John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 841 through 860 (of 25,995 total)
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  • #100963
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi GB,
    Just one word at a time.
    We should not rush to defend dogmas.
    Presumption is an dangerous enemy of true faith

    #101032
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 11 2008,02:32)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 10 2008,17:11)
    Hi GM,
    It would be better to let scripture prove itself rather than adding human rationalisations.
    Let scripture speak and let every man be silent.

    Looking at Jn1.1-2 for provable understandings one part of the verse is repeated in Scripture.

    The WORD WAS WITH GOD.

    It occurs twice in Jn1 and once in 1Jn1.

    So that part is inviolable[2Cor13.1]

    So now you need to search for understandings for ther rest of the verse.
    Does THE WORD WAS GOD appear anywhere else in scripture?

    No.

    So we need to try and fit what is not understood with what is known.


    Nick……..So you are saying you choses to ignore scripture then, because it says the word WAS GOD. You say do you find it anywhere else Yet the scriptures are full of places where God spoke His Words, ” For GOD (SPOKE) in times past (THROUGH) the prophets, has in these latter days Spoken to us  (THROUGH) a son. Question, who SPOKE?, Its was GOD and what did GOD SPEAK His WORD, And who did He Speak HIS WORDS Through? Jesus said in many scriptures the words He Spoke were not His, But the WORDS of HIM who sent HIM.  If I were to send a person to you and say speak to NICK the exact words I amd telling you and He did would you assume that it was the person who i sent WORDS, no you would know it was MY WORDS and Hold me accountable for them no the messenger. It is the same thing with Jesus and the Father, you have to attribute the words of Jesus to the Father because they were HIS WORDS, not Jesus' as he plainly said. This whole concept of making Jesus the WORD is what trinitarians use to prove the trinity , GOD plainly said His words would not return without accomplishing what his purpose for them was. There is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD, and ONE TRUE WORD, And God's words represent HIMSELF, Just as yours and mine do.

    peace…………….gene


    That is wonderful my brother Gene,
    You have made as simple as that there is only one God and one mediator the man Jesus if not Paul was a lier in mentioning such words in 1 Tim 2:5.

    #101035
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 10 2008,22:30)

    Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 10 2008,16:57)
    Hi brother,
    How many times I have told here that I don't make the 'word' which was in the beginning with God is an attribute of God himself and it is His expression not a separate person from Himself. Please no more questions like whether an attribute will be with a person.

    Thanks
    Adam


    The Word was WITH the GOD.

    Jesus has a name written on him, “The Word of God”.

    Jesus is WITH God now.

    Therefore the Word of God is with God now, at his right hand side.

    So why not before, especially considering that he is the firstborn of all creation. Not even Adam was the firstborn of all creation.

    Also, Jesus is not just a substitute for Adam. In fact God made all things for him and through him.

    This is what the scriptures say.

    Saying that Jesus is just a man and then putting your trust in a man of flesh is not really what faith is about. It is putting your trust in the firstborn of all creation who fulfilled what Adam did not. Jesus came to destroy the works of the evil one. It doesn't say that he was created to destroy the works of the evil one, but that he came to do that.

    Thanks for listening.


    Hi brother T8,
    I appreciate your response to my post on Jn 1:1. But I ask you one thing; is Jesus another God besides the one God as you claim Jesus was the 'word' that was with God ?

    I read clearly in Jn 1:1 that “the word was God” nothing less than that. You also seem to say Jesus is not God but only Father is God then where your beliefs fit my brother as you say Jesus is the 'word' that was with God ?

    I believe Jesus is the man in whom the 'word of God' the expression of God tabernacled or taken abode in. That's why he is called as the image of the true God. He represents fully the true God. He is appointed as the savior of the world by the same God. If God appoints some body as Lord and savior there is no ambiguity in that. I fully agree with Jesus in all that he preached and he is the lord and savior of me. But I don't make him another God apart from that one and only God (Jn 5:44). Jesus has been exalted to the position above all angels and authorities even as a man. Please see Heb 2:5-9

    5 “For God hath not subjected unto angels the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place hath testified, saying: What is man, that thou art mindful of him? Or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou hast made him a little lower than the angels: thou hast crowned him with glory and honour and hast set him over the works of thy hands. 8 Thou hast subjected all things under his feet. For in that he hath subjected all things to him he left nothing not subject to him. But now we see not as yet all things subject to him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour: that, through the grace of God he might taste death for all”.

