John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 14,041 through 14,060 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #358067
    jammin
    Participant

    Christ is the word of God
    you can close the thread

    #358076
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 19 2013,07:01)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 19 2013,06:38)
    T,

    Quote
    no; scriptures are saying that the maiden was called Marry,and that she will be with child ;THAT IS ALL YOU KNOW ;ALL OF YOUR OTHER WORDS YOU HAVE ADDED TO IT BY YOUR IMAGINATION;

    Really!

    Galatians 4:4
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    4 but when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

    Who do you thing God's Son that this passage declares is made of a woman is?

    Are you going to disagree with it and say he was not made of a  woman?  It sure sounds like you are doing just that.

    Romans 1:3
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    3 concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

    Who is the seed of David Jesus' flesh is made of?

    Are you going to declare that this passage is wrong and you are right?   It sure sounds like it.

    Luke 2:21
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

    You seem to be of the opinion this passage is also wrong as well.

    Are you sure you want to stubbornly cleave to the idea these three witnesses of God are wrong and your chosen devices are right?


    K

    THANKS ,

    I like your answer ;and will get back on this ;

    but first answer my questions on the last quote ;

    and in the mean time do you believe that THE KING JAMES VERSION “ARE THE WORD OF GOD ” ???

    OR YOU ALSO BELIEVE THAT THE KJV IS ONLY ONE OF ITS VERSION MADE ??? CURIOUS TO KNOW


    T,

    The translators were not carried along by the Holy Spirit.

    #358080
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 19 2013,11:23)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 19 2013,05:30)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 18 2013,17:03)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 18 2013,11:47)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 18 2013,14:34)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 18 2013,05:41)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 18 2013,10:19)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 18 2013,04:17)

    Kerwin.

    Quote
    Jesus flesh died and he was raised to life in a new flesh and bone body by power of the Spirit.

    How did you come to this conclusion?

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    Not all flesh is the same.  The body that is planted, in this case Jesus' is not the body that arose.  Jesus' body was planted as mortal body because it died.  It arose a body of flesh and bone because Jesus said he had such.

    Scripture speaks of two types of human flesh,  the immortal flesh that existed before death came into creation and the mortal flesh that was the result of sin.  These two types are not the same as one is given life by the power of the Spirit and the other has a limited lifespan.


    Kerwin.

     Hebrews 1:4   Being made **so much better than the angels**, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

    Are you saying that flesh and bone is better than spirit?

    We also will be as the angels.
    So will we be better than Christ?

    QUOTE:
    Scripture speaks of two types of human flesh,  the immortal flesh that existed before death came into creation and the mortal flesh that was the result of sin.  These two types are not the same as one is given life by the power of the Spirit and the other has a limited lifespan UNQUOTE:

    **Where in scripture does it say this**?

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    Jesus as a human was made a little lower than the angels and then he was given authority over them and so was made greater than them.  He was not given a body greater than theirs.  

    It is Scripture that states that all flesh is not the same just after it makes the point that the body that is planted is not the body that comes up.  Jesus' body was planted and came up.  I don't see why it should be an exception to that sole rule about the final resurrection from the dead that is laid down in Scripture.

    Jesus Christ is like angels in all the ways that count but even among the angels are those that have different bodies.

    It speaks of the transition from the immortal flesh to the mortal flesh when it states death came by man.   It  also speaks of it when God cursed Adam's flesh to return to dust.


    Kerwin.

    John 3:6   That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit **is spirit**.

    John 6:63   It is the spirit that quickeneth; **the flesh profiteth nothing**: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

     1 Corinthians 15:45   And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a ***quickening spirit***.

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    Yes, that what is born of Spirit is spirit and so the Spirit to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.   Jesus tells us that is what the Councilor does.

    Yes, that what is born of flesh is flesh and so Jesus was not telling Nicodemus that you must enter your mother's womb a second time in order to inherit the kingdom.

    The Spirit is life because those who choose to live by it inherit eternal life.


    Kerwin.

    You are playing with words.
    The scripture is CLEAR;there is no need to explain
    it with your own words.
    THAT IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT ***IS SPIRIT***

    —————————————————————–
    QUOTE:
    Jesus Christ is like angels in all the ways that count but even among the angels are those that have different bodies.
    UNQUOTE:
    —————————————————————–

    Angels are all spirit: yes, they are not all the same in *BRIGHTNESS*,but same in substance.

