John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 8,461 through 8,480 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #304991
    942767
    Participant

    Hi Kerwin:

    How did John the baptist recognize the Word of God in Jesus?

    Sin is defined as “the transgression of the Law”, and an infant has not transgressed the Law, and therefore, I disagree with you that infants have a sin nature. The scripture states that all of humanity born of the sperm of man have sinned, and that is true. An infants parents are responsible for a child, and so if the parents are not Christians, the child is said to be unclean. Not beca.use the child has sinned, but because the parents do not have a personal relationship with Him. Children of Christian parents are part of the body of Christ as children who are under the law of God through their parents. Of course, once they can make a decision for themselves as to whether or not they want to serve God, they will also have to make that decision.

    And so, my understanding is that all infants including Jesus were born in innocence, but the scripture states this:

    Quote
    Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all

    Quote
    Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done

    The scripture states that Jesus was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, but no, David was not his biological Father, God was his Father, but in a sense Jesus did have two fathers in that Joseph was his step-father and raised him under the Law of Moses. Jesus asks the Pharisees:

    Quote
    Mat 22:41 ¶ While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,

    Mat 22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David.

    Mat 22:43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,

    Mat 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

    Mat 22:45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

    Of course, all men born of the sperm man cannot be a part of the kingdom of God unless they are born again, because all men have sinned. And yes, we are saved by faith believing the Word of God, and coming to him with a repentant heart.

    You say:

    Quote
    When a person of flesh is born by the Word; the Word becomes flesh and makes a home among them for they become the temple of God’s Spirit.

    Jesus stated the following:

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    Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

    And so, no, the Word of God does not become flesh. If you obey the Word of God, it becomes part of your spirit. But John 1:14 the Logos became flesh, that is, what God had stated concerning his Son into this world became flesh or a reality. Do you see the difference?

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #304992
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ July 04 2012,03:56)

    Quote (942767 @ July 03 2012,12:52)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 03 2012,08:48)

    And is it scriptural that, WHILE JESUS WAS ON EARTH, he was the only begotten Son of God?  YES or NO?


    No.


    No?


    Hi Ed:

    I said no, because of the following scripture:

    Quote
    Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

    Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God

    But since the disciples did not receive the Holy Ghost until the day of Pentecost, perphaps I should have answered yes instead of no.

    Thanks for keeping me honest.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #304993
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 03 2012,15:23)
    Marty

    Quote
    No, the first verse states:

    In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth.

    And, so this had to happen before he tells us about transforming the heavens and the earth and creating the host of them thereof.

    what is your NO means you are quoting what I have quoted ?????????????????????

    Quote
    The following verse that you posted verifies this:

    Quote
    Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible

    this you muddy it up ,so please clear it up.

    Quote
    The problem is that you want to post scriptures out of context and trying to justify what you believe, and so you post the following scriptures:

    COL 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
    COL 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible,

    But the scriptures in context are as follows:

    Quote
    Col 1:12   Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:  

    Col 1:13   Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:  

    Col 1:14   In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:  

    Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:  

    Col 1:16   For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:  

    Col 1:17   And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.  

    Col 1:18   And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.  

    Col 1:19 ¶ For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;  

    Col 1:20   And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.  

    Col 1:21   And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled  

    Col 1:22   In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:  

    Col 1:23   If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

    sorry but this “all the verses that Paul talks about his definitively Christ after and before his resurrection and so ;RO 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,

    now ;
    Col 1:15   Who is (not become )the image of the invisible God, the firstborn ( not of men)of every creature:  

    Col 1:16   For by him were all things created(no exceptions), that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:  

    Col 1:17   And he is before all things(not after all things), and by him all things consist.

    those verses are now saying who he his and what has happen ;PAUL UNDER NO CONDITION TALK ABOUT CHRIST ACCOMPLISHMENT AS A MAN  ;BUT SHOW HOW GOD DID RECONCILED ALL THING AND BY WHOM GOD DID IT ” HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON THAT HE SEND FROM HEAVEN TO BE BORN OF A WOMEN SO HE COULD BE VESTED LIKE HIS FUTURE BROTHERS,

    NOW WEN PAUL SAYS “ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM “WOULD THAT NOT INCLUDED MARY THE WOMAN THAT GIVE HIM BIRTH AS A HUMAN?? OR ALL THINGS ARE WITH EXCLUSIVES SO WHAT WOULD BE NOT INCLUDED IN THE “IN ALL THINGS” ???

