John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 1,041 through 1,060 (of 25,995 total)
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  • #103218
    pulivarthy
    Participant

    adam & gene,

    word (child) was existing in the bossom of God.The God used to have inner conversation with his child,word,messiah,craftmanship of God, and he was planned as a sacrificial redeemer by appearing as fleshy and bloody human being.God already set salvation plan as God can know everything in advance, while predetermining everything and planning accordingly as per the dispensation of times.Therefore,the God ,our father made him become flesh to take his foreordained portfolios : a king, a priest, a prophert/messiah.
    pulivarthy

    #103221
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 28 2008,17:20)

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 28 2008,15:47)
    Hi Gene.

    If “Before Abraham I am” means that 'before Abraham I was planned', then the God who said he was the “I AM that I AM” would be the God of the “I am planned I am planned”.


    t8,

    You are assuming that the “I am” in this passage is the SAME “I AM” of the OT which was a proper name God gave himself.  In the context of the NT it does not appear to be a proper name at all.

    Mandy


    Actually that is debatable because it was YHWH that said “I am who I am”. He was describing himself and told Moses to say tell them that I am sent you, which would be like me saying, tell them that the handsome one sent you if you get my drift. OK, I am being very optimistic.

    But even if it is a name or not, the point is that I am today in English means that you exist. In Hebrew I think “I am that I am” means the everexisting one. But I would need to check that.

    In Greek, ego eimi was a common use of words. In Luke 1:19, the angel Gabriel said, “Ego eimi Gabriel.” In John 9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Jesus said, “Ego eimi.” In Acts 10:21, Peter said, “Behold, ego eimi (I am) he whom ye seek.” None of these uses were used to say that they existed in God's mind somewhere in the past.

    Jesus also regularly used ego eimi. He used the phrase “ego eimi” at least twenty times and yet, in no instance was he saying that he didn't exist yet, or that he existed only as a concept. e.g., In John 8:58, Jesus said, “I am the bread of life”.

    #103223
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 28 2008,20:15)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2008,16:05)
    T8…point is you do not know in what way he was before Abraham, was it in Gods plan or was it he existed as a being. You honestly do not know its pure conjecture on your part. Don't you think Jesus had enough sense to simply say i was alive and existed before Abraham was Born, if that was his point he wanted to make.Why is all your proof texts so vague and not one specifically say Jesus was a live person or being before He ever came to earth. Why is that nowhere in scripture, don't you think that would be very important point to make about him. Why leave it out and leave it to conjectures and vague interpretations. IMO

    Preexistences view of Jesus is He is a GOD MAN, my view is He is a Man just like me in every way without any advantage of any kind and the same GOD who saved Him can Save Me also in the same way, I am a JOINT HEIR with him He is my elder brother who the Father placed over me as well as the whole family of God the Father. He is the perfect example of how to be saved, and it is the same way he was saved, and it was all by the (GRACE) of GOD.

    Peace to you and yours………..gene


    Amen to that post brother Gene, what a wonderful post it is. If they realise they can not make Jesus 'a god' or 'a demi-god' but as a brother to us.

    Thanks and love to you
    Adam


    Everything you just said could also point to what you said Gene. There is nothing the verse to say that “I am” means that he existed as a thought before Abraham either and therefore it to is conjecture if you believe your own argument.

    It's just that you choose to believe that view even though the text doesn't describe that view at all.

    What other verses in scripture that use “ego eimi”, use it to mean existing as a thought or plan, but not actually existing in person. Feel free to list them all in a post in this discussion.

    I look forward to seeing the list.

    #103233
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 28 2008,22:26)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 28 2008,17:20)

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 28 2008,15:47)
    Hi Gene.

    If “Before Abraham I am” means that 'before Abraham I was planned', then the God who said he was the “I AM that I AM” would be the God of the “I am planned I am planned”.


    t8,

    You are assuming that the “I am” in this passage is the SAME “I AM” of the OT which was a proper name God gave himself.  In the context of the NT it does not appear to be a proper name at all.

    Mandy


    Actually that is debatable because it was YHWH that said “I am who I am”. He was describing himself and told Moses to say tell them that I am sent you, which would be like me saying, tell them that the handsome one sent you if you get my drift. OK, I am being very optimistic.

    But even if it is a name or not, the point is that I am today in English means that you exist. In Hebrew I think “I am that I am” means the everexisting one. But I would need to check that.

