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John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • April 30, 2012 at 12:04 am#295644
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    No Nick,

    Many scriptures bear witness to the facts. It's just that I align my beliefs with those facts, to which the scriptures bear witness.

    Again, comments like that are senseless and petty. Dig deeper.

    April 30, 2012 at 12:11 am#295647
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2012,11:00)
    Apparently not unless I'm agreeing with HIM.  :)

    Ed, I know that we don't truly agree anyway.  In words, yes, but in reality, no.

    (1)Unless of course you believe that Jesus was the first being God ever created – the one through whom God then created all other things.

    (2)This is what I believe, and many scriptures bear witness.

    (3)I believe that the living, individual entity of Jesus/God's Son dwelled with God in the form of God before emptying himself to be sent down from heaven by God on a mission of salvation.

    (4)I think your belief aligns better with Nick's.  (5)Anyway, it was fun to PRETEND to agree with each other for a brief moment, eh?  :)

    peace


    Hi Mike,

    1) You're right, I don't agree with that, (2)and Scripture doesn't say that either.

    3) Dwelled in the form of God means something else to you.
        To you, it means instead dwelled in the form of an Angel.

    4) Yes, I would agree with that as well.
    5) Conversing in a positive way is always best!

    Your friend
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    April 30, 2012 at 12:16 am#295649
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Uh oh, Nick. Ed's beliefs are more aligned with YOURS! That must mean YOU GUYS are the ones on the wide road! :)

    See what I mean, Nick? Those kinds of comments are absolutely senseless and useless.

    April 30, 2012 at 12:54 am#295651
    charity
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ April 30 2012,10:01)
    Charity,

    'Even a child is known by whether there is conduct is loving”.  Your conduct is not; even though you may think it is.  If it was then you would not level false accusations or judge by your measures.

    God judged the hearts of Cain and Abel when they sacrificed and Cain's motivations were unloving while Abel's demonstrated love.

    So do you believe it is right to reward the hater as well as the lover?


    excuse me, Cain A TILLER OF THE GROUND! remember the piunishment! bought an offering of the fruit of the ground, an Abel A SHEPERD OF THE SHEEP, preacher, bought the best blood sacrifice….an Cain was humiliated for bringing his offering to the table…..maybe Cain's offering was more sensible…? an Jesus would have lived? tormenting brothers about about how worthy they are is not loving…This will go on till people an the stupidity of creating Gods Nature an specking self owned thoughts as his voice stops.

    King James Version (KJV)
    Genesis –

    Gen 4:1¶And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

    Gen 4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

    Gen 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

    Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

    Gen 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
    (he was serious in pleasing God) the heart was pure!

    An to also note Law broken,  that older child”s god given credibility to rule was given over to serve  the younger…Abel commenced  blood sacrificing an offering.. against cain first born… fruits of the ground….Jesus may have lived to a grey head old man if Cain's barley was prefered an favored…..this to could have been as pleasing to the God that latter called of the sacrifice an offering anyway…

    April 30, 2012 at 2:32 am#295656
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    Have you yet accepted that Jesus was not just a SPOKESPERSON FOR GOD
    but that God's Spirit SPOKE THROUGH HIM?

    April 30, 2012 at 2:35 am#295657
    charity
    Participant

    your got to be Joking! a man living till he be hundred an sixty years old before he gets a female pregnant?
    Despite no logic, an the trusting in all these words… what age do you the female became fertile?

    Only “one” child is worthy of being noted as the worlds are framed by WORDS. Twas Rather an un fair world!

    Gen 5:1¶This [is] the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

    Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

    Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

    Gen 5:4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:

    Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

    Gen 5:6¶And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:

    Gen 5:7 And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:

    Gen 5:8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.

    Gen 5:9¶And Enos lived ninety years, and begat Cainan:

    Gen 5:10 And Enos lived after he begat Cainan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters:

    Gen 5:11 And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.

    Gen 5:12¶And Cainan lived seventy years, and begat Mahalaleel:

    Gen 5:13 And Cainan lived after he begat Mahalaleel eight hundred and forty years, and begat sons and daughters:

    Gen 5:14 And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died.

    Gen 5:15¶And Mahalaleel lived sixty and five years, and begat Jared:

    Gen 5:16 And Mahalaleel lived after he begat Jared eight hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters:

    Gen 5:17 And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died.

    Gen 5:18¶And Jared lived an hundred sixty and two years, and he begat Enoch:

    Gen 5:19 And Jared lived after he begat Enoch eight hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:

    Gen 5:20 And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.

    Gen 5:21¶And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:

    Gen 5:22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:

    Gen 5:23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:

    Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he [was] not; for God took him.

