John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 10,101 through 10,120 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
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  • #312206
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 09 2012,11:24)
    ……and we have seen the Word's glory IN God's only begotten Son.


    There Ed,

    I made it big and bold so everyone can see exactly what you think John 1:14 teaches. If it is your understanding, then why play games, drag this discussion out, and act all mysterious about it? ??? If this is truly how you understand 1:14, then why wouldn't you just come out and say this 15 pages ago? ???

    Now that I know what your mind-glitch is, I can help you.

    The subject of the verse is “the Word”. There is no indication that the subject ever switches in that verse. Ie:

    The Word is who became flesh.

    The Word is whose glory they had seen.

    And the Word is whose glory was the glory as of God's only begotten Son.

    There is no word “IN” in the verse, so right there you understanding fails. See? If YOUR understanding requires the word “IN”, and the word “IN” isn't actually in the scripture, then YOUR understanding is faulty, and insists that you ADD YOUR OWN WORDS INTO THE TEACHING.

    #312207
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 10 2012,04:24)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2012,04:01)
    Okay, I'm getting closer to understanding what you seem to be afraid to just come out an say.

    Is this it:
    We have seen the Word's glory IN someone else, who happens to be God's only begotten Son.


    Hi Mike; Now remove: ' someone else, who happens to be'  and add “ADD”…

    (and we have seen the Word's glory IN God's only begotten Son,) full of grace and truth.

    (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    God bless
    Ed J


    Hi Mike,

    Our hands have handled, of “The Word” of life;” (1 John 1:1)
      This means that they spread the word of God;
      it's not about touching Jesus' body.

    the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” (John 6:63)
      I don't know why John 6:63 is so difficult for you to understand?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #312208
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2012,04:31)

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 09 2012,11:24)
    ……and we have seen the Word's glory IN God's only begotten Son.


    There Ed,

    I made it big and bold so everyone can see exactly what you think John 1:14 teaches.  

    I can help you.


    Hi Mike,

    Great, love when people help me!  :)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #312209
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2012,04:31)

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 09 2012,11:24)
    ……and we have seen the Word's glory IN God's only begotten Son.


    There Ed,

    I made it big and bold so everyone can see exactly what you think John 1:14 teaches.  

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2012,04:31)
    And the Word is whose glory was the glory as of God's only begotten Son.


    Hi Mike,

    Are you speaking in riddles now?
    Were not my words plain enough for you?

    How about God's words then…
    “The word was God” (John 1:1)
    “God was in Christ” (2Cor.5:19)

    the glory as of the only begotten of the Father (John 1:14) com-
    pared
    with the glory which shall be revealed in us
    . (Romans 8:18)

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #312240
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 05 2012,10:18)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 04 2012,17:06)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 05 2012,09:17)
    ……….perhaps it is time you check your glasses.


    Strange that you mention that!

    I have been noticing lately that my eyes are getting worse.


    Well, there ya go.  :)


    mikebulls'64,

    Note that I also said “No worry though on my part though, since I can simply tilt my head back slightly and see clearly through one of my other focal points in my lenses, since my glasses are tri-focals.”

    I not only have to dispute to you the meaning of what Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word is saying to you, but must also dispute what the meaning of what it is that I say to you. :D

    No, “Well there you go.”, taking my words out of context as you also take Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word out of context in attempt to promote your foolish, false, deceptive, and demonic doctrine “Jesus literally pre-existed his birth as an actual being that was “a god” and was also his and our Heavenly Father and Creator's word that was with Him in the beginning.”

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #312266
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2012,01:51)

    Quote (carmel @ Sep. 08 2012,13:37)
    The Father ONLY IN HIS SPIRIT FORM on the throne with the scroll in His hand, waiting for the true GOD AND JESUS CHRIST


    The Father was waiting for the true God Jesus Christ?   ???

    Charles, how many Almighty Gods are there in existence?


