John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

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  • #302067
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 10 2012,01:15)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 08 2012,19:15)
    Mike,

    You actually believe in the magicians of Pharaoh?  :D


    Who turned the staffs into snakes, Frank?  Who turned water into blood.  Who made frogs come up onto the land?

    Can mere human beings do these things, Frank?  Or were they done by the power of the gods of Egypt, who Jehovah later passed judgment upon and punished?  (How does Jehovah pass judgment upon or punish a piece of stone?)

    2 Kings 3
    26 When the king of Moab saw that the battle had gone against him, he took with him seven hundred swordsmen to break through to the king of Edom, but they failed. 27 Then he took his firstborn son, who was to succeed him as king, and offered him as a sacrifice on the city wall. The wrath against Israel was great; they withdrew and returned to their own land.

    Who brought wrath down upon God's chosen people, Frank?

    Daniel 10:13
    But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.

    Who is the Prince of Persia that was able to detain a powerful angel sent from God for 21 days?  A man?

    Frank, it seems that you are basing your understanding on your flawed reasoning that the word “god” refers ONLY to the Almighty Creator of All Things.  But scripturally, there are many gods, both in heaven and on earth.  In fact, Jehovah assembles with them from time to time and passes judgment:

    Psalm 82:1
    God presides in the assembly of gods; in the midst of the gods he renders judgment.

    That is fitting, since Jehovah is the God OF gods.  Frank, who are some of these gods that Jehovah is the God OF?  Is He the God of “false idols”?


    Mike,

    Well, that answers my question then, you actually believe in Pharaoh's magicians!  :D

    Yahweh said to Moshe and Aaron, “When Pharaoh says to you, 'Perform a miracle,' then say to Aaron, 'Take your staff and throw it down before Pharaoh,' and it will become a snake.” So Moshe and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as Yahweh commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments. Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs. …

    Well, it certainly seems that Yahweh has won that bought with Pharaoh's magician's trickery (“LYING wonders, And with all DECEPTION of unrighteousness”).

    Go to Pharaoh in the morning as he goes out to the water. Wait on the bank of the Nile to meet him, and take in your hand the staff that was changed into a snake. Then say to him, 'Yahweh, the Mighty One of the Hebrews, has sent me to say to you: Let my people go, so that they may worship Me in the desert. But until now you have not listened. This is what Yahweh says: By this you will know that I am Yahweh: With the staff that is in my hand I will strike the water of the Nile, and it will be changed into blood. The fish in the Nile will die, and the river will stink; the Egyptians will not be able to drink its water.'” Yahweh said to Moshe, “Tell Aaron, 'Take your staff and stretch out your hand over the waters of Egypt–over the streams and canals, over the ponds and all the reservoirs'–and they will turn to blood. Blood will be everywhere in Egypt, even in the wooden buckets and stone jars.” Moshe and Aaron did just as Yahweh had commanded. He raised his staff in the presence of Pharaoh and his officials and struck the water of the Nile, and all the water was changed into blood. The fish in the Nile died, and the river smelled so bad that the Egyptians could not drink its water. Blood was everywhere in Egypt. And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: …

    Oh really? So, how could the magicians have turned the Nile to blood if it was already turned to blood? Note that it says “The fish in the Nile died, and the river smelled so bad that the Egyptians could not drink its water. Blood was everywhere in Egypt.” So, how could the magicians have caused the fish in the Nile to die and the water to smell so bad that the Egyptians could not drink its water when it was already in that condition? Could it be that these magicians were deceptive and lying about doing so with their enchantments?

    Pharaoh summoned Moshe and Aaron and said, “Pray to Yahweh to take the frogs away from me and my people, and I will let your people go to offer sacrifices to Yahweh.”

    If Pharaoh's magicians were so powerful why he did he not summon his magicians to take the frogs away from him and his people?

