John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 7,921 through 7,940 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #302312
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 14 2012,10:59)
    Ed,

    Of all the prophets God has spoken through, Jesus is the only one who is said to be called by the name “the Word of God”.


    Hi Mike,

    No-where is this stated?
    You only believe it because that
    is what the systems of religion teach.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #302316
    journey42
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ June 14 2012,11:13)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 14 2012,10:59)
    Ed,

    Of all the prophets God has spoken through, Jesus is the only one who is said to be called by the name “the Word of God”.


    Hi Mike,

    No-where is this stated?
    You only believe it because that
    is what the systems of religion teach.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Hi Edj

    Mike is correct.

    Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    regards
    Journey

    #302317
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 14 2012,10:59)
    Ed,

    Of all the prophets God has spoken through, Jesus is the only one who is said to be called by the name “the Word of God”.


    Mike,

    Certainly Yahshua is unique, since he is also the only prophet referred to as “a great high priest” in Scripture:

    Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Yahshua the son of Yahweh, let us hold fast our profession (Hebrews 4:14).

    For the word of Yahweh is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart (Hebrews 4:12).

    WHO IS THE WORD?

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #302319
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Frank,

    You already agree that the one called “the Word of God” in Rev 19 is Jesus. So you can play word games if you want to, but you will never be able to honestly say that Jesus is not “the Word of God”, because scripture says he is.

    #302321
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (journey42 @ June 14 2012,11:31)

    Quote (Ed J @ June 14 2012,11:13)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 14 2012,10:59)
    Ed,

    Of all the prophets God has spoken through, Jesus is the only one who is said to be called by the name “the Word of God”.


    Hi Mike,

    No-where is this stated?
    You only believe it because that
    is what the systems of religion teach.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Hi Edj

    Mike is correct.

    Revelation 19:13   And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    regards
    Journey


    Hi Georgie,

                          “The Word” is the “HolySpirit”!    
                            And “HolySpirit” is HE and I !
                   
                     
    Rev. 19:13 He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood.
    Isaiah 63:3 Their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments

    Revelation 19:15 He treadeth the winepress
    Isaiah 63:3 I have trodden the winepress alone

    Rev.19:13 His name is called The Word of God.
    Isaiah 63:11 He that put His HolySpirit within

                         But they rebelled, and vexed
                         his HolySpirit: therefore he
                         was turned to be their enemy,
                         and he fought against them.

    Isaiah 63:10 I will tread down the people in mine anger  
              …and I will bring down their strength to the earth.
    Revelation 19:15 Out of His mouth goeth (The Word) a sharp sword,
                                  that with it He should smite the nations.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #302322
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (journey42 @ June 14 2012,11:31)

    Quote (Ed J @ June 14 2012,11:13)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 14 2012,10:59)
    Ed,

    Of all the prophets God has spoken through, Jesus is the only one who is said to be called by the name “the Word of God”.


    Hi Mike,

    No-where is this stated?
    You only believe it because that
    is what the systems of religion teach.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Hi Edj

    Mike is correct.

    Revelation 19:13   And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    regards
    Journey


    journey42,

    Go back and read the posts. This is not what we are saying that Mike is not correct about. Yes, Mike is correct in that Scripture does say that Yahshua is called “The Word of Yahweh”, but he is not correct in saying “Yahshua IS the Word of Yahweh”, since Scripture nowhere says this. I myself am also in disagreement with Mike in saying that Yahshua pre-existed his birth as Father Yahweh's word and as “a god”. It seems that Mike is attempting to convince me that Yahshua pre-existed his birth and was with his and our Father Yahweh in the beginning as Yahweh's word and as “a god”. It seems that Mike can not get it through his thick head that I will never believe such foolishness, since nowhere in Scripture am I ever asked to believe and confess that Yahshua pre-existed his birth or that he was “God” or “a god” with his and our Father Yahweh in the beginning. I have no problem with his believing such foolishness, but to attempt to tell me that Scripture teaches such foolishness, I believe is futile on his part. It also seems that Mike is not satisfied that I believe and confess that Yahshua is the Messiah the son of the living Yahweh as Scripture plainly asks me to believe and confess, but that he believes that I should also believe and confess that Yahshua pre-existed his birth as Father Yahweh's word and as “a god” in the beginning. Again, I will never believe such foolishness!