    Carmel saiid,

    “The Father ONLY IN HIS SPIRIT FORM on the throne with the scroll in His hand,”

    How come the Father in spirit form (no material/s) holding in His hand the scroll?

    and Carmel said also this: “waiting for the true GOD AND JESUS CHRIST”

    Father in heaven, has been introduced by Jesus Christ, the only true God, waiting for another true God and Jesus Christ?

    What a very weird doctrine? Only true God waiting for another true God???

    Are you still dreaming, Carmel???

    #312267
    limjunus
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Sep. 10 2012,02:29)
    [quote=mikeboll64,Sep. 10 2012,01:51][/quote]

    Quote
    The Father was waiting for the true God Jesus Christ?  

    Charles, how many Almighty Gods are there in existence?

    Mike,

    CORECTION:

    TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST

    NOT

    TRUE GOD JESUS CHRIST.

    THERE'S IS ONLY ONE SPIRITUAL ALMIGHTY GOD. THE ONE ON THE THRONE.

    THERE'S ONLY ONE TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST,WHO GLORIFIED IN BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH UNITING BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON AS ONE MYSTICAL BODY IN JESUS CHRIST  

    WHO IS IN COMMAND OF THE ENTIRE CREATION PREVENTING THE FATHER FROM DESTROYING OUR SINFULL WORLD.

    ON THE LAST DAY:

    ALMIGHTY GOD WOULD BE ALL IN ALL

    Peace nd love in Jesus

    Charles


    Carmel said:

    “THERE'S IS ONLY ONE SPIRITUAL ALMIGHTY GOD. THE ONE ON THE THRONE.” Question: Who is He?

    Carmel said: “THERE'S ONLY ONE TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST,WHO GLORIFIED IN BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH UNITING BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON AS ONE MYSTICAL BODY IN JESUS CHRIST”

    Question? Do you mean combining the Father and the Son as one mystical body (what do you mean mystical body?) in Christ Jesus. Do you mean Jesus Christ in human flesh, representing the Father and the Son as what?

    Another Carmel said: “WHO IS IN COMMAND OF THE ENTIRE CREATION PREVENTING THE FATHER FROM DESTROYING OUR SINFULL WORLD. ON THE LAST DAY:

    Question: Do you mean, Jesus Christ is more powerful than the Father, preventing his Father in destroying the sinful world on the last day?

    In contrast with the Bible saying: “2 Peter 3:10-12
    21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

    10 But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. The earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy manner of living and godliness,

    12 looking for and hastening unto the coming of the Day of God, wherein the heavens, being on fire, shall be dissolved and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

    ???

    #312269
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2012,02:07)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 08 2012,21:10)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 09 2012,02:57)

    Can God take the scroll from the hand of HIMSELF? YES or NO?


    LOL

    who is that God mike???

    the father is God
    the son is God.


    So there are TWO Almighty Gods?  And one of our Almighty Gods took the scroll from the hand of the other Almighty God?

    Is that what you think, jammin?


    almighty is the nature of God

    human is not almighty mike but God!

    the father is God
    the son is God

    and i know that you believe Christ is God


    before Christ is god to you and not God
    but now, he is God to you and his father is GOD not God

    LOL

    if im going to follow your logic,
    your father is HUMAN and you are Human LOL

    non sense boy
    LOL

    the bible said the father and the son have the same nature. they are both God!

    believe it or not

    #312283
    journey42
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Sep. 08 2012,17:24)
    [/quote]
    Carmel

    God is specifically speaking of the Israelites here in Jeremiah.

    Quote
    Jeremiah

    32:28 And they shall be my people,

    SO THEY NEVER WERE HIS PEOPLE


    you have the verse wrong.  That's ok I found it.