    NOW THIS ;

    Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things(things not yet done as well), and through whom he made the universe.
    Heb 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful Word(Christ). After he( the Word of God ,Christ) had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.(so went back to heaven)

    are not the words of Paul the same in Col;15-20  than in Hebrew 1;as quoted why is it said ???and through whom he made the universe.??? in Col it says this ; For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,TELL ME WITCH IS A LIE ????

    Quote
    And this one which states that he was foreordained, and he was, but he did not literally exist until he was born into this world of the virgin Mary which the scripture confirms because the scripture again makes reference to his blood.

    Rev 22:6 The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.”

    Rev 21:14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

    Jn 17:6 “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

    according to your definition of preordained we have to include THE TWELVE APOSTLES,ALL THE PROPHETS ,AND ALL THE PROPHECIES GIVEN BY GOD ,

    NOTICE THAT ALL HAVE PLAY A ROLE IN THE FINAL PLAN OF GOD AND STILL WILL ;TO BRING IT TO ITS END .

    Quote
    In John 6:

    Jesus makes the statement that he came down from heaven, and he speaks of eating his flesh and drinking his blood, and so he was speaking about himself as a man, and we know that he did not exist as a man until he was born of the virgin Mary.  But when he speaks of eating his flesh and drinking his blood, he is actually speaking of what he did for us in the body giving his life through obeying God even unto death on the cross so that we could be saved.  He said, in explaining what he meant by eating his flesh and drinking his blood,

    YOU are quick to point out what you do not accept with what you do not understand ,and so nullify the words that Christ said ,AND YOU ARE LIVING IN THE TRUTH ??? WITCH ONE ? YOURS OF CAUSE ,NOT GODS TRUTH.

    Quote
    and we know that he did not exist as a man until he was born of the virgin Mary.

    WE KNOW THAT HE EXISTED IN HEAVEN AND THAT HE WAS SEN BY HIS FATHER TO COME ON EARTH TO FULFILL ALL WHAT WAS SAID ABOUT HIM (THE CHRIST)THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD,MARY WAS PART OF THAT FULFILLMENT AS IT SAYS ;THE MAIDEN WILL GIVE BIRTH OF A SON ;…..JOHN THE BAPTIST TESTIFY TO THIS BY SAYING ; Jn 1:15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”

    SO FAR YOU HAVE PROVEN TO ME AND OTHERS THAT YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN SCRIPTURES UNLESS IT IS WORKED OUT THE WAY YOU SEE IT AND UNDERSTAND IT THAT IT SHOULD BE UNDERSTOOD BY YOU AND SO BY ALL OTHERS ,

    SORRY BUT THIS IS NOT THE WAY THAT SCRIPTURES ARE TEACHING THE WORDS OF GOD AND IT NOT THE WAY CHRIST HAS TEACHES ,SO I STICK WITH SCRIPTURES ,AND YOU CAN STICK TO YOUR OWN MEN MADE CONCEPT.

    ThesaurusLegend:  Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
    Adj.1.foreordained – established or prearranged unalterably; “his place in history was foreordained”; “a sense of predestinate inevitability about it”; “it seemed predestined since the beginning of the world”
    predestinate, predestined
    sure, certain – certain to occur; destined or inevitable; “he was certain to fail”; “his fate is certain”; “In this life nothing is certain but death and taxes”- Benjamin Franklin; “he faced certain death”; “sudden but sure regret”; “he is sure to win”
    Based on WordNet 3.0, Farlex clipart collection. © 2003-2012 Princeton University, Farlex Inc.

    UNDERSTAND THAT THE WORDS OF GOD NEVER FAILS TO BE ACCOMPLISHED ,BUT THE TRUTH HIS THE TRUTH ,ALL THINGS HAVE BEEN CREATED THROUGH HIM ..ALL THINGS ..ALL THINGS

    COL 1:26 that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,
    COL 1:27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.


    Hi Pierre:

    There is no use continuing this converstation with you, I will just pray that God will correct me if I am wrong in my understanding of His Word, and that He will correct you if you are wrong.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #305000
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ July 05 2012,14:17)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 03 2012,15:23)
    Marty

    Quote
    No, the first verse states:

    In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth.

