John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 14,721 through 14,740 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #362365
    david
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 21 2013,10:41)

    Quote (david @ Nov. 21 2013,04:48)

    Quote
    A certain scholar has recently advanced the hypothesis that the indefinite article as used in John 1:1 on this Coptic language translation has a “qualitative meaning” as if saying the word was a (one) theos.

    –kerwin

    Was it WJ?

    He's not really a scholar. 🙂

    So, the father is “God” and the word is “a one god,” according to the scholar. Ok.


    David,

    I quoted the relevant part of Wikipedia that gave the scholars' name and a summary of their opinion. Their names are Brian J. Wright and Tim Ricchuiti .


    Hey kerwin. What specifically did you Wikipedia to find it. I've checked a couple articles.

    #362366
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 21 2013,07:54)
    kerwin,

    ill repeat what i said. the version said the Word was God.
    the version also said the Word was divine BUT NO VERSION SAYS GOD IS LIKE HIS WORD IN JOHN1.1

    you said GOD is like his word. now im asking you where can you find that in john 1.1.

    we are now at page 1047 but i  still get no answer from you boy


    Jammin,

    Any version that can be interpreted to be true will do if you understand the truth.

    So do you believe both God and his word are divine.

    #362367
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (david @ Nov. 21 2013,08:27)

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 21 2013,10:41)

    Quote (david @ Nov. 21 2013,04:48)

    Quote
    A certain scholar has recently advanced the hypothesis that the indefinite article as used in John 1:1 on this Coptic language translation has a “qualitative meaning” as if saying the word was a (one) theos.

    –kerwin

    Was it WJ?

    He's not really a scholar. 🙂

    So, the father is “God” and the word is “a one god,” according to the scholar. Ok.


    David,

    I quoted the relevant part of Wikipedia that gave the scholars' name and a summary of their opinion. Their names are Brian J. Wright and Tim Ricchuiti .


    Hey kerwin.  What specifically did you Wikipedia to find it.  I've checked a couple articles.


    David,

    Quote
    In a recent issue of The Journal of Theological Studies Brian J. Wright and Tim Ricchuiti[24] reason that the indefinite article in the Coptic translation, of John 1:1, has a qualitative meaning. Many such occurrences for qualitative nouns are identified in the Coptic New Testament, including 1 John 1:5 and 1 John 4:8. Moreover the indefinite article is used to refer to God in Deuteronomy 4:31 and Malachi 2:10.

    It is in the grammar section of wikipedia's entry for John 1:1.

    #362368
    kerwin
    Participant

    David,

    I found this quote on a forum and if a true quote then those scholars are not really saying anything different than can be derived by the translations of some.

    Quote
    “We propose that the best way to take the indefinite article in John 1:1c is as an attempt by the Copts to interpret the anarthrous θε?ς descriptively/qualitatively. As a result, they interpreted and translated John 1.1c to mean that ‘the Word' possesses the same qualities as ‘the God of the Bible'.”

    My source: Jehovah-Witness.net

    #362369
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 21 2013,07:49)

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 20 2013,15:40)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 20 2013,06:17)

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 18 2013,15:24)
    Jammin,

    I already did as you requested and you have failed to prove that the clause “the word is God” does not mean the word and God share the characteristic of being divine.


    Kerwin,

    What if it said, “and the Word was Abraham Lincoln”?

    Would you believe that the Word actually WAS Abraham Lincoln – as was clearly stated?  Or would you pretend that the words, and the Word WAS Abraham Lincoln” only meant that the word “wore a top hat like Abraham Lincoln”?

    Because that's what you're doing here.  You're PRETENDING that  “x WAS y” really means “x WAS LIKE y”, right?  As if the word “WAS” really means “WAS LIKE”, or “SHARED ATTRIBUTES WITH”, right?

    Perhaps you could show an example where someone is said to BE a particular entity, but it really means that they are merely LIKE that other entity.


    Jammin,

    This is a conversation with Jammin because of his lack of communication skills.   I actually discovered something after I started the conversation with him but he just doesn't advance the conversation to where I feel it is a good time to cover it.  I do cover it with Pierre.