    In Greek, ego eimi was a common use of words. In Luke 1:19, the angel Gabriel said, “Ego eimi Gabriel.” In John 9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Jesus said, “Ego eimi.” In Acts 10:21, Peter said, “Behold, ego eimi (I am) he whom ye seek.” None of these uses were used to say that they existed in God's mind somewhere in the past.

    Jesus also regularly used ego eimi. He used the phrase “ego eimi” at least twenty times and yet, in no instance was he saying that he didn't exist yet, or that he existed only as a concept. e.g., In John 8:58, Jesus said, “I am the bread of life”.


    Hi t8,

    Thanks for your post.

    If Jesus was saying that he preexisted in the “I am” statement, he sure chose a strange time to introduce that concept. There was no explaination given after that statement either. All is pretty vague, if you ask me.

    Also, it's difficult to use other examples of the words “I am” as I believe they apply to something different. Taken in context, you want to believe that Jesus meant to say he existed before Abraham physically OR spiritually OR in some real way, but we can only infer that by such a statement. It's not an absolute proof of preexistence, I guess is what I'm trying to say. He could have very well meant that he existed as God's potential Son. Just because the other examples of the use of “I am” doesn't pan out that way doesn't mean it couldn't be true.

    The use of “I am” in the “…before Abraham I am….” context appears to be a special construction of words. It is unlikely that Jesus would be claiming to be God or even a preexistent thing at this time in the NT story. It doesn't ring true with the tenor of the NT, imo. It certainly does not ring true with the tenor of the OT at all, imo.

    Thanks,
    Mandy

    #103248
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T8…..> according to Jeff Benners Mechanical translation of Genesis, the name of Lord in Hebrew is (HE EXISTS) And if we add Elohim or GOD to it we come up with Lord God or HE EXISTS WITH POWERS. This would be the correct way of understanding the LORD GOD> T8, You saying Jesus meant that in the new testament is pure conjecture on your part.

    When they came to arrest Jesus in the garden they ask who was Jesus, an He said I am, People try to make that mean He is God and insist that when the Roman guards fell back that represented some kind of proof, but in fact they came out to get Jesus expecting a fight and the term fall back is what they always did in preparation for battle Roman soldiers grouped themselves. When the Soldiers heard Jesus answer and saw there was a group with Him the full well expected a battle, so they fell back in formation for a battle. Those Roman soldiers would have never fell back in fear of the words (I AM) they never even heard of the (I AM) so why would they do that then, only one answer they were reading for a battle.

    This whole thing of making that words I AM in the new testament something supernatural is pure speculation and conjecture with (NO) proof whatsoever. To use the word of Jesus telling the Pharisees (before Abraham, i am) is also conjecture and weak at best. Preexistences like trinitarians all use weak or vague scriptures to support their theologies and Have to go to this never ending GREEK meanings for words which show meanings of those words that actually disprove there points in many cases, Question, why is it so heard to prove for you people, why except something that is not specifically addressed in the scriptures anyway. And if indeed Jesus was a preexisting being I really believe it would have been made very clear in scripture so there would be no doubt don't you, and if it isn't why (ASSUME) it then.

    peace to you and yours……….gene

    #103331
    pulivarthy
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 29 2008,04:55)
    T8…..> according to Jeff Benners Mechanical translation of Genesis, the name of Lord in Hebrew is (HE EXISTS) And if we add Elohim or GOD to it we come up with Lord God or HE EXISTS WITH POWERS. This would be the correct way of understanding the LORD GOD> T8, You saying Jesus meant that in the new testament is pure conjecture on your part.

    When they came to arrest Jesus in the garden they ask who was Jesus, an He said I am, People try to make that mean He is God and insist that when the Roman guards fell back that represented some kind of proof, but in fact they came out to get Jesus expecting a fight and the term fall back is what they always did in preparation for battle Roman soldiers grouped themselves. When the Soldiers heard Jesus answer and saw there was a group with Him the full well expected a battle, so they fell back in formation for a battle. Those Roman soldiers would have never fell back in fear of the words (I AM) they never even heard of the (I AM) so why would they do that then, only one answer they were reading for a battle.