    And, so this had to happen before he tells us about transforming the heavens and the earth and creating the host of them thereof.

    what is your NO means you are quoting what I have quoted ?????????????????????

    Quote
    The following verse that you posted verifies this:

    Quote
    Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible

    this you muddy it up ,so please clear it up.

    Quote
    The problem is that you want to post scriptures out of context and trying to justify what you believe, and so you post the following scriptures:

    COL 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
    COL 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible,

    But the scriptures in context are as follows:

    Quote
    Col 1:12   Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:  

    Col 1:13   Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:  

    Col 1:14   In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:  

    Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:  

    Col 1:16   For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:  

    Col 1:17   And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.  

    Col 1:18   And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.  

    Col 1:19 ¶ For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;  

    Col 1:20   And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.  

    Col 1:21   And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled  

    Col 1:22   In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:  

    Col 1:23   If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

    sorry but this “all the verses that Paul talks about his definitively Christ after and before his resurrection and so ;RO 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,

    now ;
    Col 1:15   Who is (not become )the image of the invisible God, the firstborn ( not of men)of every creature:  

    Col 1:16   For by him were all things created(no exceptions), that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:  

    Col 1:17   And he is before all things(not after all things), and by him all things consist.

    those verses are now saying who he his and what has happen ;PAUL UNDER NO CONDITION TALK ABOUT CHRIST ACCOMPLISHMENT AS A MAN  ;BUT SHOW HOW GOD DID RECONCILED ALL THING AND BY WHOM GOD DID IT ” HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON THAT HE SEND FROM HEAVEN TO BE BORN OF A WOMEN SO HE COULD BE VESTED LIKE HIS FUTURE BROTHERS,

    NOW WEN PAUL SAYS “ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM “WOULD THAT NOT INCLUDED MARY THE WOMAN THAT GIVE HIM BIRTH AS A HUMAN?? OR ALL THINGS ARE WITH EXCLUSIVES SO WHAT WOULD BE NOT INCLUDED IN THE “IN ALL THINGS” ???

    NOW THIS ;

    Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things(things not yet done as well), and through whom he made the universe.
    Heb 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful Word(Christ). After he( the Word of God ,Christ) had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.(so went back to heaven)

    are not the words of Paul the same in Col;15-20  than in Hebrew 1;as quoted why is it said ???and through whom he made the universe.??? in Col it says this ; For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,TELL ME WITCH IS A LIE ????

    Quote
    And this one which states that he was foreordained, and he was, but he did not literally exist until he was born into this world of the virgin Mary which the scripture confirms because the scripture again makes reference to his blood.

    Rev 22:6 The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.”

    Rev 21:14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

    Jn 17:6 “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

    according to your definition of preordained we have to include THE TWELVE APOSTLES,ALL THE PROPHETS ,AND ALL THE PROPHECIES GIVEN BY GOD ,

    NOTICE THAT ALL HAVE PLAY A ROLE IN THE FINAL P
    LAN OF GOD AND STILL WILL ;TO BRING IT TO ITS END .

    Quote
    In John 6:

    Jesus makes the statement that he came down from heaven, and he speaks of eating his flesh and drinking his blood, and so he was speaking about himself as a man, and we know that he did not exist as a man until he was born of the virgin Mary.  But when he speaks of eating his flesh and drinking his blood, he is actually speaking of what he did for us in the body giving his life through obeying God even unto death on the cross so that we could be saved.  He said, in explaining what he meant by eating his flesh and drinking his blood,

    YOU are quick to point out what you do not accept with what you do not understand ,and so nullify the words that Christ said ,AND YOU ARE LIVING IN THE TRUTH ??? WITCH ONE ? YOURS OF CAUSE ,NOT GODS TRUTH.

    Quote
    and we know that he did not exist as a man until he was born of the virgin Mary.

