John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 8,601 through 8,620 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
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  • #305620
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 12 2012,16:15)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 12 2012,08:58)

    Quote (942767 @ July 12 2012,15:36)
    Hi:

    I have this revelation to share with you.

    The “Logos” which is “the Word which God has spoken” which in John 1 pertains to Jesus “became flesh”.

    This the propetic Word of God which is not a spiritual being who became flesh otherwise you would have and “the Word was God” which you say is Jesus and if so, “Jesus is God” and “the Word became flesh” or “God became flesh”.

    On the other hand Jesus stated the following when explaining what he meant by stating that he was the bread of life that came down from heaven and explaining those scriptures about eating his flesh and drinking his blood:

    Quote
    Jhn 6:63   It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life

    This is the Rhema Word of God which is the Word of God which is spoken to humanity with the intent of it being obeyed and so becoming a part of a person's spirit, and so, the “spirit” does not become “flesh” but the spirit is the life that is lived through the body which happens to be flesh.

    Hebrews 1 states:

    Quote
    Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,  

    Hbr 1:2   Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;  

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    Quote
    I have this revelation to share with you.

    this revelation of yours is not from scriptures nor is in line with them ,

    so I pass


    Pieear,

    Why pass? Why not state why you do not believe his revelation “is not from scriptures nor is in line with them”? Oh yeah! That's right! You can't function without the backing of your cronies Mike and t8!  :D


    F

    :D :D :D YOU CANNOT FUNCTION WITHOUT YOUR 1000 OTHER FRIENDS AND YOUR LENGHTY QUOTES THAT YOU ADVERTICED

    NEVER MIND SCRIPTURES THAT YOU MISS USE,

    i STAY AWAY FROM YOU

    :D :D

    #305625
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 12 2012,04:28)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 11 2012,12:40)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 11 2012,19:15)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 11 2012,11:56)
    f

    scriptures says MAIDEN  I think


    Yes, I do not believe that she was actually a “virgin” when she gave birth to Yahshua.


    f

    does it matter ??? she was a surrogate mother to Christ ,the son of God

    Pieear,

    I also do not believe that Miriam was a surrogate mother to Yahshua. I believe that Yahseph was the biological father of Yahshua.


    Pieear,

    Well, does it matter is Yahshua pre-existed his birth or not? I also do not believe that Miriam was a surrogate mother to Yahshua. I believe that Yahseph was the biological father of Yahshua.

    PAREIDOLIA


    Hi Frank,

    Jesus is God's only begotten son; 'YOU' do not believe this Biblical truth?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #305627
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (942767 @ July 11 2012,14:18)
    Hi Mike:

    You added that the word WHO to the scripture.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Well Marty,

    Since this Word became flesh and tabernacled (dwelled) among other human beings, and since those other human beings saw HIS glory, I understand this particular Word as a “who”.  But I'll rephrase it for you in the effort of bringing you to the place I am trying to bring you:

    Quote (942767 @ July 08 2012,18:27)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2012,05:23)

    Quote (942767 @ July 01 2012,16:23)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 02 2012,01:14)

    Quote (942767 @ June 30 2012,20:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2012,10:14)
    Marty,

    Is it scriptural that John the Baptist called Jesus “the Lamb of God” – even though Jesus wasn't literally a lamb?  YES or NO?


    Yes.


    Hi Marty,

    And is it scriptural that Jesus is called by the name “the Word of God” – even though he is not literally a spoke word from God?   YES or NO?


    Yes.


    And is it scriptural that Jesus is called the “monogenes” Son of God?  YES or NO?


    Yes.


    And is it scriptural that the Word THAT became flesh dwelled on earth with the glory of the “monogenes” Son of God?  YES or NO?

    #305628
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 11 2012,02:34)
    Mike,

    Love is the sum of God's Word.

    Since all things were created by God's Word they are begotten by it while it is begotten by God.


