John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 10,941 through 10,960 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
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  • #316590
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 18 2012,16:26)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 14 2012,18:06)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 14 2012,06:18)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 13 2012,02:12)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2012,10:42)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 07 2012,15:55)
    Hi Charles,
    I asked Mike how many 'theos' are to be known, believed in, served, honored, and praised in order to have eternal salvation.

    Hey Charles and jammin……………………….

    When are you guys going to answer Kathi's question with a NUMERICAL answer?

    HOW MANY?


    there is ONE GOD THE FATHER

    there is one GOD THE ONLY SON!

    that is the answer mike. we told you about this a long long time ago


    Well jammin,

    One plus one equals TWO, right?  So are you saying we have TWO Almighty Gods?  YES or NO?


    TWO persons
    but one in nature, GOD.


    But Kathi is not asking how many PERSONS are to be known, believed in, served, honored, and praised in order to have eternal salvation, is she?

    She's asking how many GODS, right?

    Please answer HER question as she asked it.

    HOW MANY GODS, JAMMIN?


    stop fooling people mike.
    we know and it is very obvious that you are adding words to the bible.

    you said before CHRIST WAS IN THE FORM OF HIS GOD

    take note the word HIS

    no version that says HIS God in phil 2.6. ONLY MIKE SAID THAT!
    i asked you where can you find your illusion HIS GOD in phil 2.6 but you are keep ignoring my question.

    to answer your question
    my ANSWER IS who is the GOD that you are referring to?
    if you say the father, my answer is ONE
    if you say the son, my answer is ONE

    they have the same nature, God.

    the bible said the son is God
    the father is also GOD

    GOD is their nature.
    my example will always be you and your father. you are two in numbers but one in nature, HUMAN.

    #316591
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Oct. 18 2012,18:09)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 18 2012,16:26)
    there is ONE GOD THE FATHER

    there is one GOD THE ONLY SON!

    TWO persons
    but one in nature, GOD.
    She's asking how many GODS, right?

    Please answer HER question as she asked it.

    HOW MANY GODS, JAMMIN?


    Mike,

    He will not answer.

    He will answer the wrong way.

    He will never answer your question faithfully.

    He even despising and discarding the Son, teaching that the only true God, is the Father alone and not the Son.

    See his style, see how he cheated himself by not putting the words “only true God, the Father.

    He is insisting at any rate that the Son is truly God and also the Father is truly God.

    He is insisting two persons composing the only true God, and later on and so on,.. they shall become three persons composing the only true God. adding the holy spirit.

    He is disregarding the other passages of the Bible that did not in conformity with his stand. He loved very much the verses he thought and understood wrongfully.

    The Son, said: “my Father is the only true God”

    Jammin, said: No! You (the Son) and the Father are the only true God.

    Here is another question to Jammin: ” Who is the only true God, the Father or the Son?

    You owe me a lot of answer, remember?


    john 17.3 refers to the father.

    but you are not telling the whole truth boy.
    john 17.3 is not the whole bible.

    let me post john 1.18
    John 1:18

    New International Version (NIV)

    18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[a] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

    the bible said that. Christ is God.
    what you are telling is a LIE

    #316593
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Good answer jammin' :;):

    The two are one, that's what Jesus said.

    John 10:30
    “I and the Father are one.”

    #316595
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 17 2012,17:07)
    To add LU:

    Οὐδεὶς (Oudeis)  The greek word used for “no one” or “no man” in the KJV.  Is used through the bible.

    Question:
    The same word is also used here:

    Young's Literal Translation: Rev 19:12
    and his eyes are as a flame of fire, and upon his head are many diadems — having a name written that no one hath known, except himself

    So than does that mean the “father” as you cliam doesn't know that name as well?

    Than does this mean you believe that the Father is not omniscience, since there is something that He doesn't know??


    Dennison,
    Context will tell you if 'no one' knows or 'no one' can, means 'no man' or 'no one' in the fullest sense.

    In Rev 5, the context tells us that the Lamb can open the scroll because He overcame and was slain. It also tells us that He was the only one in heaven or on earth or under the earth that was qualified to open the scroll. The setting here is in heaven right at the throne, in the presence of God the Father. For the Father to be included as one who is not qualified to open the scroll is not something that demonstrates a lack of power or knowledge, it just shows that the qualifications that the Father set for opening the scroll fit only one person who had to overcome and be slain.

    Rev 5 does not say that 'no one, except the Father.' It says 'no one in heaven, or on earth, or under the earth,' which would include the Father Himself.

    Here are the translations that bear witness to this:

    New International Version (©1984)
    But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it.

