John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 10,521 through 10,540 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #313885
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Sep. 23 2012,16:36)
    You are the one to be deemed not a worthy witness, because you are corrupting the words of God by adding or inserting your own understanding.

    Your own human reasoning and false arguments must be rejected and destroyed.

    REFUSING TO COMMENT AND TO STRENGHTEN YOUR ARGUMENT USING SCRIPTURES,IS A PROOF THAT YOU ARE NOT IN THE TRUTH.

    IN THE SAME TIME REFUSING TO LEAD OTHERS TO THE TRUTH, IF YOU ARE CONSIDERING YOURSELF IN THE TRUTH, YOU WOULD BE REJECTING YOUR OWN BELIEF,WHICH IS AN OBLIGATION AS A CHRISTIAN TO LEAD OTHERS TO THE TRUTH.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    b]You are the one to be deemed not a worthy witness, because you are corrupting the words of God by adding or inserting your own understanding.

    What I really meant is, post the Bible verses as what it was written. Do not add or do not subtract it by inserting your “beliefs”.

    Your own human reasoning and false arguments must be rejected and be destroyed.

    What I really meant is, Your own understanding and conclusions that is not in accord with the real meaning of the Bible verses you have presented.

    Rejecting my own belief?

    My belief is not mine. It is purely come from the Bible contexts.

    I did not made it by my own. I am just reading it and sharing it with you.

    God bless you.

    #313886
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 22 2012,15:27)
    Frank,
    you said:

    Quote
    No, what you have presented certainly does not lend any “help” in this matter!

    Sorry you think so. Nevertheless, I have found a great deal of support from the early church on John 1:18 saying 'the only begotten God.'

    I don't want to argue this with you.


    Lightenup,

    We are to get our doctrine for reproof, for correction and instruction in righteousness from Scripture and from what Yahshua and the apostles taught in accordance with Scripture, not from the so called “church” that were the very product of the “falling away” with their paganistic practices against the truth that Yahshua and the apostles taught. Note that Yahshua and the apostles were “thoroughly furnished for every righteous work”. Note also that the people of Berea “were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the Scriptures [*the so-called 'Old Testament' which is Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word] daily, whether those things were so.” I myself certainly have no need for the false doctrines developed by the so-called “[pagan] church” after the death of Yahshua and the apostles.

    *NOTE: The so-called “New Testament” was not even in existence at this time.

    And the brethren immediately, through the night, sent forth both Shaul and Silas to Berea, who having come, went to the synagogue of the Yahdahim; and these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the Scriptures [the so-called 'Old Testament' which is Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word] daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed; also of honorable women who were Greeks, and of men, not a few (Acts 17:10-12).

    All Scripture is given by inspiration of Yahweh, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of Yahweh may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all righteous works (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #313889
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 24 2012,17:00)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 24 2012,16:25)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 24 2012,16:09)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2012,13:54)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2012,10:21)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 19 2012,04:19)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,11:29)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 18 2012,23:40)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,02:10)
    limjunus,
    Jesus IS the true only begotten God.


    Lightenup,

    The rightful way to express is, Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God and [/B]“not begotten God”.

    :D


    limjunus,

    Scripture disagrees with you:
    John 1:18
    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    No one has seen God at any time; [b]the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

    :D


    Kathi,

    That passage is speaking of the Spirit by personifying it; which is why it uses the word “one”.  It is the Spirit that knows the deep things of God; and those to whom the Spirit reveals them.  Jesus is his primary student and the man by whom all others come to know God.


    Hi Kerwin,
    I do not see anything like what you say in the early church's understanding of this verse. The Son is said to be the 'firstborn' and the Holy Spirit is not said to the 'firstborn.'

    God bless!


    Kathi,

    I know little of such writings you speak of but I do know Scripture declares the Spirit is the only one that knows the things of God and reveals them to whom it chooses.  

    Jesus is the only man that knows the things of God because the Spirit revealed them to him.  In union with the Spirit he then reveals them to who he chooses.

    There cannot be two that know the things of God until the Spirit has revealed them to the second. At that point there are two that know, not one.  John 1:18 speaks of the first one in 1  Corinthians 2:11 and clearly that is also the one John 1:18 speaks of; and therefore he is calling the Spirit the Son.

    Perhaps it will help to think of it this way; The Spirit personified as the Son comes to dwell in Jesus, thus making him the Son of God.