    Gen 5:25¶And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech:

    Gen 5:26 And Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters:

    Gen 5:27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.

    Gen 5:28¶And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:

    Gen 5:29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This [same] shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.

    Gen 5:30 And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and five years, and begat sons and daughters:

    Gen 5:31 And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.

    Gen 5:32¶And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
    Return to Top

    King James Version).”

    Hbr 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

    Hbr 11:4¶By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

    April 30, 2012 at 2:47 am#295660
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    Once you look past the flesh and know the treasure that spoke from him within things may get clearer

    April 30, 2012 at 2:53 am#295661
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 29 2012,10:37)
    Hi 94,
    You say
    “Of course, he came down from heaven.  He was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin mary, and was born a living soul and raised by parents under the Law of Moses, and his spirit came from heaven in that it was formed within him as he obeyed the Word of God without sin event unto death on the cross.”

    Any scriptures support the view of spirits FORMING by obedience?


    Hi Nick:

    My statement is based on the following scriptures:

    Quote
    1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

    Quote
    John 6:63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

    Quote
    Rom 1:1 ¶ Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

    Rom 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

    Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

    Rom 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

    Quote
    Jer 31:31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

    Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

    Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people

    Quote
    c 12:1 ¶ The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

    And there are other scriptures which would support the conclusion that God forms our spirit through his Word. How is the world to know that we are His children?

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    April 30, 2012 at 3:05 am#295666
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi 94,
    The Spirit of God transforms the hearts and minds of those reborn from above IF they submit to the process.

    Most are stillborn preferring to rely on logic and to wrestle with truth.

    gal 4.19-20

    April 30, 2012 at 3:22 am#295669
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 30 2012,14:05)
    Hi 94,
    The Spirit of God transforms the hearts and minds of those reborn from above IF they submit to the process.

    Most are stillborn preferring to rely on logic and to wrestle with truth.

    gal 4.19-20


    I am not the judge. I can only obey God for myself.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    April 30, 2012 at 3:27 am#295671
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi 94,
    IF you have been reborn from above then you must feed on the Word.
    The Spirit can remind you of the words of Jesus Christ and align them for you.

    April 30, 2012 at 3:46 am#295672
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi 94,
    1 jn 2.27
    But first seek the kingdom and everything else will be added to you.

    April 30, 2012 at 4:31 am#295674
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (charity @ April 30 2012,08:22)

    Quote (jammin @ April 29 2012,23:25)
    i believe what the bible said charity and not opinions from men


    The Gospel of John is an opinion. It'S never been Illegal to consume wandering mentality, build armies

    The Word “Word”, translated from the english language, which was birthed around 1066.

    Only the western cultures rattle on with the confusion…

    Because of Jeruserlem being the Inheritance, An Solomon's foriegn wives they had to start him from the beginning, or the family tree will be trimed back or cut down.

    The Jewish are NOT self concentered….THE WORLD NEEDS TO BE ASHAMED!! they are an example of a family that pass's down the Jewels, whole things cant be divided, they went down threw the first born, but hence.. that became THE problem of favoring…an law pushed its way in…on behalf of the un favored but hence legal choice….

    If a man wants to leave his youngest son all he owns…is it his right?
    what dose the “word” Jesus say about Cain&Abel?

    What was wrong with Cain that everything he offered was not good enough in the sight of his parents? God? that they should torment him as less favored, till he arrive At an emotional… chemical reaction an destroy”s his little goddie two shoe's brother via stored up anxiety an living the rejection…?


    i believe what the bible says charity.

    the word in john 1.14-18 is theson of GOD. not the father or the HS
    case closed

    April 30, 2012 at 4:43 am#295677
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ April 29 2012,13:34)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 29 2012,07:49)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 29 2012,10:57)
    Frank,

    The Greek language is not like the English language as Greek nouns and pronouns have a gender.  The gender of logos and associated pronouns is male.  Some translators chose to keep the gender when translating while others do not.  I believe it is more correct to keep it since Scripture is known to personalize abstract concepts such as Wisdom, the Word, and the Light.  

    Knowing somewhat of the mindset from reports of the handling of the same subject by Philo of Alexander and the Peshita;  the words “the Word was with God” were possibly written to reveal the Word is not an actual person; including God.  Those that lack knowledge and those that are corrupt misinterpret it.  You and others see it for what is.

    John 1:6-13 is not even teaching of the Word but it is teaching of the Light that is in the Word.   Is Jesus in Jesus?; Of course not.  John is not the Light because the Life in the Word is the Light that is coming into the World.  The Light comes into the world when the Word of God becomes Jesus.  It does not transform into Jesus and so stop being the Word; as some seem to believe.    Instead the Word, and the Light therein, which were non-person personification have now been made into person personification in Jesus of Nazareth.