    Look Carmel what God is saying
    Jeremiah 32:36   And now therefore thus saith the Lord, the God of Israel, concerning this city, whereof ye say, it shall be delivered into the hand of the king of Babylon by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilince;
    (prophecy, understand what it means…future for Israel- ezekiel 14:21, read whole chapter, and read all of Ezekiel)

    Jeremiah 32:37   behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury and in great wrath, and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely.
    (prophecy future. Israel will be brought into the kingdom during the millennium – chosen ones only. Only then can they dwell safely)

    Jeremiah 32:38   And they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
    (Speaking of Israel here)

    Jeremiah 32:39   And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me forever, for the good of them, and of their children after them.
    (God will turn their hearts back to him)

    Quote
    and I will be their God

    SO HE WAS NEVER THEIR GOD


    They turned their back on him,
    now they also must be reconciled to God, but can only come through Christ,
    this will be fulfilled during the Millennium.

    Quote
    : 39And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:

    SO THEY NEVER HAD THE PROPER HEART,THE PROPER WAY, AND THEY NEVER FEARED HIM.


    They did once, but strayed

    Quote
    40And I will make an everlasting covenant with them,


    They didn't accept the new covenant with Christ,
    this their stumbling block,
    but God will make them know the new covenant, and write it in their hearts.  They will be taught when Christ returns

    Quote
    SO ALL THE PREVIOUS COVENANTS WERE NEVER OF GOD ALMIGHTY IN THE TRUTH,SINCE THEY WERE NOT EVERLASTING LIKE HIMSELF THE UNIQUE ATTRIBUTE OF ALMIGHTY GOD!!


    The old covenant was of God, to them, but they disobeyed.  The old covenant was a forerunner to the new one.  They couldn't even keep the old one, let alone accept the new one, but that will change for the remnant.

    Quote
    that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

    The Israelites have been complacent till this day, thinking that they are God's chosen people, so they think no harm will come to them,
    but God will show them that he has not been happy with them, and he will correct them,
    but he will punish them first,
    as they are his first born,
    and a Father that loves his children will chastise them
    for their own good and for his name's sake.
    He has mercy on us,
    he will also show mercy on them.

    Quote
    SO NO MATTER WHAT, FROM JESUS DEATH ONWARDS,CHRISTIANS WERE NEVER AND WOULD NEVER DEPART FOR GOD!!


    You misunderstood Jeremiah, read the letters to the 7 churches in revelations where God is telling his people to come out of Babylon.
    Many Christians, will fall, because of lack of knowledge, and only possessing  iip service, but God sees into the heart..
    Many will be deceived
    We can't be complacent
    We must all strive to not be like these.
     

    #312362
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Christianity has a paganistic triune “God” that are worship! :laugh:

    One of this so-called “Holy Trinity” they refer to as being 'The Word of “God”'.

    Trinity sminity! :laugh:

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #312363
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    In Christology, the conception that the Christ is the Logos (Greek: Λόγος for “word”, “discourse” or “reason”) has been important in establishing the doctrine of the divinity of Jesus Christ and his position as God the Son in the Trinity as set forth in the Chalcedonian Creed.
    SOURCE

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #312367
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 11 2012,07:08)
    Christianity has a paganistic triune “God” that are worship! :laugh:

    One of this so-called “Holy Trinity” they refer to as being 'The Word of “God”'.

    Trinity sminity! :laugh:

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    the apostles are christians

    are you not christian??? oh yeah.. you are the pagan

    #312368
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote
    Finally I leave you with the following OT scripture that suggests that God had a Son before the birth Of Jesus Christ on earth.

    Proverbs 30:4
    Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!


    SOURCE

    Proverbs 30:4. This verse — in the King James Version — reads:

    Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

    Once again, this particular scripture is TWISTED by the false ministers in the world who claim that it teaches that the Messiah was already in existence at that time. But this verse in NO WAY refers to the Messiah — and it is hard to believe that any serious student of the Bible could use this verse to justify such an under-standing. But, sadly, they do. Correctly translated, this verse reads:

    Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound up the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is HIS NAME? What is THE NAME of His sons? Tell me if you know!

