John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 6,921 through 6,940 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #296585
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ May 05 2012,20:50)
    T;

    You do find my words in Scripture but you do not believe what they say; for it is written:

    Romans 8:4
    King James Version (KJV)

    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    Now since the Word of God is fulfilled in those that walk after the Spirit; how much more is it fulfilled in the one by whom the Spirit both comes by and enables them to walk by.


    K

    You are not on the questions that I have ask to answer ,you drifting away from the truth of scriptures

    #296610
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    John 1
    14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”

    The subject of verses 14 and 15 is “The Word”.  Knowing this, we can say:

    1.  The Word became flesh.

    2.  The Word made his dwelling among us.

    3.  The Word had the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    4.  The Word is the one about whom John testified, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”

    These are the grammatical facts of John 1:14-15.  Who here will now TWIST these facts by adding to or changing the words of the scripture to FORCE this passage to teach what they WANT it to teach?

    Kerwin?  Ed?  Nick?  Frank?  Gene?  Marty?  Which of you will be the first to butcher the scriptures for your self-serving doctrines?

    Ready, set, GO!

    #296622
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 05 2012,12:43)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 04 2012,19:17)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 05 2012,06:26)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 04 2012,18:15)
    Jesus inherited the name that is above every other name and that name is the Word of God.


    The name Jesus inherited, no one knows but he himself.  Yet all of us know that he is named “the Word of God”, right?

    Apparently then, “Word of God” is not the new name he inherited after being exalted.


    Mike;

    The Jews of the First Century believed that the Word of God was above every other name; for God does all things by his words; and all things in heaven and on earth are under the authority of his words.

    Don't you believe the same thing?


    Even above the Divine Name itself?  Show me.


    Many believe that the name Yahshua (Yeshua, Jesus) is the name above every other name. Many point out the following passages of Scripture to prove that the name Yahshua (Yeshua, Jesus) is above every other name.

    Philippians 2:9-11 – Wherefore Yahweh also has highly exalted him (Yahshua [Yeshua, Jesus]), and given him a name which is above every name:

    That at the name of Yahshua every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;

    And [that] every tongue should confess that Yahshua Messiah [is] Master, to the esteem of Yahweh the Father.

    Ephesians 1:17-23 – That the Almighty One of our Master Yahshua Messiah, the Father of esteem, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him:

    The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, and what the riches of the esteem of His inheritance in the saints,

    And what [is] the exceeding greatness of His power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of His mighty power,

    Which He did work in Messiah, when He raised him from the dead, and set [him] at His own right hand in the heavenly [places],

    Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

    And has put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the assembly,

    Which is his body, the fulness of Him that fills all in all.

    I would like you to note that Father Yahweh has a Name Himself and He did give His son Yahshua his name. So, that with this understanding in agreement with the entire context of Scripture you can see that our Heavenly Father and Creator's Name is above all other names, even above the name of His son since He is the one Who gave him his name. Note also that the name Yahshua means 'Yahweh Is Redeemer'.

    When we use this name Yahshua we are actually giving esteem to Father Yahweh by giving reverence to His Name as opposed to giving reverse to the name of His son Yahshua. Not that the name Yahshua should not also be reverenced, but to give our Heavenly Father and Creator's Name the greater etseem as our Supreme Redeemer as also did His son (cf. Philippians 2:11). It was his Father Yahweh who raised him from the dead!

    “… Yahweh raised him from the dead: …”

    Romans 10:10 – “For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto redemption.”

    ********************

    Yahchanan Chapter Twelve

    Then Yahshua six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead. There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him. Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, [that was] very costly, and anointed the feet of Yahshua, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment. Then said one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Kepha's [son], which should betray him, “Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?” This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and saw what was put therein. Then said Yahshua, Let her alone: against the day of my burying has she done this. For the poor are always with you; but me, I will not always be here. Many individuals among those who praise Yahweh with outstreched hands therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Yahshuas' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.

    But the chief priests consulted with each other on how thaty might also put Lazarus to death; Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed what Yahshua taught. The next day many people that had came to Yerusalem to observe the feast, heard that Yahshua was also coming to Yerusalem to observe the feast.