    This whole thing of making that words I AM in the new testament something supernatural is pure speculation and conjecture with (NO) proof whatsoever. To use the word of Jesus telling the Pharisees (before Abraham, i am) is also conjecture and weak at best. Preexistences like trinitarians all use weak or vague scriptures to support their theologies and Have to go to this never ending GREEK meanings for words which show meanings of those words that actually disprove there points in many cases, Question, why is it so heard to prove for you people, why except something that is not specifically addressed in the scriptures anyway. And if indeed Jesus was a preexisting being I really believe it would have been made very clear in scripture so there would be no doubt don't you, and if it isn't why (ASSUME) it then.

    peace to you and yours……….gene


    hi gene,
    15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God.
    He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,[from colossians :1]

    scripture is clear on preexistence of Jesus. I pray that you will come out of that notion.

    with love,
    pulivarthy

    #103353
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Pulivarthy……….If it is so clear why has it been argued for centuries then. I have not found it clearly stated in any bible i have read. You can not make the point that Jesus preexisted without adding to the text some conjecture and that to me is forcing the text to say something it does not specifically say.

    Not to mention there would be no point for God to do it that way. What would the perfection of an all ready perfect being prove to us, what did He truly have to risk and to overcome seeing He really was not (TRULY) the same as us. The whole idea of Jesus being a preexistent being goes against the whole thing that God wanted to show us and it was that He could take a 100% purely HUMAN MAN who had no other advantage then us and perfect Him and raise Him from the dead. Now that proves something to all humanity, Not this idea of some super being doing it, what does that prove to me or anyone else for that matter. This whole concept of separating Jesus from our (exact) likeness is totally against what God was showing man kind. Creating Jesus as a GOD or Super beings of preexistence origins is nothing more than IDOLATRY. It creates the man of sin spoken of in 2 Thes, and Just as it says Jesus will destory this (LIE) that people have come to believe when He returns, It will be the first thing He will do. He will (abolish) this lie completely. Many will be shocked when He tell them He is Not a GOD and He did not preexist as a being before His berth . IMO

    peace to you……….gene

    #103385
    dirtyknections
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 30 2008,03:15)
    Pulivarthy……….If it is so clear why has it been argued for centuries then. I have not found it clearly stated in any bible i have read. You can not make the point that Jesus preexisted without adding to the text some conjecture and that to me is forcing the text to say something it does not specifically say.

    Not to mention there would be no point for God to do it that way. What would the perfection of an all ready perfect being prove to us, what did He truly have to risk and to overcome seeing He really was not (TRULY) the same as us. The whole idea of Jesus being a preexistent being goes against the whole thing that God wanted to show us and it was that He could take a 100% purely HUMAN MAN who had no other advantage then us and perfect Him and raise Him from the dead. Now that proves something to all humanity, Not this idea of some super being doing it, what does that prove to me or anyone else for that matter. This whole concept of separating Jesus from our (exact) likeness is totally against what God was showing man kind. Creating Jesus as a GOD or Super beings of preexistence origins is nothing more than IDOLATRY. It creates the man of sin spoken of in 2 Thes,  and Just as it says Jesus will destory this (LIE) that people have come to believe when He returns, It will be the first thing He will do. He will (abolish) this lie completely. Many will be shocked when He tell them He is Not a GOD and He did not preexist as a being before His berth . IMO

    peace to you……….gene


    i'm sorry Brother Gene..but you seem to get further and further away from scripture with each post ???

    Ok..lemme see you rationalize this line of reasoning..here goes

    Genesis 1:26
    Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

    I know you don't believe in the trinity so who was God talking to in this scripture?

    John 1:2-3..2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    If GOD was not talking to Jesus in Genesis then explain the above verse?

    John 3:17…17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

    Why use the word send? Does that not imply he came from somewhere? If what you say is true shouldn't this verse read more like…”For God did not have his son born into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him”

    1 Corinthians 10:1-4 … 1For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

    Explain how they did this if Christ was not yet in physical existence?

    Colossians 1:15-17… 15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    I'm sure you have a good answer for the last question so what does verse 16 mean here?

    Philippians 2:7… 7but made himself nothing,
    taking the very nature[a] of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.

    Does not the phrase, “made himself nothing, taking the very nature”…imply that he had another nature before? If not, why the use of the words “made” and “taking”? Does not this verse clearly show a physical CHANGE took place?

    Just for reference:

    nature- 1 a: the inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing : essence b: disposition, temperament

    Notice that word “constitution”..lets reference that

    constitution- 2 a: the physical makeup of the individual especially with respect to the health, strength, and appearance of the body b: the structure, composition, physical makeup, or nature of something

    Now think about this for a moment…Could this scripture at Phillipians be true if Jesus did not Pre-exist?

    Hebrews 1:1-2…1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

    Same question as the last?

