer it to be so, because in this way all the righteous requirements of the Law were satisfied.
    John's baptism was not unto rebirth anyway it was unto repentance, which is why Paul commanded those he found at
    Ephesus who had been baptized in John's baptism to be re-baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
    Hence John's own words –

    'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.'


    IMO

    #109189
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MF,
    He was washed to fulfill the demands of scriptural righteousness not ignoring the one sent before.
    But he was empowered for service by baptism of the Spirit of God immediately manifesting in power.

    #109190

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 01 2008,08:28)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 01 2008,08:16)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 01 2008,07:45)
    Hi MF,
    You say
    “Now the penalty of sin is death – separation from GOD, first in the body (1st death) then in the soul (2nd death)”

    We all know what the first death entails and sepatation from God is already manifest for most men
    Scripture tells us the Lake of fire is the second death.

    You say
    “Hence the redeemer came through the womb (the woman's seed) not as one born with the same sin nature as us, but the same..”

    The WOMAN in scripture is usually Israel.
    Scripture tells us he overcame sin in the flesh [Rom8].

    You say
    “No man, or woman born the regular way could possibly accomplish this. “

    In what way was his birth different?  

    You say
    “That is why in my opinion the heavenly DOVE could settle upon and remain on the earthly LAMB, there was a compatibility of
    nature that had not beforehand existed in this degree, so that the fullness of GOD could dwell in him.”

    Was it his NATURE that made him a clean vessel or the fact that sin was not allowed to conceive and dwell in him?

    IF HIS NATURE WAS SUPERIOR TO OURS WE CANNOT FOLLOW HIM


    NH

    God's nature is superior to us! Can we follow God?

    ???

    Your argument is a straw.

    Yeshua is the Lamb of God who was perfect and without blemish or the stain of sin.

    WJ


    Hi wJ,
    WE are not asked to follow God.
    We are given a human mediator to follow.
    Empowered from above as we all can be if we seek.


    NH

    Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matt 5:48

    Be ye therefore “followers of God”, as dear children;… Eph 5:1

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 01 2008,08:28)
    WE are not asked to follow God.


    So you know more than Yeshua and Paul? ???

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 01 2008,08:28)

    We are given a human mediator to follow.


    So you just follow a mere man, an arm of flesh?

    Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that “trusteth in man”, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. Jer 17:5

    Yahshua says you cannot have 2 masters.

    WJ

    #109191
    malcolm ferris
    Participant

    He was empowered for service by the Spirit of God as is any servant of GOD.
    In times past principally prophets paralleled this being anointed ones or Christ's
    Jesus was not merely a prophet, an anointed one but THE Christ – the one anointed not with GOD's SPIRIT in a measure
    like prophets of old or saints of the new, he had the SPIRIT of GOD without measure, all the fullness of GOD dwelt in him
    upon his baptism.
    It is a difference between one anointed momentarily for a certain purpose and service of GOD and he who was fully
    anointed not with a baptism but with the whole fountain of LIFE in him and flowing out from him.
    We in our measure by the baptism of the Holy Spirit can seek to emulate this.
    We can become tributaries of the great LIFE stream as we are branches from the vine…

    Also we need to consider that there are differences of measure and purpose in the administration of the Spirit of GOD amongst the many membered body of Christ.
    All are baptized with the Holy spirit – this is required for a rebirth.
    But not all hold the same offices or have the same anointing to minister (Rom 4) yet all have the same Spirit. (1 Cor 12)
    Without this deposit of faith we cannot even receive the Holy Spirit when it is ministered to us by these various means given.
    IMO

    #109198
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    mf………..truly stated . It's not so much the vine as what flowing through the vine , GOD's Spirit.

    peace to you and yours…………………..gene

    #109201
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WJ,
    The works and attitudes and behaviours of Christ were of the Spirit of God so in that sense the following of Jesus involves letting the Spirit of God Himself produce that good fruit in us.

Viewing 20 posts - 1,481 through 1,500 (of 25,998 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account