    Kerwin,

    Let us face the truth. The wills of God, has been twisted by His No. 1-enemy, Satan and his angels;the Dragon, the Beast, the false Prophet and the three unclean spirits;demon spirit; decieving the kings and the whole world. Gathering them for a battle agaisnt the great day of the Almighty God. (Ref: Revelation 16:13-14 NKJV)

    he Battle mentioned in Revelation 16:14, is the battle against the “false doctrines” of the devil” who deceived the whole world, including the Kings (supporting the false doctrines).

    The following are the very strong evidences with what I have trying to share about.  It is not just plain reasoning and arguments from my brain and from the unseen world of darkness. It is the very powerful weapon of Christ, the words of God, taken from the Bible.

    As what apostle Paul said: Ephesians 6:12 New Living Translation (NLT)

    “For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies (actual wars in this visible world), but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.”

    Our battle is against what? (a.) Against the evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, (b.) against mighty powers in the dark world, (c.) against the evil spirits in the heavenly places. (Rev. 16:13-14)


    you are using again the NLT.
    NLT believes Christ is God but you dont LOL

    make your own version LOL


    [b]Jammin,

    NLT is not believing that Jesus Christ is God.

    The person who is reading the NLT like you, is the one saying Jesus Christ is true God.

    By the way, you owe me a lot of answers.

    Why until now you have failed to answer my questions?

    Is that meant by failing to answer my question is your silent admission that you are wrong with your Bible understanding?

    So, if not, why you can not able to answer?

    :D


    really??/

    let me post NLT
    Philippians 2:6

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    6 Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God
    as something to cling to.

    consult a psychiatrist boy LOL

    #313890
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 24 2012,06:13)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 21 2012,18:52)
    Please consider the following study link which follows the author's quote where the author concludes “The evidence at hand is inconclusive at best. …” concerning Yahchanan [John] 1:18:


    I agree.  Going off of the information we currently have on the subject, the truth of the matter is inconclusive.

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 21 2012,18:52)
    My stance would be IF “the only begotten God” were a more accurate translation than “the only begotten Son“, then the word “God” or “god” would simply be in reference to “power (authority), strength, or might”


    I agree with this also.  Jesus being called “el” and “theos” in scripture does NOT mean he is the Most High God.  But, after all, the words “el” and “theos” DO refer to ones who have “power, strength, and might”.  And there are MANY of those taught about in scripture………….. and One who is the God OF those ones.


    To ALL,

    Just to make it quite clear, mikebull's64 and I do not agree as he would deceptively want you to believe!  :laugh:

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #313891
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 25 2012,09:58)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 24 2012,17:00)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 24 2012,16:25)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 24 2012,16:09)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2012,13:54)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2012,10:21)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 19 2012,04:19)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,11:29)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 18 2012,23:40)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,02:10)
    limjunus,
    Jesus IS the true only begotten God.


    Lightenup,

    The rightful way to express is, Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God and [/B]“not begotten God”.

    :D


    limjunus,

    Scripture disagrees with you:
    John 1:18
    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    No one has seen God at any time; [b]the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

    :D


    Kathi,

    That passage is speaking of the Spirit by personifying it; which is why it uses the word “one”.  It is the Spirit that knows the deep things of God; and those to whom the Spirit reveals them.  Jesus is his primary student and the man by whom all others come to know God.


    Hi Kerwin,
    I do not see anything like what you say in the early church's understanding of this verse. The Son is said to be the 'firstborn' and the Holy Spirit is not said to the 'firstborn.'

    God bless!


    Kathi,

    I know little of such writings you speak of but I do know Scripture declares the Spirit is the only one that knows the things of God and reveals them to whom it chooses.  

    Jesus is the only man that knows the things of God because the Spirit revealed them to him.  In union with the Spirit he then reveals them to who he chooses.

    There cannot be two that know the things of God until the Spirit has revealed them to the second. At that point there are two that know, not one.  John 1:18 speaks of the first one in 1  Corinthians 2:11 and clearly that is also the one John 1:18 speaks of; and therefore he is calling the Spirit the Son.

    Perhaps it will help to think of it this way; The Spirit personified as the Son comes to dwell in Jesus, thus making him the Son of God.


    Kerwin,

    Let us face the truth. The wills of God, has been twisted by His No. 1-enemy, Satan and his angels;the Dragon, the Beast, the false Prophet and the three unclean spirits;demon spirit; decieving the kings and the whole world. Gathering them for a battle agaisnt the great day of the Almighty God. (Ref: Revelation 16:13-14 NKJV)

    he Battle mentioned in Revelation 16:14, is the battle against the “false doctrines” of the devil” who deceived the whole world, including the Kings (supporting the false doctrines).