    Brother Gene..no offence…and I really don't hope you take this personal..but you really have to rid yourself of your exeigesis..its starting to shine thru really clear

    #103388
    dirtyknections
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2008,11:23)
    T8….I am not denying Jesus existed in the plan and will of God, but to try to makes it mean He was alive as a preexisting being is a presumption on your part, because if Jesus meant that He would simply said  I was alive and existed before Abraham as you would have liked it say, but He did not say that did he, so you force the text to conclude that.

    Don't you think that if Jesus was a preexisting being that somewhere in scripture it would Just say that PLAINLY, after all that would have been a very important point . Then we could all say as you preexistences do, that indeed he had some very great special powers and was not truly like we are and we could just ignore the Power of God in Him because He had that already and was able to save himself, and really didn't need GOD the Father then did He.

    What point would it be to send a supernatural being and have him walk perfect and then try to compare Him to Us when in fact He was nothing like us at all really. You whole premises destroys true Faith in the ONE and ONLY GOD, it switched it to Jesus as the creator and sustainer and of all things and pushes GOD the Father completely out of the Picture , this Jesus never did, but trinitarians and preexistences do.

    I believe this is creating Jesus as the MAN OF SIN spoken of in 2thes. You are indeed portraying Him as very God and creator of all the universe which is Idolatry  
    in origin and is contrary to the commandments of GOD. “YOU SHALL HAVE (NO) OTHER GOD BESIDES ME.”  I believe even trinitarians like WJ is more accurate in understand that Jesus did not create the world then preexistences . You are simpling forcing the text to meat you ideologies, YOU HAVE NO SPECIFIC STATEMENT showing Jesus did indeed Preexist his berth as a being of some kind and to incest that Him saying before Abraham i am is vague at best, and if he did show his name and what did he do in the old testament writings. Certainly there would be some, giving us his true preexisting identity right. But the only thing i see is GOD said He (ALONE) created everything and GOD the Father takes (FULL) creating for all things, and even said He shared His Glory with (NO) MAN> You need to quite reading into text things that are not (SPECIFICALLY) stated. IMO

    peace and love……….gene


    For the record you grossly misrepresent what we are sayinf Brother Gene..lemme put this in simple terms for you

    -Jesus is GOD's Son

    -He was the 1st of his Fathers Creations and he helped his Father create everything we see today

    -He was in a glorified position prior to his coming to earth. That is why he prayed for his Father to give him the glory he had before he came, when he returned.

    -In order for us to be saved from the enemy ''death”, GOD sent Jesus to die for mankind as atonement for our sins.

    -At his human birth, Jesus became a MAN. He was NOT a supernatural being.

    -He was different from us in one very important way…HE WAS BORN PEREFECT…And with the help of GOD's spirit that dwelled in him FULLY, he was able to remain PERFECTLY FAITHFUL until his death. Therefore, his human life ended unblemished..

    I had to clear this up because your last post does not represent what I or anybody else in this thread who believes jesus pre-existed…BELIEVES

    #103398
    pulivarthy
    Participant

    hi dirty connections,
    Thank you for befitting quotations to Mr. Gene for convincing him on preexistence of Jesus.I pray thay Go, the father will certainly and on one day dispel all his false beliefs(non-trinty) and his own annoted conjectures to the scripture given unto us.
    with love in christ,
    pulivarthy.

    #103399
    pulivarthy
    Participant

    hi dirty connections,
    Thank you for befitting quotations to Mr. Gene for convincing him on preexistence of Jesus.I pray that GOD, the father will certainly and on one day dispel all his false beliefs(non-trinty) and his own annoted conjectures to the scripture given unto us.
    with love in christ,
    pulivarthy.

    #103402
    Tiffany
    Participant

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Aug. 30 2008,14:41)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2008,11:23)
    T8….I am not denying Jesus existed in the plan and will of God, but to try to makes it mean He was alive as a preexisting being is a presumption on your part, because if Jesus meant that He would simply said  I was alive and existed before Abraham as you would have liked it say, but He did not say that did he, so you force the text to conclude that.

    Don't you think that if Jesus was a preexisting being that somewhere in scripture it would Just say that PLAINLY, after all that would have been a very important point . Then we could all say as you preexistences do, that indeed he had some very great special powers and was not truly like we are and we could just ignore the Power of God in Him because He had that already and was able to save himself, and really didn't need GOD the Father then did He.

    What point would it be to send a supernatural being and have him walk perfect and then try to compare Him to Us when in fact He was nothing like us at all really. You whole premises destroys true Faith in the ONE and ONLY GOD, it switched it to Jesus as the creator and sustainer and of all things and pushes GOD the Father completely out of the Picture , this Jesus never did, but trinitarians and preexistences do.

