John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 7,401 through 7,420 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #299087
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi T,
    You always tell others what scriptures ARE NOT SAYING
    but do not understand what they do say.

    #299088
    kerwin
    Participant

    T;

    What part do you not understand?

    1) God is spirit

    2) they that worship him are his children

    3) Jesus worships God and so is his Son.

    4) Jesus worships God in Spirit and so is the Son of his Spirit.

    In agreement; it is written:

    John 1
    King James Version (KJV)

    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    #299129
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Ed J @ May 22 2012,21:28)
    Hi Mike,

    Generated means manufactured.


    Ed,

    Did you see the fourth definition of “generate” that I listed from Dictionary.com?   ???

    Generate only means “manufactured” if the thing brought into existence was brought into existence through a manufacturing process.

    To procreate is also to generate, as the info I posted for you clearly lists.

    #299131
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ May 22 2012,21:51)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 23 2012,11:26)

    Quote (jammin @ May 22 2012,05:59)
    both are true.
    Christ has human nature
    Christ is also God by nature.

    as man, he does not know the hour of his coming.


    And wasn't he a man when Peter said he knows “all things”?


    Christ became flesh. GOD manifested in the flesh. not the father but the son


    So he was flesh when he knew all things, and he was flesh when he didn't know the day or the hour?

    How do you explain this discrepancy, jammin?

    #299133
    jammin
    Participant

    as MAN, he does not know the hour of his coming.
    as GOD, he knows all things.

    gill's exposition of the entire bible
    but my Father only; to the exclusion of all creatures, angels and men; but not to the exclusion of Christ as God, who, as such, is omniscient; nor of the Holy Spirit, who is acquainted with the deep things of God, the secrets of his heart, and this among others,

    #299135
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 23 2012,06:06)
    Revelations 19:13 explicitly declares that the Word is the name he is called by.  John 1:14 teaches us that name he is called by was made flesh and Galatians 4:4 teaches us that Jesus, the flesh, was made of a woman and made subject to the regulations of the Word.


    Boy, that's some serious denial, Kerwin!  :)

    First, you say that Jesus isn't the Word, but was only “called by that name”.  Hmmmm…………….  President Obama is “called by the name President”.  Isn't he truly the President?  I'm called by the name “Mike”.  Am I not truly “Mike”?

    Next, you say, “John 1:14 teaches us that name he is called by was made flesh”……….. seemingly with a straight face.  Do you seriously think a NAME Jesus was called by is what became flesh and dwelled among mankind with the glory of God's only begotten Son?   ???

    And finally, you miss the entire point jammin was making with Galatians 4:4.  Barnes explains the point better than jammin or I could:

    God sent forth his Son – This implies that the Son of God had an existence before his incarnation; see John 16:28. The Saviour is often represented as sent into the world, and as coming forth from God.

    Made of a woman – In human nature; born of a woman, This also implies that he had another nature than that which was derived from the woman. On the supposition that he was a mere man, how unmeaning would this assertion be! How natural to ask, in what other way could he appear than to be born of a woman? Why was he particularly designated as coming into the world in this manner? How strange would it sound if it were said, “In the sixteenth century came Faustus Socinus preaching Unitarianism, made of a woman!” or, “In the eighteenth century came Dr. Joseph Priestley, born of a woman, preaching the doctrines of Socinus!” How else could they appear? would be the natural inquiry. What was there special in their birth and origin that rendered such language necessary?

    This reasoning also applies to the many mentions of Jesus being the son of David……….ACCORDING TO THE FLESH.  The natural inquiry would be, “As opposed to WHAT?” ???

    Here is John 16:28, that Barnes alluded to:
    I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”

    Did Jesus go back to the Father only in spirit?  Or LITERALLY?  It seems to me that if he went TO the Father LITERALLY, then he also came FROM the Father and entered the world LITERALLY.

    #299136
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Jammin,
    So he was in a state of total confusion
    not knowing if he knew or not?