    The following are the very strong evidences with what I have trying to share about.  It is not just plain reasoning and arguments from my brain and from the unseen world of darkness. It is the very powerful weapon of Christ, the words of God, taken from the Bible.

    As what apostle Paul said: Ephesians 6:12 New Living Translation (NLT)

    “For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies (actual wars in this visible world), but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.”

    Our battle is against what? (a.) Against the evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, (b.) against mighty powers in the dark world, (c.) against the evil spirits in the heavenly places. (Rev. 16:13-14)


    you are using again the NLT.
    NLT believes Christ is God but you dont LOL

    make your own version LOL


    [b]Jammin,

    NLT is not believing that Jesus Christ is God.

    The person who is reading the NLT like you, is the one saying Jesus Christ is true God.

    By the way, you owe me a lot of answers.

    Why until now you have failed to answer my questions?

    Is that meant by failing to answer my question is your silent admission that you are wrong with your Bible understanding?

    So, if not, why you can not able to answer?

    :D


    really??/

    let me post NLT
    Philippians 2:6

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    6 Though he was God,    he did not think of equality with God
       as something to cling to.

    consult a psychiatrist boy LOL


    Quote
    New Living Translation (NLT)

    6 Though he was God,    he did not think of equality with God
      as something to cling to.

    What a poor and contradictory translation! :laugh:

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #313898
    jammin
    Participant

    there is no contradiction there. you just do not know how to read your bible LOL

    make your own version that will support your illusion LOL

    #313899
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Jammin,

    That's NOT what Phil.2:6 says; but this is…

    2:5 τουτο γαρ φρονεισθω εν υμιν ο και εν χριστω ιησου
    2:6 ος εν μορφη θεου υπαρχων ουχ αρπαγμον ηγησατο το ειναι ισα θεω

    (Phil 2:5-6) 2:5 This understanding is in you in Christ Jesus:
    2:6 In the form that God exists, think it not robbery to be considered equal.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #313900
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 25 2012,16:41)
    Hi Jammin,

    That's NOT what Phil.2:6 says; but this is…

    2:5 τουτο γαρ φρονεισθω εν υμιν ο και εν χριστω ιησου
    2:6 ος εν μορφη θεου υπαρχων ουχ αρπαγμον ηγησατο το ειναι ισα θεω

    (Phil 2:5-6) 2:5 This understanding is in you in Christ Jesus:
    2:6 In the form that God exists, think it not robbery to be considered equal.

    God bless
    Ed J


    Hi Jammin,

    That “divine nature” YOU MIGHT someday have. (NOTE: see highlighted part)

    “According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness,
    through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding
    great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature,
    having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.” (2 Peter 1:3-4)

    That is of course if you put on the “New Man”! (Eph.4:24)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)

    #313901
    jammin
    Participant

    you cant understand your bible bec you do not know how to read the context ed

    the bible is not like a pocket book that you can pick another page

    #313902
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Jammin,

    Is not the bible consistent without?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #313903
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Feb. 01 2012,14:46)
    anyone from the anti christ group willing to answer this topic?


    The challenge with a sure description of “anti-Christ” to the opposition.

    There is something un-usual with question.

    #313904
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 25 2012,10:03)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 25 2012,09:58)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 24 2012,17:00)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 24 2012,16:25)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 24 2012,16:09)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2012,13:54)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2012,10:21)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 19 2012,04:19)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,11:29)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 18 2012,23:40)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 19 2012,02:10)
    limjunus,
    Jesus IS the true only begotten God.


    Lightenup,

    The rightful way to express is, Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God and [/B]“not begotten God”.

    :D


    limjunus,

    Scripture disagrees with you:
    John 1:18
    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    No one has seen God at any time; [b]the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

    :D


    Kathi,

    That passage is speaking of the Spirit by personifying it; which is why it uses the word “one”.  It is the Spirit that knows the deep things of God; and those to whom the Spirit reveals them.  Jesus is his primary student and the man by whom all others come to know God.


    Hi Kerwin,
    I do not see anything like what you say in the early church's understanding of this verse. The Son is said to be the 'firstborn' and the Holy Spirit is not said to the 'firstborn.'

    God bless!


    Kathi,

    I know little of such writings you speak of but I do know Scripture declares the Spirit is the only one that knows the things of God and reveals them to whom it chooses.  

