John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 14,541 through 14,560 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #360424
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 28 2013,09:43)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 28 2013,10:45)
    marty

    Quote
    Job 1:6 is speaking about angels, not men who have been born again, and have the power to become the sons of God through Jesus.

    look at the HEBREW ORIGINAL it says ” SONS OF GOD” I believe the original Hebrew version ;

    KJV
    Now there was a day
    when the sons
    of God
    came
    (8799) to present
    (8692) themselves before the LORD
    _, and Satan


    Hi Pierre:

    I don't know what dictionary or other reference that you are using to get your understanding.

    03117 is not the number that Strong's concordance uses for this definition.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    I'm not sure who's claiming what here, but the “sons of God” in Job 1:6 and 2:1 are spirit sons of God, ie: angels.

    #360425
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 28 2013,09:58)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 28 2013,04:09)
    :)  Okay Marty.  But did you notice that EVERYTHING said about “the Word” in John 1 is also said in scripture about “Jesus”?  Because that is what I thought you would see from my post.

    Marty, consider the last words of 1:14……. “full of grace and truth”.  Now consider the exact moment in John 1 where John stops calling this person “the Word” and starts calling him “Jesus”.  (Follow the words “grace” and “truth”):

    16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace……..

    At this point, “the Word” is still the subject of the teaching, and the name “Jesus” has not yet been written.  So at this point, we know that grace came to us through “the Word”.  

    DO YOU AGREE SO FAR?  YES or NO?

    Now watch:

    17 ……grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

    Do you agree that verse 16 says grace came from “the Word”?  YES or NO?

    And do you agree that verse 17 says grace came from “Jesus Christ”?  YES or NO?

    Now look back to verse 14:  We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Verse 14 is written about the one that had so far only been identified as “the Word”.  Do you agree?  And this “Word” came FROM the Father, full of grace and truth.  Do you agree?

    1.  Is the Word actually the Father Himself?  Or did the Word come FROM the Father?  Which one?

    2.  Are you able to see that “grace and truth” came from the Word?  And are you able to see that “grace and truth” came from Jesus Christ?


    Hi Mike:

    Jesus was born into this world a man child and the scriptures state:


    I agree 100% that Jesus was born into this world as a “man child” (by which strange language I assume you mean “human child”).

    So we both agree on that, and therefore it never needs to be brought up again in one of our discussions, right?  (Because it is a diversion, and not any kind of ANSWER to all the points I made in the above post.)

    So let's go more slowly:

    John 1:14
    The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Forget all the other words for a minute, and focus only on the big ones.  Can you and I agree that “the Word” came to us “full of grace and truth”?

    #360427
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 29 2013,04:41)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 28 2013,09:43)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 28 2013,10:45)
    marty

    Quote
    Job 1:6 is speaking about angels, not men who have been born again, and have the power to become the sons of God through Jesus.

    look at the HEBREW ORIGINAL it says ” SONS OF GOD” I believe the original Hebrew version ;

    KJV
    Now there was a day
    when the sons
    of God
    came
    (8799) to present
    (8692) themselves before the LORD
    _, and Satan


    Hi Pierre:

    I don't know what dictionary or other reference that you are using to get your understanding.

    03117 is not the number that Strong's concordance uses for this definition.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    I'm not sure who's claiming what here, but the “sons of God” in Job 1:6 and 2:1 are spirit sons of God, ie: angels.


    Mike

    I wanted to point out to Marty ;that Christ is called THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD ;AND YET THEIR ARE MANY SONS OF GOD like it says in Job 1;6 and so I ask why would that claim be true ;THAT CHRIST IS THE ONLY SON OF GOD ???

    #360429
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 29 2013,01:49)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 25 2013,12:17)


    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 25 2013,12:17)


    Quote
    A soul is composed of spirit but the Spirit is not the soul.  The Spirit is something to be lived by and the soul does the living.  

    Kerwin,

    ARE YOU REFERRING TO JESUS?

    NOW READ AGAIN TO MAKE SURE WHAT YOU ARE CLAIMING:  

    JEREMIAH 32:41 And I will rejoice over them, when I shall do them good: and I will plant them in this land in truth,

    WITH MY WHOLE HEART,AND WITH ALL MY SOUL. BOTH JESUS'

    NOW, ARE YOU CLAIMING THAT THE FATHER'S SOUL AND HEART ARE LIKE YOURS!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Charles,

    A strange way of looking at JEREMIAH 32:41.   We are to love God with all of our heart and soul but that does not mean our heart and soul are physically located with him.  In the same way God's heart and soul is not physically located with us.  

