John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

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  • #353662
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2013,11:19)
    Mike,

    Quote
    Agreed.  Jesus, ACCORDING ONLY TO THE FLESH, was an offspring of David.  So according to WHAT was Jesus the ROOT of David?

    And why make the distinction in the first place?  If there wasn't anything to Jesus except for the “ACCORDING TO THE FLESH Jesus”, then why mention it?

    Romans 4:1
    King James Version (KJV)

    4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

    According to the flesh Abraham is the father of the Jews.


    Kerwin,

    I have recently addressed that point for Jodi Lee in our private thread.  He is that post:

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 02 2013,22:33)
    Romans 4:1 RSV
    What then shall we say about Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?

    Does Barnes assume that Abraham pre-existed with Jesus?


    Not at all, Jodi.  We must consider what Paul is teaching us in that passage.  He is saying, 2 If, for instance, Abraham were declared righteous as a result of works, he would have ground for boasting…………

    3 But instead of trying to gain righteousness ACCORDING TO THE FLESH (by works), Abraham exercised faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness.

    The NKJV has Romans 4:1 translated correctly:  What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?

    The question, “What did our forefather Abraham gain according to the flesh?”, is rhetorical, and assumes the answer of “NOTHING!”  Abraham gained nothing by his own works according to the flesh, but everything by his unquestioned faith in Jehovah.  As Paul explains in verse 3, it was not the works of flesh hands that gained Abraham righteousness, but his faith in God alone that was credited to him as righteousness.

    In other words, there is nothing any of us can do according to our flesh that would be reckoned as righteousness by our God.  But having faith in God can be credited to us as righteousness, as it was credited to Abraham as righteousness.

    The majority of the commentators, including Barnes, understand that the “according to the flesh” part of the verse goes with “gained” – and not with the “our forefather” part.  Here are some of their comments:

    Barnes
    This expression is one that has been much controverted. In the original, it may refer either to Abraham as their father “according to the flesh,” that is, their natural father, or from whom they were descended; or it may be connected with “hath found.”

    “What shall we say that Abraham our father hath found in respect to the flesh?” κατὰ σάρκα kata sarka. The latter is doubtless the proper connection.

    Gill
    …..now the question put concerning him is, “what he, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?”

    Vincent's Word Studies
    As pertaining to the flesh (κατὰ σάρκα)

    Construe with found. The question is, Was Abraham justified by anything which pertained to the flesh?

    Geneva Study Bible
    …….this is the proposition: if Abraham is considered in himself by his works, (according to the flesh) he has deserved nothing with which to rejoice with God.

    Wesley's Notes
    According to the flesh – That is, by works.

    Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
    What shall we say then that Abraham, our father as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?-that is, (as the order in the original shows), “hath found, as pertaining to ('according to,' or 'through') the flesh”; meaning, “by all his natural efforts or legal obedience.”

    Matthew Henry's Whole Bible Commentary
    What has he found, kata sarka-as pertaining to the flesh, that is, by circumcision and his external privileges and performances? These the apostle calls flesh, Phil. 3:3. Now what did he get by these? Was he justified by them? Was it the merit of his works that recommended him to God's acceptance? No, by no means, which he proves by several arguments.

    So you can see that the commentators seem to be in agreement that it is not saying, “our father according to the flesh”, but “what has our father gained according to the flesh”.

    #353663
    terraricca
    Participant

    all

    Mk 12:1 He then began to speak to them in parables: “A man planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a pit for the winepress and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey.
    Mk 12:2 At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants to collect from them some of the fruit of the vineyard.
    Mk 12:3 But they seized him, beat him and sent him away empty-handed.
    Mk 12:4 Then he sent another servant to them; they struck this man on the head and treated him shamefully.
    Mk 12:5 He sent still another, and that one they killed. He sent many others; some of them they beat, others they killed.
    Mk 12:6 “He had one left to send, a son, whom he loved. He sent him last of all, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’
    Mk 12:7 “But the tenants said to one another, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’
    Mk 12:8 So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.
    Mk 12:9 “What then will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others.
    Mk 12:10 Haven’t you read this scripture:
    “ ‘The stone the builders rejected
    has become the capstone ;
    Mk 12:11 the Lord has done this,
    and it is marvelous in our eyes’

    Mt 20:25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.
    Mt 20:26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,
    Mt 20:27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—
    Mt 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

    their is no one in all creation that has served so many that the blessing will cover all of God's creation ,this is why Mt 20:26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,
    Mt 20:27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—

    CHRIST THE SON OF GOD HIS THE FIRST “

    #353664
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    It is possible that the “Word was made flesh”” can imply the “Word was made into flesh” as I can understand the clause “”the ingredients were made cake” as “the ingredients were made into cake”.  After all the ingredients are in the cake.  