    Moshe said to Pharaoh, “I leave to you the honor of setting the time for me to pray for you and your officials and your people that you and your houses may be rid of the frogs, except for those that remain in the Nile.” “Tomorrow,” Pharaoh said. Moshe replied, “It will be as you say, so that you may know there is no one like Yahweh our Mighty One. The frogs will leave you and your houses, your officials and your people; they will remain only in the Nile.” After Moshe and Aaron left Pharaoh, Moses cried out to Yahweh about the frogs He had brought on Pharaoh. And Yahweh did what Moshe asked. The frogs died in the houses, in the courtyards and in the fields. They were piled into heaps, and the land reeked of them. But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moshe and Aaron, just as Yahweh had said. Then Yahweh said to Moshe, “Tell Aaron, 'Stretch out your staff and strike the dust of the ground,' and throughout the land of Egypt the dust will become gnats.” They did this, and when Aaron stretched out his hand with the staff and struck the dust of the ground, gnats came upon men and animals. All the dust throughout the land of Egypt became gnats. But when the magicians tried to produce gnats by their secret arts, they could not. And the gnats were on men and animals.

    Instead, he turned and went into his palace, and did not take even this to heart. And all the Egyptians dug along the Nile to get drinking water, because they could not drink the water of the river. Seven days passed after Yahweh struck the Nile. Then Yahweh said to Moshe, “Go to Pharaoh and say to him, 'This is what Yahweh says: Let my people go, so that they may worship Me. If you refuse to let them go, I will plague your whole country with frogs. The Nile will teem with frogs. They will come up into your palace and your bedroom and onto your bed, into the houses of your officials and on your people, and into your ovens and kneading troughs. The frogs will go up on you and your people and all your officials.'” Then Yahweh said to Moshe, “Tell Aaron, 'Stretch out your hand with your staff over the streams and canals and ponds, and make frogs come up on the land of Egypt.'” So Aaron stretched out his hand over the waters of Egypt, and the frogs came up and
    covered the land. But the magicians did the same things by their secret arts; they also made frogs come up on the land of Egypt.

    Oh really? How can it be proved that these magicians done the same thing when there were already frogs covering the land? Some trick? :D

    Every time that the magicians of Pharaoh try to challenge the mighty hand of Yahweh they fall short until they themselves agree that this is “The finger [or hand, spirit] of Yahweh.”

    The magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of Yahweh.” But Pharaoh's heart was hard and he would not listen, just as Yahweh had said. Then Yahweh said to Moshe, “Get up early in the morning and confront Pharaoh as he goes to the water and say to him, 'This is what Yahweh says: Let my people go, so that they may worship Me. If you do not let my people go, I will send swarms of flies on you and your officials, on your people and into your houses. The houses of the Egyptians will be full of flies, and even the ground where they are. “'But at that time I will deal differently with the land of Goshen, where My people live; no swarms of flies will be there, so that you will know that I, Yahweh, am in this land. I will make a distinction between my people and your people. This miraculous sign will occur tomorrow.'” And Yahweh did this. Dense swarms of flies poured into Pharaoh's palace and into the houses of his officials, and throughout Egypt the land was ruined by the flies. Then Pharaoh summoned Moshe and Aaron and said, “Go, sacrifice to your Mighty One here in the land.”

    Well, it seems that Pharaoh has lost confidence in his magicians in not summoning them this time, right? In fact, you will from here on out not hear of them performing any more of their mere TRICKS. :D

    But Moshe said, “That would not be right. The sacrifices we offer Yahweh our Mighty One would be detestable to the Egyptians. And if we offer sacrifices that are detestable in their eyes, will they not stone us? We must take a three-yom journey into the desert to offer sacrifices to Yahweh our Mighty One, as He commands us.” Pharaoh said, “I will let you go to offer sacrifices to Yahweh your Mighty One in the desert, but you must not go very far. Now commune for me.” Moshe answered, “As soon as I leave you, I will commune to Yahweh, and tomorrow the flies will leave Pharaoh and his officials and his people. Only be sure that Pharaoh does not act deceitfully again by not letting the people go to offer sacrifices to Yahweh.”