    I believe this is creating Jesus as the MAN OF SIN spoken of in 2thes. You are indeed portraying Him as very God and creator of all the universe which is Idolatry  
    in origin and is contrary to the commandments of GOD. “YOU SHALL HAVE (NO) OTHER GOD BESIDES ME.”  I believe even trinitarians like WJ is more accurate in understand that Jesus did not create the world then preexistences . You are simpling forcing the text to meat you ideologies, YOU HAVE NO SPECIFIC STATEMENT showing Jesus did indeed Preexist his berth as a being of some kind and to incest that Him saying before Abraham i am is vague at best, and if he did show his name and what did he do in the old testament writings. Certainly there would be some, giving us his true preexisting identity right. But the only thing i see is GOD said He (ALONE) created everything and GOD the Father takes (FULL) creating for all things, and even said He shared His Glory with (NO) MAN> You need to quite reading into text things that are not (SPECIFICALLY) stated. IMO

    peace and love……….gene


    For the record you grossly misrepresent what we are sayinf Brother Gene..lemme put this in simple terms for you

    -Jesus is GOD's Son

    -He was the 1st of his Fathers Creations and he helped his Father create everything we see today

    -He was in a glorified position prior to his coming to earth. That is why he prayed for his Father to give him the glory he had before he came, when he returned.

    -In order for us to be saved from the enemy ''death”, GOD sent Jesus to die for mankind as atonement for our sins.

    -At his human birth, Jesus became a MAN. He was NOT a supernatural being.

    -He was different from us in one very important way…HE WAS BORN PEREFECT…And with the help of GOD's spirit that dwelled in him FULLY, he was able to remain PERFECTLY FAITHFUL until his death. Therefore, his human life ended unblemished..

    I had to clear this up because your last post does not represent what I or anybody else in this thread who believes jesus pre-existed…BELIEVES


    Hello! Think that Gen will ever understand that Jesus was created by God before the world was?
    I am happy that you and a few others do understand, shows Gods Holy Spirit is working in us.
    Peaxe and Love Irene

    #103441
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To All……..thanks for the concern, I do believe Jesus was certanly in the plan and will of God before the foundations of the world was ever made. But as far as his existence outside of that plan and will i do not, and that plan and will included GOD Creating another ADAM, who was born at the right time for that specific purpose GOD created Him for, and did not exist before that time. AS Peter plainly said, to those who have ears to hear, let them hear. IMO

    peace to all………gene

    #103446
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 31 2008,06:42)
    To All……..thanks for the concern, I do believe Jesus was certanly in the plan and will of God before the foundations of the world was ever made. But as far as his existence outside of that plan and will i do not, and that plan and will included GOD Creating another ADAM, who was born at the right time for that specific purpose GOD created Him for, and did not exist before that time. AS Peter plainly said, to those who have ears to hear, let them hear. IMO

    peace to all………gene


    Amen, I agree!

    Mandy

    #103474
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    Quote (Tiffany @ Aug. 30 2008,19:06)

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Aug. 30 2008,14:41)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2008,11:23)
    T8….I am not denying Jesus existed in the plan and will of God, but to try to makes it mean He was alive as a preexisting being is a presumption on your part, because if Jesus meant that He would simply said  I was alive and existed before Abraham as you would have liked it say, but He did not say that did he, so you force the text to conclude that.

    Don't you think that if Jesus was a preexisting being that somewhere in scripture it would Just say that PLAINLY, after all that would have been a very important point . Then we could all say as you preexistences do, that indeed he had some very great special powers and was not truly like we are and we could just ignore the Power of God in Him because He had that already and was able to save himself, and really didn't need GOD the Father then did He.

    What point would it be to send a supernatural being and have him walk perfect and then try to compare Him to Us when in fact He was nothing like us at all really. You whole premises destroys true Faith in the ONE and ONLY GOD, it switched it to Jesus as the creator and sustainer and of all things and pushes GOD the Father completely out of the Picture , this Jesus never did, but trinitarians and preexistences do.