    #299138
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ May 23 2012,18:41)
    as MAN, he does not know the hour of his coming.
    as GOD, he knows all things.


    But haven't we already agreed that Jesus was MAN when he was said to “know all things”, and also MAN when he admitted that he didn't know the day or the hour?

    How can he “know all things” and not know the day and the hour of his return?

    (The answer is simple, jammin. “Know all things” was an emphatic statement giving reverence to Peter's Lord, and is not to be taken any more literally than David knowing “all things in the world”, or the disciples knowing “all things” through the Spirit.)

    #299143
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ May 24 2012,13:57)
    T;

    What part do you not understand?

    1) God is spirit

    2) they that worship him are his children

    3) Jesus worships God and so is his Son.

    4) Jesus worships God in Spirit and so is the Son of his Spirit.

    In agreement; it is written:

    John 1
    King James Version (KJV)

    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


    K

    YOUR ITEM 1) IS WRONG = GOD HIS A SPIRIT BEING,

                    2) WRONG AGAIN= NO ONE HIS CALLED HIS CHILDREN BUT THE OPPORTUNITY IS GIVEN TO SOME TO BECOME CHILDREN OF GOD, Jn 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—(PAY ATTENTION TO THE MANY CONDITION ARE INCLUDED IN THAT VERSE)

                     3) WRONG AGAIN =CHRIST IS NOT THE SON OF HIS FATHER BECAUSE HE WORSHIP HIM ,THIS IS RIDICULOUS,
    ARE YOU THE SON OF YOUR FATHER BECAUSE YOU RECOGNIZED HIM AS SUCH ??? IT SEEMS YOU HAVE NOTHING IN THE SAY ,? RIGHT ??

                      4) WRONG AND WRONG AGAIN ;= THE WORD BECAME FLESH BECAUSE THAT S THE WAY HIS FATHER WANTED IT TO BE,AND SO BECAME THE CHRIST (THE WORD WITH FLESH = CHRIST)

    John 1
    King James Version (KJV)

    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    THIS SCRIPTURES ARE SAYING THE TRUTH ,BUT MEN CAN NOT READ IT FROM GODS VIEW AND INTEND ,THEY ONLY READ IT FROM THEIR CORRUPTED MIND AND HEART .

    #299147
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 24 2012,11:20)

    Quote (Ed J @ May 22 2012,21:28)
    Hi Mike,

    Generated means manufactured.


    Ed,

    Did you see the fourth definition of “generate” that I listed from Dictionary.com?   ???

    Generate only means “manufactured” if the thing brought into existence was brought into existence through a manufacturing process.

    To procreate is also to generate, as the info I posted for you clearly lists.


    Hi Mike,

    Why do you insist on using terms that may be misleading?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #299161
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike;

    Offhand I will state Barnes appears not to have considered certain Scriptures; among them are:

    Matthew 11:11
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

    and

    Luke 7:28
    King James Version (KJV)

    28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

    also

    John 1:6
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

    #299187
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 24 2012,11:56)

    Quote (jammin @ May 23 2012,18:41)
    as MAN, he does not know the hour of his coming.
    as GOD, he knows all things.


    But haven't we already agreed that Jesus was MAN when he was said to “know all things”, and also MAN when he admitted that he didn't know the day or the hour?

    How can he “know all things” and not know the day and the hour of his return?  

    (The answer is simple, jammin.  “Know all things” was an emphatic statement giving reverence to Peter's Lord, and is not to be taken any more literally than David knowing “all things in the world”, or the disciples knowing “all things” through the Spirit.)


    mike,

    i already told you my answer but you are not reading it
    gill's exposition of the entire bible
    but my Father only; to the exclusion of all creatures, angels and men; but not to the exclusion of Christ as God, who, as such, is omniscient; nor of the Holy Spirit, who is acquainted with the deep things of God, the secrets of his heart, and this among others,

    #299188
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 24 2012,11:54)
    Hi Jammin,
    So he was in a state of total confusion
    not knowing if he knew or not?