    Oh! Where are those supposedly powerful magicians now! :D

    The magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils that were on them and on all the Egyptians. But Yahweh hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moshe and Aaron, just as Yahweh had said to Moshe. Then Yahweh said to Moshe, “Get up early in the morning, confront Pharaoh and say to him, 'This is what Yahweh, the Mighty One of the Hebrews, says: Let My people go, so that they may worship Me, or this time I will send the full force of My plagues against you and against your officials and your people, so you may know that there is no one like Me in all the earth. For by now I could have stretched out My hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth. But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you My power and that My Name might be proclaimed in all the earth. You still set yourself against my people and will not let them go. Therefore, at this time tomorrow I will send the worst hailstorm that has ever fallen on Egypt, from the time it was founded till now. Give an order now to bring your livestock and everything you have in the field to a place of shelter, because the hail will fall on every man and animal that has not been brought in and is still out in the field, and they will die.'”

    Where are Pharaoh's powerful magicians now? :D

    Those officials of Pharaoh who feared the word of Yahweh hurried to bring their slaves and their livestock inside. But those who ignored the word of Yahweh left their slaves and livestock in the field. Then Yahweh said to Moshe, “Stretch out your hand toward the sky so that hail will fall all over Egypt–on men and animals and on everything growing in the fields of Egypt.” When Moshe stretched out his staff toward the sky, Yahweh sent thunder and hail, and lightning flashed down to the ground. So Yahweh rained hail on the land of Egypt; hail fell and lightning flashed back and forth. It was the worst storm in all the land of Egypt since it had become a nation. Throughout Egypt hail struck everything in the fields–both men and animals; it beat down everything growing in the fields and stripped every tree. The only place it did not hail was the land of Goshen, where the Ysrylites were. Then Pharaoh summoned Moshe and Aaron. “This time I have sinned,” he said to them. “Yahweh is in the right, and I and my people are in the wrong. Commune to Yahweh, for we have had enough thunder and hail. I will let you go; you don't have to stay any longer.” Moshe replied, “When I have gone out of the city, I will spread out my hands in communion to Yahweh. The thunder will stop and there will be no more hail, so you may know that the earth is Yahweh's. But I know that you and your officials still do not fear Yahweh Almighty.” (The flax and barley were destroyed, since the barley had headed and the flax was in bloom. The wheat and spelt, however, were not destroyed, because they ripen later.) Then Moshe left Pharaoh and went out of the city. He spread out his hands toward Yahweh; the thunder and hail stopped, and the rain no longer poured down on the land. When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts. So Pharaoh's heart was hard and he would not let the Ysrylites go, just as Yahweh had said through Moshe. Then Yahweh said to Moshe, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of Mine among them that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed My signs among them, and that you may know that I am Yahweh.” So Moshe and Aaron went to Pharaoh and said to him, “This is what Yahweh, the Mighty One of the Hebrews, says: 'How long will you refuse to humble yourself before Me? Let My people go, so that they may worship Me. If you refuse to let them go, I will bring locusts into your country tomorrow. They will cover the face of the ground so that it cannot be seen. They will devour what little you have left after the hail, including every tree that is growing in your fields. They will fill your houses and those of all your officials and all the Egyptians–something neither your fathers nor your forefathers have ever seen from the time they settled in this land till now.'” Then Moshe turned and left Pharaoh.