    I believe this is creating Jesus as the MAN OF SIN spoken of in 2thes. You are indeed portraying Him as very God and creator of all the universe which is Idolatry  
    in origin and is contrary to the commandments of GOD. “YOU SHALL HAVE (NO) OTHER GOD BESIDES ME.”  I believe even trinitarians like WJ is more accurate in understand that Jesus did not create the world then preexistences . You are simpling forcing the text to meat you ideologies, YOU HAVE NO SPECIFIC STATEMENT showing Jesus did indeed Preexist his berth as a being of some kind and to incest that Him saying before Abraham i am is vague at best, and if he did show his name and what did he do in the old testament writings. Certainly there would be some, giving us his true preexisting identity right. But the only thing i see is GOD said He (ALONE) created everything and GOD the Father takes (FULL) creating for all things, and even said He shared His Glory with (NO) MAN> You need to quite reading into text things that are not (SPECIFICALLY) stated. IMO

    peace and love……….gene


    For the record you grossly misrepresent what we are sayinf Brother Gene..lemme put this in simple terms for you

    -Jesus is GOD's Son

    -He was the 1st of his Fathers Creations and he helped his Father create everything we see today

    -He was in a glorified position prior to his coming to earth. That is why he prayed for his Father to give him the glory he had before he came, when he returned.

    -In order for us to be saved from the enemy ''death”, GOD sent Jesus to die for mankind as atonement for our sins.

    -At his human birth, Jesus became a MAN. He was NOT a supernatural being.

    -He was different from us in one very important way…HE WAS BORN PEREFECT…And with the help of GOD's spirit that dwelled in him FULLY, he was able to remain PERFECTLY FAITHFUL until his death. Therefore, his human life ended unblemished..

    I had to clear this up because your last post does not represent what I or anybody else in this thread who believes jesus pre-existed…BELIEVES


    Hello! Think that Gen will ever understand that Jesus was created by God before the world was?
    I am happy that you and a few others do understand, shows Gods Holy Spirit is working in us.
    Peaxe and Love Irene


    there is no “understanding” that which is false…. Christians have believed that Jesus is eternal and uncreated for thousands of years prior to this forum, and they will continue to do so into eternity… why? simply because it is the truth…

    The Nicene Creed
    I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;
    And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of his Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried; and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; and he shall come again, with glory, to judge both the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
    And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord, and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spake by the Prophets. And I believe one holy catholic and Apostolic Church; I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.

    AMEN.”

    …. lest anyone get hung up on the word “catholic”, this does not refer to the ROMAN Catholic Church, it (the word “catholic”) simply means “universal”…. the RCC does not have a copyright on the word “catholic” even though when we see that word, most of us equate “catholic” with “Roman Catholic”…. in fact when this statement of faith was written in the 4th century,the organization we recognize today as the RCC did not even exist.

    So people can very well call themselves “Christians” and still deny the doctrines of the Christian faith, it is a free country and people are quite free to be mistaken. But make no mistake about this: historically, Christianity has affirmed the eternality of the Son as well as the Trinity. People may deny these doctrines and for some strange reason want to call themselves Christians… after all, cults like the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, The Way International, etc etc etc all claim to be Christians or even “the only true Christians”, but really, they are pretenders, the false teachers teaching doctrines of demons and antichrist that we are warned about in the Scriptures, for if you deny these central, crucial, non-negotiable tenets of the Christian faith, you really aren't a Christian at all, not in the true historical sense of the term ….. and if believing these doctrines was decided upon as necessary requisite beliefs in order to be a Christian BY Christians themselves, well if Christians can't be the ones to decide who is a Christian and who isn't, then who can? The fact that so many want to claim the title “Christian” for themselves when their beliefs are SO far from historical Christianity's core beliefs, has sadly nearly emptied the word of any meaning at all…. kind of like how the word “Protestant” used to mean that someone held to a set of distinctive beliefs, until eventually the word became almost meaningless because people began to deny many of the doctrines held by the Reformers… sadly, so the same thing is happening today with so many people denying doctrines of the Christian faith, and calling themselves “Christian”…. just strange really….

    blessings,
    Ken

    #103476
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 31 2008,06:42)
    To All……..thanks for the concern, I do believe Jesus was certanly in the plan and will of God before the foundations of the world was ever made. But as far as his existence outside of that plan and will i do not, and that plan and will included GOD Creating another ADAM, who was born at the right time for that specific purpose GOD created Him for, and did not exist before that time. AS Peter plainly said, to those who have ears to hear, let them hear. IMO

    peace to all………gene


    Amen to that post my brother Gene. They should understand this simple truth that Jesus never existed as some being prior to his birth except in the mind and perfect plan of God otherwise they prove Mormonism which believes pre-existence of souls of men prior to their birth.