    Jesus is the only man that knows the things of God because the Spirit revealed them to him.  In union with the Spirit he then reveals them to who he chooses.

    There cannot be two that know the things of God until the Spirit has revealed them to the second. At that point there are two that know, not one.  John 1:18 speaks of the first one in 1  Corinthians 2:11 and clearly that is also the one John 1:18 speaks of; and therefore he is calling the Spirit the Son.

    Perhaps it will help to think of it this way; The Spirit personified as the Son comes to dwell in Jesus, thus making him the Son of God.


    Kerwin,

    Let us face the truth. The wills of God, has been twisted by His No. 1-enemy, Satan and his angels;the Dragon, the Beast, the false Prophet and the three unclean spirits;demon spirit; decieving the kings and the whole world. Gathering them for a battle agaisnt the great day of the Almighty God. (Ref: Revelation 16:13-14 NKJV)

    he Battle mentioned in Revelation 16:14, is the battle against the “false doctrines” of the devil” who deceived the whole world, including the Kings (supporting the false doctrines).

    The following are the very strong evidences with what I have trying to share about.  It is not just plain reasoning and arguments from my brain and from the unseen world of darkness. It is the very powerful weapon of Christ, the words of God, taken from the Bible.

    As what apostle Paul said: Ephesians 6:12 New Living Translation (NLT)

    “For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies (actual wars in this visible world), but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.”

    Our battle is against what? (a.) Against the evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, (b.) against mighty powers in the dark world, (c.) against the evil spirits in the heavenly places. (Rev. 16:13-14)


    you are using again the NLT.
    NLT believes Christ is God but you dont LOL

    make your own version LOL


    [b]Jammin,

    NLT is not believing that Jesus Christ is God.

    The person who is reading the NLT like you, is the one saying Jesus Christ is true God.

    By the way, you owe me a lot of answers.

    Why until now you have failed to answer my questions?

    Is that meant by failing to answer my question is your silent admission that you are wrong with your Bible understanding?

    So, if not, why you can not able to answer?

    :D


    really??/

    let me post NLT
    Philippians 2:6

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    6 Though he was God,    he did not think of equality with God
       as something to cling to.

    consult a psychiatrist boy LOL


    Quote
    New Living Translation (NLT)

    6 Though he was God,    he did not think of equality with God
      as something to cling to.

    What a poor and contradictory translation! :laugh:

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN
    ONE?

    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    [b]Jammin,

    NLT is not believing that Jesus Christ is God.

    The person who is reading the NLT like you, is the one saying Jesus Christ is true God.

    By the way, you owe me a lot of answers.

    Why until now you have failed to answer my questions?

    Is that meant by failing to answer my question is your silent admission that you are wrong with your Bible understanding?

    So, if not, why you can not able to answer?

    #313905
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 25 2012,18:24)
    you cant understand your bible bec you do not know how to read the context ed

    the bible is not like a pocket book that you can pick another page


    Sorry Jammin,

    But that's what the bible teaches.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #313911
    limjunus
    Participant

    Jammin,

    By the way, you owe me a lot of answers.

    Why until now you have failed to answer my questions?

    Is that meant by failing to answer my question is your silent admission that you are wrong with your Bible understanding?

    So, if not, why you can not able to answer?

    As what I have said. I will not post again with this thread, but Jammin, owe me a lot of answers.

    I am just following it.

    #313912
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 25 2012,01:13)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2012,10:33)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 22 2012,02:49)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 22 2012,15:24)
    limjunus,

    I do believe that I as well as jammin believe in the Nicene Creed as stated here:


    I believe in one God,
    the Father Almighty,
    maker of heaven and earth,
    and of all things visible and invisible;

    And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
    the only begotten Son of God,
    begotten of his Father before all worlds,
    God of God, Light of Light,
    very God of very God,
    begotten, not made,
    being of one substance with the Father;
    by whom all things were made;
    who for us men and for our salvation
      came down from heaven,
    and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost
      of the Virgin Mary,
      and was made man;
    and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
    he suffered and was buried;
    and the third day he rose again
      according to the Scriptures,
    and ascended into heaven,
    and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
    and he shall come again, with glory,
      to judge both the quick and the dead;
    whose kingdom shall have no end.

    And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Live,
    who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son];
    who with the Father and the Son together
      is worshiped and glorified;
    who spake by the Prophets.
    And I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;
    I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
    and I look for the resurrection of the dead,
       and the life of the world to come. AMEN.

    Do you disagree with any part/parts of this?