    WE KNOW THAT HE EXISTED IN HEAVEN AND THAT HE WAS SEN BY HIS FATHER TO COME ON EARTH TO FULFILL ALL WHAT WAS SAID ABOUT HIM (THE CHRIST)THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD,MARY WAS PART OF THAT FULFILLMENT AS IT SAYS ;THE MAIDEN WILL GIVE BIRTH OF A SON ;…..JOHN THE BAPTIST TESTIFY TO THIS BY SAYING ; Jn 1:15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”

    SO FAR YOU HAVE PROVEN TO ME AND OTHERS THAT YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN SCRIPTURES UNLESS IT IS WORKED OUT THE WAY YOU SEE IT AND UNDERSTAND IT THAT IT SHOULD BE UNDERSTOOD BY YOU AND SO BY ALL OTHERS ,

    SORRY BUT THIS IS NOT THE WAY THAT SCRIPTURES ARE TEACHING THE WORDS OF GOD AND IT NOT THE WAY CHRIST HAS TEACHES ,SO I STICK WITH SCRIPTURES ,AND YOU CAN STICK TO YOUR OWN MEN MADE CONCEPT.

    ThesaurusLegend:  Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
    Adj.1.foreordained – established or prearranged unalterably; “his place in history was foreordained”; “a sense of predestinate inevitability about it”; “it seemed predestined since the beginning of the world”
    predestinate, predestined
    sure, certain – certain to occur; destined or inevitable; “he was certain to fail”; “his fate is certain”; “In this life nothing is certain but death and taxes”- Benjamin Franklin; “he faced certain death”; “sudden but sure regret”; “he is sure to win”
    Based on WordNet 3.0, Farlex clipart collection. © 2003-2012 Princeton University, Farlex Inc.

    UNDERSTAND THAT THE WORDS OF GOD NEVER FAILS TO BE ACCOMPLISHED ,BUT THE TRUTH HIS THE TRUTH ,ALL THINGS HAVE BEEN CREATED THROUGH HIM ..ALL THINGS ..ALL THINGS

    COL 1:26 that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,
    COL 1:27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.


    Hi Pierre:

    There is no use continuing this converstation with you,  I will just pray that God will correct me if I am wrong in my understanding of His Word, and that He will correct you if you are wrong.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    :) :)

    #305002
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ July 05 2012,14:14)

    Quote (Ed J @ July 04 2012,03:56)

    Quote (942767 @ July 03 2012,12:52)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 03 2012,08:48)

    And is it scriptural that, WHILE JESUS WAS ON EARTH, he was the only begotten Son of God?  YES or NO?


    No.


    No?


    Hi Ed:

    I said no, because of the following scripture:

    Quote
    Jhn 1:12   But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:  

    Jhn 1:13   Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God

    But since the disciples did not receive the Holy Ghost until the day of Pentecost, perphaps I should have answered yes instead of no.

    Thanks for keeping me honest.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    Jn 20:22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

    this was 50 days before the high room

    #305008
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2012,00:35)
    Kerwin, is there at least one time in scripture when the phrase “the word of God” does NOT refer to that which comes out of the mouth of God, but to the PERSON Jesus Christ?  YES or NO?


    Mike;

    I know of no Scriptures where Jesus is explicitly called the Word of God even as he is called Faithful and True.  I do of know one that states by the name of the Word just as he is called by the name of Faithful and True.

    So do the names Faithful and True loose their meaning when Jesus called by them?  I hold they do not but rather they make up who Jesus is; the same is true of the Word of God.

    #305012
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 04 2012,17:33)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2012,00:35)
    Kerwin, is there at least one time in scripture when the phrase “the word of God” does NOT refer to that which comes out of the mouth of God, but to the PERSON Jesus Christ?  YES or NO?


    Mike;

    I know of no Scriptures where Jesus is explicitly called the Word of God even as he is called Faithful and True.  


    Kerwin, you have just said to me: Mike;

    You are claiming Jesus has the title utterance of God.  I am saying he bears that title because his shape and words are the utterance of God.

    So I ask you: Does Jesus have as one of his many titles “the Word of God”?  YES or NO?

    #305018
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2012,05:51)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 04 2012,17:33)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2012,00:35)
    Kerwin, is there at least one time in scripture when the phrase “the word of God” does NOT refer to that which comes out of the mouth of God, but to the PERSON Jesus Christ?  YES or NO?


    Mike;

    I know of no Scriptures where Jesus is explicitly called the Word of God even as he is called Faithful and True.  


    Kerwin, you have just said to me: Mike;

    You are claiming Jesus has the title utterance of God.  I am saying he bears that title because his shape and words are the utterance of God.

    So I ask you:  Does Jesus have as one of his many titles “the Word of God”?  YES or NO?


