John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 14,501 through 14,520 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #360302
    942767
    Participant

    HI Mike:

    None of the scriptures that you posted that Jesus name is called “the Word of God” in John 1, and in fact he was not called Jesus until he was born into this world.

    Quote

    Mat 1:21

    And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

    Luk 1:31

    And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #360306
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    :)  Okay Marty.  But did you notice that EVERYTHING said about “the Word” in John 1 is also said in scripture about “Jesus”?  Because that is what I thought you would see from my post.

    Marty, consider the last words of 1:14……. “full of grace and truth”.  Now consider the exact moment in John 1 where John stops calling this person “the Word” and starts calling him “Jesus”.  (Follow the words “grace” and “truth”):

    16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace……..

    At this point, “the Word” is still the subject of the teaching, and the name “Jesus” has not yet been written.  So at this point, we know that grace came to us through “the Word”.  

    DO YOU AGREE SO FAR?  YES or NO?

    Now watch:

    17 ……grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

    Do you agree that verse 16 says grace came from “the Word”?  YES or NO?

    And do you agree that verse 17 says grace came from “Jesus Christ”?  YES or NO?

    Now look back to verse 14:  We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Verse 14 is written about the one that had so far only been identified as “the Word”.  Do you agree?  And this “Word” came FROM the Father, full of grace and truth.  Do you agree?

    1.  Is the Word actually the Father Himself?  Or did the Word come FROM the Father?  Which one?

    2.  Are you able to see that “grace and truth” came from the Word?  And are you able to see that “grace and truth” came from Jesus Christ?

    #360307
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 27 2013,23:00)
    HI Mike:

    None of the scriptures that you posted that Jesus name is called “the Word of God” in John 1, and in fact he was not called Jesus until he was born into this world.

    Quote

    Mat 1:21

    And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

    Luk 1:31

    And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    think and think deep; NO ONE HAS SEEN GOD ,RIGHT YES ,WHY DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THEIR IS A GOD ???

    YOU NEVER HEARD HIM NOR SEEN HIM ;

    THE FACT THAT CHRIST CAME DOWN AND TOOK THE COVER OF FLESH WOULD THIS MAKE HIM LESS THAN THE “ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD ” ??? WHY IS CHRIST CALLED THE “ONLY SON “OF GOD ??? AND WE KNOW THEIR ARE MANY RIGHT ???

    #360308
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 27 2013,05:44)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 27 2013,03:56)
    Wakeup…….You showed scripture that said, “No man has been to heaven but he that came down from heaven” right?. So according to that scripture Jesus was a “MAN” existing in Heaven “before” he came down from Heaven right? that is interesting because i thought you believe no flesh and blood person could inter into the Kingdom of God which is “IN” heaven.  

    peace and love……………………………………..gene


    Marty.

    This is where decerning the scriptures is important.
    *HE* that was made flesh,is also *HE* that was the WORD
    in spirit form.

    *HE* that was with God, and had glory together.
    Is also *HE* who dwelleth amongst men.

    wakeup.


    It sounds to me that this is your opinion and that you cannot support this with scripture.

    Quote

    Hbr 1:1

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    Hbr 1:2

    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #360309
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 28 2013,04:09)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 27 2013,23:00)
    HI Mike:

    None of the scriptures that you posted that Jesus name is called “the Word of God” in John 1, and in fact he was not called Jesus until he was born into this world.

    Quote

    Mat 1:21

    And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

    Luk 1:31

    And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    think and think deep; NO ONE HAS SEEN GOD ,RIGHT YES ,WHY DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THEIR IS A GOD ???

    YOU NEVER HEARD HIM NOR SEEN HIM ;

    THE FACT THAT CHRIST CAME DOWN AND TOOK THE COVER OF FLESH WOULD THIS MAKE HIM LESS THAN THE “ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD ” ??? WHY IS CHRIST CALLED THE “ONLY SON “OF GOD ??? AND WE KNOW THEIR ARE MANY RIGHT ???


    These questions are not too hard for me, maybe for you.

    The scriptures state that God is invisible, but Jesus stated:

    Quote

    Jhn 14:5

    Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

    Jhn 14:6

    Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    Jhn 14:7

    If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

    Jhn 14:8

    Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

    Jhn 14:9

    Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

    Jhn 14:10

    Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

    And so, now I have seen the Father through the works that He did through His Only Begotten Son

    And yes, there are many sons now because of him, but we are sons by the spirit of adoption. He is the Only Son who has ever begotten by him in the womb of a woman.