    The Word translates from a not flesh state to a flesh state but is not transformed into flesh as the flesh is made of the seed of David.

    The children of God are fathered when God sends his Spirit into their hearts, whether they are man or angel.  In a like manner the children of the devil are fathered when they gain a spirit that is short of God's glory.

    Romans 8:15
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

    Galatians 4:6
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

    #353665
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2013,18:04)
    Mike,

    It is possible that the “Word was made flesh”” can imply the “Word was made into flesh” as I can understand the clause “”the ingredients were made cake” as “the ingredients were made into cake”.  After all the ingredients are in the cake.


    Is there another understanding of “the ingredients were made cake” besides “the ingredients were made into cake”?

    Kerwin, it is clear to me that you understand the meaning of the words “the Word was made flesh”.  And I'm quite sure we wouldn't even be having this discussion at all if it wasn't for your own personal reasons to not accept the most obvious and common sense meaning of those words.

    You are being guided by your personal notions of what the scriptures SHOULD teach. And that is causing you to pretend there is a different meaning of “the ingredients were made cake” besides “the ingredients were made into cake”.

    There really isn't.

    #353670
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Those experts seem to prefer a complex understanding in  claiming that Paul is hypothetically claiming Abraham is our father according to the carnal nature if he and we are to obtain righteousness by works.  

    They are correct that the clause “according to the flesh” can either have a spiritual or physical meaning.

    I prefer a more simple understanding that is echoed in:

    Romans 9:3
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

    #353671
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2013,19:15)
    Mike,

    Those experts seem to prefer a complex understanding in claiming that Paul is hypothetically claiming Abraham is our father according to the carnal nature if he and we are to obtain righteousness by works.


    Kerwin,

    Please proof-read your posts to see if they make sense before posting them. I'm having a hard time figuring out your wording lately.

    And the commentators aren't opting for “the complex understanding”, Kerwin. The are taking the logical approach, based on the context of the passage and the word order of the original text.

    Do you agree that Paul's teaching in Rom 4 is about how we cannot find righteousness with God according to our own fleshly works? YES or NO?

    #353672
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    You seem to want John 1:14 to mean the Word was transformed into a human being even though you know the flesh was made of the seed of David. Unless you believe the Word is the seed of David you have two different ingredients the human being was made of.

    I previously stated the Word translated to flesh but it did not transform as that would contradict the flesh being of the seed of David.

    It seems reasonable that the Word translated to flesh when God sent forth his Spirit into the flesh that was to be named Jesus as receiving the Spirit is being begotten of God.

    #353673
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 09 2013,07:23)

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2013,19:15)
    Mike,

    Those experts seem to prefer a complex understanding in  claiming that Paul is hypothetically claiming Abraham is our father according to the carnal nature if he and we are to obtain righteousness by works.


    Kerwin,

    Please proof-read your posts to see if they make sense before posting them.  I'm having a hard time figuring out your wording lately.

    And the commentators aren't opting for “the complex understanding”, Kerwin.  The are taking the logical approach, based on the context of the passage and the word order of the original text.  

    Do you agree that Paul's teaching in Rom 4 is about how we cannot find righteousness with God according to our own fleshly works?  YES or NO?


    Mike,

    It sounds like Paul's audience of that teaching is the Jewish believers who hold to the doctrine of living according to the works of the law and so not living by the Spirit.  Those same Jews Paul later referred to as his brothers according to the flesh.

    Double negatives confuse me. Yes, the works of the flesh fall short of God's glory but Paul is teaching of the works of the law and not the works of the flesh. I agree the works of the law come before the Spirit was first given and so can only come from the flesh.

    I don't find the experts words untrue but only complex and so a very doubtful understanding of Paul's words.

    #353684
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 07 2013,12:45)

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 06 2013,06:42)
    Hi Mike,

    Why doesn't it instead tell you that “The Word” is God's HolySpirit?


    Why?  Does God's Holy Spirit have a will of its own – that may or may not agree with God's will?


    Hi Mike,

    NO, the HolySpirit is the will of the father.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #353689
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 09 2013,09:50)
    edj

    Quote
    2) Col.1:16-17 refers to “The Father”, which is the subject starting in verse 12.