    WHO IS THE WORD?

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #302324
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 14 2012,11:49)
    Frank,

    You already agree that the one called “the Word of God” in Rev 19 is Jesus.  So you can play word games if you want to, but you will never be able to honestly say that Jesus is not “the Word of God”, because scripture says he is.


    Mike,

    No, Scripture surely does not say ANYWHERE “Yahshua IS the word of Yahweh.”! This is not a “word game”. I am certainly not going to add unto Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word the word phase “Yahshua IS the word of Yahweh.” when it simply is not there in ANY translation that I am aware of!

    WHO IS THE WORD?

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #302330
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Frank,

    First of all, Ed doesn't believe Rev 19:13 speaks of Jesus.  He thinks it is the Holy Spirit who is called “the Word of God” in that verse.

    Secondly, it IS a word game you play.  If the chairman of the board was a guy named “John”, then we could say “John is the chairman”.  Now of course, John isn't literally half chair, half man, is he?  Just as Jesus is not literally any spoken word of Jehovah.

    Yet just as we can call John the chairman because it is his title, we can call Jesus the Word of God because it is his title.  And just as John is the chairman, Jesus is the Word of God.

    And just as people would roll their eyes at you if you walked into the board meeting claiming that John really wasn't the chairman because he's not half chair half man, many of us here are rolling our eyes at you concerning this similar, childish, word game you are attempting to play.

    #302333
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 14 2012,12:53)
    Frank,

    First of all, Ed doesn't believe Rev 19:13 speaks of Jesus.  He thinks it is the Holy Spirit who is called “the Word of God” in that verse.

    Secondly, it IS a word game you play.  If the chairman of the board was a guy named “John”, then we could say “John is the chairman”.  Now of course, John isn't literally half chair, half man, is he?  Just as Jesus is not literally any spoken word of Jehovah.

    Yet just as we can call John the chairman because it is his title, we can call Jesus the Word of God because it is his title.  And just as John is the chairman, Jesus is the Word of God.  

    And just as people would roll their eyes at you if you walked into the board meeting claiming that John really wasn't the chairman because he's not half chair half man, many of us here are rolling our eyes at you concerning this similar, childish, word game you are attempting to play.


    Mike,

    Surely you know by now that I am not in agreement with Ed J! :D It is you that plays word games as is evident from your last post, not I! My belief is in Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word and not in your word games. Your word game is adding unto Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word and in turn taking away from His word. You have yet to show me from ANY translation of Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word where it even EVER says “Jesus IS the word of God.” :D

    WHO IS THE WORD?

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #302334
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Frank,

    This is silly.  Jesus IS the one called by the name “the Word of God”.  I believe that John 1:1 speaks of the one called by the name “the Word of God” being with God in the beginning.

    I believe John 1:14 speaks of the one called by the name “the Word of God” becoming flesh.

    I believe 1 John 1:1 speaks of the disciples seeing and touching the one called by the name “the Word of God”.

    You obviously haven't yet received this truth, and so there's really no reason to keep going on about it.  I have challenged all of you to show ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE that would prohibit my understanding from being the truth.  I have made this challenge many times over the past couple of years – and to date, not one scripture has been brought forth from any of you non-preexisters.

    On the other side of the coin, I and some others here have compiled a list of over 50 scriptures that speak concerning the preexistence of Jesus.  Hmmmmm………. 50 pros, 0 cons so far.

    Frank, some of those 50 scriptures are as straightforward as Jesus himself saying, “I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN”, and some of you will see me “ASCEND TO WHERE I WAS BEFORE”.