    All of humanity other than him were born of the sperm of man. Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #360312
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 27 2013,03:56)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 25 2013,11:28)
    Jammin,

    I already admitted “aspect” is the wrong word in English……..

    In English the formula “x is a” can mean “a is an aspect of x”.


    So you admitted that “aspect” was the wrong word, and then showed a formula to support your use of this “wrong word”?   ???


    Mike,

    I used “can mean” to denote that is a possibility.   I looked up aspect and decided it was the wrong English word to express the relationship I was describing and so not applicable to the case under discussion.  The hypothetically correct one is that an aspect of the word is like an aspect of God in that the word is divine and God is divine.  

    #360313
    terraricca
    Participant

    Marty

    Quote
    All of humanity other than him were born of the sperm of man. Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost.

    scriptures do not say that ,

    conceived by the holy spirit

    Quote
    And so, now I have seen the Father through the works that He did through His Only Begotten Son

    Jn 14:10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
    Jn 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.
    Jn 14:12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
    Jn 14:13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.
    Jn 14:14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

    Jn 14:15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command.
    Jn 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—

    Quote
    And yes, there are many sons now because of him, but we are sons by the spirit of adoption. He is the Only Son who has ever begotten by him in the womb of a woman.

    Job 1:6 One day the sons of God , came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.

    I was talking about those that were and still sons of God ,not those that could become SONS OF GOD BY BEING AND STAYING FAITHFUL TO CHRIST AND HIS FATHER ;Jn 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become(BECOME NOT INSTANT AND NEED DEEDS ) children of God—

    Quote
    He is the Only Son who has ever begotten by him in the womb of a womaN

    THIS NEEDS TO BE PROVEN BY SCRIPTURES

    Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    and THE WORD” are not the words of God because ,God has his own mouth to speak ;Isaiah;1;20 ……./For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

    #360314
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 27 2013,04:03)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 25 2013,12:49)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 24 2013,08:19)

    Would anyone ever say, “2B went to the market, and his word went WITH him.” ?


    The lyrics is various Kitchen Utensils and surprise of all surprises all people but you seem to understand it.  


    Kerwin,

    Would you ever say the supersized words above?  At any time in your life, would you say them?

    I only saw ONE reply about your lyrics, and that was from 2B, who only said, “Funny”.

    So I'm not sure you can claim that “all people but me” understand your nonsense.

    Now, if those lyrics give us a VALID reason that people in the world WOULD say those supersized words above, then by all means, let's discuss each lyric, one at a time.

    If they don't, then you are wasting my time as you so often do.

    Come on, Man!


    Mike,

    I already gave evidence it is done in English and possibly Koine Greek so the issue is why it would be done in Koine Greek as the type of language use was translated to English because the English version is basically a word for word translation.  I do not have enough information to say why it is done.

    #360316
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 28 2013,00:43)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 27 2013,04:03)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 25 2013,12:49)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 24 2013,08:19)

    Would anyone ever say, “2B went to the market, and his word went WITH him.” ?


    The lyrics is various Kitchen Utensils and surprise of all surprises all people but you seem to understand it.  


    Kerwin,

    Would you ever say the supersized words above?  At any time in your life, would you say them?

    I only saw ONE reply about your lyrics, and that was from 2B, who only said, “Funny”.

    So I'm not sure you can claim that “all people but me” understand your nonsense.

    Now, if those lyrics give us a VALID reason that people in the world WOULD say those supersized words above, then by all means, let's discuss each lyric, one at a time.

    If they don't, then you are wasting my time as you so often do.

    Come on, Man!


    Mike,

    I already gave evidence it is done in English and possibly Koine Greek so the issue is why it would be done in Koine Greek as the type of language use was translated to English because the English version is basically a word for word translation.  I do not have enough information to say why it is done.


    k

    :D :D :D

    you could have said nothing and look wiser

    #360317
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 28 2013,00:43)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 27 2013,04:03)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 25 2013,12:49)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 24 2013,08:19)

    Would anyone ever say, “2B went to the market, and his word went WITH him.” ?