    I still waiting for you to honestly show me all Col 1 to 21 and show me where it is talking of God or Christ ,but you only say you do it but you did not ,

    and you have to interpret the scriptures as you switch it in your twisted ways ,and call anyone else a twister of scriptures ????:D :p


    Hi Pierre,

    “God The Father” is the “Subject” in Col.1:12-20 and Jesus is the Object; English 101.
    I will take the liberty to insert both the subject and object into the text for 'your' understanding.
    Normally I remove the numbers, but for explanation purposes, my “Free Will” will leave them in for you.
    There is no inconsistencies with the rest of “The Bible” – viewing Col.1:12-20 in the light of my view. (Eph.5:13)

    Col.1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet
    to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light (Romans 8:17):
    13: Who (YHVH our God) hath delivered us from the power of darkness,
    and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son(switching to object):
    14: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
    15: Who(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(YHVH), the firstborn of every creature:
    16: For by him(YHVH)(switching back to the subject) were all things created, that are in heaven,
    and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
    or powers: all things were created by him(YHVH), and for him(YHVH): (compare with Revelation 4:11)
    17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist. (see also Isaiah 42:5-7)
    18: And he(Jesus Christ)(switching back to the object) is the head of the body, the church:
    who is the beginning(the preeminence of God), the firstborn from the dead (Romans 1:4);
    that in all things he(Jesus) might have the preeminence(over all his brethren).
    19: For it pleased the Father that in him(Jesus) should all fulness dwell;
    20: And, having made peace through the blood of his(Jesus) cross,
    by him(YHVH) to reconcile all things unto himself(2Cor.5:18);
    by him, whether things in earth, or things in heaven.

    Lets now look at verse 16 and verse 17 with greater scrutiny…

    16: For by him(YHVH) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
    visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
    or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (Rev.4:11)

    Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) created these things “in Heaven”…

    1. God's throne
    2. God's dominion
    3. God's principality
    4. God's power
    5. God himself

    Can you not see the flaw in 'your' assertion?

    Now let's take a closer look at verse 17…

    17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist.

    Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) is before YHVH himself?
    Would 'you' have us to believe by Jesus (falsely) all things consist?
    How can you reconcile this belief without saying Jesus is God?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #353690
    2besee
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 09 2013,16:31)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 09 2013,09:50)
    edj

    Quote
    2) Col.1:16-17 refers to “The Father”, which is the subject starting in verse 12.

    I still waiting for you to honestly show me all Col 1 to 21 and show me where it is talking of God or Christ ,but you only say you do it but you did not ,

    and you have to interpret the scriptures as you switch it in your twisted ways ,and call anyone else a twister of scriptures ????:D :p


    Hi Pierre,

    “God The Father” is the “Subject” in Col.1:12-20 and Jesus is the Object; English 101.
    I will take the liberty to insert both the subject and object into the text for 'your' understanding.
    Normally I remove the numbers, but for explanation purposes, my “Free Will” will leave them in for you.
    There is no inconsistencies with the rest of “The Bible” – viewing Col.1:12-20 in the light of my view. (Eph.5:13)

    Col.1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet
    to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light (Romans 8:17):
    13: Who (YHVH our God) hath delivered us from the power of darkness,
    and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son(switching to object):
    14: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
    15: Who(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(YHVH), the firstborn of every creature:
    16: For by him(YHVH)(switching back to the subject) were all things created, that are in heaven,
    and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
    or powers: all things were created by him(YHVH), and for him(YHVH): (compare with Revelation 4:11)
    17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist. (see also Isaiah 42:5-7)
    18: And he(Jesus Christ)(switching back to the object) is the head of the body, the church:
    who is the beginning(the preeminence of God), the firstborn from the dead (Romans 1:4);
    that in all things he(Jesus) might have the preeminence(over all his brethren).
    19: For it pleased the Father that in him(Jesus) should all fulness dwell;
    20: And, having made peace through the blood of his(Jesus) cross,
    by him(YHVH) to reconcile all things unto himself(2Cor.5:18);
    by him, whether things in earth, or things in heaven.

    Lets now look at verse 16 and verse 17 with greater scrutiny…

    16: For by him(YHVH) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
    visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
    or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (Rev.4:11)

    Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) created these things “in Heaven”…

    1. God's throne
    2. God's dominion
    3. God's principality
    4. God's power
    5. God himself

    Can you not see the flaw in 'your' assertion?

    Now let's take a closer look at verse 17…

    17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist.

    Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) is before YHVH himself?
    Would 'you' have us to believe by Jesus (falsely) all things consist?
    How can you reconcile this belief without saying Jesus is God?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Ed, Amen, thank you for that information. That's what I thought but you just put it better than me. :)

    #353708
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 09 2013,09:31)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 09 2013,09:50)
    edj

    Quote
    2) Col.1:16-17 refers to “The Father”, which is the subject starting in verse 12.