    We offer these, and you offer squat.  What more is there to discuss?

    #302335
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 14 2012,13:05)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 14 2012,12:53)
    Frank,

    First of all, Ed doesn't believe Rev 19:13 speaks of Jesus.  He thinks it is the Holy Spirit who is called “the Word of God” in that verse.

    Secondly, it IS a word game you play.  If the chairman of the board was a guy named “John”, then we could say “John is the chairman”.  Now of course, John isn't literally half chair, half man, is he?  Just as Jesus is not literally any spoken word of Jehovah.

    Yet just as we can call John the chairman because it is his title, we can call Jesus the Word of God because it is his title.  And just as John is the chairman, Jesus is the Word of God.  

    And just as people would roll their eyes at you if you walked into the board meeting claiming that John really wasn't the chairman because he's not half chair half man, many of us here are rolling our eyes at you concerning this similar, childish, word game you are attempting to play.


    Mike,

    Surely you know by now that I am not in agreement with Ed J! :D It is you that plays word games as is evident from your last post, not I! My belief is in Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word and not in your word games. Your word game is adding unto Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word and in turn taking away from His word. You have yet to show me from ANY translation of Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word where it even EVER says “Jesus IS the word of God.”  :D

    WHO IS THE WORD?

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    Mike,

    BTW, I forgot to mention, the sword of the spirit is Father Yahweh's word! :)

    WHO IS THE WORD?

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #302336
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 14 2012,13:07)
    Frank,

    This is silly.  Jesus IS the one called by the name “the Word of God”.  I believe that John 1:1 speaks of the one called by the name “the Word of God” being with God in the beginning.

    I believe John 1:14 speaks of the one called by the name “the Word of God” becoming flesh.

    I believe 1 John 1:1 speaks of the disciples seeing and touching the one called by the name “the Word of God”.

    You obviously haven't yet received this truth, and so there's really no reason to keep going on about it.  I have challenged all of you to show ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE that would prohibit my understanding from being the truth.  I have made this challenge many times over the past couple of years – and to date, not one scripture has been brought forth from any of you non-preexisters.

    On the other side of the coin, I and some others here have compiled a list of over 50 scriptures that speak concerning the preexistence of Jesus.  Hmmmmm………. 50 pros, 0 cons so far.

    Frank, some of those 50 scriptures are as straightforward as Jesus himself saying, “I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN”, and some of you will see me “ASCEND TO WHERE I WAS BEFORE”.

    We offer these, and you offer squat.  What more is there to discuss?


    Mike,

    It is quite obvious that you are the one who is silly! :D

    WHO IS THE WORD?

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #302337
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 13 2012,20:05)

    Surely you know by now that I am not in agreement with Ed J!


    Then you probably shouldn't have told journey “This is not what we are saying that Mike is not correct about.”  Because that IS what Ed is trying to tell journey I'm not correct about.

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 13 2012,20:05)
    You have yet to show me from ANY translation of Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word where it even EVER says “Jesus IS the word of God.”


    Nor is there any scripture that specifically says, “Our Father Yahweh, who is in heaven, is the One who created the heavens and the earth”.  Yet we know it to be true from context and other scriptures, don't we?  Your point is null and void.

    #302338
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    Still not able to tell when the Spirit of God spoke through the man Jesus?

    #302339
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 14 2012,13:13)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 13 2012,20:05)

    Surely you know by now that I am not in agreement with Ed J!


    Then you probably shouldn't have told journey “This is not what we are saying that Mike is not correct about.”  Because that IS what Ed is trying to tell journey I'm not correct about.

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 13 2012,20:05)
    You have yet to show me from ANY translation of Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word where it even EVER says “Jesus IS the word of God.”


    Nor is there any scripture that specifically says, “Our Father Yahweh, who is in heaven, is the One who created the heavens and the earth”.  Yet we know it to be true from context and other scriptures, don't we?  Your point is null and void.