    A soul is the essential being whether it is God's soul, an angel's soul, a human soul, or a soul of a beast.  God is not one of his creations nor is a beast a human.

    God's spirit is the spirit he lives by and he sends it to those that believe in Jesus' name so that it will write his word on their minds and place it in their inward self.

    A person is instructed to live by God's spirit not by God's soul.  Jesus is the way to obtain and live by God's spirit.

    #360431
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 28 2013,17:22)
    Mike

    I wanted to point out to Marty ;that Christ is called THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD ;AND YET THEIR ARE MANY SONS OF GOD like it says in Job 1;6 and so I ask why would that claim be true ;THAT CHRIST IS THE ONLY SON OF GOD


    Yes,

    Jesus is definitely a son of God in a way that none other is a son of God. There is a reason that Jesus is the ONLY one to be called God's ONLY begotten Son.

    #360446
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 29 2013,05:35)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 28 2013,17:22)
    Mike

    I wanted to point out to Marty ;that Christ is called THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD ;AND YET THEIR ARE MANY SONS OF GOD like it says in Job 1;6 and so I ask why would that claim be true ;THAT CHRIST IS THE ONLY SON OF GOD


    Yes,

    Jesus is definitely a son of God in a way that none other is a son of God.  There is a reason that Jesus is the ONLY one to be called God's ONLY begotten Son.


    Mike

    Yes he is surely the very first of God creation and so his only begotten son ,while all others angels or men are called sons by affiliation ;like IF FAITHFUL TO GOD ;ARE SONS OF GOD '

    FAITHFUL AND SINLESS MEN ARE ALSO CALLED SONS OF MEN (THIS REDUCE THE NUMBER TO TWO BUT COULD BE EXTENDED )
    Jn 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

    SATAN BEING A REBEL ANGEL AND HIS ANGELS ALSO DO NOT SEEM TO BE GOD'S SONS BUT SATANS SONS BECAUSE HIS FATHERHOOD IN SIN;

    #360454
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 29 2013,10:35)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 28 2013,17:22)
    Mike

    I wanted to point out to Marty ;that Christ is called THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD ;AND YET THEIR ARE MANY SONS OF GOD like it says in Job 1;6 and so I ask why would that claim be true ;THAT CHRIST IS THE ONLY SON OF GOD


    Yes,

    Jesus is definitely a son of God in a way that none other is a son of God.  There is a reason that Jesus is the ONLY one to be called God's ONLY begotten Son.


    Mike B.

    I agree:
    Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.
    For he was born *BY THE WILL OF GOD*.
    Billions of angels are also the sons of God,but not born.
    The were created spirit creatures.
    Jesus was born in the flesh,*by the will of God*.
    HE IS MY BELOVED SON;HEAR YE HIM.

    wakeup.

    #360458
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 29 2013,09:24)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 29 2013,10:35)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 28 2013,17:22)
    Mike

    I wanted to point out to Marty ;that Christ is called THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD ;AND YET THEIR ARE MANY SONS OF GOD like it says in Job 1;6 and so I ask why would that claim be true ;THAT CHRIST IS THE ONLY SON OF GOD


    Yes,

    Jesus is definitely a son of God in a way that none other is a son of God.  There is a reason that Jesus is the ONLY one to be called God's ONLY begotten Son.


    Mike B.

    I agree:
    Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.
    For he was born *BY THE WILL OF GOD*.
    Billions of angels are also the sons of God,but not born.
    The were created spirit creatures.
    Jesus was born in the flesh,*by the will of God*.
    HE IS MY BELOVED SON;HEAR YE HIM.

    wakeup.


    W

    That his not the reason for Christ to be the only son of God,

    Adam was the first human son of God until he sinned,

    Christ was the first heavenly son of God and he never sinned ,No other being can claim that he his created to the image of God ,Col 1-15–21

    #360473
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 29 2013,14:51)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 29 2013,09:24)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 29 2013,10:35)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 28 2013,17:22)
    Mike

    I wanted to point out to Marty ;that Christ is called THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD ;AND YET THEIR ARE MANY SONS OF GOD like it says in Job 1;6 and so I ask why would that claim be true ;THAT CHRIST IS THE ONLY SON OF GOD


    Yes,

    Jesus is definitely a son of God in a way that none other is a son of God.  There is a reason that Jesus is the ONLY one to be called God's ONLY begotten Son.