    I still waiting for you to honestly show me all Col 1 to 21 and show me where it is talking of God or Christ ,but you only say you do it but you did not ,

    and you have to interpret the scriptures as you switch it in your twisted ways ,and call anyone else a twister of scriptures ????:D :p


    Hi Pierre,

    “God The Father” is the “Subject” in Col.1:12-20 and Jesus is the Object; English 101.
    I will take the liberty to insert both the subject and object into the text for 'your' understanding.
    Normally I remove the numbers, but for explanation purposes, my “Free Will” will leave them in for you.
    There is no inconsistencies with the rest of “The Bible” – viewing Col.1:12-20 in the light of my view. (Eph.5:13)

    Col.1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet
    to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light (Romans 8:17):
    13: Who (YHVH our God) hath delivered us from the power of darkness,
    and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son(switching to object):
    14: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
    15: Who(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(YHVH), the firstborn of every creature:
    16: For by him(YHVH)(switching back to the subject) were all things created, that are in heaven,
    and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
    or powers: all things were created by him(YHVH), and for him(YHVH): (compare with Revelation 4:11)
    17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist. (see also Isaiah 42:5-7)
    18: And he(Jesus Christ)(switching back to the object) is the head of the body, the church:
    who is the beginning(the preeminence of God), the firstborn from the dead (Romans 1:4);
    that in all things he(Jesus) might have the preeminence(over all his brethren).
    19: For it pleased the Father that in him(Jesus) should all fulness dwell;
    20: And, having made peace through the blood of his(Jesus) cross,
    by him(YHVH) to reconcile all things unto himself(2Cor.5:18);
    by him, whether things in earth, or things in heaven.

    Lets now look at verse 16 and verse 17 with greater scrutiny…

    16: For by him(YHVH) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
    visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
    or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (Rev.4:11)

    Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) created these things “in Heaven”…

    1. God's throne
    2. God's dominion
    3. God's principality
    4. God's power
    5. God himself

    Can you not see the flaw in 'your' assertion?

    Now let's take a closer look at verse 17…

    17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist.

    Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) is before YHVH himself?
    Would 'you' have us to believe by Jesus (falsely) all things consist?
    How can you reconcile this belief without saying Jesus is God?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj

    no ,switching ,I just want your view ;so only either God or Christ ,

    you can give your notes on the botton but not in those scriptures ,so please correct the extras addition

    #353709
    terraricca
    Participant

    edj

    Quote
    16: For by him(YHVH) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
    visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
    or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (Rev.4:11)

    first if you would know the God of the scriptures ,you would know that God does not need anything ,so whatever he as created was for some else than himself ,his son ,his only one begotten son ,through whom he created all other things,

    the fact that God creates all things remain and belong to him ,but it is out of the LOVE FOR HIS SON that he made all things and because of the son intervention that he as save men and accept for his only son to go through the pain he did ,

    for all those reasons I disagree with you

    #353712
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 10 2013,02:52)

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 09 2013,09:31)
    Hi Pierre,

    “God The Father” is the “Subject” in Col.1:12-20 and Jesus is the Object; English 101.
    I will take the liberty to insert both the subject and object into the text for 'your' understanding.
    Normally I remove the numbers, but for explanation purposes, my “Free Will” will leave them in for you.
    There is no inconsistencies with the rest of “The Bible” – viewing Col.1:12-20 in the light of my view. (Eph.5:13)

    Col.1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet
    to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light (Romans 8:17):
    13: Who (YHVH our God) hath delivered us from the power of darkness,
    and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son(switching to object):
    14: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
    15: Who(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(YHVH), the firstborn of every creature:
    16: For by him(YHVH)(switching back to the subject) were all things created, that are in heaven,
    and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
    or powers: all things were created by him(YHVH), and for him(YHVH): (compare with Revelation 4:11)
    17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist. (see also Isaiah 42:5-7)
    18: And he(Jesus Christ)(switching back to the object) is the head of the body, the church:
    who is the beginning(the preeminence of God), the firstborn from the dead (Romans 1:4);
    that in all things he(Jesus) might have the preeminence(over all his brethren).
    19: For it pleased the Father that in him(Jesus) should all fulness dwell;
    20: And, having made peace through the blood of his(Jesus) cross,
    by him(YHVH) to reconcile all things unto himself(2Cor.5:18);
    by him, whether things in earth, or things in heaven.