    Mike,

    It is obviously you who is null and void! :D

    WHO IS THE WORD?

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #302340
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    In the beginning there was God’s Grand Design, the declaration of His Intention and Purpose, and that declaration was with God as His project, and it was fully expressive of God Himself. This was with God in the beginning. Everything came into being through it, and without it nothing of what came into being existed. In it there was life and that life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness and the darkness does not overwhelm it. There came on the scene of history a man commissioned by God. His name was John. This man came as a witness [a preacher of the Gospel of the Kingdom, Matt. 3:2] so that he might bear witness to the light and that everyone might believe through him. He was not the Light himself, but he witnessed concerning the light. This was the genuine light which enlightens every man coming into the world.

    He was in the world and the world came into existence through him, and the world did not recognize him. He came to his own land and his own people did not accept him. As many, however, as did accept him, to these he gave the right to become children of God — namely the ones believing in his Gospel revelation, his religion. These were born not from blood, nor from the desire of the flesh nor from the desire of a male, but from God. And the word became a human being and tabernacled among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of a uniquely begotten Son from a Father, full of grace and truth.

    John witnessed concerning him and cried out with these words, “This was the one of whom I said, ‘The one coming after me has now moved ahead of me, because he always was my superior.’” Because from his fullness all of us have received grace followed by grace. Because the law was given by God through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time. A uniquely begotten Son, one who is in the bosom of the Father — he has explained God. And this is the witness of John, when the Jews sent a commission of priests and Levites to him from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” And he confessed and did not deny, “I am not the Christ.” And they asked him, “Who are you? Are you Elijah?” And he said, “I am not.” “Are you the prophet?” And he answered, “No.” And they said to him, “Who are you? So that we can give an answer to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?” He said, “I am the voice of one crying out in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way of the Lord God,’ as Isaiah the prophet spoke.” And the ones sent were from the Pharisees. And they asked him a further question, “Why do you baptize if you are not the Messiah, or Elijah or the prophet who was to come?” John answered them, “I am baptizing in water. Among you there stands one whom you do not recognize — the one coming after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.” These things happened in Bethany beyond the Jordan where John was baptizing.

    The next day he saw Jesus coming towards him and he said, “This is the lamb of God, the one who removes the sin of the world. This is the one of whom I said, ‘After me there comes a man who has now moved ahead of me, because he was always my superior.’ And I did not recognize him, but so that he might be recognized by Israel for that reason I came baptizing with water.” And John witnessed with these words: “I saw the spirit descending as a dove out of heaven and remaining on him, and I did not recognize him. But the one who sent me to baptize in water spoke to me and said, ‘The one on whom you see the spirit descending and remaining on him, he is the one who baptizes with holy spirit.’ And I saw this, and I have witnessed to the fact that this is the Son of the One God.”

    On the next day again John stood with two of his disciples, and seeing Jesus walking by, he said, “This is the Lamb of the One God.” And the two disciples heard him speaking and followed Jesus. Jesus, turning round and seeing them following him, said, “What are you looking for?” They said, “Rabbi (which translated means Teacher), where are you staying?” And he said to them, “Come and see.” And so they went and saw where he was staying and remained with him that whole day. And it was about the tenth hour. This was Andrew, the brother of Simon Peter, one of the two who had heard from John and followed him. He first found his brother Simon and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which translated means the Christ). He brought him to Jesus, and Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon the son of John. You will be called Cephas, which translated means Peter.” The next day Jesus wanted to go to Galilee, and he found Philip and said to him, “Follow me.” Now Philip was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. Philip then found Nathaniel and said to him, “The one about whom Moses wrote in the law and whom the prophets mentioned, we have found, Jesus, the son of Joseph from Nazareth.” Nathaniel said to him, “Can anything good come from Nazareth?” Philip said, “Come and see.” Jesus saw Nathaniel coming towards him and he said of him, “Behold a genuine Israelite in whom there is no guile.” Nathaniel said to him, “How is it that you know me?” Jesus answered him, “Before Philip called you, I saw you under the fig tree.” Nathaniel answered him, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God. You are the King of Israel.” Jesus answered him with these words: “Because I told you that I saw you under the fig tree, you are a believer? You will see greater things than this.” And he said to him, “I tell you on the authority of my Father, you will see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”
    SOURCE

    #302341
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Frank,
    The word of Anthony Buzzard?