    Mike;

    You are correct that I have already answered that question; though not with the yes or no you seem to prefer. I prefer essay answers in attempt to remove ambiguity and correct context. In this case we both seem to agree that Jesus has been given the title of the Word and so I am going into what that title means and why he was given it.

    >Jesus bears the title Faithful because his actions are faithful.

    >Jesus bears the title True because his actions are true.

    >Jesus bears the title Word because his actions are the same as the Word.

    #305019
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 05 2012,18:22)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2012,05:51)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 04 2012,17:33)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2012,00:35)
    Kerwin, is there at least one time in scripture when the phrase “the word of God” does NOT refer to that which comes out of the mouth of God, but to the PERSON Jesus Christ?  YES or NO?


    Mike;

    I know of no Scriptures where Jesus is explicitly called the Word of God even as he is called Faithful and True.  


    Kerwin, you have just said to me: Mike;

    You are claiming Jesus has the title utterance of God.  I am saying he bears that title because his shape and words are the utterance of God.

    So I ask you:  Does Jesus have as one of his many titles “the Word of God”?  YES or NO?


    Mike;

    You are correct that I have already answered that question; though not with the yes or no you seem to prefer.  I prefer essay answers in attempt to remove ambiguity and correct context. In this case we both seem to agree that Jesus has been given the title of the Word and so I am going into what that title means and why he was given it.

    >Jesus bears the title Faithful because his actions are faithful.

    >Jesus bears the title True because his actions are true.

    >Jesus bears the title Word because his actions are the same as the Word.


    k

    Quote
    so I am going into what that title means and why he was given it.

    so you can read Gods mind this is extraordinary ,you are a first man after Christ ;hmm hmm ???

    #305020
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 04 2012,18:22)
    I prefer essay answers in attempt to remove ambiguity and correct context.


    :)  I personally think you prefer essay answers to CREATE ambiguity.  

    But since we agree that THE PERSON Jesus Christ is KNOWN to have as one of his titles “the Word of God”,

    and we agree that Jesus is KNOWN to have been the only begotten of the Father,

    and we agree that Jesus was “made by Jehovah in the likeness of humanity” (your words),

    then it makes perfect logical AND scriptural sense that the Word of God who was with the Father in the beginning, but was then made into a human being, and dwelled as a human being on earth with the glory of the only begotten of the Father, is one and the same person as the one who bears the title “the Word of God” in Rev 19:13.

    Can you scripturally refute any of these points, Kerwin?

    Kerwin, who alone dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten?

    #305026
    kerwin
    Participant

    Marty,

    Quote
    How did John the Baptist recognize the Word of God in Jesus?

    I am not sure it is written but it seems reasonable that he listened to the Spirit that spoke through him. It is clear he did from the words of John 1:15 and Matthew 3:14.

    Quote
    Sin is defined as “the transgression of the Law”, and an infant has not transgressed the Law, and therefore, I disagree with you that infants have a sin nature.

    All human beings have the nature of sin as a result of the Fall; infants being humans are no exception. But Scripture declares that those who sin due to a true lack of knowledge receive fewer stripes than those that have knowledge, Luke 12:48. Infants do not have a righteousness and holiness that is like God’s but Jesus did as an infant and still does.

    Quote
    The scripture states that Jesus was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, but no, David was not his biological Father, God was his Father.

    Unlike the Pharisees, you answer Jesus’ “how” question in Matthew 22:45 when you state “Jesus was born of the seed of David”. I am confused how you believe someone can be the father of the flesh but not the biological father as genes are part of the flesh. Scripture declares Jesus a human and not a hybrid.

    #305030
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ June 13 2012,06:53)

    Quote (t8 @ June 12 2012,22:04)
    Nick, the Word was not THE God.


    Hi T8, opinions are NOT EVIDENCE. Scripture please?

    Three big logic fallacies that I see presented here:

    1. Opinions: opinions are presented as evidence.
    2. Scenarios: scenarios are presented as proof.
    3. Consensus: consensus is seen as conformation

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Wrong EdJ.

    Read the Greek. It is not saying that THE Word was THE God. The definite article is absent in John 1:1c. This is understood by all and can be checked by anyone.

    I didn't make it up. It is a verifiable fact. Check it out for yourself if you don't believe us.

    Why try and create a stumbling block here. You are wasting your stumbling block time because it is easy to check.