    These people took branches of palm trees, and went ahead to meet him, and they cried out, “Hosanna: Blessed [is] the King of Israel that comes in the Name Yahweh. And Yahshua, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, Fear not, daughter of Zion: behold, your King comes, sitting on an ass's colt. His disciples didn't understand what he was saying at first: but when Yahshua was given esteem, they remembered that these things were written of him, and [that] they had done these things to him. The people therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out of his grave, and raised him from the dead, bare record. For this cause the people also met him, for they heard that he had done this miracle.

    The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, “See how he divises anything from Scripture? Look! It seems the whole world is listening to what he is teaching! And

    There were certain Greeks among the people that came up to worship at the feast: They came to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and asked him, “Sir, Where can we see this man named Yahshua?” Philip told Andrew and they went and told Yashua that these men were looking for him.

    Yahshua answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of Man should be given esteem. For a surety, I say to you,

    'Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abides alone: but if it dies, it brings forth much fruit. He that loves his life shall lose it; and he that hates his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

    If any man wants to serve me, then come; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man wants to serve me, my Father shall show you honor.

    Now I am very troubled; and what should I say? 'Father, redeem me from this time of trouble!” But for this whay You sent me at this time.

    Father, give Your Name Esteem. Then there came a voice from heaven …

    “I have both eeteemed My Name, and will give it esteem again.” The people therefore, that stood by, and heard this, said that it thundered: others said, “A heavenly messenger spoke to him. “

    Yahshua answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be
    cast out. I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”

    The people answered him, “We have heard out of the law that Messiah abideth for ever: And what say you? The Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of man?”

    Then Yahshua said, “Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knows not where he goes. While you have light, believe in the light, that you may be the children of light. “

    These things spoke Yahshua, and departed, and did hide himself from them. But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Isayah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke, “Father Yahweh, who has believed our report? and to who has the arm of Yahweh been revealed?”

    They could not believe, because Isayah also said, “He has blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, so that He might heal them.”

    These things said Isayah, when he saw him being esteemed, and spoke of Him. Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess [him], lest they should be put out of the synagogue: For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of Yahweh.

    Yahshua cried and said, “He that believes me, believes not me, but on Him that sent me. And he that see me sees Him that sent me. I came as a light to the world, that whosoever believes me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to reddeem the world. He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that will judge him! The word that I have spoken, these are the words that will judge him in the end. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatever the Father says to me, that is what I speak.”

    The following passages of Scripture show that Father Yahweh is above His son Yahshua. So if Father Yahweh is above His son Yahshua, certainly His Name is above the name that He gave to His son.

    Yahchanan [John] 14:28 – You have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If you loved me, you would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

    Mat 10:24 The student is not above [his] teacher, nor the servant above his master.

    Yahshua, A Humble Sevant of Father Yahweh

    Philippians 2:7 – “… taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.”

    Mattithyah [Matthew] 21:42 – Yahshua said unto them, Did you never read in the Scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Yahweh's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

    1 Corinthians 11:3 – But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Messiah; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Messiah [is] Yahweh.

    Acts 4:10-12 – Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Yahshua the Messiah of Nazareth, whom you executed, whom Yahweh raised from the dead, [even] by him dose this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there redemption in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be redeemed.

    Since the name “Yahshua” means “Yahweh Is Redeemer”, saying “Yahshua” still calls upon (evokes) the name of Yahweh.

    For more scholarly information on the Name Yahweh, please click on the following hyperlinked text.

    http://yahweh.yolasite.com
    SOURCE

    #296623
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    The WORD was before John.
    The WORD proceeded forth AND came from God

    #296624
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    Why do you say that anyone who does not agree with you is butchering the scriptures?

    #296635
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 06 2012,01:34)
    John 1
    14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”

    The subject of verses 14 and 15 is “The Word”.  Knowing this, we can say:

    1.  The Word became flesh.

    2.  The Word made his dwelling among us.

    3.  The Word had the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    4.  The Word is the one about whom John testified, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”

    These are the grammatical facts of John 1:14-15.  Who here will now TWIST these facts by adding to or changing the words of the scripture to FORCE this passage to teach what they WANT it to teach?

    Kerwin?  Ed?  Nick?  Frank?  Gene?  Marty?  Which of you will be the first to butcher the scriptures for your self-serving doctrines?