    #302342
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 14 2012,13:13)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 13 2012,20:05)

    Surely you know by now that I am not in agreement with Ed J!


    Then you probably shouldn't have told journey “This is not what we are saying that Mike is not correct about.”  Because that IS what Ed is trying to tell journey I'm not correct about.

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 13 2012,20:05)
    You have yet to show me from ANY translation of Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word where it even EVER says “Jesus IS the word of God.”


    Nor is there any scripture that specifically says, “Our Father Yahweh, who is in heaven, is the One who created the heavens and the earth”.  Yet we know it to be true from context and other scriptures, don't we?  Your point is null and void.

    The Son never goes back to the Father. Jesus never says he will be returning to the Father as if he had
    been with Him previously, but:
    “…was going to God” (John 13:3).
    “I am going my way to the Father” (John 14:12, 28;
    16:28).

    “I am going to the Father” (John 16:10, 17).
    “I am ascending to my Father” (John 20:17).
    NWT, NKJV, NRSV, Rotherham, and KJV are
    main versions that are correct for all these verses. The
    NIV and some others wrongly report that Jesus was
    going back or returning. This is highly misleading. Jesus
    departed to go to the Father. He is never said to return to
    the Father.

    Misunderstood Issues

    The “sending” of Jesus was his commissioning from
    birth. All the prophets were sent and this has nothing to
    do with being alive before you are born.

    Sending of Jeremiah

    Jeremiah 1:5, 7, 10: “Before you proceeded to come
    forth from the womb I sanctified you. Prophet to the
    nations I made you…to all those to whom I shall send
    you…See, I have commissioned you this day.”
    Sending did not mean that Jeremiah literally preexisted
    and came down from heaven, but was
    commissioned at birth.

    Sending of John the Baptist

    John 1:6, Young’s Literal: “There came a man —
    having been sent from God — whose name is John.”
    The sending forth of John did not mean that he
    literally pre-existed and came down from heaven. It was
    simply a commissioning by God.

    Sending of the Disciples

    John 17:18: “Just as you sent me forth into the
    world, I also sent them [the disciples] forth into the
    world.”
    The sending forth of the disciples in the same way
    as Jesus was “sent forth into the world” did not mean
    that they pre-existed.

    Sending of Jesus

    Galatians 4:4: “God sent forth His Son, who came to
    be out of a woman.”
    Rengstorf in The Theological Dictionary of the New
    Testament says: “Linguistically there is no support for
    the thesis that in Galatians 4:4 the ex in exapostellein
    indicates that prior to the sending, the one sent was in
    the presence of the one who sent him” (Vol. 1, p. 406).
    Romans 8:3: “By sending His own Son in the
    likeness of sinful flesh.”
    1 John 4:14: “The Father has sent forth His Son as
    Saviour of the world.”
    1 John 4:9: “God sent forth His only-begotten Son
    into the world.”

    Jesus Was Raised Up and Then Sent

    Acts 3:26: “To you first, God, after raising up his
    Servant, sent him forth.”

    So no pre-human being was raised up in heaven and
    then sent down to earth. The sending came after Jesus
    was raised up at birth, just as Jeremiah was raised up at
    the time of his birth to be a prophet.

    What About 1 Timothy 3:16?