    Hi Kerwin,

    Here is the actual question I asked:

    And is love ever said to be the only begotten of God, or have the glory of such?

    Please answer with an affirmative or a negative.

    #305630
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (942767 @ July 11 2012,15:36)
    This the propetic Word of God which is not a spiritual being who became flesh otherwise you would have and “the Word was God” which you say is Jesus and if so, “Jesus is God” and “the Word became flesh” or “God became flesh”.


    Marty,

    You will NEVER come to a true understanding of scripture until you rid yourself of the Trinitarian translation, “and the Word was God”.  Using this flawed translation, it wouldn't matter WHAT the Word was, because John 1:14 will ALWAYS end up teaching that God became flesh.

    It's a simple equation:

    THE WORD WAS GOD + THE WORD BECAME FLESH = GOD BECAME FLESH

    Now, it appears that you don't believe God became flesh, right?  Neither do I.  But there is no SENSIBLE way around God becoming flesh when using that flawed translation of John 1:1c.

    Nor does that flawed translation make a lick of sense to begin with.  Marty, when you wrote the post I'm responding to, was Marty with you?

    See?  If you ARE Marty, there is no way you can also be WITH Marty.  The only way MARTY can be with MARTY is if there are more than one MARTY.  And the only way GOD can be with GOD is if there are more than one GOD.

    Marty, John 1:1 speaks of a Word who was with THE God in the beginning, and was also a god.  This one, as a god himself, was existing in the form of THE God, but became flesh (emptied himself and was made in the likeness of a human being).

    Eventually, you will know this for a fact.  I'm just trying to get you there a little sooner.

    #305631
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (terraricca @ July 11 2012,16:16)
    Christ apparently did not include his mother in the twelve personal disciples ,and so she was NOT one chosen to be one of them by God,got it ???


    Mark 3
    31 Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”
      33 “Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked.

    34 Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.

    Jesus beheld his own mother as nothing compared to his disciples who did the will of God.

    #305632
    kerwin
    Participant

    T;

    It is not written that Mary was Jesus’ surrogate mother. You conclude that is so because you do not understand how a person can have two fathers; The first the father of their flesh; and the second the father of their spirit. What Scripture declares is that Jesus’ flesh form was made of a woman and made under the Law; while his spirit form comes from above.

    #305633
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ July 12 2012,09:36)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 12 2012,04:28)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 11 2012,12:40)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 11 2012,19:15)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 11 2012,11:56)
    f

    scriptures says MAIDEN  I think


    Yes, I do not believe that she was actually a “virgin” when she gave birth to Yahshua.


    f

    does it matter ??? she was a surrogate mother to Christ ,the son of God

    Pieear,

    I also do not believe that Miriam was a surrogate mother to Yahshua. I believe that Yahseph was the biological father of Yahshua.


    Pieear,

    Well, does it matter is Yahshua pre-existed his birth or not? I also do not believe that Miriam was a surrogate mother to Yahshua. I believe that Yahseph was the biological father of Yahshua.

    PAREIDOLIA


    Hi Frank,

    Jesus is God's only begotten son; 'YOU' do not believe this Biblical truth?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Ed J,

    I believe that it is a Scriptural truth that Yahshua is Father Yahweh's only begotten son. There are many more sons (daughters, children) to be “born (begotten) again” of Father Yahweh. These many other sons (daughters, children) who will also be begotten (born again) also previously had biological earthly fathers and mothers just as Yahshua did.

    PAREIDOLIA

    #305634
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 12 2012,09:22)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 12 2012,16:15)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 12 2012,08:58)

    Quote (942767 @ July 12 2012,15:36)
    Hi:

    I have this revelation to share with you.

    The “Logos” which is “the Word which God has spoken” which in John 1 pertains to Jesus “became flesh”.

    This the propetic Word of God which is not a spiritual being who became flesh otherwise you would have and “the Word was God” which you say is Jesus and if so, “Jesus is God” and “the Word became flesh” or “God became flesh”.