    Juesus said: you will be as the angels, *in substance*.
    *All spirit* There is no such as flesh and bone spirit.
    Or flesh and bone with the spirit inside.
    These are all added on doctrines,to cover up contradictions.
    This is how they/pastors and the rest work.

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    There is nowhere in Scripture that it states angels are composed of spirit.  I believe that tenet, as the one about the resurrected body being composed of spirit, comes from Gnostic hearsay and a lack of knowledge of the cultural and environmental context or of the flexibility of language.  We are told that the angels that visited Lot's house were able to both eat and touch, abilities a creature composed of spirit does not have.


    Kerwin.

    Can you support your claim with scriptures?
    As far as I know there is the flesh,and there is the spirit body.

    1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also ***celestial bodies***, and ***bodies terrestrial***: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

    Only two types of bodies.

    You have more than two,this is not scriptural.

    wakeup.

    #358082
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 19 2013,12:20)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 19 2013,05:38)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 18 2013,09:14)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 18 2013,04:08)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 18 2013,08:54)

    Quote
    You say you believe,but in your heart,if it does
    not agree with *you* you dont believe.

    I NEVER SAY THIS ;

    YOU MADE IT UP ;NOT ME; SAD ,

    THIS IS HOW THE ROADS OF THE TRUE WORSHIPERS SEPARATE FROM THE DECEIVERS (WORKING FOR THEIR OWN INTEREST )TAKING AWAY THE KINGDOM OF THEIR OWN FOLLOWERS ,AND USE GOD'S WRITTEN WORDS TO DO IT ;AND THE REPUTATION OF HIS SON TO COLLECT THE RUN OFFS OF WHEALTH


    Terra.

    I am sorry for I have misunderstood you.
    You said John the babtist never drank wine.
    I agree.

    wakeup.


    :)


    Terra.

    You still need to present the evidence proving that I am using scriptures to deceive.
    Untill the evidence is put forward,I am not guilty.
    I am innocent *untill* proven guilty.
    Or you will be charged with false accusation.

    wakeup.


    CONSIDER ALL OF THE TOPICS WE ARE TALKING IN ;

    THEN TALK


    Terra.

    You are the accuser
    so you have to provide the evidence.

    wakeup.

    #358085
    kerwin
    Participant

    Wakeup,

    There is more than one type of flesh body as it is written:

    1 Corinthians 15:39
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

    Jesus testified that spirit does not have flesh and bone and then he both ate and allowed himself to be touched in order to prove he was not spirit.

    Genesis 19:10
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.

    The angel touched Lot as he pulled him in the door and doing so gave evidence he was not a spirit.

    Genesis 19:3
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

    The angels ate as did Jesus in order to show he was not a spirit.

    #358090
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 19 2013,11:03)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 19 2013,12:20)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 19 2013,05:38)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 18 2013,09:14)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 18 2013,04:08)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 18 2013,08:54)

    Quote
    You say you believe,but in your heart,if it does
    not agree with *you* you dont believe.

    I NEVER SAY THIS ;

    YOU MADE IT UP ;NOT ME; SAD ,

    THIS IS HOW THE ROADS OF THE TRUE WORSHIPERS SEPARATE FROM THE DECEIVERS (WORKING FOR THEIR OWN INTEREST )TAKING AWAY THE KINGDOM OF THEIR OWN FOLLOWERS ,AND USE GOD'S WRITTEN WORDS TO DO IT ;AND THE REPUTATION OF HIS SON TO COLLECT THE RUN OFFS OF WHEALTH


    Terra.

    I am sorry for I have misunderstood you.
    You said John the babtist never drank wine.
    I agree.

    wakeup.


    :)


    Terra.

    You still need to present the evidence proving that I am using scriptures to deceive.
    Untill the evidence is put forward,I am not guilty.
    I am innocent *untill* proven guilty.
    Or you will be charged with false accusation.

    wakeup.


    CONSIDER ALL OF THE TOPICS WE ARE TALKING IN ;

    THEN TALK


    Terra.

    You are the accuser
    so you have to provide the evidence.

    wakeup.


    I do not accuse you ,it is the scriptures that accuses you,

    Wen you give your interpretation ,of them is it God spirit that talks to you ??? If so why are you so far from the truth ???