    The lyrics is various Kitchen Utensils and surprise of all surprises all people but you seem to understand it.  


    Kerwin,

    Would you ever say the supersized words above?  At any time in your life, would you say them?

    I only saw ONE reply about your lyrics, and that was from 2B, who only said, “Funny”.

    So I'm not sure you can claim that “all people but me” understand your nonsense.

    Now, if those lyrics give us a VALID reason that people in the world WOULD say those supersized words above, then by all means, let's discuss each lyric, one at a time.

    If they don't, then you are wasting my time as you so often do.

    Come on, Man!


    Mike,

    I already gave evidence it is done in English and possibly Koine Greek so the issue is why it would be done in Koine Greek as the type of language use was translated to English because the English version is basically a word for word translation.  I do not have enough information to say why it is done.


    Mike,

    You are speaking of John 1:1 and so the answer is that is was done to emphasize the word and its relationship to God.

    #360318
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 28 2013,00:49)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 28 2013,00:43)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 27 2013,04:03)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 25 2013,12:49)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 24 2013,08:19)

    Would anyone ever say, “2B went to the market, and his word went WITH him.” ?


    The lyrics is various Kitchen Utensils and surprise of all surprises all people but you seem to understand it.  


    Kerwin,

    Would you ever say the supersized words above?  At any time in your life, would you say them?

    I only saw ONE reply about your lyrics, and that was from 2B, who only said, “Funny”.

    So I'm not sure you can claim that “all people but me” understand your nonsense.

    Now, if those lyrics give us a VALID reason that people in the world WOULD say those supersized words above, then by all means, let's discuss each lyric, one at a time.

    If they don't, then you are wasting my time as you so often do.

    Come on, Man!


    Mike,

    I already gave evidence it is done in English and possibly Koine Greek so the issue is why it would be done in Koine Greek as the type of language use was translated to English because the English version is basically a word for word translation.  I do not have enough information to say why it is done.


    k

    :D  :D  :D

    you could have said nothing and look wiser


    T,

    Possibly, but my purpose is to learn by using conversation and other means.

    #360320
    942767
    Participant

    Hi Pierre:

    I don't know what you are saying:  the scriptures do not say that.  Are you saying that the following scripture is wrong?

    Quote

    Mat 1:20

    But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

    Or are you saying that all other men were not born of the sperm of man?

    Job 1:6 is speaking about angels, not men who have been born again, and have the power to become the sons of God through Jesus.

    Quote

    Jhn 1:10

    He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

    Jhn 1:11

    He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    Jhn 1:12

    But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    Jhn 1:13

    Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    Hebrews 1 states that God has spoken to humanity in these last days by His Son, and Jesus said this:

    Quote

    Jhn 12:46

    I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

    Jhn 12:47

    And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

    Jhn 12:48

    He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    Jhn 12:49

    For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

    Jhn 12:50

    And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #360322
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    BUT THE EARTH REMAINED IN DARKNESS, DESPITE ALL THESE THINGS, UNTIL THE FOURTH DAY?

    There was no night and day on earth and no source of light I know of until the fourth night and day of creation.  God worked on the earth on both the second and third day but nothing except the primary creation of it is mentioned is mentioned on the first day.

    Quote
    Are you saying God STARTED TO create the earth, then left that project to create the angels, and then came back and FINISHED the earth – at which time those recently created angels shouted for joy?  YES or NO?

    No, heaven and earth were parallel creations though not not constructed in the same order.  Builders today can build more than one building at the same time so why not God.

    Quote
    2. a stone representing the nominal starting place in the construction of a monumental building, usually carved with the date and laid with appropriate ceremonies  (“Appropriate ceremonies” like morning stars singing and angels shouting for joy, perhaps?  :) )

    The children of Israelites of that age are not Americans of this age.  I am going by Ezra 3:10.

    Ezra 3:10
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    10 And when the builders laid the foundation of the temple of the Lord, they set the priests in their apparel with trumpets, and the Levites the sons of Asaph with cymbals, to praise the Lord, after the ordinance of David king of Israel.

    Psalm 118:22
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    22 The stone which the builders refused
    is become the head stone of the corner.