    Even using the Trinitarian choice to keep the Greek pronoun gender; it  is clear to those with eyes to see and ears to hear that John 1:1-16 is only indirectly speaking of Jesus but is directly speaking of the Word that comes out of the mouth of God; or the Light that is in that Word.


    Compare The Following Translation:

    1. “All things were made by it” (Tyndale, 1534)
    2. “The worde … All things were made by the same” (Coverdale, 1535)
    3. “All things were made by it and without it nothing was made” (Matthews’ Bible, 1537)
    4. “All things were made by it and without it was made nothing that was made” (The Great Bible, 1539)
    5. “All things were made by it” (Taverner NT, 1540)
    6. “All things were made by it”(Whittingham, 1557)
    7. “All things were made by it” (The Geneva Bible, 1560)
    8. “All things were made by it” (Bishops’ Bible, 1568)
    9. “All things were made by it” (Tomson NT, 1607)
    10. “Nor can anything be produced that has been made without it [Reason]” (John LeClerc, 1701)
    11. “The word … through the same all things were made” (Mortimer, 1761)
    12. “In the beginning was Wisdom … All things were made by it” (Wakefield NT, 1791)
    13. “The Word … All things were made by it” (Alexander Campbell, founder of the Church of Christ, 1826)
    14. “The Word … All things were formed by it” (Dickinson, A New and Corrected Version of the NT, 1833)
    15. “All things were made by it” (Barnard, 1847)
    16. “Through it [the logos] everything was done” (Wilson, Emphatic Diaglott, 1864)
    17. “All things through it arose into being” (Folsom, 1869)
    18. “All things were made through it” (Sharpe, Revision of the Authorized English Version, 1898)
    19. “All things were made by the Love thought” (Goddard, 1916)
    20. “All things came into being in this God-conception and apart from it came not anything into being that came into being” (Overbury, 1925)
    21. “All came into being through it” (Knoch, 1926)
    22. “The word … the living expression of the Father’s thought” (Blount, Half Hours with John’sGospel, 1930)
    23. “The word was god” (C.C. Torrey, The Four Gospels, 1933)
    24. “Through the divine reason all things came into being” (Wade, The Documents of the NT Translated, 1934)
    25. “Without it nothing created sprang into existence” (Johannes Greber, 1937)
    26. “It was in the beginning with God, by its activity all things came into being” (Martin Dibelius, The Message of Jesus Christ, translated by F.C. Grant, 1939)
    27. “Through its agency all things came into being and apart from it has not one thing come to be” (William Temple, Archbishop of Canterbury, Readings from St. John’s Gospel, 1939)
    28. “The energizing mind was in existence from the very beginning” (Crofts, The Four Gospels, 1949)
    29. “First there was the Thought and the Thought was in God … He, him” (Hoare, Translation from the Greek, 1949)
    30. “In the beginning God expressed Himself … That personal expression, that word … He” (J.B. Philips, NT in Modern English, 1958)
    31. “All was done through it” (Tomanek, 1958)
    32. “The Word was the life principle [in creation]” (William Barclay, NT, 1969)
    33. “This same idea was at home with God when life began … He” (Jordan, Cottonpatch Version, 1970)
    34. “All things became what they are through the Word” (Dale, NT, 1973)
    35. “Within the Word was life” (Edington, 1976)
    36. “It was his last werd. Ony it come first” (Gospels in Scouse, 1977)
    37. “By it everything had being, and without it nothing had being” (Schonfield, The Original NT, 1985)
    38. “All things were made through the Word” (Inclusive Language Lectionary, 1986)
    39. “In the beginning was the Plan of Yahweh. All things were done according to it” (Hawkins, Book of Yahweh, 1987)
    40. “All things happened through it” (Gaus, Unvarnished NT, 1991)
    41. “In the beginning was the divine word and wisdom … everything came to be by means of it” (Robert Miller, The Complete Gospels, Annotated Scholars’ Version, 1992


    Frank,

    Translating the Greek genders to neuters is also acceptable as it does not meaningfully change the message and takes into account the lack of gendered nouns and pronouns in the English language.  Either way the message is understandable to those who have ears to hear and eyes to see.