    New Living Translation (©2007)
    But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll and read it.

    English Standard Version (©2001)
    And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it,

    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.

    International Standard Version (©2008)
    No one in heaven, on earth, or under the earth could open the scroll or look inside it.

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
    And there was none able in Heaven or in Earth, nor any under The Earth, to open the scroll and to open its seals and look upon it.

    GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
    No one in heaven, on earth, or under the earth could open the scroll or look inside it.

    American Standard Version
    And no one in the heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth, was able to open the book, or to look thereon.

    Darby Bible Translation
    And no one was able in the heaven, or upon the earth, or underneath the earth, to open the book, or to regard it.

    English Revised Version
    And no one in the heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth, was able to open the book, or to look thereon.

    Weymouth New Testament
    But no one in Heaven, or on earth, or under the earth, was able to open the book or look into it.

    World English Bible
    No one in heaven above, or on the earth, or under the earth, was able to open the book, or to look in it.

    Young's Literal Translation
    and no one was able in the heaven, nor upon the earth, nor under the earth, to open the scroll, nor to behold it.

    The fact is, the Father held the scroll but did not open it and only the Lamb was said to be qualified to open the scroll. The Lamb overcame and was slain, the Father was not slain.

    The OT pattern for the perfect sacrifice was to sacrifice the firstborn, not the parent of the firstborn. Abraham was not asked to sacrifice himself but was asked to sacrifice his son.

    #316596
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Jesus was the only one worthy to open the scroll. What most are missing out here is who wrote it. Because the one who wrote it would not need to open the scroll because they already know what is in the scroll.

    Unless of course you think the scroll just popped out of nothing. Like the Atheist who believes that the universe came from nothing.

    Sorry but magic doesn't cut it for me. I like to see real answers because no matter what the trick looks like, when you investigate, there are usually ropes and pulleys.

    So who wrote the scroll, well it its likely that the one who knows when Jesus will return is a likely candidate. So why exactly would the Father need to open the scroll? And who in their right mind would say that the only true God is not worthy? Rather it is God who knows all things. And only those who are worthy can understand his plans.

    #316597
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 18 2012,00:51)

    Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 17 2012,16:07)
    Young's Literal Translation: Rev 19:12
    and his eyes are as a flame of fire, and upon his head are many diadems — having a name written that no one hath known, except himself

    So than does that mean the “father” as you cliam doesn't know that name as well?


    Good point, D.

    Kathi must also consider 1 Cor 15:27……..
    Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

    Obviously, the same would apply concerning the scroll, ie:  When it says NO ONE in heaven could open the scroll, it is clear this doesn't include God, who sealed the scroll in the first place, or His Lamb, who was obviously also “someone in heaven” who DID open the scroll.  :)


    Mike,
    Show me where the Father was slain and then you will have proven that He was also qualified to open the scroll that He sealed. Otherwise, He was not qualified to open the scroll according to the qualifications that He, Himself established. This does not make Him less powerful than the Lamb, it just makes Him not qualified as one who had to overcome the temptation to sin and be slain. There are many things that the Lamb did that the Father did not do and many things that the Father does that the Lamb did not do. That only speaks to their different roles, not to their equality in nature. They are both equally theos in nature.

    #316598
    Lightenup
    Participant

    t8,
    I don't get the impression that anyone is missing out on who wrote the scroll. The point that I am making is that the Father cannot also be the Lamb as Dennison teaches and the fact that the Lamb is only qualified to open the scroll and not the Father demonstrates that they are not the same person.

    #316599
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Yes that is right. The Father cannot also be the Lamb. He is wrong if he says that.

    #316600
    Lightenup
    Participant

    t8,
    Isn't the qualification of opening the scroll to actually be the one who was slain? Was the Father qualified to open the scroll, no…the Father was not slain. This does not make Him less God, or less powerful.

    #316621
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (limjunus @ Oct. 18 2012,01:09)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 18 2012,16:26)
    there is ONE GOD THE FATHER

    there is one GOD THE ONLY SON!

    TWO persons
    but one in nature, GOD.
    She's asking how many GODS, right?

    Please answer HER question as she asked it.

    HOW MANY GODS, JAMMIN?


    Mike,

    He will not answer.

    He will answer the wrong way.

    He will never answer your question faithfully.

    He even despising and discarding the Son, teaching that the only true God, is the Father alone and not the Son.

    See his style, see how he cheated himself by not putting the words “only true God, the Father.

    He is insisting at any rate that the Son is truly God and also the Father is truly God.