    Here is a copy of Proverbs 30:4 from the Greek Septuagint Version, from which this verse was translated —

    Who hath ascended up to heaven and come down? Who hath collected the winds in his bosom? Who hath infolded the water in a mantle? Who hath a dominion over all the ends of the earth? What is his name? or what is the name of his sons?

    The Anchor Bible, Proverbs, on page 176, corroborates this translation and plainly says that the sons who are being spoken of refer to the HEAVENLY HOST — in other words, the ANGELS! Notice what it says —

    4. Who has ascended the sky. Cf. Job xxxviii 3-38; Isa xl 12ff.; Unless his name is known, neither god nor man can be known as real' cf. Gen xxxii 29; Exod iii 13; Isa lii 6. his sons'. The divine beings of the heavenly host; cf. Ps lxxxii 6; Job xxxviii 7. Surely you know. Cf. Job xxxviii 5.

    This was NOT speaking of the Messiah going back and forth from heaven to earth, this was speaking of YEHOVAH God's MESSENGERS — the angels! The Messiah was not an angel, as the Bible clearly states –

    Hebrews 1:13 — But to which of the angels has He ever said: Sit at My right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool?

    Hebrews 2:5 — For it is not to the angels that He has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking.

    Hebrews 2:16 — For truly, He does not take hold of angels, but He takes hold of the seed of Abraham.

    There are absolutely NO direct statements to the effect that any beings existed beside YEHOVAH God before He created the angels. But, there are MANY direct scriptures which say emphatically that YEHOVAH God was ALONE at creation, and that there was NONE BESIDE HIM!

    Isaiah 43:11 (King James Version) — I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

    Isaiah 44:6, 8 (King James Version) — Thus saith the King of Israyl, and his redeemer [YEHOVAH] of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside ME there is NO GOD. Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a GOD beside ME? yea, there is NO GOD; I know not any.

    Isaiah 45:5 (King James Version) — I am [YEHOVAH], and there is NONE ELSE, there is NO GOD beside ME: I girded thee, though thou has not known ME.
    SOURCE

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #312372
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 09 2012,11:38)
    Hi Mike,

    Our hands have handled, of “The Word” of life;” (1 John 1:1)
      This means that they spread the word of God;
      it's not about touching Jesus' body.


    I disagree, Ed.

    Read the whole passage:
    1 John 1
    1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.

    2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.

    3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us.

    Surely this is about Jesus Christ, the Word of God. How do you suppose John and the others “SAW” and “HANDLED” the word of God they preached? I could see your point if John had only said they “HEARD” the Word, because that is exactly how God's word was spread among the people – by word of mouth that others HEARD.

    But once you add “SAW” and “HANDLED WITH OUR OWN HANDS”, your interpretation can no longer be the correct one. 

    peace,
    mike

    #312373
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 09 2012,23:25)
    the father is God
    the son is God


    You can say it as many times as you want, jammin.

    If you think the Father is God Almighty, AND the Son is also God Almighty, then you believe in TWO God Almighties. There's really no way around it, because the word “AND” is a conjunction, and indicates that TWO (or more) are being spoken of.

    #312374
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 11 2012,11:00)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 11 2012,07:08)
    Christianity has a paganistic triune “God” that are worship! :laugh:

    One of this so-called “Holy Trinity” they refer to as being 'The Word of “God”'.

    Trinity sminity! :laugh:

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    the apostles are christians

    are you not christian??? oh yeah.. you are the pagan


    jammit,

    No, I am certainly not a Christian and I am certainly not a pagan. It is you and your fellow *cohorts who are clearly pagan in their following in paganistic Christian beliefs.