    Kerwin,

    My disagreement with Nick's post is that he believes that the word phrase “only begotten” in Yahchanan [John] 1:14 in the translation that he presented was in reference to Father Yahweh's word being “the only begotten”. He came to this conclusion simply because the word “son” was not mentioned in that one specific verse as if one is to use one single verse out of context with Scripture as a whole and build their own religious belief based on that one verse of Scripture. This is exactly how many false religious beliefs start and in turn they conclude that their particular belief is in fact based on what Scripture says from that one single verse taken out of context. In fact, I believe that this is exactly how Satan [the tempter, devil] himself works in taking Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word out of context. This can be clearly seen in his use of Father Yahweh inspired prophetic word out of context with what Yahweh has said as a whole when attempting to tempt Yahshua after his fasting in the wilderness. Note this was done right after Father Yahweh had proclaimed him to be His son in whom he was very well pleased with and loved:

    Then Yahshua was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted there by the devil. For forty days and forty nights he fasted and became very hungry. During that time the devil came and said to him, “If you are the son of Yahweh, tell these stones to become loaves of bread.”

    Satan knew that Ya
    hshua was the son of Yahweh and that he was given all power [authority] in heaven and in the earth and that it was possible for him to do just that with the power that he was given.

    But Yahshua told him, “No! The Scriptures say, 'People do not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of Yahweh.'” Then the devil took him to the set apart city, Yerusalem, to the highest point of the Temple, and said, “If you are the son of Yahweh, jump off! For the Scriptures say, 'He will order His malakim to protect you. And they will hold you up with their hands so you won't even hurt your foot on a stone.'”

    Here it is quite clear how Satan used Scripture out of context as a whole to tempt and attempt to deceive Yahshua.

    Yahshua responded, “The Scriptures also say, 'You must not test Yahweh your Mighty One.'”

    Here Yahshua used Scripture as a whole and was not concentrating on one particular thing that his and our Father Yahweh had said, but instead he was living BY EVERY WORD that his and our Father Yahweh had said. No, Yahshua is not Father Yahweh's word, but the spokesmen of His word and he in turned lived by His word. He was certainly not living by himself as LITERALLY being his and our Father Yahweh's “Word” personified.

    Next the devil took him to the peak of a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their esteem. “I will give it all to you,” he said, “if you will kneel down and worship me.” “Get out of here, Satan,” Yahshua told him. “For the Scriptures say, 'You must worship Yahweh your Mighty One and serve only Him.'” Then the devil went away, and malakim came and took care of Yahshua.

    Here a lesson can be learned by taking Yahshua's example to fight of the wiles of the devil and resisting Him in his twisting Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word and in turn causing Satan to flee.

    Put on the whole armor of Yahweh, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places. Therefore, put on every piece of Yahweh's armor so you will be able to resist the enemy in the time of evil. Then after the battle you will still be standing firm. Stand your ground, putting on the belt of truth and the body armor of Yahweh's righteousness. For shoes, put on the peace that comes from the glad tidings so that you will be fully prepared. In addition to all of these, hold up the shield of belief to stop the fiery arrows of the devil. Put on redemption as your helmet, and take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of Yahweh. Commune in the Spirit [WHICH IS THE WORD OF YAHWEH] at all times and on every occasion. Stay alert and be persistent in your communing for all believers everywhere.

    “So humble yourselves before Yahweh. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

    I do not find the personification of Father Yahweh's word acceptable in Yahchanan chapter one. It has caused must confusion and contradiction among the brethren and Scripture clearly teaches that Father Yahweh is not the author of confusion.

    What does “logos” mean? According to the Greek Lexicon to the New Testament “logos” means…
    Strong's #3056 logos λογος log'-os
    1. of speech
    a. a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
    b. what someone has said
    1. a word
    2. the sayings of God
    3. decree, mandate or order
    4. of the moral precepts given by God
    5. Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
    6. what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim
    c. discourse
    1. the act of speaking, speech
    2. the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
    3. a kind or style of speaking
    4. a continuous speaking discourse – instruction
    d. doctrine, teaching
    e. anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
    f. matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law
    g. the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed
    2. its use as respect to the MIND alone
    a. reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating
    b. account, i.e. regard, consideration
    c. account, i.e. reckoning, score
    d. account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment
    e. relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation
    1. reason would
    f. reason, cause, ground

    Logos – from the Liddell-Scott-Jones Greek Lexicon:

    • Logos; logos, ho: (A) the word or that by which the inward thought is expressed (Latin: oratio), and, (B) the inward thought itself (Latin: ratio.)
    • Latin: vox, oratio, that which is said or spoken.
    • Latin: ratio, thought, reason.
    • Ho LOGOS, the Logos or Word, comprising both senses of Thought and Word. (New Testament.)