    He is insisting two persons composing the only true God, and later on and so on,.. they shall become three persons composing the only true God. adding the holy spirit.

    He is disregarding the other passages of the Bible that did not in conformity with his stand. He loved very much the verses he thought and understood wrongfully.

    The Son, said: “my Father is the only true God”

    Jammin, said: No! You (the Son) and the Father are the only true God.

    Here is another question to Jammin: ” Who is the only true God, the Father or the Son?

    You owe me a lot of answer, remember?


    Good post, limjunis. All good points.

    #316622
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 18 2012,05:57)
    to answer your question
    my ANSWER IS who is the GOD that you are referring to?
    if you say the father, my answer is ONE
    if you say the son, my answer is ONE


    :D   Just answer the question AS KATHI POSTED IT, jammin.  Are you incapable of doing that?  Here it is again:

    how many 'theos' are to be known, believed in, served, honored, and praised in order to have eternal salvation?

    How many, jammin?  One?  Two?  Three?  More than three?

    #316623
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 18 2012,05:59)
    18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[a] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.


    Actually, John 1:18 speaks of an only begotten god, who is in close relationship to the Father.

    Your version is bunk, and not even close to the teaching of the Greek words of 1:18.

    #316624
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 18 2012,06:15)
    Good answer jammin' :;):

    The two are one, that's what Jesus said.

    John 10:30
    “I and the Father are one.”


    Jesus also hoped for some of us to become one with them. Will those ones ALSO be God Almighty?

    #316626
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 18 2012,06:44)
    I like to see real answers because no matter what the trick looks like, when you investigate, there are usually ropes and pulleys.


    Amen.

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 18 2012,06:44)
    So who wrote the scroll, well it its likely that the one who knows when Jesus will return is a likely candidate.


    I emphasized “one” because there is truly only ONE who knows that day and hour.  Not even Jesus Christ, the holy servant of God, knows.

    #316628
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    Jesus was speaking of being in unity in what the followers 'know'…truth in the Father and the Son, not in unity within the highest authority.

    #316630
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 18 2012,06:44)
    This does not make Him less powerful than the Lamb, it just makes Him not qualified as one who had to overcome the temptation to sin and be slain. There are many things that the Lamb did that the Father did not do and many things that the Father does that the Lamb did not do. That only speaks to their different roles, not to their equality in nature. They are both equally theos in nature.


    That sounds a lot better than what it seemed like you were saying before.

    Perhaps Dennison and I misunderstood you before, but it seemed as if you were saying Jesus was more capable than his own God at certain things.

    But I agree that if the qualifications have to do with being tempted and overcoming that temptation, then Jesus is qualified and his God is not, for God cannot even be tempted in the first place.

    #316631
    Lightenup
    Participant

    :;):

    #316632
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 18 2012,09:03)
    Mike,

    Jesus was speaking of being in unity in what the followers 'know'…truth in the Father and the Son, not in unity within the highest authority.


    Show me the scriptural words from which you gain your understanding that “one with the Father” means a certain thing in the case of Jesus, and something different in the case of the elect.

    #316636
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,
    This context of being 'one' has to do with works/authority:

    Quote

         22At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; 23it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. 24The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

    30“I and the Father are one.”

    This context about being one in regards to Christians is about knowledge and understanding, belief, being in Their name, but has nothing to do with them doing the 'works' of the Father or Son:

    Quote
    John 17:6“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7“Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9“I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11“I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, [/B]keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, [/B]that they may be one even as We are.[/B] 12“While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

    The Disciples in the World

         13“But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves. 14“I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15“I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. 16“They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17“Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. 18“As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19“For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in[/B] truth.[/B]

         20“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

    Let's look at the different phrases:

    Regarding the Father and the Son:

    John 10:30
    I and the Father are one.

    John 17:11
    so that they may be one as we are one.
    (This regards being in one name.)

    John 17:21  that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

    I do not see the unity of believer's as one WITH Them but one AS They are…all in one name,  or as one AS being IN Them. Do you know of one of these 'unity' statements that says we are one WITH them?

    #316640
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 18 2012,09:46)
    I do not see the unity of believer's as one WITH Them but one AS They are…all in one name, or as one AS being IN Them. Do you know of one of these 'unity' statements that says we are one WITH them?


    Well of course YOU don't see it, Kathi. You are blinded by your desire for Jesus to be a second Almighty God, and so naturally you will understand one use of “one” in one way, and the other use of “one” in a totally different way – because that is the way you WANT to see it.

    But truthfully, there is no secret, hidden difference between Jesus being “one” with his God, and the disciples also being “one” with their God and His servant Jesus Christ.

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