    Lightenup,

    I am firmly stand to disagree.

    That is your beliefs and everyone in this world is entitle to any belief, as long he is responsible to it at any cost.

    As we have aware that the whole world is under the Satan's ruled.

    The main mission of the true preachers of God, is to rescue the sons and daughters of the Almighty God, from the bondage of sins … rescuing and transferring them from the kingdom of darkness to the lightness kingdom of God through and with His son Jesus Christ.

    The power of God, for the salvation of souls is the righteousness of God, the gospel of Christ.

    Limjunus,
    Would you mind making the parts in that creed bold that you don't agree with. Certainly you don't disagree with everything  ???

    Thanks!


    limjunus,
    I was hoping you would respond to this by bolding what you don't believe.


    I do not agreed or I did not believe: The bold paragraphs.

    begotten of his Father before all worlds,
    God of God, Light of Light,
    very God of very God,
    begotten, not made,
    being of one substance with the Father;

    And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Live,
    who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son];
    who with the Father and the Son together

    And I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;

    #313913
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 25 2012,20:34)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 25 2012,01:13)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2012,10:33)

    Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 22 2012,02:49)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 22 2012,15:24)
    limjunus,

    I do believe that I as well as jammin believe in the Nicene Creed as stated here:


    I believe in one God,
    the Father Almighty,
    maker of heaven and earth,
    and of all things visible and invisible;

    And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
    the only begotten Son of God,
    begotten of his Father before all worlds,
    God of God, Light of Light,
    very God of very God,
    begotten, not made,
    being of one substance with the Father;
    by whom all things were made;
    who for us men and for our salvation
      came down from heaven,
    and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost
      of the Virgin Mary,
      and was made man;
    and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
    he suffered and was buried;
    and the third day he rose again
      according to the Scriptures,
    and ascended into heaven,
    and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
    and he shall come again, with glory,
      to judge both the quick and the dead;
    whose kingdom shall have no end.

    And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Live,
    who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son];
    who with the Father and the Son together
      is worshiped and glorified;
    who spake by the Prophets.
    And I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;
    I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
    and I look for the resurrection of the dead,
       and the life of the world to come. AMEN.

    Do you disagree with any part/parts of this?


    Lightenup,

    I am firmly stand to disagree.

    That is your beliefs and everyone in this world is entitle to any belief, as long he is responsible to it at any cost.

    As we have aware that the whole world is under the Satan's ruled.

    The main mission of the true preachers of God, is to rescue the sons and daughters of the Almighty God, from the bondage of sins … rescuing and transferring them from the kingdom of darkness to the lightness kingdom of God through and with His son Jesus Christ.

    The power of God, for the salvation of souls is the righteousness of God, the gospel of Christ.

    Limjunus,
    Would you mind making the parts in that creed bold that you don't agree with. Certainly you don't disagree with everything  ???

    Thanks!


    limjunus,
    I was hoping you would respond to this by bolding what you don't believe.


    I do not agreed or I did not believe: The bold paragraphs.

    begotten of his Father before all worlds,
    God of God, Light of Light,
    very God of very God,
    begotten, not made,
    being of one substance with the Father;

    And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Live,
    who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son];
    who with the Father and the Son together

    And I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;


    Here is my belief foundation:

    Isa. 43:10 NKJV
    10. “You are My witnesses,” says the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.

    Mal. 2:10 NKJV
    10. Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why do we deal treacherously with one another By profaning the covenant of the fathers?

    John 17:1-3 NKJV
    1. Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2. as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3. And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

    1 Cor. 8:4,6 NKJV
    4. Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one.
    6. yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

    I will go also to another important matter or I shall make a new thread.

    Thank you very much for allowing me with you here with this thread. John 1:1
    God bless you all.

    #313922
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Limjunus,
    Thank you for your response, apparently you do not believe a portion of the Nicene creed because you believe that it contradicts those verses that you put up for your 'belief foundation' but they do not contradict them with correct understanding.

    In the OT, God works through His power and wisdom, His 'arm' and His 'Word.' Therefore He speaks of  Himself as one with His power and wisdom. In the NT, He reveals His 'Arm' and His 'Word' as the only begotten God, His only begotten Son, our Lord in whom we must know and believe in for eternal life.

    1 John 5:9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

    From what you say, you do not believe in the only begotten Son as a literal Son, as one who is like the one who begat Him, i.e.  very God of very God, Light of Light, as would be the case for a literal son. I do believe in a literal only begotten son as do those who agree with the Nicene Creed. We can't both be right. ???