    Logos is translated a variety of ways in the King James Version a total of 330 times:

    word 225, saying 50, account 8, speech 8, thing 5, not translated 2, miscellaneous 32

    As you can see, the word “logos” in so many words means “the outward expression of thought,” a “saying or speech” hence “word.” It appears over 300 times in the Apostolic Writings and is only capitalized (wrongly) as a person in John 1. The capital is an editorial addition of translators. This word “logos” was used in the Septuagint (LXX – the Greek translation of the Tanakh done by Israelites around 200 BCE) as a translation for the word “dabar” some 1500 times. It never describes a literal person. This is important because, in order to have a proper understanding of the word logos we must first have a proper understanding of the word dabar; the Hebrew word for which logos was based on. Remember Yahchanan was a Hebrew and wrote from a Hebraic perspective, NOT Greek! Let’s look at the meaning of dabar (modern Heb. devar). The Hebrew Lexicon to the Old Testament states the following:

    Strong’s #H1697 dabar rbd daw-baw'
    1. speech, word, speaking, thing
    a. speech
    b. saying, utterance
    c. word, words
    d. business, occupation, acts, matter, case, something, manner (by extension)
    [/B] The Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary, pg. 1682 defines “dabar” as such:

    “Dabar is the primary Hebrew expression for “word.” It has various meanings and can refer to a spoken utterance, a saying, a command, a speech, or a story—linguistic communication in general. 3

    Dabar is translated a variety of ways in the King James Version a total of 1439 times:

    word 807, thing 231, matter 63, acts 51, chronicles 38, saying 25, commandment 20, miscellaneous 204

    Based on the definitions given, the basic Hebraic meaning of “dabar” is “the express communication of thoughts into words.” For example the phrase “the word (dabar) of [Yahweh]” simply means “the expressed thoughts, oracles or commands of [Yahweh].” Scriptural examples:

    Gen 15:1 After these things (dabar) the word (dabar) of [Yahweh] came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

    In this verse dabar is translated things and word.

    Ex 34:28 And he was there with YHWH forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words (dabar) of the covenant, the ten commandments (dabar).

    In this verse dabar is translated as commandments and words. This also shows that [Yahweh]’s words and commandments are synonymous (Ps 103:20, Ps 119:172). [Yahweh]’s dabar (or logos) in Greek is His expressed thoughts, spoken word or command! The verification of this is very simple. Please refer to any good English Dictionary. Under the word 'Decalogue' you will find the meaning; “The Ten Commandments”, (deka = ten; logous = commands). The dictionary al
    so translates the word 'Logos' as “discourse, reason, (rarely) word”.

    Since the “word” is the spoken thoughts or commands of [Yahweh] it could not be a second member of the “godhead.” So what about the phrase ³και θεος ην `ο λογος (kai theos en ho logos)” translated “the word was god” or “god was the word?” Based on the grammar of the Greek, [Yahchanan] is not trying to say the word is “[Yahweh] {'God'}.” [Yahchanan] uses ho theos when speaking about the one true [Yahweh] {'God} but here the definite article “ho (the)” is missing. It’s not present because here “theos” is considered a predicate or adjective of the preceding subject. Theos is used to describe the nature, quality, attribute or property of the subject which is the “word.” In this instance the One true [Almighty]'s spoken command or thoughts is [sublime], powerful or mighty. A more literal translation would read:

    In the beginning was the word (spoken thoughts/command), and the word (spoken thoughts/command) was with [Yahweh], and the word (spoken thoughts/command) was [sublime]/powerful/mighty.

    This translation is based upon the usage of the Greek grammar and structure and the Hebraic understanding. There are translations that do not follow the traditional Trinitarian influence! Some examples are:

    Bible – James Moffatt Translation, The: “The Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine.”

    Complete Bible – An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), The:

    “In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.

    Authentic New Testament, The: “In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. So the Word was divine.”

    Scriptures (ISR), The: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim, and the Word was Elohim.”

    Theos is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word “elohim.” Elohim is a Hebrew word that can be used as a noun, adjective or predicate. For example:

    Genesis 30:8 So Rachel said, “With mighty (Heb. elohim) wrestlings I have wrestled with my sister, and I have indeed prevailed.” And she named him Naphtali.

    1 Samuel 14:15 And there was a trembling in the camp, in the field, and among all the people. Even the garrison and the raiders trembled, and the earth quaked so that it became a great (Heb. elohim) trembling.

    Genesis 23:6 Hear us, my lord: thou art a mighty (Heb. elohim) prince among us: in the choice of our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee his sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead.

    For more on this subject see:
    [PDF] The Hebraic Usage Of The Word “God”

    The Most High’s word was with Him in the beginning the same way his wisdom was with Him.