    What of Pharaoh's supposed great and powerful magicians? :D

    Pharaoh's officials said to him, “How long will this man be a snare to us? Let the people go, so that they may worship Yahweh their Mighty One. Do you not yet realize that Egypt is ruined?” Then Moshe and Aaron were brought back to Pharaoh. “Go, worship Yahweh your Mighty One,” he said. “But just who will be going?” Moshe answered, “We will go with ou
    r young and old, with our sons and daughters, and with our flocks and herds, because we are to celebrate a festival to Yahweh.” Pharaoh said, “Yahweh be with you–if I let you go, along with your women and children! Clearly you are bent on evil. No! Have only the men go; and worship Yahweh, since that's what you have been asking for.” Then Moshe and Aaron were driven out of Pharaoh's presence. And Yahweh said to Moshe, “Stretch out your hand over Egypt so that locusts will swarm over the land and devour everything growing in the fields, everything left by the hail.” So Moshe stretched out his staff over Egypt, and Yahweh made an east wind blow across the land all that yom and all that night. By morning the wind had brought the locusts; they invaded all Egypt and settled down in every area of the country in great numbers. Never before had there been such a plague of locusts, nor will there ever be again. They covered all the ground until it was black. They devoured all that was left after the hail–everything growing in the fields and the fruit on the trees. Nothing green remained on tree or plant in all the land of Egypt. Pharaoh quickly summoned Moshe and Aaron and said, “I have sinned against Yahweh your Mighty One and against you. Now forgive my sin once more and commune to Yahweh your Mighty One to take this deadly plague away from me.” Moshe then left Pharaoh and communed to Yahweh. And Yahweh changed the wind to a very strong west wind, which caught up the locusts and carried them into the Red Sea. Not a locust was left anywhere in Egypt. But Yahweh hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Ysrylites go. Then Yahweh said to Moshe, “Stretch out your hand toward the sky so that darkness will spread over Egypt–darkness that can be felt.” So Moshe stretched out his hand toward the sky, and total darkness covered all Egypt for three yoms. No one could see anyone else or leave his place for three yoms. Yet all the Ysrylites had light in the places where they lived. Then Pharaoh summoned Moshe and said, “Go, worship Yahweh. Even your women and children may go with you; only leave your flocks and herds behind.” But Moshe said, “You must allow us to have sacrifices and burnt offerings to present to Yahweh our Mighty One. Our livestock too must go with us; not a hoof is to be left behind. We have to use some of them in worshiping Yahweh our Mighty One, and until we get there we will not know what we are to use to worship Yahweh.” But Yahweh hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go. Pharaoh said to Moshe, “Get out of my sight! Make sure you do not appear before me again! The time you see my face again you will die.” “Just as you say,” Moshe replied, “I will never appear before you again.” Now Yahweh had said to Moshe, “I will bring one more plague on Pharaoh and on Egypt. After that, he will let you go from here, and when he does, he will drive you out completely. Tell the people that men and women alike are to ask their neighbors for articles of silver and gold.” (Yahweh made the Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people, and Moshe himself was highly regarded in Egypt by Pharaoh's officials and by the people.)

    What happened to those supposedly powerful magicians of Pharaoh? Were they not favorable and highly regarded by the people of Egypt any longer? :D

    So Moshe said, “This is what Yahweh says: 'About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn son of the slave girl, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt–worse than there has ever been or ever will be again. But among the Ysrylites not a dog will bark at any man or animal.' Then you will know that Yahweh makes a distinction between Egypt and Ysryl. All these officials of yours will come to Me, bowing down before Me and saying, 'Go, you and all the people who follow you!' After that I will leave.” Then Moshe, hot with anger, left Pharaoh. Yahweh had said to Moshe, “Pharaoh will refuse to listen to you–so that My wonders may be multiplied in Egypt.”

    What about the supposed powerful wonders of Pharaoh's magicians? :D

    Moshe and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but Yahweh hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Ysrylites go out of his country. Yahweh said to Moshe and Aaron in Egypt, “This month is to be for you the first month, the first month of your year. Tell the whole community of Ysryl that on the tenth yom of this month each man is to take a lamb for his family, one for each household. If any household is too small for a whole lamb, they must share one with their nearest neighbor, having taken into account the number of people there are. You are to determine the amount of lamb needed in accordance with what each person will eat. The animals you choose must be year-old males without defect, and you may take them from the sheep or the goats. Take care of them until the fourteenth yom of the month, when all the people of the community of Ysryl must slaughter them at twilight. Then they are to take some of the blood and put it on the sides and tops of the doorframes of the houses where they eat the lambs. That same night they are to eat the meat roasted over the fire, along with bitter herbs, and bread made without yeast. Do not eat the meat raw or cooked in water, but roast it over the fire–head, legs and inner parts. Do not leave any of it till morning; if some is left till morning, you must burn it. This is how you are to eat it: with your cloak tucked into your belt, your sandals on your feet and your staff in your hand. Eat it in haste; it is Yahweh's Passover. “On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn–both men and animals–and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am Yahweh.