    #313924
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 23 2012,16:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 24 2012,08:48)
    The Greek word “proskuneo” can either refer to the worship that is only due God, or the act of bowing down to another person to show reverence.

    In the case of Jesus, it is properly translated as “did obeisance to” – like the NWT renders it.  Jesus himself told us who ALONE to worship in Matthew 4:10.


    the translators of NWT have no enough knowledge about greek mike.
    that is the only version that you can use to support your imagination.

    they worshiped jesus. that is what the bible says


    First of all, the NWT IS a Bible, jammin, so you can't just say, “That is what the Bible says” – as if all Bibles say the exact same thing.

    Secondly, can you refute my claim that the Greek word “proskuneo” is used in scripture to refer to the worship of God Almighty…………………… AND …………….. to the bowing down to others to show reverence?  YES or NO?

    proskuneo
    3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
      3a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank

    And thirdly:
    John 9 NIV
    35 Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”

    36 “Who is he, sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in him.”

    37 Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.”

    38 Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

    39 Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.”

    40 Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?”

    Now, consider that at this time, the Pharisees were on a mission to find ANY reason at all to have Jesus killed.  Do you seriously think that these Pharisees WATCHED this formerly blind man WORSHIP Jesus as if he were God, and said nothing to the man or to Jesus?   ???

    Do you think that this formerly blind man, who just then learned that Jesus was the SON OF MAN, figured in his own brain that “Son of Man” equals “God Almighty”, and decided that Jesus WAS God Almighty and worshiped him?  ???

    Let the scriptures teach you, jammin.  Don't try to teach the scriptures, okay?

    The NWT translates John 9:38 correctly:
    Then he said: “I do put faith [in him], Lord.” And he did obeisance to him.

    So do these other BIBLES:
    Young's Literal Translation
    and he said, 'I believe, sir,' and bowed before him.

    Weymouth New Testament
    “I believe, Sir,” he said. And he threw himself at His feet.

    Darby Bible Translation
    And he said, I believe, Lord: and he did him homage.

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    And he said: I believe, Lord. And falling down, he adored him.

    GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
    The man bowed in front of Jesus and said, “I believe, Lord.”

    #313925
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2012,23:04)
    I showed Mike at least 17 passages in the NT that show that Jesus was worshiped. He was worshiped as the Son of God…clearly!


    Kathi,

    I can show you MANY scriptures that tell us to worship ONLY Jehovah, our God……………….. in at least two of them, it is JESUS doing the speaking.

    Can you show me the ONE scripture in the Bible that tells us to worship Jehovah, our God…………….. AND His Son?

    If you cannot, then it seems it is YOU who is understanding the Greek word “proskuneo” wrong in the NT.

    #313926
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 26 2012,02:32)
    Limjunus,
    Thank you for your response, apparently you do not believe a portion of the Nicene creed because you believe that it contradicts those verses that you put up for your 'belief foundation' but they do not contradict them with correct understanding.

    In the OT, God works through His power and wisdom, His 'arm' and His 'Word.' Therefore He speaks of  Himself as one with His power and wisdom. In the NT, He reveals His 'Arm' and His 'Word' as the only begotten God, His only begotten Son, our Lord in whom we must know and believe in for eternal life.

    1 John 5:9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

    From what you say, you do not believe in the only begotten Son as a literal Son, as one who is like the one who begat Him, i.e.  very God of very God, Light of Light, as would be the case for a literal son. I do believe in a literal only begotten son as do those who agree with the Nicene Creed. We can't both be right. ???


    Lightenup,

    [/B]11And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.[B] (Ref: 1 John 5:11-12 NKJV)

    I have no problem with it. I do believe with God and I am also believing with the Son of God, Jesus Christ.

    The main issue of the testimony of God is, “we must be sure that we have the Son of God, so that we can have the eternal life.

    In other passages of the Bible, we must be in the Son of God or we must be sure that we have been given to the Son of God.

    Now, what is the strong evidences in accordance with the words of God that we're truly in Christ Jesus?

    Here is one among so many evidence from the great teacher of God.

    ” I am the door of the sheep, whoever enter into the fold through me shall be saved”[U]

    The fold is the church of Christ, he has purchased it by his blood. He is the savior of the church, his body… he give his life for the church…” (Ref: John 10:9 / Eph. 5:23 / Acts 20:28 NKJV/Lamsa/RSV/TEV)

    If you are in Christ, there is no any condemnation..” meaning saved and have eternal life.

    God bless you.

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