    Does not wisdom call, And understanding lift up her voice? On top of the heights beside the way, Where the paths meet, she takes her stand; Beside the gates, at the opening to the city, At the entrance of the doors, she cries out … Yahweh possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. From everlasting I was established, From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth[U]. When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no springs abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth; While He had not yet made the earth and the fields, Nor the first dust of the world. When He established the heavens, [U]I was there, When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep, When He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth; Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, … (Proverbs 8:1-30).

    Now if you noticed wisdom is depicted as a woman separate from Yahweh and said to be with Him. Oddly no one argues that wisdom was a member of a godhead. Why not? Because students of the bible recognize that wisdom is simply an attribute of Yahweh being personified. Remember Yahweh said …

    See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no mighty one [god] with Me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of My hand (Deuteronomy 32:39).

    “You are My witnesses,” declares YHWH, “And My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He and that before Me there was no mighty one [“god” or “a god”] formed, And there will be none after Me.

    No. Yahshua was not a mighty one [“a god”] that was with his and our Father Yahweh in the beginning!

    Now you might be saying, but Yahchanan {John] used “He” when referring to the “logos (word)” in Yahchanan [John] 1:2-4. Again, the Greek word logos is a something not a someone.

    Let’s look at Yahchanan [John] 1:2-5 and see what it says:

    The same (outou – 3778) was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him (autou – 846); and without him (autou – 846) was not any thing made that was made. In him (autw – 846) was life; and the life was the light of men.

    There are two Greek words in this sentence that are very important. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it (auto – 846) not. (KJV)

    3778. houtos outoj hoo'-tos from the article 3588 and 846; 1) this, these, etc.

    846 autos autoj ow-tos' 1) himself, herself, themselves, itself 2) he, she, it 3) the same.

    Now if you will notice, Yahchanan [John] uses the Greek word autos 4 times in these set of verses. It is translated 3 times as “him” and 1 time as “it.” Now, ask yourself, why did translators translate autos “he” then turn around and translate it as “it” if they’re still talking about the same “word” in verse 5? Based on the word “autos”, in speaking, should determine how it should be translated. Since we already know that “logos” is a something and NOT a someone, “autos” should have been translated “it” in all 4 occurrences. So actually this verse should read …

    All things were made by it (autou – 846); and without it (autou – 846) was not any thing made that was made. In it (autw – 846) was life; and the life was the light of men.

    This translation is HISTORICALLY how this verse was originally translated in the earlier English Bibles before the KJV. William Tyndale gave us our first English translation based upon the Hebrew and Greek (not the Latin Vulgate). His New Testament was published in 1526 and revised to its final state in 1534. Tyndale's translation of John 1:3-4 reads:

    All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men.

    As you can see, Tyndale used “it” instead of “him.” The Geneva Bible of 1560 uses “it” instead of “him.” The actual verses in the Geneva Bible read as such:

    All things were made by “it” and without “it” was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in the darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not.

    Another translation that doesn’t follow the traditional Catholic/Christianity trinity bias translations is the Emphatic Diaglott (translated in 1865 by B.F. Wilson). It reads:

    In the Beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with GOD, and the Logos was God. This was in the Beginning with GOD. Through it every thing was done; and without it not even one thing was done, which has been done. In it was Life; and the LIFE WAS the LIGHT of MEN. And the LIGHT shone in DARKNESS; and the DARKNESS apprehended It not.

    T
    his is one of the better translations of these verses I’ve read. Plus, based on the whole of the Scriptures, this is the most accurate. Remember, line upon line, precept upon precept. Let’s see how this translation lines up with the Tanakh.

    So what is Yahchanan telling us in these verses? When one remembers the definition of dabar and logos, you can easily see how the “word (thoughts expressed verbally or and outward expression of inward thoughts and reason; a command) can be in the beginning; just as wisdom was in the beginning (Prov 8:22-31). One author (identity unknown) wrote …

    “Similar language is found in Proverbs chapter eight where wisdom is personified as a woman. In fact, wisdom is personified as a woman throughout the opening chapters of Proverbs. However, in this particular place there is a definite parallel expression of idea with that contained in Genesis one and John one for in verse 22 we have the following:

    [Yahweh] possessed (or created as the Hebrew word primarily means — see Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance #7069.) me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old.” Note the phrase “in the beginning!” Now read verses 23-36 noting verse 30 and comparing this with John 1:1-2. Throughout these verses wisdom is talking as a woman existing separately from and throughout the same time period as YHWH. However, it is quite obvious that this must be figurative language representing YHWH’s wisdom itself and not really a separate being. Of course, maybe we should adopt the theory that there are really four persons in the godhead instead of three and that the fourth one is a woman named Wisdom! By the way, did you pay particular attention to verse 30 as was directed above? It says,

    ‘Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before Him;’”

    Yahweh’s word and wisdom are attributes of His that was with Him and is Him. His word is powerful, sublime and mighty because it is His word. Plain & simple! Now let’s look at Yahchanan 1:3:

    All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made.