    “Who was manifested in flesh” (KIT). “He was
    revealed in flesh” (NRSV).
    James Dunn tells us that “manifested”
    (ephanerothe) simply means “appeared”:
    “Without any implication of previous hiddenness
    (cp John 9:3; Rom. 3:21; 2 Cor. 3:3; 4:10; 5:10; 1 John
    3:5, 8), so that the context becomes of crucial
    importance in determining the intended meaning of the
    text…In this case, there is no indication that the thought
    was intended to include a third stage of existence prior
    to appearance on earth…[that is] without any intention of
    implying a previous [pre-existent] hiddenness.”1
    Compare John 9:3: “that the works of God might be
    manifested in his case.” These “works” did not pre-exist
    literally.
    SOURCE

    #302343
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 14 2012,20:43)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 14 2012,13:13)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 13 2012,20:05)

    Surely you know by now that I am not in agreement with Ed J!


    Then you probably shouldn't have told journey “This is not what we are saying that Mike is not correct about.”  Because that IS what Ed is trying to tell journey I'm not correct about.

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 13 2012,20:05)
    You have yet to show me from ANY translation of Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word where it even EVER says “Jesus IS the word of God.”


    Nor is there any scripture that specifically says, “Our Father Yahweh, who is in heaven, is the One who created the heavens and the earth”.  Yet we know it to be true from context and other scriptures, don't we?  Your point is null and void.

    The Son never goes back to the Father. Jesus never says he will be returning to the Father as if he had
    been with Him previously, but:
    “…was going to God” (John 13:3).
    “I am going my way to the Father” (John 14:12, 28;
    16:28).

    “I am going to the Father” (John 16:10, 17).
    “I am ascending to my Father” (John 20:17).
    NWT, NKJV, NRSV, Rotherham, and KJV are
    main versions that are correct for all these verses. The
    NIV and some others wrongly report that Jesus was
    going back or returning. This is highly misleading. Jesus
    departed to go to the Father. He is never said to return to
    the Father.

    Misunderstood Issues

    The “sending” of Jesus was his commissioning from
    birth. All the prophets were sent and this has nothing to
    do with being alive before you are born.

    Sending of Jeremiah

    Jeremiah 1:5, 7, 10: “Before you proceeded to come
    forth from the womb I sanctified you. Prophet to the
    nations I made you…to all those to whom I shall send
    you…See, I have commissioned you this day.”
    Sending did not mean that Jeremiah literally preexisted
    and came down from heaven, but was
    commissioned at birth.

    Sending of John the Baptist

    John 1:6, Young’s Literal: “There came a man —
    having been sent from God — whose name is John.”
    The sending forth of John did not mean that he
    literally pre-existed and came down from heaven. It was
    simply a commissioning by God.

    Sending of the Disciples

    John 17:18: “Just as you sent me forth into the
    world, I also sent them [the disciples] forth into the
    world.”
    The sending forth of the disciples in the same way
    as Jesus was “sent forth into the world” did not mean
    that they pre-existed.

    Sending of Jesus

    Galatians 4:4: “God sent forth His Son, who came to
    be out of a woman.”
    Rengstorf in The Theological Dictionary of the New
    Testament says: “Linguistically there is no support for
    the thesis that in Galatians 4:4 the ex in exapostellein
    indicates that prior to the sending, the one sent was in
    the presence of the one who sent him” (Vol. 1, p. 406).
    Romans 8:3: “By sending His own Son in the
    likeness of sinful flesh.”
    1 John 4:14: “The Father has sent forth His Son as
    Saviour of the world.”
    1 John 4:9: “God sent forth His only-begotten Son
    into the world.”

    Jesus Was Raised Up and Then Sent

    Acts 3:26: “To you first, God, after raising up his
    Servant, sent him forth.”

    So no pre-human being was raised up in heaven and
    then sent down to earth. The sending came after Jesus
    was raised up at birth, just as Jeremiah was raised up at
    the time of his birth to be a prophet.

    What About 1 Timothy 3:16?