    *cohort – 1. part of an ancient **ROMAN ***LEGION. There were from 300 to 600 soldiers in each cohort, and ten cohorts in each ***LEGIONThorndike Barnhart Advanced Dictionary Second Edition by E. L. Thorndike/Clarence L. Barnhart, Scott, Foresman and Company ©1974 Scott, Foresman and Company, Greenview, Illinois (Emphasis in bold/underlining/capitalization mine.)

    **NOTE:
    Cf. “Holy ROMAN Catholic Church”

    ***LEGION:
    Then Yahshua asked him [the evil spirit], “What is your name?” “My name is LEGION,” he replied, “for we are many” (Yahchanan Mark 5:9).

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #312375
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (journey42 @ Sep. 10 2012,02:08)
    Look Carmel what God is saying……………..


    Good post, journey. :)

    #312376
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 10 2012,18:08)
    Isaiah 43:11 (King James Version) — I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.


    I'm surprised you used that one to illustrate your point, Frank.  Since we know that Jesus is also called our Savior, and we know that Jesus is not Jehovah, then it proves the claim in Isaiah 43:11 to be an emphatic statement, and not a literal one.

    Obviously, there have been many saviors – many of whom Jehovah Himself sent to His people.  (Nehemiah 9:27)

    So, knowing this from scripture, we can also know that Jehovah's statement was emphatical, and not literal.

    Likewise, since we know the scriptures are loaded with “many gods, in heaven and on earth”, we can also know that Isaiah 44:6, 8, and 45:5 are emphatical (not literal) statements as well.

    #312380
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 11 2012,11:54)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 10 2012,18:08)
    Isaiah 43:11 (King James Version) — I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.


    I'm surprised you used that one to illustrate your point, Frank.  Since we know that Jesus is also called our Savior, and we know that Jesus is not Jehovah, then it proves the claim in Isaiah 43:11 to be an emphatic statement, and not a literal one.

    Obviously, there have been many saviors – many of whom Jehovah Himself sent to His people.  (Nehemiah 9:27)

    So, knowing this from scripture, we can also know that Jehovah's statement was emphatical, and not literal.

    Likewise, since we know the scriptures are loaded with “many gods, in heaven and on earth”, we can also know that Isaiah 44:6, 8, and 45:5 are emphatical (not literal) statements as well.


    Mike,

    Why would you be surprised, since you know full well that I do not believe that Father Yahweh's son Yahshua pre-existed his birth as a “savior” and that I also believe that there is no other source of power (authority), strength or might [“god”] other than Father Yahweh “ALONE”, “BY HIMSELF” and with “NO OTHER BESIDE HIM”?

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #312381
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 11 2012,12:30)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 11 2012,11:54)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 10 2012,18:08)
    Isaiah 43:11 (King James Version) — I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.


    I'm surprised you used that one to illustrate your point, Frank.  Since we know that Jesus is also called our Savior, and we know that Jesus is not Jehovah, then it proves the claim in Isaiah 43:11 to be an emphatic statement, and not a literal one.

    Obviously, there have been many saviors – many of whom Jehovah Himself sent to His people.  (Nehemiah 9:27)

    So, knowing this from scripture, we can also know that Jehovah's statement was emphatical, and not literal.

    Likewise, since we know the scriptures are loaded with “many gods, in heaven and on earth”, we can also know that Isaiah 44:6, 8, and 45:5 are emphatical (not literal) statements as well.


    Mike,

    Why would you be surprised, since you know full well that I do not believe that Father Yahweh's son Yahshua pre-existed his birth as a “savior” and that I also believe that there is no other source of power (authority), strength or might [“god”] other than Father Yahweh “ALONE”, “BY HIMSELF” and with “NO OTHER BESIDE HIM”?

    WHO IS THE WORD?
    John Chapter One

    ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
    Exodus 32
    By Voy Wilks
    3/9/98

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    Mike,

    This also goes to show that you make Yahweh our Heavenly Father and Creator out to be a liar and that what His word actually says can not be trusted without your perversion applied to it!  ???

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