    Well, I will stop here. It is quite obvious that this was not written to show the power of Pharaoh's magicians. It seems to me that they are most certainly rendered powerless in comparison to Father Yahweh!

    Certainly you have seen a show put on by magicians, right? Do you believe they actually possess powers? They certainly do! Their powers were merely amount to powers of LYING and DECEPTION.

    From what I have read in this account, I can only conclude that these magicians of Pharaoh could have merely used some kind of trickery (“signs and LYING wonders, And with all DECEPTION of unrighteousness”) to merely turn staffs into snakes. Certainly you have seen magicians do mere trick of this sort, right? But, I can see no evidence that they actually performed any of these other “miracles” that Yahweh had done. It seems to me that Pharaoh was deceived by his magicians because of his heart being hardened toward Yahweh and it seems to me that Mike has also been deceived and that his heart has also been hardened toward Yahweh.

    Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and LYING wonders, And with all DECEPTION of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be redeemed (2 Thessalonians 2:9-10).

    #302071
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Frank,

    The question was: Can mere human beings do the things that were done in Egypt? Well? Can they? Can a human being turn a staff into a snake, Frank?

    #302072
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 12 2012,13:07)
    Shall we go through my list one at a time, fellas?  Or do you feel more secure hiding behing your smug comments where you don't have to actually DISCUSS my points?  

    Let's take #2, for instance.

    All things were said to have been made through:

    1.  The Word (John 1:3)

    2.  The Son of God (Col 1:15, Heb 1:2)

    3.  Our Lord Jesus Christ  (1 Cor 8:6)

    Are they all the same person, or do you suppose all things were created through the Word, AND the Son of God, AND our Lord Jesus Christ?


    Mike,

    Father Yahweh's word is not a separate being apart from Himself! :D

    WHO IS THE WORD?

    #302074
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Hmmmmmmmm……………….

    So then it's God Himself who rides the white horse in Rev 19?

    #302075
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 12 2012,13:13)
    Frank,

    The question was:  Can mere human beings do the things that were done in Egypt?  Well?  Can they?  Can a human being turn a staff into a snake, Frank?


    Mike,

    Certainly magicians in this time period can appear to turn a staff into a snake as did Pharaoh's magicians! :D

    #302078
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Frank,
    If scripture says they DID do your disagree?

    #302081
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 12 2012,13:16)
    Hmmmmmmmm……………….

    So then it's God Himself who rides the white horse in Rev 19?


    Mike,

    You seem to forget that I myself do not believe Yahshua is LITERALLY Father Yahweh's word. Yahshua's title is called “The Word of Yahweh”, since Yahweh's word proceeds from his mouth sharper than any two-edged sword. Yahshua did not pre-exist his birth as a separate being apart from Father Yahweh in the beginning as His word.

    WHO IS THE WORD?

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    #302083
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 12 2012,13:20)
    Hi Frank,
    If scripture says they DID do your disagree?


    Nick,

    Certainly magicians in this time period can appear to turn a staff into a snake as did Pharaoh's magicians!

    #302084
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Frank,
    So long as we know you are above scripture we can understand you better.

    #302085
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 12 2012,13:28)
    Hi Frank,
    So long as we know you are above scripture we can understand you better.


    Nick,

    I have never proclaimed to be “above Scripture”, but you are most certainly below me with your snide remarks! :D

    #302086
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 12 2012,13:31)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 12 2012,13:28)
    Hi Frank,
    So long as we know you are above scripture we can understand you better.