    Mike B.

    I agree:
    Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.
    For he was born *BY THE WILL OF GOD*.
    Billions of angels are also the sons of God,but not born.
    The were created spirit creatures.
    Jesus was born in the flesh,*by the will of God*.
    HE IS MY BELOVED SON;HEAR YE HIM.

    wakeup.


    W

    That his not the reason for Christ to be the only son of God,

    Adam was the first human son of God until he sinned,

    Christ was the first heavenly son of God and he never sinned ,No other being can claim that he his created to the image of God ,Col 1-15–21


    Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON,because He is born
    by the will of God. And he was the Word made flesh.
    He was from *everlasting* in God.
    He has *no beginning* in God.
    No one can claim this, but Jesus.

    The proof is in Jesus own Words.

    John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that

    ***I came out from God***.

    John 16:28 ***I came forth from the Father***,

    and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

    God **brought forth** his Word before creation:
    ***And the Word was *WITH* God***.

    The word was *IN* God before creation: God alone,NONE ELSE: JUST GOD WITH HIMSELF.
    ***And the Word *WAS* God***.

    wakeup.

    #360491
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 29 2013,14:17)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 29 2013,14:51)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 29 2013,09:24)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 29 2013,10:35)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 28 2013,17:22)
    Mike

    I wanted to point out to Marty ;that Christ is called THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD ;AND YET THEIR ARE MANY SONS OF GOD like it says in Job 1;6 and so I ask why would that claim be true ;THAT CHRIST IS THE ONLY SON OF GOD


    Yes,

    Jesus is definitely a son of God in a way that none other is a son of God.  There is a reason that Jesus is the ONLY one to be called God's ONLY begotten Son.


    Mike B.

    I agree:
    Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.
    For he was born *BY THE WILL OF GOD*.
    Billions of angels are also the sons of God,but not born.
    The were created spirit creatures.
    Jesus was born in the flesh,*by the will of God*.
    HE IS MY BELOVED SON;HEAR YE HIM.

    wakeup.


    W

    That his not the reason for Christ to be the only son of God,

    Adam was the first human son of God until he sinned,

    Christ was the first heavenly son of God and he never sinned ,No other being can claim that he his created to the image of God ,Col 1-15–21


    Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON,because He is born
    by the will of God. And he was the Word made flesh.
    He was from *everlasting* in God.
    He has *no beginning* in God.
    No one can claim this, but Jesus.

    The proof is in Jesus own Words.

    John 16:27   For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that

          ***I came out from God***.

     John 16:28   ***I came forth from the Father***,

    and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

    God **brought forth** his Word before creation:
            ***And the Word was *WITH* God***.

    The word was *IN* God before creation: God alone,NONE ELSE: JUST GOD WITH HIMSELF.
                 ***And the Word *WAS* God***.

    wakeup.


    w

    you have to do better than that ;I want to see all the scriptures about “THE WORD OF GOD ” EVEN REVELATION 19'''AND COL 1;15-21  AND PROVERB 8;22–31 AND JOHN 17;  AND JOHN 1 ;1-4-38 AND YOUR EXPLANATION SHOULD NOT BREAK ANY OF THOSE SCRIPTURES INCLUDING THIS ONE ;

    1Jn 4:2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

    AND ALSO EXPLAIN JOHN1-1 ; WHY IT SAYS “AND WAS GOD ” AND NOT “AND WAS A GOD ” ACCORDING TO OLDER TRANSLATION,WELL EXPLAINED BY MIKE

    SO LET SEE WHAT YOU KNOW ,AS AN STARTED

    #360495
    terraricca
    Participant

    W

    HERE IS MORE ;

    Here are just a few.

    John 8:44
    You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

    Acts 28:6 NIV
    6The people expected him to swell up or suddenly fall dead, but after waiting a long time and seeing nothing unusual happen to him, they changed their minds and said he was a god.

    Acts 12:22
    They shouted, “This is the voice of a god, not of a man.”

    1 Corinthians 8:7
    But not everyone possesses this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled.

    1 Corinthians 14:33
    For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.

    While the Greeks did not use the indefinite article “a”, English translators add it in each and every time it is necessary for us to read the passage sensibly. That is………every time but one – John 1:1.