    It is God that is exalting a man or son of man above the angels and subjecting every thing under his power not Jesus by himself as you think. Please give credit to God who had made Jesus every thing what he is now possessing the name and fame.

    Thanks and blessings
    Adam

    #101039
    pulivarthy
    Participant

    20For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen” is spoken by us to the glory of God.
    11The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. 12And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.
    onseeing above examples, I understood that every word of God is fulfilled throgh jesus inclluding creation also.Now also, what has not yet fulfilled will become true jesus. therefore, I want to say Jesus was there in God even in old testment times and fulfilling all the words of God.when he came as son of man also, he was fulfilling what God wrote his words in law.for example, when God said, let there be light, light came through jesus works.Therefore, jesus, a witness to word of God is same yesterday,today and for ever doing the words/plans of God.his perennial duty is to cause come true what God words intend.Therefore, a perfect skilful personality of God.

    what you all say?
    psb

    #101047
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Pulivarthy,
    You are right that the son of God is called the “word of God”. I believe that He is the word of God in more than one ways. I believe that the first word of God spoken in the Bible referred to the Son of God, “Let there be light”. He was that light of life, physically and spiritually and still is. I think that was an announcement of His birth out of the womb of God as the literal firstborn son of God. “Let there be light” and there was the radiant new Son of God, the only begotten one. He was not created but born from the womb of God Himself. And since He is the literal firstborn of God, He is the only begotten God, the monogenes theos which means the only begotten God, John 1:18 NASB. He represented His Father in the old testament by coming in His Father's name and made appearances. He appeared before Abraham and told Him that He would have a son of his own with Sarah. The Son was not Himself the Most High God, for that belonged to His Father only. His Father was the only always existing one, not His Son. His Son could never be the always existing one because He had a beginning. They could never be both equal and both eternal as the trinity doctrine states. They are literally a Father and Son both with the title of God. God begat God, Man begat man.
    Anyways, that is what I think,
    LU

    #101049
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Adam,
    You say:
    “I fully agree with Jesus in all that he preached and he is the lord and savior of me. But I don't make him another God apart from that one and only God (Jn 5:44). Jesus has been exalted to the position above all angels and authorities even as a man. Please see Heb 2:5-9”

    You mentioned that “he is the lord and savior of me”.  It is also written that “He is our God and savior.”

    2 Peter1:1
    Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

    From His beginning He was the only begotten “God”.  Perhaps He was not exalted to the position as “our” God until He defeated death yet He was always God during His complete existence even in the beginning, He was God, the begotten God.  He has always been under the authority of His Father, the Most High God and that will never change.

    You can't disregard that He is our God and Savior, Adam.  It is definetly written.
    Have a great day,
    Kathi

    #101050
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    LU…..you are glorifing the messenger but not the one who sent Him, who is above all, this is something Jesus never did, saying if i glorify myself my glory is nothing, and again Jesus said I have glorified you (GOD) on the earth notice it was not himself he glorified. You need to read Adams post He has it right.

    Peace…..gene

    #101052
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Nick……right presumption is a danger to the truth, so why (presume) what is plainly written in John 1:1 should mean anything else then what it plainly says. why change the word (WORD) to mean the person Jesus then, and disqualify what the Apostle John meant, by saying He meant to say Jesus instead of what He wrote. While Jesus certainly did speak (GOD'S WORDS) to us those words were not HIS. The presumptions are in your court not ours, i as well as Adam believe He meant exactly what He wrote, and we don't have to assume or change anything ., Its preexistences and trinitarians who need to change the text to foster their ideologies not us.

    peace to you …….gene

    #101071
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi GB,
    First we establish what is possible to prove, then look at the rest of the verse.
    The Word was with God is proven.