    How did YAH create the universe? Again, we must go to the Hebrew Scriptures for the answer to this question.

    Let them praise the name of YHWH: for He commanded, and they were created (Psalm 148:5).

    This verse tells us that Yahweh commanded the universe to come into existence. To command means to give the word or charge.

    By the word (dabar) of Yahweh were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth (Psalm 33:6) … For He spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast (Verse 33::9).

    Again, Yahweh spoke and used the words and breath of His mouth to create the universe. This can be verified by simply going back to the beginning.

    Gen 1:3 And Yahweh said, “Let there be light: and there was light.”

    This verse shows Yahweh creating by speaking or giving the command. And yes, this is Yahweh (see: Who Is The Creator? ). Throughout Genesis this is how Yahweh created the universe (Gen.1:3,6,9,11,14,20, and 24). All these passages began with the statement, “And Yahweh said.” Yahweh spoke and it was done. Even the writer of Hebrews confirms that Yahweh used His word to create the universe:

    By trusting, we understand that the universe was created through a spoken word of Yahweh, so that what is seen did not come into being out of existing phenomena. (Hebrews 11:3 – CJB)

    This understanding agrees perfectly with Yahchanan 1:3. Remember “dabar” and “logos” means an outward expression of inward thoughts or reason. This is exactly what Proverbs tells us Yahweh used when He created.

    Yahweh by wisdom (chokmah) hath founded the earth; by understanding (tabunah) hath he established the heavens (Proverb 3:19).

    Finally …

    In it (the logos/dabar/word) was life, and the life was the light of men (Yahchanan 1:4).

    This verse can be understood in light of verses like…

    This is my comfort and consolation in my affliction: that Your word (dabar) has revived me and given me life. (Psalm 119:50 – AMP).

    I am sorely afflicted; renew and quicken me [give me life], O Yahweh, according to Your word (dabar)! (Psalm 119:50 – AMP).

    Thy word (dabar) is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. (Ps 119:105 NUN – KJV).

    Now notice something, Yahchanan uses the same speech in his letter when speaking about the word.

    That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the word of life; (For the life was manifested [MADE KNOWN], and we have seen [I]it[/U], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, [I]which was with the Father, and was manifested [MADE KNOWN unto us[/U];) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his son Yahshua Messiah. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. (1 John 1:1-4, KJV).

    That [U]which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life—the life was made manifest [MADE KNOWN], and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest [MADE KNOWN] to us—that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his son Yahshua Messiah. And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete. (1 John 1:1-4, ESV).

    Yahchanan is once again talking about the same word that was in the beginning with the Father in the intro of his first letter. Now oddly, no one ever uses these verse to argue a pre-existant Yahshua [“Jesus”], why?

    Could it be, because here the translator properly translated the word as an “it” instead of as a “him” even though in the KJV they still capitalize “word?”

    Yahchanan 1:1-5 is talking about Yahweh's spoken word! To come to any other conclusion or understanding of the passage will only cause contradictions and confusion. The Tanakh as well as the Apostolic Writings plainly tells us that Yahweh the Father is the only true Mighty One [“Elohim, God”]. It also states that He created the universe by Himself through His spoken word!

    Who Is The Word?

    …

    April 30, 2012 at 5:13 am#295681
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Frank,
    ONLY BEGOTTEN was used in the context of the WORD.
    Would you like to ADD “SON” there?

    April 30, 2012 at 5:43 am#295685
    charity
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 30 2012,15:31)

    Quote (charity @ April 30 2012,08:22)

    Quote (jammin @ April 29 2012,23:25)
    i believe what the bible said charity and not opinions from men


    The Gospel of John is an opinion. It'S never been Illegal to consume wandering mentality, build armies

    The Word “Word”, translated from the english language, which was birthed around 1066.

    Only the western cultures rattle on with the confusion…

    Because of Jeruserlem being the Inheritance, An Solomon's foriegn wives they had to start him from the beginning, or the family tree will be trimed back or cut down.