    On the other hand Jesus stated the following when explaining what he meant by stating that he was the bread of life that came down from heaven and explaining those scriptures about eating his flesh and drinking his blood:

    Quote
    Jhn 6:63   It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life

    This is the Rhema Word of God which is the Word of God which is spoken to humanity with the intent of it being obeyed and so becoming a part of a person's spirit, and so, the “spirit” does not become “flesh” but the spirit is the life that is lived through the body which happens to be flesh.

    Hebrews 1 states:

    Quote
    Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,  

    Hbr 1:2   Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;  

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    Quote
    I have this revelation to share with you.

    this revelation of yours is not from scriptures nor is in line with them ,

    so I pass


    Pieear,

    Why pass? Why not state why you do not believe his revelation “is not from scriptures nor is in line with them”? Oh yeah! That's right! You can't function without the backing of your cronies Mike and t8!  :D


    F

    :D  :D  :D YOU CANNOT FUNCTION WITHOUT YOUR 1000 OTHER FRIENDS AND YOUR LENGHTY QUOTES THAT YOU ADVERTICED

    NEVER MIND SCRIPTURES THAT YOU MISS USE,

    i STAY AWAY FROM YOU

    :D  :D


    Pieear,

    Great! I will never be bothered again by the likes of you then, right? :D

    #305635
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 07 2012,15:24)
    t8,

    Nowhere in Scripture does it ever say “Yahshua pre-existed his birth as an actual being.” There is also no mention in Scripture from where we are to get our doctrine for reproof and correction and instruction in righteousness of a son named Yahshua that was with Father Yahweh in the beginning that He created through. Also, nowhere in Scripture am I ever asked to believe and confess such foolshness!


    Jesus said, “before Abraham I am”.

    If I said to you, “I think therefore I am”.
    You would take that to mean that I think therefore I exist.

    This is one instance where you say there are none.

    #305636
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 12 2012,16:59)
    T;

    It is not written that Mary was Jesus’ surrogate mother.  You conclude that is so because you do not understand how a person can have two fathers; The first the father of their flesh; and the second the father of their spirit.  What Scripture declares is that Jesus’ flesh form was made of a woman and made under the Law; while his spirit form comes from above.


    K

    you still handling the terrestrial things ,and can not understand them ,you are sticking with the Law and and what is of the flesh ,

    surrogate means bearier '

    if you need to read more in scriptures please do ,it will help you

    #305637
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 12 2012,17:10)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 12 2012,09:22)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 12 2012,16:15)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 12 2012,08:58)

    Quote (942767 @ July 12 2012,15:36)
    Hi:

    I have this revelation to share with you.

    The “Logos” which is “the Word which God has spoken” which in John 1 pertains to Jesus “became flesh”.

    This the propetic Word of God which is not a spiritual being who became flesh otherwise you would have and “the Word was God” which you say is Jesus and if so, “Jesus is God” and “the Word became flesh” or “God became flesh”.

    On the other hand Jesus stated the following when explaining what he meant by stating that he was the bread of life that came down from heaven and explaining those scriptures about eating his flesh and drinking his blood:

    Quote
    Jhn 6:63   It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life

    This is the Rhema Word of God which is the Word of God which is spoken to humanity with the intent of it being obeyed and so becoming a part of a person's spirit, and so, the “spirit” does not become “flesh” but the spirit is the life that is lived through the body which happens to be flesh.

