John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 10,561 through 10,580 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #313962
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The Jewish leaders replied, “We have a law, and according to our law he ought to die, because he claimed to be the Son of God!” (John 19:7)

    I don't see the charge that he claimed to be YHWH or God. That would have been an easier conviction don't you think.

    #313965
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 25 2012,22:41)
    Jesus WAS killed because the Pharisees believed that He blasphemed:

    Mak 14:60Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” 61But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.

    Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?”

    62“I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

    63The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64“You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”

    They all condemned him as worthy of death.
    65Then some began to spit at him; they blindfolded him, struck him with their fists, and said, “Prophesy!” And the guards took him and beat him.


    Kathi,

    Jesus was killed because the Pharisees feared the Romans more than they believed Jesus to the Son of God.

    The high priest declared it was better that one man die than the country. He meant one thing while Jehovah used him to say another.

    They might have used a trumped up charge of blaspheme to accomplish that goal.

    The Jews also teach the Messiah is the Son of God. They are not calling him Jehovah when they so teach.

    #313966
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 26 2012,03:49)
    limjunus,
    From what you say, you do NOT believe in the literal Son of God which is the foundational truth of the church. The literal son would be the 'like begat like' type, the very God of/from very God, Light of Light.


    Lightenup,

    To make it clear.

    “I do not believe that Jesus Christ is the only true God.

    I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, the Christ, sent by God.

    Jesus Christ is separated from God and have an independent characteristic for being humankind and not in the position of Celestial Supreme Being (true God).

    JESUS SENT BY GOD (commanded to go), meaning, he was sent by other party with the higher authority than him.

    [B]If I will agree with you that Jesus is truly God, it shall come out that the true God is sending another true God, to go down here on earth.

    We could not denied that we should accept that there are two true Gods separately; One true God in heaven and another one true God, here on earth.[B]

    and we are not in accord with God, doctrines that there is one only true God.(Ref: Isa. 43:10 / John 17:3 / 1 Cor. 8:6).

    A very strong evidence that we are against the truth of God, and we are only justifying the judgement of God, against us.

    #313967
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 26 2012,11:07)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 25 2012,17:03)
    kathi,

    mike does not want to accpt that truth. for mike, Christ was not worshiped even if the bible said that.
    he will change the word worship and use his one and only NWT


    How do you say “one and only NWT” when I listed about SEVEN Bibles that DON'T say “worshiped” in John 9:38?  ???

    And even our resident joker Frank has a point on this one, for the word worship can mean:
    worship
    6. to render religious reverence and homage to.

    7. to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing).

    So, if you like the translation of “worshiped” better than “did obeisance to”, it's fine with me…………… just as long as you understand that nobody in scripture ever “worshiped” Jesus as if they thought he was the very God he was the Son of.  (That asinine, illogical theory didn't come along until many years after Jesus died.)

    And the fact that the Pharisees eye witnessed one of these acts of “worship” in John 9, and said nothing about it, tells us that it wasn't an act of “God-worship”, right?


    LOL

    that is true mike. you can use your one and ONLY NWT to support your imagination LOL

    you cant accpt that Christ is God just like the jews.

    that is written mike. dont you believe that?

    make your own version for u to have 2 versions
    one is the NWT and the other is your version LOL

    those versions can support your imagination LOL

    #313973
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 26 2012,03:53)

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 25 2012,01:29)
    Hi Jammin,

    Is not the bible consistent without?


    Ed,

    Did you mean, “consistent THROUGHOUT”?


    :D

    #313975
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 26 2012,10:03)
    ed,

    read the context. do not jump to the other verses and conclude that they have the same meaning.
    it is not a comic. the bible will not agree to your illusion and even commentaries.

    limjunus,

    you have illogical reasoning boy LOL
    paul said Christ is the only LORD. therefore, if i will follow your argument, the father is not LORD to you.
    you said that you cant read in 1 cor 8.6 that Christ is Lord as being the head of the church

    why dont you make your own version to support you imagination LOL

    kathi,

    mike does not want to accpt that truth. for mike, Christ was not worshiped even if the bible said that.
    he will change the word worship and use his one and only NWT LOL

    truly Christ was killed bec the jews do not want to accept that he is God.