    The hypothesis I was working on is that saying the word is God is similar to saying that God is love with the difference being that instead of meaning God is the attribute of the word, it means God and the word share the same attribute; that of being divine.  I get the divine from the fact that Koine Greek calls things that belong to God, God and the translation that is rendered the “the word is divine”

    What I discovered due to inspiration from God using conversation with Pierre is that all that is useless conversation since it adds nothing to the conversation but satisfying my own curiosity about Koine Greek.

    The bottom line is that experts already agree that one meaning of theos is:

    Quote
        refers to the things of God
       his counsels, interests, things due to him

    whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way

    The why it means this is not necessary to know and so is academic.

    Jammin is at a point when he has not answered the question whether both God and his word are both divine which is what I am waiting for him to do.   He even seemed to deny that they are both divine at one point. I think it was a reaction and not something he thought through so I am waiting for his answer to my question to see what he really meant.

    I covered some of this in my conversation with him already.

    Note: theos


    im still waiting for the version kerwin.
    im not asking for your explanation


    Jammin,

    Feel free to read my explanation instead of choosing to read the explanations of those that tell your itching ears what they want to hear.  

    As to the one I gave to Mike it includes my confession that I got carried away with useless investigation instead of sticking to the bottom line.

    The translation the word is divine is all I need because even you should know God's utterance is divine.  

    I am not here to tell you what your itching ears want to hear.

    #362372
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 21 2013,08:59)
    David,

    I found this quote on a forum and if a true quote then those scholars are not really saying anything different than can be derived by the translations of some.

    Quote
    “We propose that the best way to take the indefinite article in John 1:1c is as an attempt by the Copts to interpret the anarthrous θε?ς descriptively/qualitatively. As a result, they interpreted and translated John 1.1c to mean that ‘the Word' possesses the same qualities as ‘the God of the Bible'.”

    My source: Jehovah-Witness.net


    K

    Would not this interpretation fit nicely with what Paul says in Clo:1:15-21 were he says that he his the image of God his father ,

    I think so,

    #362375
    kerwin
    Participant

    T,

    Yes, I agree that God's utterances is the image of God and Jesus is the result of the that utterance made flesh.

    #362376
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 21 2013,12:21)
    T,

    Yes,  I agree that God's utterances is the image of God and Jesus is the result of the that utterance made flesh.


    K

    What you mean Utterances ???

    #362377
    kerwin
    Participant

    T,

    The knowledge and wisdom of God.

    #362378
    terraricca
    Participant

    K

    Could you explain to me ,how can words,expressions,ect

    Can be the image of God Jehovah ???

    Because that would mean that God himself his :a word,an expression,A discourse ,A declaration,A observation ect is that the real God of the Bible that was Paul explaining to the Clossians ???

    And is that the description of the God of Abraham,Issac and Jacobs ??? Could you show me that it is so ???

    I like you to answer me honestly

    #362379
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 21 2013,12:41)
    T,

    The knowledge and wisdom of God.


    K

    But utterance does not stand for wisdom of God and so his the knowledge of God,

    If you say it does then you have to accept that foolishness ,and men wisdom also his utterances,and so annulled all ,

    So the word utterance is just a word meaning words ,that are expressed ,

    #362380
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 21 2013,12:41)
    T,

    The knowledge and wisdom of God.


    K

    Now we know that utterance means words that are said !

    And we know that the wisdom and knowledge of God the creator DO NOT HAVE TO BE SAID :

    Just like you watch a chess game championship ,NO ONE TALKS NO ONE MOVES but the knowledge and wisdom of them both is active at is best ,

    So no utterance there right ???

    #362385
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 21 2013,17:55)

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 21 2013,12:41)
    T,

    The knowledge and wisdom of God.


    K

    Now we know that utterance means words that are said !

    And we know that the wisdom and knowledge of God the creator DO NOT HAVE TO BE SAID :

    Just like you watch a chess game championship ,NO ONE TALKS NO ONE MOVES but the knowledge and wisdom of them both is active at is best ,

    So no utterance there right ???


    T.

    You dont know God,its so obvious.

    Genesis 1:3 ***And God said***,
    Let there be light: and there was light.