    Ready, set, GO!


    Mike,

    Your not the first one to butcher Scripture for your self-serving doctrine that Yahshua pre-existed his birth as his and our Father Yahweh's word and “a god” that was with Him in the beginning! :D

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    #296636
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 06 2012,01:34)
    John 1
    14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”

    The subject of verses 14 and 15 is “The Word”.  Knowing this, we can say:

    1.  The Word became flesh.

    2.  The Word made his dwelling among us.

    3.  The Word had the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    4.  The Word is the one about whom John testified, saying, “This was he of whom I said,
        ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”

    These are the grammatical facts of John 1:14-15.  Who here will now TWIST these facts by adding to or changing the words of the scripture to FORCE this passage to teach what they WANT it to teach?

    Kerwin?  Ed?  Nick?  Frank?  Gene?  Marty?  Which of you will be the first to butcher the scriptures for your self-serving doctrines?

    Ready, set, GO!


    Hi Mike,

    1.  The Word(HolySpirit in Jesus) became flesh.

    2.  The Word(HolySpirit in Jesus) made his dwelling among us.

    3.  The Word(HolySpirit in Jesus) had the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    4. The Word(HolySpirit in Jesus) is the one about whom John testified, saying,
        This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #296637
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ May 06 2012,13:47)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 06 2012,01:34)
    John 1
    14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”

    The subject of verses 14 and 15 is “The Word”.  Knowing this, we can say:

    1.  The Word became flesh.

    2.  The Word made his dwelling among us.

    3.  The Word had the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    4.  The Word is the one about whom John testified, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”

    These are the grammatical facts of John 1:14-15.  Who here will now TWIST these facts by adding to or changing the words of the scripture to FORCE this passage to teach what they WANT it to teach?

    Kerwin?  Ed?  Nick?  Frank?  Gene?  Marty?  Which of you will be the first to butcher the scriptures for your self-serving doctrines?

    Ready, set, GO!


    Mike,

    Your not the first one to butcher Scripture for your self-serving doctrine that Yahshua pre-existed his birth as his and our Father Yahweh's word and “a god” that was with Him in the beginning! :D

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    F

    that is not the answer or an answer ,try again

    #296638
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ May 06 2012,13:57)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 06 2012,01:34)
    John 1
    14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”

    The subject of verses 14 and 15 is “The Word”.  Knowing this, we can say:

    1.  The Word became flesh.

    2.  The Word made his dwelling among us.

    3.  The Word had the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    4.  The Word is the one about whom John testified, saying, “This was he of whom I said,
        ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”

    These are the grammatical facts of John 1:14-15.  Who here will now TWIST these facts by adding to or changing the words of the scripture to FORCE this passage to teach what they WANT it to teach?

    Kerwin?  Ed?  Nick?  Frank?  Gene?  Marty?  Which of you will be the first to butcher the scriptures for your self-serving doctrines?

    Ready, set, GO!


    Hi Mike,

    1.  The Word(HolySpirit in Jesus) became flesh.

    2.  The Word(HolySpirit in Jesus) made his dwelling among us.

    3.  The Word(HolySpirit in Jesus) had the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    4. The Word(HolySpirit in Jesus) is the one about whom John testified, saying,
        This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj

    that is not the answer those are opinions that change those scriptures,

    so try again ,and this time do not interprete what as not to be ,ok

    #296639
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 06 2012,13:00)
    Hi MB,
    Why do you say that anyone who does not agree with you is butchering the scriptures?


    N

    it is more like cosmetic surgery ;to make it like we see it fit .

    but that is not the truth right ????

    #296642
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ May 06 2012,07:05)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 06 2012,13:00)
    Hi MB,
    Why do you say that anyone who does not agree with you is butchering the scriptures?


    N

    it is more like cosmetic surgery ;to make it like we see it fit .

    but that is not the truth right ????


    Hi Pierre,

    It is nice to hear you admit the truth.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #296645
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ May 06 2012,06:57)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 06 2012,01:34)
    John 1
    14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”

    The subject of verses 14 and 15 is “The Word”.  Knowing this, we can say:

    1.  The Word became flesh.

    2.  The Word made his dwelling among us.

    3.  The Word had the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    4.  The Word is the one about whom John testified, saying, “This was he of whom I said,
        ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”

    These are the grammatical facts of John 1:14-15.  Who here will now TWIST these facts by adding to or changing the words of the scripture to FORCE this passage to teach what they WANT it to teach?