    Hebrews 1 states:

    Quote
    Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,  

    Hbr 1:2   Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;  

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    Quote
    I have this revelation to share with you.

    this revelation of yours is not from scriptures nor is in line with them ,

    so I pass


    Pieear,

    Why pass? Why not state why you do not believe his revelation “is not from scriptures nor is in line with them”? Oh yeah! That's right! You can't function without the backing of your cronies Mike and t8!  :D


    F

    :D  :D  :D YOU CANNOT FUNCTION WITHOUT YOUR 1000 OTHER FRIENDS AND YOUR LENGHTY QUOTES THAT YOU ADVERTICED

    NEVER MIND SCRIPTURES THAT YOU MISS USE,

    i STAY AWAY FROM YOU

    :D  :D


    Pieear,

    Great! I will never be bothered again by the likes of you then, right?  :D


    do you mean you will stay away from this site ???? :D :D

    #305641
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 12 2012,09:56)
    It's a simple equation:

    THE WORD WAS GOD + THE WORD BECAME FLESH = GOD BECAME FLESH


    Yes Mike, John 1:14 fulfills this…
    (Scripture needs to be understood as a whole!)

    1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
    God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels,
    preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    Matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son,
    and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #305644
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 12 2012,04:41)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 11 2012,02:34)
    Mike,

    Love is the sum of God's Word.

    Since all things were created by God's Word they are begotten by it while it is begotten by God.


    Hi Kerwin,

    Here is the actual question I asked:

    And is love ever said to be the only begotten of God, or have the glory of such?

    Please answer with an affirmative or a negative.


    Mike;

    You wish an answer according to the letter of the Word and I answered according to the spirit.  Love is an aspect of God's Word as it is the sum of his commands but God's Word also is full of the power of God as all things that have been created were created through it.

    Jesus has been created through God's Word and so is begotten of the Word; the same Word that is written in his heart and placed in his inward parts.  It is the life that is in the Word that makes him a son of God and it is the fact that only through him that others also have the Word  written on their minds and placed in their hearts, that makes him the Son of God.

    God is love and so is his Son; and those adopted through him.

    #305645
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 12 2012,10:05)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 12 2012,09:36)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 12 2012,04:28)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 11 2012,12:40)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 11 2012,19:15)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 11 2012,11:56)
    f

    scriptures says MAIDEN  I think


    Yes, I do not believe that she was actually a “virgin” when she gave birth to Yahshua.


    f

    does it matter ??? she was a surrogate mother to Christ ,the son of God

    Pieear,

    I also do not believe that Miriam was a surrogate mother to Yahshua. I believe that Yahseph was the biological father of Yahshua.


    Pieear,

    Well, does it matter is Yahshua pre-existed his birth or not? I also do not believe that Miriam was a surrogate mother to Yahshua. I believe that Yahseph was the biological father of Yahshua.

    PAREIDOLIA


    Hi Frank,

    Jesus is God's only begotten son; 'YOU' do not believe this Biblical truth?

    God bless
    Ed J


    Ed J,

    I believe that it is a Scriptural truth that Yahshua is Father Yahweh's only begotten son. There are many more sons (daughters, children) to be “born (begotten) again” of Father Yahweh. These many other sons (daughters, children) who will also be begotten (born again) also previously had biological earthly fathers and mothers just as Yahshua did.

    PAREIDOLIA


    Hi Frank,

    Jesus is no longer (according to Frank) God's only begotten son.       …is this what you believe?
    Have you not changed the meaning of the word “Begotten” then?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #305647
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 12 2012,09:16)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 12 2012,16:07)
    T;

    I did answer your question by speaking of Mary's two forms; one of the flesh and the other of the spirit.  No one is greater than those that have been reborn of the Spirit by the Word.  In the ways of the flesh Mary was honored above all other women in that she was chosen to be the mother of Jesus' flesh.


    K

    Christ apparently did not include his mother in the twelve personal disciples ,and so she was NOT one chosen to be one of them by God,got it ???

    Christ at many time as shown that relation in a family does not mean much because it is of the flesh;got it ???

    one more thing we as human believers are saved only by the grace of accepting it from God by believing in his son and so produce the fruit s their of ,so no fruits not saved ;got it ???
    (production of the fruits until dead that is )

    Mary was a surrogate(bearier ) mother, just like the prophets were surrogate ( bearier)of the word of God


    Pieear,

    Your getting your disciples and Apostles confused!