    #360323
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 27 2013,02:26)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 27 2013,01:41)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 26 2013,22:13)
    so it is not the WORDS OF THE MAN BUT THE ACTIONS OF THE MAN THAT SAVES BY BELIEVING IN IT ,RIGHT ???


    T,

    Yes, though words are also actions but both a man who says what is right but does not do it will not inherit the reign of God.


    k

    understand that in Christ it is HIS ACTION THAT SAVES US ,BUT TO US IT IS THE ACTION OF BELIEVING HIS WORDS THAT WILL OR CAN SAVE US ;


    T,

    Believing gives birth to the righteous works of the law because God does as he promises.

    #360324
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 27 2013,03:06)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 24 2013,18:58)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 24 2013,07:26)

    2Co 10:10 For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.

    Paul was strong in his written words ,but apparently in real live he was a man of no stature ,(small,no real imposing his person,)


    T,

    I never looked at that passage like you.  


    2 Corinthians 10:1 NIV
    By the humility and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you—I, Paul, who am “timid” when face to face with you, but “bold” toward you when away!


    Mike,

    That is how I look at it but I believe the archaic wording of the AKJV led to T viewing it in a different way.

    #360335
    terraricca
    Participant

    marty

    Quote
    Job 1:6 is speaking about angels, not men who have been born again, and have the power to become the sons of God through Jesus.

    look at the HEBREW ORIGINAL it says ” SONS OF GOD” I believe the original Hebrew version ;

    KJV
    Now there was a day
    when the sons
    of God
    came
    (8799) to present
    (8692) themselves before the LORD
    _, and Satan

    #360336
    terraricca
    Participant

    Marty

    Quote
    I don't know what you are saying: the scriptures do not say that. Are you saying that the following scripture is wrong?

    Quote

    Mat 1:20

    But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

    Mt 1:18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.

    Mt 1:20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

    Mt 1:22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:

    Mt 1:23 “The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”—which means, “God with us.”

    Lk 1:34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
    Lk 1:35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and THE POWER OF THE MOST HIGH WILL OVERSHADOW YOU. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

    so my question to you is this ;

    what or who his the HOLY SPIRIT ???

    what or who his the POWER OF THE MOST HIGH ???

    and what is the part they took in Christ birth ???

    unless you answer those questions you have no inside ,but all those scriptures are the truth,

    #360337
    terraricca
    Participant

    Marty

    Quote
    Hebrews 1 states that God has spoken to humanity in these last days by His Son, and Jesus said this:

    the truth ,is that Christ give that work to his disciples and we are those that picked up their message what they have left for whoever want to hear it and act upon it ;

    Jn 17:20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,……….

    #360338
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 28 2013,02:05)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 27 2013,03:06)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 24 2013,18:58)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 24 2013,07:26)

    2Co 10:10 For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.

    Paul was strong in his written words ,but apparently in real live he was a man of no stature ,(small,no real imposing his person,)


    T,

    I never looked at that passage like you.  


    2 Corinthians 10:1 NIV
    By the humility and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you—I, Paul, who am “timid” when face to face with you, but “bold” toward you when away!


    Mike,

    That is how I look at it but I believe the archaic wording of the AKJV led to T viewing it in a different way.


    k

    no ,this is the way I see it as well ,

    timid
    ˈtɪmɪd/Submit
    adjective
    1.
    showing a lack of courage or confidence; easily frightened.
    “I was too timid to ask for what I wanted”
    synonyms:easily frightened, lacking courage, fearful, apprehensive, afraid, frightened, scared, faint-hearted; More

    but i still believe that Paul was not an imposing 6 feet 250 lbs good looking ,man either

    #360339
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 28 2013,02:03)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 27 2013,02:26)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 27 2013,01:41)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 26 2013,22:13)
    so it is not the WORDS OF THE MAN BUT THE ACTIONS OF THE MAN THAT SAVES BY BELIEVING IN IT ,RIGHT ???


    T,

    Yes, though words are also actions but both a man who says what is right but does not do it will not inherit the reign of God.


    k

    understand that in Christ it is HIS ACTION THAT SAVES US ,BUT TO US IT IS THE ACTION OF BELIEVING HIS WORDS THAT WILL OR CAN SAVE US ;


    T,

    Believing gives birth to the righteous works of the law because God does as he promises.


    k

    believing give birth to the DEEDS that bring righteousness to those that who obey God

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