    Kerwin?  Ed?  Nick?  Frank?  Gene?  Marty?  Which of you will be the first to butcher the scriptures for your self-serving doctrines?

    Ready, set, GO!


    Hi Mike,

    1.  The Word(HolySpirit in Jesus) became flesh.

    2.  The Word(HolySpirit in Jesus) made his dwelling among us.

    3.  The Word(HolySpirit in Jesus) had the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    4. The Word(HolySpirit in Jesus) is the one about whom John testified, saying,
        This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Yes ED.

    #296664
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ May 06 2012,14:29)

    Quote (terraricca @ May 06 2012,07:05)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 06 2012,13:00)
    Hi MB,
    Why do you say that anyone who does not agree with you is butchering the scriptures?


    N

    it is more like cosmetic surgery ;to make it like we see it fit .

    but that is not the truth right ????


    Hi Pierre,

    It is nice to hear you admit the truth.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj and N

    this also is not the answer

    #296711
    Spock
    Participant

    Arius's error when followed to it's conclusion has God the Father birthing a new God, a 30 something carpenter who now has all power and authority in heaven and on earth at his disposal as he rules in the interim. Like a temp-God.

    The mental or faith blocks that the Arians suffer from are these:

    * they can conceive of Gabriel, Satan, Michael and all sorts of angelic beings existing in heaven but not the creator Son. Were these all also “the Word” in the beginning?

    * they “choose” to emphasize and believe in the “ascension” into heaven, but deny the coming down from heaven.

    * they place heavier weight on those occasions where secondary narratives have men saying that “God raised him up” from the dead and ignore where Jesus himself stated that he would raise himself, up when both are true.

    Jesus Christ is, to all intents and purposes, God to us. He is the way, he has always been the way. “The way” is not to be confused with the Pagan interpretations of Jesus as a human sacrifice.

    Colter

    #296714
    jammin
    Participant

    christ is the word in john 1.1

    verse 14-18 confirms that

    #296715
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 05 2012,14:40)

    Quote (Ed J @ May 06 2012,06:57)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 06 2012,01:34)
    John 1
    14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”

    The subject of verses 14 and 15 is “The Word”.  Knowing this, we can say:

    1.  The Word became flesh.

    2.  The Word made his dwelling among us.

    3.  The Word had the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    4.  The Word is the one about whom John testified, saying, “This was he of whom I said,
        ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”

    These are the grammatical facts of John 1:14-15.  Who here will now TWIST these facts by adding to or changing the words of the scripture to FORCE this passage to teach what they WANT it to teach?

    Kerwin?  Ed?  Nick?  Frank?  Gene?  Marty?  Which of you will be the first to butcher the scriptures for your self-serving doctrines?

    Ready, set, GO!


    Hi Mike,

    1.  The Word(HolySpirit in Jesus) became flesh.

    2.  The Word(HolySpirit in Jesus) made his dwelling among us.

    3.  The Word(HolySpirit in Jesus) had the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    4. The Word(HolySpirit in Jesus) is the one about whom John testified, saying,
        This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

    God bless
    Ed J


    Yes ED.


    Ed,

    I am glad to learn that you no longer feel the need to invent a new subject into verses 14 and 15 like you used to do.  (I remember how you used to claim that part of the passage was about the Holy Spirit, and the other part was about Jesus.)

    So now that you have come to the correct understanding that the whole passage is about the same person/thing/subject, and Nick also agrees, let the unraveling begin:

    John 1
    1 In the beginning was the Word (Holy Spirit in Jesus), and the Word (Holy Spirit in Jesus) was with God………….

    Since you say the Word who became flesh was the Holy Spirit in Jesus, then it stands to reason that the Word had to have been the Holy Spirit in Jesus before the Holy Spirit in Jesus BECAME flesh, right?  Or will you now resort to adding the word “IN” into the verse to fulfill your doctrine?

    16 From the fullness of his grace (the grace of the Holy Spirit in Jesus) we have all received one blessing after another. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ (the Holy Spirit in Jesus).