    no. he has a nature of MAN and God.

    read the context for you to understand mat 24.36

    gill's exposition of the entire bible
    but my Father only; to the exclusion of all creatures, angels and men; but not to the exclusion of Christ as God, who, as such, is omniscient; nor of the Holy Spirit, who is acquainted with the deep things of God, the secrets of his heart, and this among others,

    #299192
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike;

    Quote
    God sent forth his Son – This implies that the Son of God had an existence before his incarnation; see John 16:28. The Savior is often represented as sent into the world, and as coming forth from God.

    John 1:6
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

    There is a man sent from God, whose name is Jesus, the Son of God; does not in any way hint at either Jesus or John preexisting. What applies to a parallel statement about one applies to the other as well; unless the context dictates otherwise. Barnes support for his claim is that other Scriptures that paraphrase the same words give the suspicion he comes from heaven.

    Quote
    Made of a woman – In human nature; born of a woman, This also implies that he had another nature than that which was derived from the woman. On the supposition that he was a mere man, how unmeaning would this assertion be! How natural to ask, in what other way could he appear than to be born of a woman? Why was he particularly designated as coming into the world in this manner? How strange would it sound if it were said, “In the sixteenth century came Faustus Socinus preaching Unitarianism, made of a woman!” or, “In the eighteenth century came Dr. Joseph Priestley, born of a woman, preaching the doctrines of Socinus!” How else could they appear? would be the natural inquiry. What was there special in their birth and origin that rendered such language necessary?

    Matthew 11:11
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

    and

    Luke 7:28
    King James Version (KJV)

    28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

    Again Barnes fails to consider that John is placed in the group of those said to be born of women. It does support the hypothesis that both Jesus and John are born of women and so are human; with human natures.

    We clearly see that contrary to what Barnes claims; Jesus is not particularly designated as coming into the world by being born of women.

    Stating that a human being is born of women is not strange; but it is an idiom used to express related but different ideas.

    Matthew 11:11 and Luke 7:28 is speaking of two group; the first is those born of women; the second is those in the kingdom of heaven; even though some of the later are born of women; Jesus is the Archetype of the later.

    Now let us compare this to what I claimed.

    1} I claim that the Word is the name Jesus is called by.
    2} I claim that name was made flesh
    3} I claim the flesh it was made was made of women and made subject to the requirements of the Word; which is the Law.

    I supported all of my claims by Scripture; though you find them uncomfortable.

    The Word was not made of women but the flesh was. The Word was not made subject to the requirements of the Law because the Word is the Law; the flesh was made subject. The Word is the form of God while the flesh is the form of flesh and blood.

    Matthew 16:17
    King James Version (KJV)

    17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

    #299193
    kerwin
    Participant

    T;

    Scripture itself declares God is Spirit; and desires his children to worship him in the spirit; for it is written:

    John 4:24
    King James Version (KJV)

    24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    Or

    John 4:24
    English Standard Version (ESV)

    24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

    A parallel passage is:

    1 John 4:8
    King James Version (KJV)

    8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

    Or

    1 John 4:8
    English Standard Version (ESV)

    8  Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

    Here is one more Scripture to add context to these words.

    1 John 4:16
    English Standard Version (ESV)

    16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

    So to us God is the Spirit of Love and his children worship him in the Spirit of Love.  Jesus is the Pioneer of those that worship him in the Spirit of Love; and the means by which Yahweh’s other children worship him in the Spirit of Love.

    #299209
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 23 2012,20:45)
    Mike;

    Offhand I will state Barnes appears not to have considered certain Scriptures; among them are:

    Matthew 11:11
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.


    Kerwin,

    You have made our point for us. In the case of John the Baptist, Jesus was making a CONTRAST BETWEEN those “born of women”, and those of “the kingdom of heaven”. In this case, it would make perfect sense to mention that John was born of a woman, as it was human nature Jesus was contrasting against those of non-human nature.