    Nick,

    I have never proclaimed to be “above Scripture”, but you are most certainly below me with your snide remarks!  :D


    The magician who can walk on water: Dynamo crosses the River Thames on foot – without using a bridge
    By Gavin Allen
    UPDATED: 14:50 EST, 30 June 2011

    #302091
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 11 2012,20:17)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 12 2012,13:13)
    Frank,

    The question was:  Can mere human beings do the things that were done in Egypt?  Well?  Can they?  Can a human being turn a staff into a snake, Frank?


    Mike,

    Certainly magicians in this time period can appear to turn a staff into a snake as did Pharaoh's magicians!  :D


    Exodus 7
    10 Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake.

    11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts:

    12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake.

    The text says the magicians did the same thing Aaron did.  It doesn't say they appeared to do the same thing.

    So, do mere humans have the power to turn staffs into snakes?

    #302093
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 12 2012,19:45)
    Hi MB,
    Yes but none say it is the man Jesus.
    Is inference enough?


    N

    any suggestion as to whom it may be ?????

    #302094
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 11 2012,20:26)
    Mike,

    You seem to forget that I myself do not believe Yahshua is LITERALLY Father Yahweh's word. Yahshua's title is called “The Word of Yahweh”, since Yahweh's word proceeds from his mouth……………


    I don't believe Jesus was LITERALLY a spoken word(s) from Yahweh either, Frank.  It seems we both agree that Jesus has the title “the Word of God”.  It's just that I think it is Jesus being called by that title in John 1:1 and 1:14, and you don't.

    (Btw, I'm right and your wrong.  :)  )

    #302096
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 12 2012,20:44)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 12 2012,13:31)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 12 2012,13:28)
    Hi Frank,
    So long as we know you are above scripture we can understand you better.


    Nick,

    I have never proclaimed to be “above Scripture”, but you are most certainly below me with your snide remarks!  :D


    The magician who can walk on water: Dynamo crosses the River Thames on foot – without using a bridge
    By Gavin Allen
    UPDATED: 14:50 EST, 30 June 2011


    f

    Biblical epic: Magician Dynamo poses while standing in the middle of the River Thames where he performed an ILLUSION in which he appeared to walk on water

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news….XpReukp

    #302104
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 12 2012,13:07)
    Shall we go through my list one at a time, fellas?  Or do you feel more secure hiding behing your smug comments where you don't have to actually DISCUSS my points?  

    Let's take #2, for instance.

    All things were said to have been made through:

    1.  The Word (John 1:3)

    2.  The Son of God (Col 1:15, Heb 1:2)

    3.  Our Lord Jesus Christ  (1 Cor 8:6)

    Are they all the same person, or do you suppose all things were created through the Word, AND the Son of God, AND our Lord Jesus Christ?


    Hi Mike,

    The worlds were framed by “The Word” of God
    through (as in by means of) Jesus crucifixion.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #302105
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 12 2012,13:16)
    Hmmmmmmmm……………….

    So then it's God Himself who rides the white horse in Rev 19?


    Hi Mike,

    The HolySpirit.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #302111
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ June 12 2012,21:32)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 12 2012,13:16)
    Hmmmmmmmm……………….

    So then it's God Himself who rides the white horse in Rev 19?


    Hi Mike,

    The HolySpirit.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj

    :D :D :D :(

    #302136
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote
    Hi MB,
    You still struggle with the Word having been God?
    Must it fit your understanding before it can be approved?


    https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….8;st=30

    Nick, the Word was not THE God.
    And it also doesn't say the Word IS God in John 1:1.

    So even if it said 'the LOGOS IS GOD' which it doesn't, then I can show you in scripture where a city and an earthquake are both described as being elohim and that word is often translated in Greek as theos.

    In short, the word theos is not always in reference to the Most High God.

    #302166
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ June 12 2012,22:04)
    Nick, the Word was not THE God.


    Hi T8, opinions are NOT EVIDENCE. Scripture please?

    Three big logic fallacies that I see presented here:

    1. Opinions: opinions are presented as evidence.
    2. Scenarios: scenarios are presented as proof.
    3. Consensus: consensus is seen as conformation

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

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