    Are these also true to your understanding, Ed?  Nick?

    (Btw, I appreciate Ed actually ADDRESSING my post, while Nick continues to post blather and Frank continues to “own me” by running away from the point altogether.  Kudos to you, Ed.)

    #296721
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ May 04 2012,19:14)

    Quote (jammin @ May 04 2012,13:59)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 04 2012,15:22)
    Hi Jammin,
    Tell us of the Word that WAS with God and WAS God


    read the context
    john 1.1-4

    1 εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος

    2 ουτος ην εν αρχη προς τον θεον

    3 παντα δι αυτου εγενετο και χωρις αυτου εγενετο ουδε εν ο γεγονεν

    4 εν αυτω ζωη ην και η ζωη ην το φως των ανθρωπων

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    2 The same was in the beginning with God.

    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

    14 και ο λογος σαρξ εγενετο και εσκηνωσεν εν ημιν και εθεασαμεθα την δοξαν αυτου δοξαν ως μονογενους παρα πατρος πληρης χαριτος και αληθειας

    15 ιωαννης μαρτυρει περι αυτου και κεκραγεν λεγων ουτος ην ον ειπον ο οπισω μου ερχομενος εμπροσθεν μου γεγονεν οτι πρωτος μου ην

    16 και εκ του πληρωματος αυτου ημεις παντες ελαβομεν και χαριν αντι χαριτος

    17 οτι ο νομος δια μωσεως εδοθη η χαρις και η αληθεια δια ιησου χριστου εγενετο

    18 θεον ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε ο μονογενης υιος ο ων εις τον κολπον του πατρος εκεινος εξηγησατο

    in verse 3 and 4 it says “HIM”
    the word HIM (auto in greek) clearly explains that this “WORD” is not just a word that comes out from your mouth. it is a person!

    a person means an individual. verse 14 and 18 identified this WORD in john 1.1, HE is the SON OF GOD! begotten son! monogenes huios in greek!

    read well your bible and study hard nick.

    for those who believe that the WORD is the HS, you can not read your opinion and i am 100% sure for that!
    john did not say that the WORD is the HS but the son of GOD! monogenes huios!


    Jammin;

    Why does Jesus call Wisdom her?

    Luke 7:35
    King James Version (KJV)

    35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.

    Since Wisdom has children is not the Word of God his Son?


    luke 7.35 is not the topic.

    stick to the topic.

    #296741
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    You say
    “Since you say the Word who became flesh was the Holy Spirit in Jesus, then it stands to reason that the Word had to have been the Holy Spirit in Jesus before the Holy Spirit in Jesus BECAME flesh, right?”

    Wrong.
    REASON does not rule.
    You do struggle with the ways of God
    Jesus was not said to have had the Holy Spirit before the jordan.

    #296747
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Then “the Holy Spirit in Jesus” cannot possibly be what/who BECAME flesh, right?

    For “the Holy Spirit in Jesus” to BECOME flesh, “the Holy Spirit in Jesus” must have been existing as something OTHER THAN flesh before it/he BECAME flesh.

    So, was “the Holy Spirit in Jesus existing as something else before it/he became flesh?

    #296748
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ May 06 2012,07:01)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ May 06 2012,13:47)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 06 2012,01:34)
    John 1
    14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”

    The subject of verses 14 and 15 is “The Word”.  Knowing this, we can say:

    1.  The Word became flesh.

    2.  The Word made his dwelling among us.

    3.  The Word had the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    4.  The Word is the one about whom John testified, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”

    These are the grammatical facts of John 1:14-15.  Who here will now TWIST these facts by adding to or changing the words of the scripture to FORCE this passage to teach what they WANT it to teach?

    Kerwin?  Ed?  Nick?  Frank?  Gene?  Marty?  Which of you will be the first to butcher the scriptures for your self-serving doctrines?

    Ready, set, GO!


    Mike,

    Your not the first one to butcher Scripture for your self-serving doctrine that Yahshua pre-existed his birth as his and our Father Yahweh's word and “a god” that was with Him in the beginning! :D

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?


    F

    that is not the answer or an answer ,try again


    Now what was the question? ??? :D

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