    #101078
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Nick….Also the word (WAS)GOD is stated lets not leave that out. Just as your words are with you and are partof you so is God's word part of Him, For GOd said (WORD) let there be light and there was light. You can not separate GOD from His words, Jesus said the words are Spirit and GOD is Spirit, you can't arbitrarily separate them in an effort to fit you belief system, We must read it just as it is written and believe it that way, without inferring something else if the scripture says the word was GOD then it must be so, and if Jesus said the words weren't His then it must be so, and to try to get around that is forcing the text to fit your ideology as trinitarians do also.

    If we are going to do that i can present John 1:1 This way “in the beginning was the word (expressed intellect) and the word(expressed intellect) was with Elohim (POWERS) and the word (expressed intellect) was Elohim (POWERS) You see this would Just as easily fit what was said. No where does it say, (the WORD is Jesus in this text) that you and others are adding to the text, and both who do are preexistences and trinitarians , But not the text. IMO

    peace……….gene

    #101079
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi GB,
    No but his words are a challenge for us to resolve, words according to word?
    Should all women leave their hair long?

    1 Corinthians 11:15
    But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

    #101140
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Hi brother Gene,
    Those are excellent posts on Jn 1:1, if they don't agree with these understandings they make the God of the bible into Poly and mystery like any Trinitarian or Arian.

    Peace and love to you
    Adam

    #101150
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 12 2008,09:32)
    Hi GB,
    No but his words are a challenge for us to resolve, words according to word?
    Should all women leave their hair long?

    1 Corinthians 11:15
    But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.


    Nick…….you are excusing you and others speculations of what is written in John 1:1, in order to justify your position of speculation. Paul showing of a woman having long hair is scriptural, God did give women long hair for a covering, of beauty and glory, and i do believe He was inspired to write that. To show a principle of GOD. IMO

    peace to you………….gene

    #101154
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 11 2008,09:53)
    Hi Adam,
    You say:
    “I fully agree with Jesus in all that he preached and he is the lord and savior of me. But I don't make him another God apart from that one and only God (Jn 5:44). Jesus has been exalted to the position above all angels and authorities even as a man. Please see Heb 2:5-9”

    You mentioned that “he is the lord and savior of me”.  It is also written that “He is our God and savior.”

    2 Peter1:1
    Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

    From His beginning He was the only begotten “God”.  Perhaps He was not exalted to the position as “our” God until He defeated death yet He was always God during His complete existence even in the beginning, He was God, the begotten God.  He has always been under the authority of His Father, the Most High God and that will never change.

    You can't disregard that He is our God and Savior, Adam.  It is definitely written.
    Have a great day,
    Kathi


    Hi Gene,
    You wrote this:

    Quote
    LU…..you are glorifing the messenger but not the one who sent Him, who is above all, this is something Jesus never did, saying if i glorify myself my glory is nothing, and again Jesus said I have glorified you (GOD) on the earth notice it was not himself he glorified. You need to read Adams post He has it right.

    Peace…..gene

    Read this quote below again, it says that His Father is the “Most High God”. How is that not giving the glory to the Father?

    Quote
    He has always been under the authority of His Father, the Most High God and that will never change.

    By the way, Jesus is most certainly glorified now with the same glory that He had with the Father before the world was. If I glorify Him as one who is under the Father's authority and over all other authority, then I am agreeing with the Father who has glorified Him. If I glorify Jesus as our God and Savior I am also agreeing with the Father who has exalted Him and had it written of Him in 2 Peter 1:1. If I disagree with that, I do not glorify the Father or the Son because I lower the Son below His exalted place that the Father Himself has given Him.

    Good day,
    LU

    You disregard that Jesus is also our God and Savior, Gene. It is definitely written. See 2 Peter 1:1

    #101184
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Lu…..Jesus is not my GOD and savior, I have a GOd and Savior who is the same one as Jesus had and I think He is just as capable of saving me as He did Jesus. I View Jesus as my brother who the Father placed over us because He is the first born of the Family of Humanity to fully image God the Father and The Father placed Him over us all, so i do give him that honor and believe we should all obey him, to the Glory of the Father.IMO

    #101225
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Gene,
    So 2 Peter 1:1 refers to another Jesus Christ?
    LU

    #101227
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 13 2008,02:56)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 12 2008,09:32)
    Hi GB,
    No but his words are a challenge for us to resolve, words according to word?
    Should all women leave their hair long?