    You seem to be picking and choosing here t8. When in reference to an idol, then you say the word “a” should be added, but understood it refers to “A” false god.

    But when used of others besides idols, you want to leave the “A” out and call it “nature” or “a qualifyer”.

    So was Herod speaking like “A” god, or did he have the nature of God Himself? Did the people on Malta think Paul was “a god”, or that he had the nature of God Himself?

    And what about 1 Cor? Does it mean God is not “A” God of disorder, or that God is not “the nature of God” of disorder?

    And which one makes more sense when Paul calls Satan the god of this age? Is Paul calling Satan “A” god or mighty one, or is he saying he has the “nature of God”?

    The way I see it, the English translators are right to add the “A” in all of the above scriptures so they make sense to us. It just makes me wonder why the NWT seems to be the only translation that is not afraid to stick with the formula and also add it in John 1:1. Actually, it doesn't make me wonder at all – we both know that “the Word was God” makes a much more compelling case for the trinitarians.

    As far as our discussion goes, if you agree that the above scriptures should have the “A” added, then why would you just assume for some reason that it SHOULDN'T also be added in John 1???

    THIS IS A TRANSFER FROM MIKE QUOTE IN “PREEXISTANCE OF CHRIST ” BUT PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION

    #360504
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 30 2013,03:01)
    W

    HERE IS MORE ;

    Here are just a few.

    John 8:44
    You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

    Acts 28:6 NIV
    6The people expected him to swell up or suddenly fall dead, but after waiting a long time and seeing nothing unusual happen to him, they changed their minds and said he was a god.

    Acts 12:22
    They shouted, “This is the voice of a god, not of a man.”

    1 Corinthians 8:7
    But not everyone possesses this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled.

    1 Corinthians 14:33
    For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.

    While the Greeks did not use the indefinite article “a”, English translators add it in each and every time it is necessary for us to read the passage sensibly.  That is………every time but one – John 1:1.

    You seem to be picking and choosing here t8.  When in reference to an idol, then you say the word “a” should be added, but understood it refers to “A” false god.

    But when used of others besides idols, you want to leave the “A” out and call it “nature” or “a qualifyer”.  

    So was Herod speaking like “A” god, or did he have the nature of God Himself?  Did the people on Malta think Paul was “a god”, or that he had the nature of God Himself?

    And what about 1 Cor?  Does it mean God is not “A” God of disorder, or that God is not “the nature of God” of disorder?

    And which one makes more sense when Paul calls Satan the god of this age?  Is Paul calling Satan “A” god or mighty one, or is he saying he has the “nature of God”?

    The way I see it, the English translators are right to add the “A” in all of the above scriptures so they make sense to us.  It just makes me wonder why the NWT seems to be the only translation that is not afraid to stick with the formula and also add it in John 1:1.  Actually, it doesn't make me wonder at all – we both know that “the Word was God” makes a much more compelling case for the trinitarians.

    As far as our discussion goes, if you agree that the above scriptures should have the “A” added, then why would you just assume for some reason that it SHOULDN'T also be added in John 1???

    THIS IS A TRANSFER FROM MIKE QUOTE IN “PREEXISTANCE OF CHRIST ” BUT PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION


    Terra.

    You obviously can not see what the scriptures say:
    How many times do I have to show you?
    Maybe you dont bother to read.

    The proof is in Jesus own Words.

    John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that,

    ***I came out from God***.
    (TAKE NOTE).

    John 16:28 ***I came forth from the Father***,
    (TAKE NOTE).

    and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

    God **brought forth** his Word before creation:John said:
    ***And the Word was *WITH* God***.
    (TAKE NOTE).

    The word was *IN* God *before* creation: God alone,NONE ELSE: JUST GOD WITH HIMSELF. John said:
    ***And the Word *WAS* God***.
    (TAKE NOTE).

    wakeup.

    #360515
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 29 2013,23:29)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 30 2013,03:01)
    W

    HERE IS MORE ;

    Here are just a few.

    John 8:44
    You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

    Acts 28:6 NIV
    6The people expected him to swell up or suddenly fall dead, but after waiting a long time and seeing nothing unusual happen to him, they changed their minds and said he was a god.

    Acts 12:22
    They shouted, “This is the voice of a god, not of a man.”