    Genesis 1:6 ***And God said***,
    Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

    wakeup.

    #362393
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 21 2013,07:27)

    Quote (942767 @ Nov. 21 2013,02:05)

    Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 18 2013,06:25)
    Marty

    Jn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
    Jn 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
    Jn 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

    who is it that John talks about ???(both Johns )


    Hi Pierre:

    It is not the Word that dwelt among us in that scripture.  The Word or Logos of God was made flesh or a human being, and it was him that dwelt among us, and it was at his ministry that we beheld him as of the only begotten of the Father full of grace and truth.

    I also will post the following scriptures which may help in understanding John 1:

    Quote

    Eph 3:9

    And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    Eph 3:10

    To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

    Eph 3:11

    According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

    Quote

    Eph 1:3

    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    Eph 1:4

    According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    Eph 1:5

    Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    Eph 1:6

    To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

    Eph 1:7

    In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    Eph 1:9

    Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

    Eph 1:10

    That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

    Eph 1:11

    In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    so THE WORD ” IS JESUS CHRIST ACCORDING TO ALL THOSE SCRIPTURES ;RIGHT ???


    No, He is not the Word, but the Word was spoken through him. The flesh or the body is not the Word. It is what is done in the body that defines who the person is. He obeyed the Word of God unto death on the cross, and God spoke to humanity through him by that same Word.

    Quote

    Hbr 1:1

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    Hbr 1:2

    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
    Hbr 1:3

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #362394
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 21 2013,08:12)

    Quote (942767 @ Nov. 20 2013,14:05)
    Hi Pierre:

    It is not the Word that dwelt among us in that scripture.  The Word or Logos of God was made flesh or a human being, and it was him that dwelt among us…………


    In Marty's eagerness to ensure that the Word isn't Jesus, he must read 1:14 as follows:

    The Word became [in] flesh, and [the flesh person the Word came to be in] dwelled among us with the glory of God's only begotten.

    Unfortunately for his imagined doctrine, none of those bracketed words are actually in John 1:14.

    Pierre, we can only lead the horses to water.  We can't force them to drink it.'

    Marty, if 1:14 starts off identifying the subject as “The Word”, and then doesn't change subjects, but uses personal pronouns like “his” to keep referring to the same subject – then the whole verse is about “The Word”.

    In fact, “The Word” continues to be the subject of John's teaching until verse 17 – where that same Word is identified as “Jesus Christ”.


    Hi Mike:

    That is right, none of the bracketed words are in the scriptures, and that is not what I said.

    The scripture states that “the Word was made flesh”, and so not now it is not “the Word”  but the flesh or the human being that dwells among us at that point.  The Word or Logos is that which God has spoken and it pertains to Jesus coming in the flesh.

    Quote

    Jhn 1:17

    For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

    God spoke to humanity through that human being in his ministry on earth.

    Quote

    Jhn 12:45

    And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

    Jhn 12:46

    I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

    Jhn 12:47

    And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

    Jhn 12:48

    He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    Jhn 12:49

    For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

    Jhn 12:50

    And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #362395
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=terraricca,Nov. 20 2013,03:27][/quote]

    Quote
    men his flesh ,and soul ;the fact that he as to breath through his nostrils this is the way he was created just like all the mammals ,

    Terraricca,

    WRONG!

    MAN WAS CREATED IN THE IMAGE GOD , NOT LIKE ALL MAMMALS

    HE NEVER HAD FLESH AND BLOOD!

    SIN TRANSFORMED HIM INTO A FLESH AND BLOOD MAMMAL! SATAN’S ABODE! AND BECAME THE WORST, AND THE MOST FILTHY MAMMAL FROM BIRTH!

    EVEN A CHIC IS MORE HONOURED THEN MAN ON BIRTH!

    SHE JUMPS, WITH JOY!

    MAN CANNOT EVEN STAND UP!

    SHE SINGS WITH JOY!

    MAN CRIES WITH DISAPPOINTMENT!

    SHE IS FULLY CLOTHED!

    MAN IS FULLY NAKED, AND DIRTY!

    TODAY A CHIC IS MORE OF A VALUE IN HER MOTHER’S BELLY THEN MAN IS!