    1 Corinthians 11:15
    But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.


    Nick…….you are excusing you and others speculations of what is written in John 1:1,  in order to justify your position of speculation. Paul showing of a woman having long hair is scriptural, God did give women long hair for a covering, of beauty and glory, and i do believe He was inspired to write that. To show a principle of GOD. IMO

    peace to you………….gene


    also, it is helpful to know that Paul wrote to the Corinthians, and that it was common knowledge that the temple prostitutes had very short hair. So that Christian women were sure to be totally separate in the minds of the people from the temple prostitutes, they were to keep their hair long.

    “Eastern society at that time was very jealous over its women. Except for the temple prostitutes, the women wore long hair and, in public, wore a covering over their heads. (Paul did not use the word veil, i.e., a covering over the face. The woman put the regular shawl over her head, and this covering symbolized her submission and purity.) For the Christian women in the church to appear in public without the covering, let alone to pray and share the Word, was both daring and blasphemous.—Bible Exposition Commentary – New Testament

    so women…. SOME women… were to keep their hair short is really no challenge at all. The fact that some do not accept what the bible teaches about God's nature is what the challenge is 😉

    blessings.
    Ken

    #101228
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    2 Peter 1:1 (ESV)
    1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:”

    seems pretty straightforward to me….. Jesus is God and Savior…. anyone with an elementary reading level could figure this one out ehhh? Trinitarianism is merely a nickname for simple biblical faith…. we do not have to confuse things with all these different man-made philosophies and traditions about who Jesus is, thank God. No…. all we have to do is say what the bible says about who Jesus is, and the bible says that Jesus is God.

    blessings,
    Ken

    #101230
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    epitemaniac…..Then why did Jesus say “tho art the (ONLY)TRUE GOD”, them if Jesus is the real GOD who is the savior of all men. While the word God can be other then the true God in the expressions of (POWERS) but still Jesus made certain we all know who was the (ONLY)TRUE GOD. and that did not include Him. To me Peter was saying Jesus (AND) GOD were in concert with each other not being one and the same. Your rewording is forcing the text, IMO

    Love and peace to you and yours………..gene

    #101235
    dirtyknections
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 14 2008,01:25)
    Gene,
    So 2 Peter 1:1 refers to another Jesus Christ?
    LU


    Again…this verse does not prove the trinity…The dispute in this verse is usually over whether Sharp's “article+substantive-kai-substantive” rule should apply or not.

    First of all, if you check other translations you will notice that this verse is rendered differently…secondly, to render it the way you quoted would make it out of line with what Peter expressed later in those same books and the way the greek was used…note these passages:

    2 Peter 1:11…11Then our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will give you a glorious welcome into his kingdom that will last forever.

    2 Peter 2:20…20When they learned about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they escaped from the filthy things of this world. But they are again caught up and controlled by these filthy things, and now they are in worse shape than they were at first.

    Notice the syriac translation…”SIMON PETER, a servant and legate of Jesus the Messiah, to those who have obtained equally precious faith with us, through the righteousness of Our Lord and Redeemer, Jesus the Messiah;”

    If the Syriac is correct, then we should plainly see that this verse is not referring to Jesus as GOD. The Syriac is probably correct, since this is the expression that Peter used in 2 Peter 1:11; 2:20; 3:2 and 3:18.

    Even if Jesus is being called “THEOS” in this verse, this would not mean that Jesus is GOD since the Greek word THEOS, based on the Hebrew words EL and ELOHIM, can take on a more general meaning than Supreme Being, or a false “god”.* Yahweh is the God and Father of Jesus. (Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; 1 Peter 1:3) The Father of Jesus is the only true God who sent Jesus. (John 17:1,3; Deuteronomy 18:15-19) Jesus is not the only true God who sent him.

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