    1 Corinthians 8:7
    But not everyone possesses this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled.

    1 Corinthians 14:33
    For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.

    While the Greeks did not use the indefinite article “a”, English translators add it in each and every time it is necessary for us to read the passage sensibly.  That is………every time but one – John 1:1.

    You seem to be picking and choosing here t8.  When in reference to an idol, then you say the word “a” should be added, but understood it refers to “A” false god.

    But when used of others besides idols, you want to leave the “A” out and call it “nature” or “a qualifyer”.  

    So was Herod speaking like “A” god, or did he have the nature of God Himself?  Did the people on Malta think Paul was “a god”, or that he had the nature of God Himself?

    And what about 1 Cor?  Does it mean God is not “A” God of disorder, or that God is not “the nature of God” of disorder?

    And which one makes more sense when Paul calls Satan the god of this age?  Is Paul calling Satan “A” god or mighty one, or is he saying he has the “nature of God”?

    The way I see it, the English translators are right to add the “A” in all of the above scriptures so they make sense to us.  It just makes me wonder why the NWT seems to be the only translation that is not afraid to stick with the formula and also add it in John 1:1.  Actually, it doesn't make me wonder at all – we both know that “the Word was God” makes a much more compelling case for the trinitarians.

    As far as our discussion goes, if you agree that the above scriptures should have the “A” added, then why would you just assume for some reason that it SHOULDN'T also be added in John 1???

    THIS IS A TRANSFER FROM MIKE QUOTE IN “PREEXISTANCE OF CHRIST ” BUT PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION


    Terra.

    You obviously can not see what the scriptures say:
    How many times do I have to show you?
    Maybe you dont bother to read.

    The proof is in Jesus own Words.

    John 16:27   For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that,

         ***I came out from God***.
                  (TAKE NOTE).

    John 16:28   ***I came forth from the Father***,
                                    (TAKE NOTE).

    and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

    God **brought forth** his Word before creation:John said:
           ***And the Word was *WITH* God***.
                          (TAKE NOTE).

    The word was *IN* God *before* creation: God alone,NONE ELSE: JUST GOD WITH HIMSELF. John said:
                ***And the Word *WAS* God***.
                             (TAKE NOTE).

    wakeup.


    w

    you are not taking in account all the scriptures and so your understanding is at best false,

    #360530
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Terra.

    Something is blocking you.

    wakeup.

    #360538
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 30 2013,07:22)
    Terra.

    Something is blocking you.

    wakeup.


    w

    no time boy

    #360549
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 30 2013,13:40)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 30 2013,07:22)
    Terra.

    Something is blocking you.

    wakeup.


    w

    no time boy


    Terra.

    May I suggest the kjv or similar old translation.

    wakeup.

    #360560
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 30 2013,10:09)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 30 2013,13:40)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 30 2013,07:22)
    Terra.

    Something is blocking you.

    wakeup.


    w

    no time boy


    Terra.

    May I suggest the kjv or similar old translation.

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    You do not even speak that antique dialect of English and T is not a native English speaker so it will probably be more difficult to him.

    #360563
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 30 2013,19:45)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 30 2013,10:09)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 30 2013,13:40)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 30 2013,07:22)
    Terra.

    Something is blocking you.

    wakeup.


    w

    no time boy


    Terra.

    May I suggest the kjv or similar old translation.

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    You do not even speak that antique dialect of English and T is not a native English speaker so it will probably be more difficult to him.


    Kerwin.

    I have had no problem understanding God's Word,
    as long as it is not contaminated by evil men.

    Your bible must be the new age bible.

    wakeup.

    #360567
    jammin
    Participant

    Kerwin im still waiting for your version that says God is an aspect of the word

    #360568
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 30 2013,14:58)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 30 2013,19:45)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 30 2013,10:09)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 30 2013,13:40)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 30 2013,07:22)
    Terra.

    Something is blocking you.

    wakeup.


    w

    no time boy


    Terra.

    May I suggest the kjv or similar old translation.

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    You do not even speak that antique dialect of English and T is not a native English speaker so it will probably be more difficult to him.


    Kerwin.

    I have had no problem understanding God's Word,
    as long as it is not contaminated by evil men.

    Your bible must be the new age bible.

    wakeup.


    and everything that IS NOT COMING FROM WAKEUP IS DEFINITELY CONTAMINATED :D :D :D :D :D :laugh:

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