    HE IS GOD’S IMAGE ONLY BECAUSE GOD BECAME MAN!

    IN JESUS CHRIST!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #362397
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=terraricca,Nov. 21 2013,07:24][/quote]

    Quote
    all those questions are totally irrelevant to know or to understand for the truth of God being understood

    Terraricca,

    THERE'S ONLY ONE WAY OUT!

    CHANGE YOUR PERSPECTIVE REGARDING JESUS CHRIST!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #362399
    david
    Participant

    Quote

    Quote
    In a recent issue of The Journal of Theological Studies Brian J. Wright and Tim Ricchuiti[24] reason that the indefinite article in the Coptic translation, of John 1:1, has a qualitative meaning. Many such occurrences for qualitative nouns are identified in the Coptic New Testament, including 1 John 1:5 and 1 John 4:8. Moreover the indefinite article is used to refer to God in Deuteronomy 4:31 and Malachi 2:10.

    DEUT 4:31
    “for Jehovah thy God is a merciful God; he will not fail thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.”

    Don't most bibles have an indefinite article to refer to god in DEUT 4:31? Malachi 2:10 asks: “has not one God created us?” Again, it's descriptive. Both DEUT and Malachi are places where it's understandable to have an “a” in Coptic or Even English.

    I fail to see the point of mentioning that the Coptic has an indefinite article in these two places.

    #362401
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Nov. 21 2013,20:52)

    Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 21 2013,07:27)

    Quote (942767 @ Nov. 21 2013,02:05)

    Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 18 2013,06:25)
    Marty

    Jn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
    Jn 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
    Jn 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

    who is it that John talks about ???(both Johns )


    Hi Pierre:

    It is not the Word that dwelt among us in that scripture.  The Word or Logos of God was made flesh or a human being, and it was him that dwelt among us, and it was at his ministry that we beheld him as of the only begotten of the Father full of grace and truth.

    I also will post the following scriptures which may help in understanding John 1:

    Quote

    Eph 3:9

    And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    Eph 3:10

    To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

    Eph 3:11

    According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

    Quote

    Eph 1:3

    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    Eph 1:4

    According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    Eph 1:5

    Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    Eph 1:6

    To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

    Eph 1:7

    In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    Eph 1:9

    Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

    Eph 1:10

    That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

    Eph 1:11

    In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    so THE WORD ” IS JESUS CHRIST ACCORDING TO ALL THOSE SCRIPTURES ;RIGHT ???


    No, He is not the Word, but the Word was spoken through him.  The flesh or the body is not the Word.  It is what is done in the body that defines who the person is.  He obeyed the Word of God unto death on the cross, and God spoke to humanity through him by that same Word.

    Quote

    Hbr 1:1

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    Hbr 1:2

    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
    Hbr 1:3

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    Quote
    No, He is not the Word, but the Word was spoken through him. The flesh or the body is not the Word. It is what is done in the body that defines who the person is. He obeyed the Word of God unto death on the cross, and God spoke to humanity through him by that same Word.

    Hbr 1:1

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    Hbr 1:2

    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
    Hbr 1:3

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    Paul refers to the important in the difference between the time of the prophets and the last days in the time of Jesus the son of God ,

    Jn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    now you think that the words that where said by the prophets is less important than the words that Christ said right ???

    your are wrong ,you have mist the truth ,and I getting tire to say and show the scriptures to the truth of God ,over and over again ,it seems you do not understand the meaning of them.

    #362402
    terraricca
    Participant

    charles

    Quote
    WRONG!

    MAN WAS CREATED IN THE IMAGE GOD , NOT LIKE ALL MAMMALS

    HE NEVER HAD FLESH AND BLOOD!

    SIN TRANSFORMED HIM INTO A FLESH AND BLOOD MAMMAL! SATAN’S ABODE! AND BECAME THE WORST, AND THE MOST FILTHY MAMMAL FROM BIRTH!

    Ge 1:25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

    Ge 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
    Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image,
    in the image of God he created him;
    male and female he created them.
    Ge 1:28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
    Ge 1:29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth

    Ge 1:31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.

    in verse 26 who are the “OUR”

    I know you have your own understanding beside the scriptures ,

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