    Hi Jammin

    Are you suggesting that the Jews (according to you) killed God?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #313977
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 26 2012,15:00)
    How do you say “one and only NWT” when I listed about SEVEN Bibles that DON'T say “worshiped” in John 9:38?  ???

    And even our resident joker Frank has a point on this one, for the word worship can mean:
    worship
    6. to render religious reverence and homage to.

    7. to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing).

    So, if you like the translation of “worshiped” better than “did obeisance to”, it's fine with me…………… just as long as you understand that nobody in scripture ever “worshiped” Jesus as if they thought he was the very God he was the Son of.  (That asinine, illogical theory didn't come along until many years after Jesus died.)

    And the fact that the Pharisees eye witnessed one of these acts of “worship” in John 9, and said nothing about it, tells us that it wasn't an act of “God-worship”, right?[/quote]
    LOL


    Mike,

    According to some other preachers of the world.

    The Jews failed to recognize that Jesus Christ is the true God?

    and according to them (preachers of the world) Jesus Christ, claiming that he is the true God, that is why the Jews accusing him “Blasphemy”?

    Therefore, the conclusion of the other preachers of the world, were in disarray. Because, if Jesus Christ is the true God, they could not kill him. The true God is immortal (never die).

    The Jews have their existing law, that “no one could claimed the Son of God”…. and it would be more worse than case of blasphemy if someone claiming that he is the true God.

    #313978
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 26 2012,16:27)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 26 2012,10:03)
    ed,

    read the context. do not jump to the other verses and conclude that they have the same meaning.
    it is not a comic. the bible will not agree to your illusion and even commentaries.

    limjunus,

    you have illogical reasoning boy LOL
    paul said Christ is the only LORD. therefore, if i will follow your argument, the father is not LORD to you.
    you said that you cant read in 1 cor 8.6 that Christ is Lord as being the head of the church

    why dont you make your own version to support you imagination LOL

    kathi,

    mike does not want to accpt that truth. for mike, Christ was not worshiped even if the bible said that.
    he will change the word worship and use his one and only NWT LOL

    truly Christ was killed bec the jews do not want to accept that he is God.


    Hi Jammin

    Are you suggesting that the Jews (according to you) killed God?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Jammin,

    Do not forget or set aside, you owe me a lots of answers

    Answer my questions first, before you could launch the talks.

    #313979
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 26 2012,16:27)
    truly Christ was killed bec the jews do not want to accept that he is God.


    Ed j,

    [B]The true God, has been killed by the Jews! Jammin version?

    That's why he could not able to answer my questions?

    He really do not know who is the true God, and he (Jammin) truly do not know the attributes of the true God.

    Do you think, he will answer your question? let me see it. LOL (bold)

    #313980
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    Why didn't the PHARISEES, who supposedly saw Jesus accept WORSHIP from the man, bring this up at his trial – or even right there and right then?

    Mike ,

    How many times the pharisees tried to kill him, for the same reason, that JESUS  PROCLAIMED THROUGH HIS WORK THAT HE WAS GOD IN FLESH.

    AND MYSTERIOUSLY THAY FAILED, THEY EVEN DRAGGED HIM TO THROW HIM OVER, BUT HE VANISHED'

    THEY SIMPLY GAVE UP SINCE HE WAS SO POWERFUL.

    John 14:6
    Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    SO WITHIN THIS SATANIC WORLD, THERE'S ONLY ONE WAY,ONE TRUTH, ONE LIFE,AND IT'S ALL IN JESUS CHRIST.

    NO CHRIST NO FATHER GOD.

    SO JESUS IS GOD FOR US SATANIC ELEMENTS.

    WE REJECTED THE FATHER AND ACCEPTED SATAN WITHIN OUR SOULS THROUGH ADAM.

    WE LOST SPIRITUALLITY, THE ONLY APPROPRIATE COMUNICATION WITH THE FATHER.