    If not ,then you have taken upon you the guilt of your own words,

    We all stand before God ,exept that many men do not care ,they will in time ,but to late for redemption.

    #358095
    terraricca
    Participant

    K

    .???

    #358113
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 19 2013,19:47)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 19 2013,11:03)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 19 2013,12:20)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 19 2013,05:38)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 18 2013,09:14)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 18 2013,04:08)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 18 2013,08:54)

    Quote
    You say you believe,but in your heart,if it does
    not agree with *you* you dont believe.

    I NEVER SAY THIS ;

    YOU MADE IT UP ;NOT ME; SAD ,

    THIS IS HOW THE ROADS OF THE TRUE WORSHIPERS SEPARATE FROM THE DECEIVERS (WORKING FOR THEIR OWN INTEREST )TAKING AWAY THE KINGDOM OF THEIR OWN FOLLOWERS ,AND USE GOD'S WRITTEN WORDS TO DO IT ;AND THE REPUTATION OF HIS SON TO COLLECT THE RUN OFFS OF WHEALTH


    Terra.

    I am sorry for I have misunderstood you.
    You said John the babtist never drank wine.
    I agree.

    wakeup.


    :)


    Terra.

    You still need to present the evidence proving that I am using scriptures to deceive.
    Untill the evidence is put forward,I am not guilty.
    I am innocent *untill* proven guilty.
    Or you will be charged with false accusation.

    wakeup.


    CONSIDER ALL OF THE TOPICS WE ARE TALKING IN ;

    THEN TALK


    Terra.

    You are the accuser
    so you have to provide the evidence.

    wakeup.


    I do not accuse you ,it is the scriptures that accuses you,

    Wen you give your interpretation ,of them is it God spirit that talks to you ??? If so why are you so far from the truth ???

    If not ,then you have taken upon you the guilt of your own words,

    We all stand before God ,exept that many men do not care ,they will in time ,but to late for redemption.


    You called me a liar and a deceiver many times
    but with no scriptural evidence.

    You are guilty of falsly accusing your brother.

    wakeup

    #358115
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 19 2013,17:57)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 19 2013,19:47)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 19 2013,11:03)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 19 2013,12:20)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 19 2013,05:38)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 18 2013,09:14)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 18 2013,04:08)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 18 2013,08:54)

    Quote
    You say you believe,but in your heart,if it does
    not agree with *you* you dont believe.

    I NEVER SAY THIS ;

    YOU MADE IT UP ;NOT ME; SAD ,

    THIS IS HOW THE ROADS OF THE TRUE WORSHIPERS SEPARATE FROM THE DECEIVERS (WORKING FOR THEIR OWN INTEREST )TAKING AWAY THE KINGDOM OF THEIR OWN FOLLOWERS ,AND USE GOD'S WRITTEN WORDS TO DO IT ;AND THE REPUTATION OF HIS SON TO COLLECT THE RUN OFFS OF WHEALTH


    Terra.

    I am sorry for I have misunderstood you.
    You said John the babtist never drank wine.
    I agree.

    wakeup.


    :)


    Terra.

    You still need to present the evidence proving that I am using scriptures to deceive.
    Untill the evidence is put forward,I am not guilty.
    I am innocent *untill* proven guilty.
    Or you will be charged with false accusation.

    wakeup.


    CONSIDER ALL OF THE TOPICS WE ARE TALKING IN ;

    THEN TALK


    Terra.

    You are the accuser
    so you have to provide the evidence.

    wakeup.


    I do not accuse you ,it is the scriptures that accuses you,

    Wen you give your interpretation ,of them is it God spirit that talks to you ??? If so why are you so far from the truth ???

    If not ,then you have taken upon you the guilt of your own words,

    We all stand before God ,exept that many men do not care ,they will in time ,but to late for redemption.


    You called me a liar and a deceiver many times
    but with no scriptural evidence.

    You are guilty of falsly accusing your brother.

    wakeup


    show me where i do those things ,

    i am sure i have also told you the reasons for it ;

    #358121
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 19 2013,17:06)
    Wakeup,

    There is more than one type of flesh body as it is written:

    1 Corinthians 15:39
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

    Jesus testified that spirit does not have flesh and bone and then he both ate and allowed himself to be touched in order to prove he was not spirit.