    The Jewish are NOT self concentered….THE WORLD NEEDS TO BE ASHAMED!! they are an example of a family that pass's down the Jewels, whole things cant be divided, they went down threw the first born, but hence.. that became THE problem of favoring…an law pushed its way in…on behalf of the un favored but hence legal choice….

    If a man wants to leave his youngest son all he owns…is it his right?
    what dose the “word” Jesus say about Cain&Abel?

    What was wrong with Cain that everything he offered was not good enough in the sight of his parents? God? that they should torment him as less favored, till he arrive At an emotional… chemical reaction an destroy”s his little goddie two shoe's brother via stored up anxiety an living the rejection…?


    i believe what the bible says charity.

    the word in john 1.14-18 is theson of GOD. not the father or the HS
    case closed


    yes you can drive the bible in any direction to agree with your theory…..I might add, as an under score via John, Paul,peter, but never the less your putting trust at te top of the pyrimid..the priests that mocked, spat, an murded Jesus on behalf of the Jew's, an there the latin, Roman catholic church translations, translators.. that of whch they wish to portray the life of Jesus as such. in order to keep the spoil of the jewish inheritance, Land, thrones, in the pockets…hey shall serve them
    its a nice victory when the Jewish God can made to agree with the blood shed…an forgiving of something that proved without a shadow of doubt, that they will never have to fear God ever again..do as you want for God is a substance unseen…an he never stopped one believing child from being molested by the un fearful un chastened priests. nor spineless man, neither chalanged or questioned Gods authoritiy's….

    April 30, 2012 at 5:47 am#295686
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Frank,
    Indeed Jesus Christ was the WORD personified.
    God spoke through his servant Son

    April 30, 2012 at 5:51 am#295687
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Frank,

    The Word said through the vessel Jesus

    “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you will not have life in you.”

    April 30, 2012 at 8:30 am#295693
    kerwin
    Participant

    Frank,

    John is not the only one of the First Century that spoke Philo, a Jew of Alexander, did also.  Philo called the Word, the first born Son of God.  Philo clearly teaches the Word is a non-person personification.

    Quote
    Of particular note are his references to The Logos as the Divine Reason, by participation in which humans are rational; the model of the universe; the superintendent or governor of the universe; and the first-born son of God.

    According to my source these are a summary of the words of a brother Hebrew and contemporary of John; who like John was speaking to the Greeks.  From what I have heard he explicitly denied the Word was a person but that he chose to personify it because Scripture does.

    Nick is speaking a teaching about the Word that did exist at the time.  If you wish to neuter the gender then the Son of God becomes the Child of God.

    Here is my source.

    April 30, 2012 at 9:09 am#295697
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (charity @ April 30 2012,06:54)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 30 2012,10:01)
    Charity,

    'Even a child is known by whether there is conduct is loving”.  Your conduct is not; even though you may think it is.  If it was then you would not level false accusations or judge by your measures.

    God judged the hearts of Cain and Abel when they sacrificed and Cain's motivations were unloving while Abel's demonstrated love.

    So do you believe it is right to reward the hater as well as the lover?


    excuse me, Cain A TILLER OF THE GROUND! remember the piunishment! bought an offering of the fruit of the ground, an Abel A SHEPERD OF THE SHEEP, preacher, bought the best blood sacrifice….an Cain was humiliated for bringing his offering to the table…..maybe Cain's offering was more sensible…? an Jesus would have lived? tormenting brothers about about how worthy they are is not loving…This will go on till people an the stupidity of creating Gods Nature an specking self owned thoughts as his voice stops.

    King James Version (KJV)
    Genesis –

    Gen 4:1¶And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

    Gen 4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

    Gen 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

    Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

    Gen 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
    (he was serious in pleasing God) the heart was pure!

    An to also note Law broken,  that older child”s god given credibility to rule was given over to serve  the younger…Abel commenced  blood sacrificing an offering.. against cain first born… fruits of the ground….Jesus may have lived to a grey head old man if Cain's barley was prefered an favored…..this to could have been as pleasing to the God that latter called of the sacrifice an offering anyway…


    Chatity,

    Scriptures assume you believe God is loving at will intetpret it according to that love.

    Quote
    Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast. Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it. ”

    Quote
    Deuteronomy 17:1
    New International Version (NIV)

    17 Do not sacrifice to the Lord your God an ox or a sheep that has any defect or flaw in it, for that would be detestable to him.

    Since God is unhappy with Cain's sacrifice; it means it had a defect.  A defect that was mirrored in Cain's heart.  

    We are told Abel sacrificed the best parts of his best animals while Cain just gave some of his crops.  Cain merely had to change his ways and put more effort into giving the best of best to God; just as Abel did. Instead he chose to get rid of his competition.

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