    SO THE FATHER HAD TO LOWER HIMSELF AND BECOME A CARNAL BEING IN JESUS CHRIST HIS SON THROUGH THE HOLYSPIRIT.

    HE MYSTERIOUSLY WAS BURRIED IN HIS SON'S SPIRIT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT THROUGHTOUT OUR CREATION.

    YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN THIS ,BECAUSE IT CONTRADICTS YOUR REJECTION OF THE TRIUNE GOD.

    READ AND REFLECT:

    7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

    WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT :

    EXPLAIN:

    FROM HERE ONWARDS YOU KNOW HIM, AND HAVE SEEN HIM!!!

    WHOM THEY HAVE SEEN THE FATHER, THE SON, OR BOTH???

    IN SPIRIT AND IN FLESH. IN GOD AND MAN.


    8Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

    and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?

    WHY JESUS ASKED PHILIP THE ABOVE WORDS, WHAT, ACCORDING TO JESUS PHILIP DIDN'T REALIZE IN JESUS' ENTITY???

    10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?

    BELIEVE YOU NOT THAT I AM ONE SPIRIT IN THE FATHER, AND MY FATHER IS ONE HUMAN IN ME???

    the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself

    THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU,WHICH ARE ALL SPIRITUAL, I SPEAK NOT OF MY OWN FLESH BODY

    : but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

    BUT THE SPIRIT OF MY FATHER IN HIS FULLNESS THAT DWELL IN ME, HE DOSE THE SPIRITUALL WORKS

    11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

    OR ELSE BELIEVE ME FOR THE WORKS I PERFORM WHICH ARE NOT HUMAN,BUT GODLY

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #314000
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Charles,

    Remember at the mount of transfiguration Jesus
    was assured of his resurrection by Moses and Elijah.
    Thomas said: unless I see and touch I will not believe.

    Afterward Thomas believed: and said
    unto him, My Lord and my God.  (John 20:28)
    To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself” (2 Cor 5:19)
    2 Cor 5:19 spells out clearly why Thomas said what he said; there is no hidden messages in his words,Charles.

    Jesus said to Philip: (John 14:11) Believe me that I in the Father,
    and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works sake.

    Thomas believed for the very works sake!

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #314001
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 25 2012,19:54)
    The Jewish leaders replied, “We have a law, and according to our law he ought to die, because he claimed to be the Son of God!” (John 19:7)

    I don't see the charge that he claimed to be YHWH or God. That would have been an easier conviction don't you think.


    Leviticus 24:16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.

    John 5:18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

    John 10:33 “We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

    It seems obvious that Jesus was claiming to be the literal son of God or He would not have had those things said about Him, i.e. that He was making Himself equal to God. The Jews understood what like begets like is which would mean very God begat very God, Light begat Light, hence the Nicene Creed. Anything less would not be a literal son. That is really the bottom line. Do you believe in a 'like begat like' literal Son or not.

    1 John 5
    9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

    Is believing in the Son as a figurative son and not a literal son calling God a liar?? Most people on HN do not believe in a literal Son of God, from what I can tell.

    #314014
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 26 2012,08:31)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 25 2012,12:54)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 26 2012,04:47)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 25 2012,11:16)
    I showed you that Jehovah is not only God of gods but Lord of lords. We are to worship both.


    WHERE exactly, in scripture, are we told to worship BOTH – as if we have TWO Almighty Gods we need to worship?


    To ALL,

    Yes, we are to “worship” both Father Yahweh and His son Yahshua. Do not be deceived by mikebulls'64 and his twisting of Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word!


    Frank,

    Do you believe we should worship Jesus as if he were God Almighty?  Of course not.  Does KATHI think we should?  Absolutely!  In fact, SHE believes that we have TWO Almighty Gods, and Jesus is “God Almighty, the Son”.

    Yet here you are, making it clear that I am the one with whom you disagree – not her.  ???

    Frank, is it possible that you just like to disagree with me, despite what I've said?  I only wonder because in a recent post, you said:

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 21 2012,18:52)
    “The evidence at hand is inconclusive at best. …” concerning Yahchanan [John] 1:18:

    To which I said:

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 24 2012,06:13)
    I agree.