    Genesis 19:10
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.

    The angel touched Lot as he pulled him in the door and doing so gave evidence he was not a spirit.

    Genesis 19:3
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

    The angels ate as did Jesus in order to show he was not a spirit.


    Kerwin.

    Dont let those scriptures put you off track.
    Angels are spirit and they are capable to
    manifest in the flesh if they have to.

    Dont use mans logic,thats what I can see
    is going on.
    When you start putting new ideas into scriptures
    you only will get lost,and never find the truth.

    wakeup.

    #358125
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 19 2013,23:04)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 19 2013,17:57)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 19 2013,19:47)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 19 2013,11:03)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 19 2013,12:20)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 19 2013,05:38)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 18 2013,09:14)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 18 2013,04:08)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 18 2013,08:54)

    Quote
    You say you believe,but in your heart,if it does
    not agree with *you* you dont believe.

    I NEVER SAY THIS ;

    YOU MADE IT UP ;NOT ME; SAD ,

    THIS IS HOW THE ROADS OF THE TRUE WORSHIPERS SEPARATE FROM THE DECEIVERS (WORKING FOR THEIR OWN INTEREST )TAKING AWAY THE KINGDOM OF THEIR OWN FOLLOWERS ,AND USE GOD'S WRITTEN WORDS TO DO IT ;AND THE REPUTATION OF HIS SON TO COLLECT THE RUN OFFS OF WHEALTH


    Terra.

    I am sorry for I have misunderstood you.
    You said John the babtist never drank wine.
    I agree.

    wakeup.


    :)


    Terra.

    You still need to present the evidence proving that I am using scriptures to deceive.
    Untill the evidence is put forward,I am not guilty.
    I am innocent *untill* proven guilty.
    Or you will be charged with false accusation.

    wakeup.


    CONSIDER ALL OF THE TOPICS WE ARE TALKING IN ;

    THEN TALK


    Terra.

    You are the accuser
    so you have to provide the evidence.

    wakeup.


    I do not accuse you ,it is the scriptures that accuses you,

    Wen you give your interpretation ,of them is it God spirit that talks to you ??? If so why are you so far from the truth ???

    If not ,then you have taken upon you the guilt of your own words,

    We all stand before God ,exept that many men do not care ,they will in time ,but to late for redemption.


    You called me a liar and a deceiver many times
    but with no scriptural evidence.

    You are guilty of falsly accusing your brother.

    wakeup


    show me where i do those things ,

    i am sure i have also told you the reasons for it ;


    Terra.

    As long as you can not
    bring forth the evidence on the table,
    you are guilty of fasely accusing.

    wakeup.

    #358135
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 19 2013,18:13)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 19 2013,17:06)
    Wakeup,

    There is more than one type of flesh body as it is written:

    1 Corinthians 15:39
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

    Jesus testified that spirit does not have flesh and bone and then he both ate and allowed himself to be touched in order to prove he was not spirit.

    Genesis 19:10
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.

    The angel touched Lot as he pulled him in the door and doing so gave evidence he was not a spirit.

    Genesis 19:3
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

    The angels ate as did Jesus in order to show he was not a spirit.


    Kerwin.

    Dont let those scriptures put you off track.
    Angels are spirit and they are capable to
    manifest in the flesh if they have to.

    Dont use mans logic,thats what I can see
    is going on.
    When you start putting new ideas into scriptures
    you only will get lost,and never find the truth.

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    The meanings of “manifest” do not agree with what I believe your intent is.

    Quote
    1
    :  readily perceived by the senses and especially by the sense of sight
    2
    :  easily understood or recognized by the mind :  obvious
    — man·i·fest·ly adverb

    You might be using the first meaning but that means they had a flesh body that was not readily perceived by the senses before they manifest. I do not believe that was your intention.

    I assuming you instead mean the angels transformed their spirit body to flesh.   That teaching is not in Scripture.

    I disregarded the idea of putting on flesh because of your believe in the idea of a spirit body and I do not think you believe they change bodies like cloths.

    So you believe angels are not true spirits as they are only spirits part of the time.  Even that contradicts Jesus' words and tests in Luke.