    Lets now look at verse 16 and verse 17 with greater scrutiny…

    16: For by him(YHVH) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
    visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
    or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (Rev.4:11)

    Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) created these things “in Heaven”…

    1. God's throne
    2. God's dominion
    3. God's principality
    4. God's power
    5. God himself

    Can you not see the flaw in 'your' assertion?

    Now let's take a closer look at verse 17…

    17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist.

    Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) is before YHVH himself?
    Would 'you' have us to believe by Jesus (falsely) all things consist?
    How can you reconcile this belief without saying Jesus is God?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj

    no ,switching ,I just want your view ;so only either God or Christ ,

    you can give your notes on the botton but not in those scriptures ,so please correct the extras addition


    Hi Pierre,

    That is my answer, sorry if you disapprove.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #353713
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 10 2013,02:59)
    edj

    Quote
    16: For by him(YHVH) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
    visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
    or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (Rev.4:11)

    first if you would know the God of the scriptures ,you would know that God does not need anything ,so whatever he as created was for some else than himself ,his son ,his only one begotten son ,through whom he created all other things,

    the fact that God creates all things remain and belong to him ,but it is out of the LOVE FOR HIS SON that he made all things and because of the son intervention that he as save men and accept for his only son to go through the pain he did ,

    for all those reasons I disagree with you


    Hi Pierre,

    You are of course free to do that.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #353714
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (2besee @ Aug. 09 2013,14:39)
    Ed, Amen, thank you for that information. That's what I thought but you just put it better than me. :)


    :)

    #353722
    terraricca
    Participant

    edj and 2bee

    Col 1:13 For he(God) has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he(God) loves,
    Col 1:14 in(Christ) whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

    Col 1:15 He(Christ) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    Col 1:16 For by him(this is Christ their is no changes in direction from Paul speech) all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. (1PE 3:22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.)
    Col 1:17 He(Christ,because he as been created the first and so is before all things but not God his father ) is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (Mt 20:26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,
    Mt 20:27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— (1Co 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.)
    Mt 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”)
    Col 1:18 And he(Christ) is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning “+”and the firstborn from among the dead, “+” so that in everything he(Christ) might have the supremacy. (EVERYTHING STANDS FOR “EVERYTHING = ALL, EXCEPT GOD,)
    Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,(Christ) (1Co 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.)
    Col 1:20 and through him(Christ) to reconcile to himself(God) all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. (Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:( Jn 6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; Jn 14:24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.(at what point does Christ says he received the words of his father ???)in heaven ??? yes
    Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
    Heb 9:26 For then must he(Christ) often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he(Christ) appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself )THIS SCRIPTURES MAKE CHRIST BEING EXISTING PRIOR TO HIS MAN LIKE LIFE,
    Col 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
    Col 1:22 But now he(Christ) has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— (Jn 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.”)
    Col 1:23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

    Jn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

    I have shown the supporting scriptures along

    #353723
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2013,19:31)
    I previously stated the Word translated to flesh but it did not transform as that would contradict the flesh being of the seed of David.


    And what if I could show you scripturally that the Word being made flesh DIDN'T contradict the flesh being the seed of David?

    Would you then change your mind, Kerwin? Would you then at least listen with an open mind?

    If the answer to that last question is “YES”, then I will lay it out for you, according to the scriptures.

    #353724
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2013,19:38)
    I don't find the experts words untrue but only complex and so a very doubtful understanding of Paul's words.


    Kerwin,

    Here are the two choices of translation:

    1. Abraham is our father according to the flesh.

    2. What righteousness did our father Abraham ever achieve according to his fleshy efforts?

    Now I ask you, is #2 really all that complex when you consider it is the exact point Paul was teaching in that entire passage?

    #353727
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 10 2013,03:45)

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2013,19:38)
    I don't find the experts words untrue but only complex and so a very doubtful understanding of Paul's words.


    Kerwin,

    Here are the two choices of translation:

    1.  Abraham is our father according to the flesh.

    2.  What righteousness did our father Abraham ever achieve according to his fleshy efforts?

    Now I ask you, is #2 really all that complex when you consider it is the exact point Paul was teaching in that entire passage?


    Mike,

    Yes, it is complex.

    1) it hypothesizes an Abraham who lived by the flesh.
    2) it hypothesizes believers who live by the flesh.
    3) it proposes that both these hypothetical Jew and Gentile are the children of this hypothetical Abraham because they like him live by the flesh.

    That is complex though not worth debating as the bottom line is that Paul also speaks of his brethren according to the flesh.

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