    Lukyah 6:17 – Yahshua came down with them and stood on a level place; and there was a large crowd of his disciples, and a great throng of people from all Yahdah and Yerusalem and the coastal region of Tyre and Sidon,

    Could seventy constitute a large crowd? Yes, it could, but, the scriptures indicate that Jesus had even more than that!

    Lukyah 10:1 Now after this the Master appointed seventy others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where he himself was going to come.

    If there were seventy “others“, then we can assume that there are more besides the others. Yahshua commanded his disciples to “Go and make more disciples” Strange how when someone becomes a believer, they call themselves “Christian”, but back then, they were called disciples. To be a disciple should be the goal.

    Yahchanan 4:1 – Therefore when the Master knew that the Pharisees had heard that Yahshua was making and immersing more disciples than Yahchanan

    Yahshua said: “Go and make disciples”. Once a disciple is made, the command then falls to him to go and make disciples. In the true order of things, there should, by now, be more disciples than we could count.

    The word 'disciple' in Hebrew is 'talmud' and simply means 'student' in our English language.

    Miriam, Yahshua's mother was most certainly one of his disciples (students), since Yahshua said “no man comes unto the Father, but by me.” She surely did not ignore and choose not to listen to anything that her son had to teach!

    GOT IT!  :D

    #305648
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 11 2012,17:05)
    …………..previously had biological earthly fathers and mothers just as Yahshua did.


    Luke 3:23
    Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli,

    #305650
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (t8 @ July 11 2012,17:12)
    This is one instance where you say there are none.


    :D

    #305651
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ July 12 2012,10:32)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 12 2012,10:05)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 12 2012,09:36)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 12 2012,04:28)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 11 2012,12:40)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 11 2012,19:15)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 11 2012,11:56)
    f

    scriptures says MAIDEN  I think


    Yes, I do not believe that she was actually a “virgin” when she gave birth to Yahshua.


    f

    does it matter ??? she was a surrogate mother to Christ ,the son of God

    Pieear,

    I also do not believe that Miriam was a surrogate mother to Yahshua. I believe that Yahseph was the biological father of Yahshua.


    Pieear,

    Well, does it matter is Yahshua pre-existed his birth or not? I also do not believe that Miriam was a surrogate mother to Yahshua. I believe that Yahseph was the biological father of Yahshua.

    PAREIDOLIA


    Hi Frank,

    Jesus is God's only begotten son; 'YOU' do not believe this Biblical truth?

    God bless
    Ed J


    Ed J,

    I believe that it is a Scriptural truth that Yahshua is Father Yahweh's only begotten son. There are many more sons (daughters, children) to be “born (begotten) again” of Father Yahweh. These many other sons (daughters, children) who will also be begotten (born again) also previously had biological earthly fathers and mothers just as Yahshua did.

    PAREIDOLIA


    Hi Frank,

    Jesus is no longer (according to Frank) God's only begotten son.       …is this what you believe?
    Have you not changed the meaning of the word “Begotten” then?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Ed J,

    I am not the one who determines who or how many are of Yahweh's children.

    #305652
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Ed J @ July 11 2012,17:27)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 12 2012,09:56)
    It's a simple equation:

    THE WORD WAS GOD + THE WORD BECAME FLESH = GOD BECAME FLESH


    Yes Mike, John 1:14 fulfills this…
    (Scripture needs to be understood as a whole!)

    1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
    God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels,
    preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    Matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son,
    and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Ed,

    1 Tim 3:16 says “HE was manifest in the flesh”, and it speaks of Jesus, not God.

    Immanuel means “God is with us”, meaning “God is on our side helping us”, which He proved by sending His firstborn Son as atonement for our sins.

    And I know we all crop other's posts when quoting, so we can respond to only certain parts, but really?  Can't you see how seeing my name above that big, bold, equation I made for Marty would make others think that I actually believed God came in the flesh?  Couldn't you have at least quoted the next two sentences along with it so people would know I don't actually believe that?

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