    You also said:

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 21 2012,18:52)
    My stance would be IF “the only begotten God” were a more accurate translation than “the only begotten Son“, then the word “God” or “god” would simply be in reference to “power (authority), strength, or might”

    To which I said:

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 24 2012,06:13)
    I agree with this also.

    But despite the fact that I was agreeing with words YOU actually posted, you responded with:

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 24 2012,16:59)
    To ALL,
    Just to make it quite clear, mikebull's64 and I do not agree as he would deceptively want you to believe!  :laugh:

    It seems that you just like to disagree with me – no matter what it is that I've posted.  That, coupled with the fact that you insist upon addressing members here with your own, twisted version of their names, leads me to conclude that you are a childish, hateful, little man.

    I will pray for you.


    mikebulls'64,

    The fact is, I never said “The evidence at hand is inconclusive at best. …” concerning Yahchanan [John] 1:18″. This is in fact an excerpt from the article that I left a link to as a “SOURCE.” If you would have read what was said in accordance with the context you would have known that the author of the article does have a conclusion.

    It is you that believes that “Gods” are of value and have power, not I! :D

    I have made in very clear that I belive that ALL of the “Gods” of the nations (gentiles, heathens, goyim) outside of Ysryl are nothing but worthless idols that can not speak or move and have no power whatsoever as Scripture clearly teaches.

    BAAL God
    LORD God
    http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/YAHWEHFrank/BaalGad.html

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #314017
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 26 2012,16:52)

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 26 2012,16:27)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 26 2012,10:03)
    ed,

    read the context. do not jump to the other verses and conclude that they have the same meaning.
    it is not a comic. the bible will not agree to your illusion and even commentaries.

    limjunus,

    you have illogical reasoning boy LOL
    paul said Christ is the only LORD. therefore, if i will follow your argument, the father is not LORD to you.
    you said that you cant read in 1 cor 8.6 that Christ is Lord as being the head of the church

    why dont you make your own version to support you imagination LOL

    kathi,

    mike does not want to accpt that truth. for mike, Christ was not worshiped even if the bible said that.
    he will change the word worship and use his one and only NWT LOL

    truly Christ was killed bec the jews do not want to accept that he is God.


    Hi Jammin

    Are you suggesting that the Jews (according to you) killed God?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Jammin,

    Do not forget or set aside, you owe me a lots of answers

    Answer my questions first, before you could launch the talks.


    you are not answering my questions and you wnt to me answer yours? LOL

    limjunus have you read your favorite NLT? i thought NLT does not teach that Christ is God.LOL

    have you read phil 2.6 of NLT? LOL

    make your own version boy and make sure that that version will support all of your imagination. LOL

    make a bible that all verses will supprt your false doctrine

    #314018
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 26 2012,16:27)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 26 2012,10:03)
    ed,

    read the context. do not jump to the other verses and conclude that they have the same meaning.
    it is not a comic. the bible will not agree to your illusion and even commentaries.

    limjunus,

    you have illogical reasoning boy LOL
    paul said Christ is the only LORD. therefore, if i will follow your argument, the father is not LORD to you.
    you said that you cant read in 1 cor 8.6 that Christ is Lord as being the head of the church

    why dont you make your own version to support you imagination LOL

    kathi,

    mike does not want to accpt that truth. for mike, Christ was not worshiped even if the bible said that.
    he will change the word worship and use his one and only NWT LOL

    truly Christ was killed bec the jews do not want to accept that he is God.


    Hi Jammin

    Are you suggesting that the Jews (according to you) killed God?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    have not you read the book of john? LOL

    wear eyeglasses boy.

    oh i forgot, you are a dreamer boy LOL

    your doctrine that the WORD in john 1.1 is the HS is nowhere in john 1.1-14 LOL

    make your own version of john 1.1
    LOL

    #314019
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 26 2012,16:58)

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 26 2012,16:27)
    truly Christ was killed bec the jews do not want to accept that he is God.