    Thanks and love to you
    Adam

    #103480
    dirtyknections
    Participant

    Quote (epistemaniac @ Aug. 31 2008,15:52)

    Quote (Tiffany @ Aug. 30 2008,19:06)

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Aug. 30 2008,14:41)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2008,11:23)
    T8….I am not denying Jesus existed in the plan and will of God, but to try to makes it mean He was alive as a preexisting being is a presumption on your part, because if Jesus meant that He would simply said  I was alive and existed before Abraham as you would have liked it say, but He did not say that did he, so you force the text to conclude that.

    Don't you think that if Jesus was a preexisting being that somewhere in scripture it would Just say that PLAINLY, after all that would have been a very important point . Then we could all say as you preexistences do, that indeed he had some very great special powers and was not truly like we are and we could just ignore the Power of God in Him because He had that already and was able to save himself, and really didn't need GOD the Father then did He.

    What point would it be to send a supernatural being and have him walk perfect and then try to compare Him to Us when in fact He was nothing like us at all really. You whole premises destroys true Faith in the ONE and ONLY GOD, it switched it to Jesus as the creator and sustainer and of all things and pushes GOD the Father completely out of the Picture , this Jesus never did, but trinitarians and preexistences do.

    I believe this is creating Jesus as the MAN OF SIN spoken of in 2thes. You are indeed portraying Him as very God and creator of all the universe which is Idolatry  
    in origin and is contrary to the commandments of GOD. “YOU SHALL HAVE (NO) OTHER GOD BESIDES ME.”  I believe even trinitarians like WJ is more accurate in understand that Jesus did not create the world then preexistences . You are simpling forcing the text to meat you ideologies, YOU HAVE NO SPECIFIC STATEMENT showing Jesus did indeed Preexist his berth as a being of some kind and to incest that Him saying before Abraham i am is vague at best, and if he did show his name and what did he do in the old testament writings. Certainly there would be some, giving us his true preexisting identity right. But the only thing i see is GOD said He (ALONE) created everything and GOD the Father takes (FULL) creating for all things, and even said He shared His Glory with (NO) MAN> You need to quite reading into text things that are not (SPECIFICALLY) stated. IMO

    peace and love……….gene


    For the record you grossly misrepresent what we are sayinf Brother Gene..lemme put this in simple terms for you

    -Jesus is GOD's Son

    -He was the 1st of his Fathers Creations and he helped his Father create everything we see today

    -He was in a glorified position prior to his coming to earth. That is why he prayed for his Father to give him the glory he had before he came, when he returned.

    -In order for us to be saved from the enemy ''death”, GOD sent Jesus to die for mankind as atonement for our sins.

    -At his human birth, Jesus became a MAN. He was NOT a supernatural being.

    -He was different from us in one very important way…HE WAS BORN PEREFECT…And with the help of GOD's spirit that dwelled in him FULLY, he was able to remain PERFECTLY FAITHFUL until his death. Therefore, his human life ended unblemished..

    I had to clear this up because your last post does not represent what I or anybody else in this thread who believes jesus pre-existed…BELIEVES


    Hello! Think that Gen will ever understand that Jesus was created by God before the world was?
    I am happy that you and a few others do understand, shows Gods Holy Spirit is working in us.
    Peaxe and Love Irene


    there is no “understanding” that which is false…. Christians have believed that Jesus is eternal and uncreated for thousands of years prior to this forum, and they will continue to do so into eternity… why? simply because it is the truth…

    The Nicene Creed
    I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;
        And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of his Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried; and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; and he shall come again, with glory, to judge both the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
        And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord, and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spake by the Prophets.  And I believe one holy catholic and Apostolic Church; I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.

    AMEN.”

    …. lest anyone get hung up on the word “catholic”, this does not refer to the ROMAN Catholic Church, it (the word “catholic”) simply means “universal”…. the RCC does not have a copyright on the word “catholic” even though when we see that word, most of us equate “catholic” with “Roman Catholic”…. in fact when this statement of faith was written in the 4th century,the organization we recognize today as the RCC did not even exist.