    Where is that contrast in Gal 4:4? What reason would Paul have to mention that Jesus was “born of a woman” if there was no other option?

    (Please answer that for me)

    #299210
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ May 24 2012,05:07)
    mike,

    i already told you my answer but you are not reading it
    gill's exposition of the entire bible
    but my Father only; to the exclusion of all creatures, angels and men; but not to the exclusion of Christ as God,


    Matthew 24:36
    “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

    Mark 13:32
    “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

    Did Gill overlook the words “nor the Son” that Jesus spoke?

    #299211
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ May 25 2012,09:00)
    T;

    Scripture itself declares God is Spirit; and desires his children to worship him in the spirit; for it is written:

    John 4:24
    King James Version (KJV)

    24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    Or

    John 4:24
    English Standard Version (ESV)

    24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

    A parallel passage is:

    1 John 4:8
    King James Version (KJV)

    8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

    Or

    1 John 4:8
    English Standard Version (ESV)

    8  Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

    Here is one more Scripture to add context to these words.

    1 John 4:16
    English Standard Version (ESV)

    16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

    So to us God is the Spirit of Love and his children worship him in the Spirit of Love.  Jesus is the Pioneer of those that worship him in the Spirit of Love; and the means by which Yahweh’s other children worship him in the Spirit of Love.


    K

    what is it you want to say with your understanding in scriptures ???

    that scriptures are confusing ???

    #299212
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 24 2012,07:44)
    John 1:6
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

    There is a man sent from God, whose name is Jesus, the Son of God; does not in any way hint at either Jesus or John preexisting.


    If I were to base my understanding ONLY on a scripture that said John was sent from God and a scripture that said Jesus was sent forth from God, you and I would likely have no argument, Kerwin.

    BUT………………. when I consider the large number of other scriptures involved, it is a no-brainer for me.  There is NO OTHER scripture to even hint at the possibility of John coming down literally from heaven, and so I will understand him being sent “from God” in a certain way.

    On the other hand, and much to the contrary, there are TONS of scriptures that explain how Jesus was existing in heaven before being made into a human being.  In fact, one of those passages involves Jesus himself saying he came DOWN from heaven, and that some of those present would see him ASCEND to where he WAS BEFORE.

    Kerwin, does scripture ever mention someone saying that John the Baptist was sent DOWN from God, and was going back to God?  NO.

    Does scripture mention such a thing about Jesus?  YES, many times in many different ways.

    So it seems that you are not only trying to compare apples to oranges, but you are at the same time trying to imply that “sent from God” is the ONLY phrase upon which we base our pre-existent understanding.  But in reality, it is the context of many other scriptures that cause us to understand John being sent “from God” in a completely different way than Jesus being sent “from God”.

    John 8:42
    Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.

    Are you able to see how the words I came from God give a whole different meaning to the words he sent me?  Many prophets and apostles were said to have been “sent from God”, Kerwin.   But only one said “I came from God” and “I came DOWN from heaven”.

    #299213
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ May 25 2012,04:50)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 25 2012,09:00)
    T;

    Scripture itself declares God is Spirit; and desires his children to worship him in the spirit; for it is written:

    John 4:24
    King James Version (KJV)

    24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    Or

    John 4:24
    English Standard Version (ESV)

    24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

    A parallel passage is:

    1 John 4:8
    King James Version (KJV)

    8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

    Or

    1 John 4:8
    English Standard Version (ESV)

    8  Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

    Here is one more Scripture to add context to these words.

    1 John 4:16
    English Standard Version (ESV)

    16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

    So to us God is the Spirit of Love and his children worship him in the Spirit of Love.  Jesus is the Pioneer of those that worship him in the Spirit of Love; and the means by which Yahweh’s other children worship him in the Spirit of Love.


    K

    what is it you want to say with your understanding in scriptures ???

    that scriptures are confusing ???


    T;

    Scripture supports itself; even as the passages I quoted supported one another.

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