    Note: definition from Merriam-Webster online dictionary

    #358143
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 18 2013,18:12)

    Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
    But it's not like the words that came out of King David's mouth were some living entity that people obeyed, Kerwin

    I agree!


    And the words that come out of God's mouth? Are THEY living entities that people obey?

    #358144
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 19 2013,06:13)
    Angels are spirit and they are capable to
    manifest in the flesh if they have to.


    “Spirits don't have flesh and bones”.

    That is what Jesus himself told us.  But if spirits “manifest flesh”, then Jesus' point was moot, because it would mean that spirits SOMETIMES do have flesh and bones.

    There is no scripture that speaks of any spirit son of God “manifesting flesh”.  Instead, there are scriptural accounts where eyes that cannot usually see these spirit sons of God were opened so that they could see what is normally not seen.

    (Wakeup, you and I don't agree exactly about scriptural things………. but I've been following your posts on a number of threads, and am convinced that you know your stuff.  Keep up the good work, and keep fighting the good fight!  :) )

    #358145
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 17 2013,21:53)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 18 2013,05:31)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 16 2013,23:17)
    There is no “was” in the statement “existing in the form of God”.


    The “was” is implied because the statement as a whole is a past tense statement.

    Now, please tell me, in a clear and concise manner, why you believe the events of Phil 2:6-8 are NOT listed in chronological order.  Which part of Paul's words in that statement hint to you that he listed those events haphazardly, and out of order?


    Mike,

    Even if the statement is past tense………….


    1.  Before we move on, I need to know whether or not you agree that the “was” in Phil 2:6 is indeed implied because the statement as a whole is a past tense statement.

    2.  Are you ever going to address the bolded part in my quote above?  This is the third time I've asked.

    #358149
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2013,03:53)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 17 2013,21:53)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 18 2013,05:31)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 16 2013,23:17)
    There is no “was” in the statement “existing in the form of God”.


    The “was” is implied because the statement as a whole is a past tense statement.

    Now, please tell me, in a clear and concise manner, why you believe the events of Phil 2:6-8 are NOT listed in chronological order.  Which part of Paul's words in that statement hint to you that he listed those events haphazardly, and out of order?


    Mike,

    Even if the statement is past tense………….


    1.  Before we move on, I need to know whether or not you agree that the “was” in Phil 2:6 is indeed implied because the statement as a whole is a past tense statement.

    2.  Are you ever going to address the bolded part in my quote above?  This is the third time I've asked.


    Mike,

    1) Paul was speaking of an event that occurred in the past relative to where he was writing so it seemed reasonable to me that the sentence is past tense to then.  I did not check though s I did not see it would make a difference.

    Internally to the sentence and while and because Jesus was existing in the form of God he took a few actions actions.
    1) He did not seek to be equal to God
    2) He emptied himself of that which would make him not a servant.
    3) He took on the form of a servant.

    Simultaneously God made him in the likeness of humanity.

    Note: I am not sure about the simultaneously as I believe made is past tense but I will stand on that impression for now.

    2) The present tense “existing” and the words “form of God”, which are synonymous with the words “image of God”. The rest that is written about Jesus' actions just follow from those words.

    #358151
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2013,03:40)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 18 2013,18:12)

    Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
    But it's not like the words that came out of King David's mouth were some living entity that people obeyed, Kerwin

    I agree!


    And the words that come out of God's mouth?  Are THEY living entities that people obey?


    Mike,

    Yes, Poetically.

    That is the context I understood your question in.

    #358154
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 19 2013,18:23)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 19 2013,23:04)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 19 2013,17:57)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 19 2013,19:47)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 19 2013,11:03)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 19 2013,12:20)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 19 2013,05:38)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 18 2013,09:14)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 18 2013,04:08)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 18 2013,08:54)

    Quote
    You say you believe,but in your heart,if it does
    not agree with *you* you dont believe.

    I NEVER SAY THIS ;

    YOU MADE IT UP ;NOT ME; SAD ,

    THIS IS HOW THE ROADS OF THE TRUE WORSHIPERS SEPARATE FROM THE DECEIVERS (WORKING FOR THEIR OWN INTEREST )TAKING AWAY THE KINGDOM OF THEIR OWN FOLLOWERS ,AND USE GOD'S WRITTEN WORDS TO DO IT ;AND THE REPUTATION OF HIS SON TO COLLECT THE RUN OFFS OF WHEALTH


    Terra.