    So people can very well call themselves “Christians” and still deny the doctrines of the Christian faith, it is a free country and people are quite free to be mistaken. But make no mistake about this: historically, Christianity has affirmed the eternality of the Son as well as the Trinity. People may deny these doctrines and for some strange reason want to call themselves Christians… after all, cults like the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, The Way International, etc etc etc all claim to be Christians or even “the only true Christians”, but really, they are pretenders, the false teachers teaching doctrines of demons and antichrist that we are warned about in the Scriptures, for if you deny these central, crucial, non-negotiable tenets of the Christian faith, you really aren't a Christian at all, not in the true historical sense of the term ….. and if believing these doctrines was decided upon as necessary requisite beliefs in order to be a Christian BY Christians themselves, well if Christians can't be the ones to decide who is a Christian and who isn't, then who can? The fact that so many want to claim the title “Christian” for themselves when their beliefs are SO far from historical Christianity's core beliefs, has sadly nearly emptied the word of any meaning at all…. kind of like how the word “Protestant” used to mean that someone held to a set of distinctive beliefs, until eventually the word became almost meaningless because people began to deny many of the doctr
    ines held by the Reformers… sadly, so the same thing is happening today with so many people denying doctrines of the Christian faith, and calling themselves “Christian”…. just strange really….

    blessings,
    Ken


    Sorry brother…

    But the Nicene Creed holds NO weight with true followers of Christ. To put it bluntly Constantine and the creators of the Nicene creed are the alpha of that which Jesus prophesied here..

    Matthew 24:8-14
    8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

    9″Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

    2 Thessalonians 2:3
    3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

    1 Timothy 4:1-3
    1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.

    2 Thessalonians 2:3-12
    3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

    5Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

    So let me put what i am tryinf to say in a condensed form. Simply put the Scriptures foretold a great apostasy, or falling away from the true faith. The symbolic weeds of Jesus’ parable, that is, counterfeit Christians, would try to choke out the symbolic wheat, or true Christians, those anointed with God’s spirit. The parable reveals that the spread of false Christianity, promoted by God’s archenemy, the Devil, was about to begin, “while men were sleeping.” This took place after the death of Christ’s faithful apostles, during a period of spiritual drowsiness. (Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43; 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) As foretold by the apostles, many counterfeit Christians wormed their way into the fold. (Acts 20:29, 30; 1 Timothy 4:1-3; 2 Timothy 2:16-18; 2 Peter 2:1-3) John was the last of the apostles to die. In about the year 98 C.E., he wrote that “the last hour,” the final part of the apostolic period, had already commenced.—1 John 2:18, 19.

    With the alliance of religion and political power sealed by Roman emperor Constantine, the spiritual, doctrinal, and moral condition of Christendom declined. Many historians agree that “the triumph of the Church during the fourth century” was, from the Christian point of view, “a disaster.” ‘Christendom lost her high moral level’ and accepted many practices and philosophies from paganism, such as “the cult of Mary” and the adoration of the “saints,” as well as the concept of the Trinity.

    #103481
    dirtyknections
    Participant

    Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 31 2008,16:11)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 31 2008,06:42)
    To All……..thanks for the concern, I do believe Jesus was certanly in the plan and will of God before the foundations of the world was ever made. But as far as his existence outside of that plan and will i do not, and that plan and will included GOD Creating another ADAM, who was born at the right time for that specific purpose GOD created Him for, and did not exist before that time. AS Peter plainly said, to those who have ears to hear, let them hear. IMO

    peace to all………gene


    Amen to that post my brother Gene. They should understand this simple truth that Jesus never existed as some being prior to his birth except in the mind and perfect plan of God otherwise they prove Mormonism which believes pre-existence of souls of men prior to their birth.

    Thanks and love to you
    Adam


    Again…another grossly wrong interpretation of our beliefs…

    #103500
    Oxy
    Participant

    Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 31 2008,18:11)
    Amen to that post my brother Gene. They should understand this simple truth that Jesus never existed as some being prior to his birth except in the mind and perfect plan of God otherwise they prove Mormonism which believes pre-existence of souls of men prior to their birth.

    Thanks and love to you
    Adam


    Hi Adam, can you explain these verses to me please.

    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
    Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
    Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
    Joh 1:5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it.
    Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God; his name was John.
    Joh 1:7 This one came as a witness, to bear witness concerning the Light, so that all might believe through him.
    Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
    Joh 1:9 He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world.
    Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and the world did not know Him.
    Joh 1:11 He came to His own, and His own received Him not.
    Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name,

    The above verses clearly show the pre-existence of Jesus as the Word of God who was there from the beginning.

    Also

    Jer 1:5 Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I consecrated you, and I ordained you a prophet to the nations.

    Clearly showing pre-existence.

    #103502
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (epistemaniac @ Aug. 31 2008,15:52)
    well if Christians can't be the ones to decide who is a Christian and who isn't, then who can?


    Thank God this isn't true!!

    The Lord knows who's are his. Man cannot know the heart of another man.

    Mandy

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