    Ed j,

    [B]The true God, has been killed by the Jews! Jammin version?

    That's why he could not able to answer my questions?

    He really do not know who is the true God, and he (Jammin) truly do not know the attributes of the true God.

    Do you think, he will answer your question? let me see it. LOL (bold)


    read your bible boy and not your pasugo LOL

    poor limjunus .. he wants his illusion to be accepted by men even if the bible says Christ is God.

    john 1.18 says that. he is God.
    but this false teacher is accepting MANALO'S view LOL
    they are both dreamers LOL

    #314033
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 27 2012,09:55)

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 26 2012,16:27)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 26 2012,10:03)
    ed,

    truly Christ was killed bec the jews do not want to accept that he is God.


    Hi Jammin

    Are you suggesting that the Jews (according to you) killed God?

    God bless
    Ed J


    have not you read the book of john? LOL

    wear eyeglasses boy.

    oh i forgot, you are a dreamer boy LOL

    your doctrine that the WORD in john 1.1 is the HS is nowhere in john 1.1-14 LOL

    make your own version of john 1.1
    LOL


    Hi Jammin,

    So, is that a “Yes” or a “No” then?       <– please answer my question
    You complain about others not answering your questions,
    but it is really YOU who does not answer their questions!

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #314058
    jammin
    Participant

    i told you to read your bible

    the body died. Christ who is God by nature became flesh. he became like us.

    do you want verse??

    Philippians 2:6-7

    New International Version (NIV)

    6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
    7 rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.

    and here is what john said
    John 1:18

    New International Version (NIV)

    18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, [b]who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

    the jews do not want to accept that truth and you are like them.

    Christ HAD A TRULY HUMAN BODY
    and that body died!
    1 John 4:2

    Contemporary English Version (CEV)

    2 and you can know which ones come from God. His Spirit says that Jesus Christ had a truly human body.

    #314059
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 27 2012,09:57)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 26 2012,16:58)

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 26 2012,16:27)
    truly Christ was killed bec the jews do not want to accept that he is God.


    Ed j,

    [B]The true God, has been killed by the Jews! Jammin version?

    That's why he could not able to answer my questions?

    He really do not know who is the true God, and he (Jammin) truly do not know the attributes of the true God.

    Do you think, he will answer your question? let me see it. LOL (bold)


    read your bible boy and not your pasugo LOL

    poor limjunus .. he wants his illusion to be accepted by men even if the bible says Christ is God.

    john 1.18 says that. he is God.
    but this false teacher is accepting MANALO'S view LOL
    they are both dreamers LOL


    Jammin,

    Do not forget youu owe me a lot of answers.

    Why you could not able to answers my questions if you are not a “false teachers”?

    One of the mark of the false teacher is, “could not able to answer the very vital questions addressed to him.

    Do not mentioned the other religious leader here in Heaven Net. It is not the issue.

    The issue here on your own thread is, your true God, died!

    According to you, Jesus Christ is truly God.

    The question is, Did Jesus Christ, your own true God died or not? Chose, YES or NO?

    #314060
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 27 2012,17:23)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 27 2012,09:55)

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 26 2012,16:27)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 26 2012,10:03)
    ed,

    truly Christ was killed bec the jews do not want to accept that he is God.


    Hi Jammin

    Are you suggesting that the Jews (according to you) killed God?

    God bless
    Ed J


    have not you read the book of john? LOL

    wear eyeglasses boy.

    oh i forgot, you are a dreamer boy LOL

    your doctrine that the WORD in john 1.1 is the HS is nowhere in john 1.1-14 LOL

    make your own version of john 1.1
    LOL


    Hi Jammin,

    So, is that a “Yes” or a “No” then?       <– please answer my question
    You complain about others not answering your questions,
    but it is really YOU who does not answer their questions!

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Ed j,

    That's the “truly” and truly-ly-ly

    He is may be a true false teacher?….not able to answer the questions to him.

    The clear mark of a false teacher is, suddenly-DUMB ..when there is a fatal and vital question.

    :ghostface:

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