    “Who was manifested in flesh” (KIT). “He was
    revealed in flesh” (NRSV).
    James Dunn tells us that “manifested”
    (ephanerothe) simply means “appeared”:
    “Without any implication of previous hiddenness
    (cp John 9:3; Rom. 3:21; 2 Cor. 3:3; 4:10; 5:10; 1 John
    3:5, 8), so that the context becomes of crucial
    importance in determining the intended meaning of the
    text…In this case, there is no indication that the thought
    was intended to include a third stage of existence prior
    to appearance on earth…[that is] without any intention of
    implying a previous [pre-existent] hiddenness.”1
    Compare John 9:3: “that the works of God might be
    manifested in his case.” These “works” did not pre-exist
    literally.
    SOURCE


    F

    the word of God NEVER SAYS THAT ALL PEOPLE OR MEN WILL BELIEVE ,SO WHAT S YOUR POINT ????

    #302345
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 14 2012,13:36)
    Hi Frank,
    The word of Anthony Buzzard?


    Yahshua Came Down From Heaven

    The phrase “came down from heaven” is difficult for many to understand. The Jews did
    not understand either as we read in Jn. 6:42; “And they said, Is not this Yahshua, the
    son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he saith, I came
    down from heaven?” There is no doubt that Yahshua was emphasizing his heavenly and
    paternal origin, but in what sense was he declaring this? We have already seen that the
    phrase “sent from Yahweh” does not necessarily mean to exist side by side with and
    then leave Yahweh's presence. Neither does “came down from” mean something
    similar.

    Was Yahshua a pre-existent spirit being living side by side with Yahweh that was
    transformed into an embryo placed in Miriam's womb or was he actually “inside”
    Yahweh? Jn.17:8 teaches the latter. It reads, “For I have given unto them the words
    which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I
    came out from thee , and they have believed that thou didst send me.” The Greek word
    “exerchomai” translated “came out” specifically means to go out of something that you
    were inside of. In this case, Yahshua existed “inside” of Yahweh in a similar sense that
    Levi existed inside the “loins of his father” before he was born (Heb. 7:5-10). In that
    passage, Levi was not born yet, nor was his father Jacob. Yet, Levi was said to be in
    Abraham's loins (in the sense of future lineage). (The lineage of Messiah is spoken of in
    Mic 5:2 and it traces all the way back to his Father Yahweh). While it is difficult to
    perceive of the Almighty having an “inside,” that is what the text is saying. Yet, this, too,
    is figurative and equates with the mind of Yahweh.

    There will be those who will totally misunderstand my words, so let me clarify this. I am
    not suggesting the Almighty has “loins.” Nor am I suggesting Yahshua was conceived in
    any manner similar to the manner in which all men are conceived (through
    procreation/copulation). Yahweh is Spirit. His Holy Spirit “came upon” Miriam and
    miraculously caused her egg to receive the necessary DNA to create a 100% male
    child in her womb.

    Lu 1:35 says, “And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come
    upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy
    thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

    Yahshua declared this truth in Jn.16:27-30 as well. “For the Father himself loveth you,
    because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from Yahweh . I came
    forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to
    the Father. His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no
    proverb. Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man
    should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from Yahweh.” Yahshua
    could not come from Yahweh's side and from inside of Yahweh at the same time. Only
    one can be true.

    A verse that goes hand in hand with the phrase “came down from heaven” is Jn.6:62;
    “What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?” Yahshua's
    origin is not in question here. Those who reject the pre-existence doctrine should not
    reject Yahshua's heavenly origin or that his father was Yahweh. Yahshua was, at one
    time, in heaven. He existed in the loins of His Father Yahweh (in the sense of future
    lineage) until the appointed time of his earthly birth. Through Yahweh's miraculous Holy
    Spirit power He then created in Miriam's egg a 100% man. The belief that Yahshua
    was a spirit being that was miniaturized and placed directly into Miriam's womb without
    her egg being involved is unscriptural. If that were true, Miriam would merely be a
    surrogate mother and Yahshua would not be from the blood line of David.
    SOURCE

Viewing 20 posts - 7,921 through 7,940 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account