    #305031
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    There are a number of people in this thread that clearly disagree with these words.

    That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched —this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. We write this to make our joy complete.

    I happen to agree with it and I am guessing that Mike and Terricca agree according to what I have read of their posts on this subject.

    But I am pretty sure that some others have a problem with it. And I am guessing that these same people will say they don't have a problem with it, even though they do.

    #305034
    terraricca
    Participant

    t8

    Quote
    That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched —this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. We write this to make our joy complete.

    I happen to agree with it and I am guessing that Mike and Terricca agree according to what I have read of their posts on this subject.

    you guessed right ,I do agree with those scriptures the way they have been written,

    LK 6:46 “ Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?(or believe what I say )

    Jn 3:11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.
    Jn 3:12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

    I WANDER

    #305037
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 20 2012,10:25)
    I'm not sure “peculiar” is the word I would use.  :)

    But you're not all bad, Frank.  I have learned from your posts about the Trinity Doctrine and God's Name, etc.

    I still consider you a brother in that we both worship and serve only one God, Yahweh, and hold His only begotten Son in the highest esteem as our Lord, whom Yahweh set up over us and the church.


    Mike,

    I do not consider you as “a brother” and I do serve “YOUR one God”.

    #305040
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike;

    Quote
    then it makes perfect logical AND scriptural sense that the Word of God who was with the Father in the beginning, but was then made into a human being, and dwelled as a human being on earth with the glory of the only begotten of the Father, is one and the same person as the one who bears the title “the Word of God” in Rev 19:13.

    Where did you get person?  

    Jesus did not come to be called by the name of the Word until the Word was made flesh; except in God’s mind and through his prophecy.

    Where did you get “made into” as I find that instead he was “made in the likeness of men” and “made like unto his brethren”.

    >How is Jesus the Son of David?

    >How is Jesus the Son of God?

    Both these questions are answered by Scripture; the second when John speaks of the Word and the life therein.

    #305042
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ July 05 2012,20:10)

    Quote (Ed J @ June 13 2012,06:53)

    Quote (t8 @ June 12 2012,22:04)
    Nick, the Word was not THE God.


    Hi T8, opinions are NOT EVIDENCE. Scripture please?

    Three big logic fallacies that I see presented here:

    1. Opinions: opinions are presented as evidence.
    2. Scenarios: scenarios are presented as proof.
    3. Consensus: consensus is seen as conformation

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Wrong EdJ.

    Read the Greek. It is not saying that THE Word was THE God. The definite article is absent in John 1:1c. This is understood by all and can be checked by anyone.

    I didn't make it up. It is a verifiable fact. Check it out for yourself if you don't believe us.

    Why try and create a stumbling block here. You are wasting your stumbling block time because it is easy to check.


    Hi T8,

    Having the definite article or leaving it out makes no difference.

    Do you have any evidence to suggest otherwise?     …if you do, please produce it?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #305043
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    #305047
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 06 2012,11:20)
    Mike;

    Quote
    then it makes perfect logical AND scriptural sense that the Word of God who was with the Father in the beginning, but was then made into a human being, and dwelled as a human being on earth with the glory of the only begotten of the Father, is one and the same person as the one who bears the title “the Word of God” in Rev 19:13.

    Where did you get person?  

    Jesus did not come to be called by the name of the Word until the Word was made flesh; except in God’s mind and through his prophecy.

    Where did you get “made into” as I find that instead he was “made in the likeness of men” and “made like unto his brethren”.

    >How is Jesus the Son of David?

    >How is Jesus the Son of God?

    Both these questions are answered by Scripture; the second when John speaks of the Word and the life therein.


    Jesus did not come to be called by the name of the Word until the Word was made flesh; except in God’s mind and through his prophecy.

    SO KERWIN YOU ARE A MIND READER ???

    #305059
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 05 2012,11:20)
    Mike;

    Quote
    then it makes perfect logical AND scriptural sense that the Word of God who was with the Father in the beginning, but was then made into a human being, and dwelled as a human being on earth with the glory of the only begotten of the Father, is one and the same person as the one who bears the title “the Word of God” in Rev 19:13.

    Where did you get person?  


    Is it not a person who has the title “the Word of God” in Rev 19:13? Is it not a person who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son?

    I guess I don't understand the question.

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