    I am sorry for I have misunderstood you.
    You said John the babtist never drank wine.
    I agree.

    wakeup.


    :)


    Terra.

    You still need to present the evidence proving that I am using scriptures to deceive.
    Untill the evidence is put forward,I am not guilty.
    I am innocent *untill* proven guilty.
    Or you will be charged with false accusation.

    wakeup.


    CONSIDER ALL OF THE TOPICS WE ARE TALKING IN ;

    THEN TALK


    Terra.

    You are the accuser
    so you have to provide the evidence.

    wakeup.


    I do not accuse you ,it is the scriptures that accuses you,

    Wen you give your interpretation ,of them is it God spirit that talks to you ??? If so why are you so far from the truth ???

    If not ,then you have taken upon you the guilt of your own words,

    We all stand before God ,exept that many men do not care ,they will in time ,but to late for redemption.


    You called me a liar and a deceiver many times
    but with no scriptural evidence.

    You are guilty of falsly accusing your brother.

    wakeup


    show me where i do those things ,

    i am sure i have also told you the reasons for it ;


    Terra.

    As long as you can not
    bring forth the evidence on the table,
    you are guilty of fasely accusing.

    wakeup.


    you should read the quotes ,it is you that accuses me ,not the other way around ; :D

    #358159
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 20 2013,04:16)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 19 2013,18:13)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 19 2013,17:06)
    Wakeup,

    There is more than one type of flesh body as it is written:

    1 Corinthians 15:39
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

    Jesus testified that spirit does not have flesh and bone and then he both ate and allowed himself to be touched in order to prove he was not spirit.

    Genesis 19:10
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.

    The angel touched Lot as he pulled him in the door and doing so gave evidence he was not a spirit.

    Genesis 19:3
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

    The angels ate as did Jesus in order to show he was not a spirit.


    Kerwin.

    Dont let those scriptures put you off track.
    Angels are spirit and they are capable to
    manifest in the flesh if they have to.

    Dont use mans logic,thats what I can see
    is going on.
    When you start putting new ideas into scriptures
    you only will get lost,and never find the truth.

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    The meanings of “manifest” do not agree with what I believe your intent is.

    Quote
    1
    :  readily perceived by the senses and especially by the sense of sight
    2
    :  easily understood or recognized by the mind :  obvious
    — man·i·fest·ly adverb

    You might be using the first meaning but that means they had a flesh body that was not readily perceived by the senses before they manifest. I do not believe that was your intention.

    I assuming you instead mean the angels transformed their spirit body to flesh.   That teaching is not in Scripture.

    I disregarded the idea of putting on flesh because of your believe in the idea of a spirit body and I do not think you believe they change bodies like cloths.

    So you believe angels are not true spirits as they are only spirits part of the time.  Even that contradicts Jesus' words and tests in Luke.

    Note: definition from Merriam-Webster online dictionary


    Kerwin.

    Can you elaborate on these scriptures?

    Hebrews 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;

    Hebrews 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

    Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

    wakeup.

    #358166
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 19 2013,16:27)
    1) Paul was speaking of an event that occurred in the past relative to where he was writing so it seemed reasonable to me that the sentence is past tense to then.


    So then, from Paul's point of view as he was writing those words, Jesus WAS existing in the form of God, right?

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 19 2013,16:27)
    while…..Jesus was existing in the form of God he took a few actions actions.
    1) He did not seek to be equal to God
    2) He emptied himself of that which would make him not a servant.
    3) He took on the form of a servant.

    Simultaneously God made him in the likeness of humanity.


    I think I can get on board with that.

    WHILE Jesus WAS existing in the form of God, he didn't consider equality with God something to be grasped, BUT INSTEAD emptied himself BY taking on the form of a servant, WHICH HE DID BY being made in the likeness of a human being.  And he didn't stop there, but AFTER he was made as a man, he humbled himself EVEN FURTHER by becoming obedient to death.

    This is how I understand Paul's words.  It seems the most obvious and clear meaning of those words to a person who has no special doctrine to maintain.

    I truthfully couldn't care less whether or not Jesus pre-existed his flesh.  But I must align my understanding with what is clearly and MANY TIMES taught in the scriptures.

Viewing 20 posts - 14,041 through 14,060 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account