John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


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  • #289736
    Frank4YAHWEH
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    WHO IS THE WORD?
    (John 1:1)

    In  John 1:1 the writer is very plain in telling us who the 'word' was. He says the word was God. Now we must find out who God is and we will then know who the word is. Let's see who John says God is. Let's go to v.18 of this same chapter. John tells us that God is the Father, not Jesus the only begotten son. Now if we can believe John that God is the Father let's examine the Scripture back to v.1. We find the word 'God' in v.13 and John said God was the Father. In v.12, we find the word 'God,' and keeping this in context with v. 18, John has said God is the Father, not the son. Now let's go back to v.6. Here we find the word 'God'. Again staying in the context of John 1:18, John has said that God is the Father, not the son.Now let's go to v.2. We find the word 'God' again. Staying in context with John 1:18. John tells us God is the Father, not the son Jesus. Now last of all, let's go to v.1 where we find God two times. Again staying in context with v.18, we find John telling us that God is the Father ,not the son. Since John says God is the Father then the 'word' was God the Father. not Jesus the son. Believest thou this? Since God is made up of His 'word', the 'word' can be with God and be God – not another person. According to John there is only one person mentioned in John 1:1. That one person is God the Father, the Almighty.

    In John 1:14, this same 'word' that was God the Father (because the word was in the Father) produced His son Jesus. The 'word'  in John 1:14 is not Jesus. The 'word',  God the Father, produced Jesus. The word (in God the Father) 'made' flesh or an earthly fleshly tabernacle for Jesus to dwell in. This was not a new thing because the same 'word' in God the Father had produced a fleshly tabernacle for Adam, for Eve, for monkeys, for giraffes, for elephants, and etc. This same thing is shown in 1 Cor. 15:39 where Paul said “all flesh is not the same flesh but there is one kind of flesh for men, another flesh of beats, another of fishes and another of birds. The 'word' with and in God the Father made or produced all of those kinds of flesh and later produced a fleshly body for Jesus.

    A deeper understanding of this is that he word or doctrine in God the Father produced the flesh [word or doctrine] in Jesus Christ's mind. We find Jesus' flesh being his word in John 6:51 and 63. We have enclosed an article on John 1:1-18 with lines drawn on it so you can better understand that the 'word' in John 1:1 is God the Father, not Jesus the son.

    One other point on John 1:1 is found in John 20:31. “But these are written, that ye might believe Jesus is the Christ, the son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.” This is John's reason for writing this whole book of John. His reason was to prove that Jesus was the son of God and not that Jesus was God. One is completely out of context when saying that John 1:1 is saying Jesus was God. That is the opposite in John's purpose for writing this book of John. Let's stay in context throughout this whole book of John by understanding the three reasons that John give for writing this whole book. 1. That Jesus is the Christ. 2. That Jesus is the son of God. 3. That we might have life by believing what he wrote.

    Eddie Baker
    Rt. 2, Box 137
    Moberly, MO 65270
    Ph # 816 263 9709

    Yahchanan [John] 1:18 – No man has seen Yahweh at any time; the only begotten son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared [him] (A.K.J.V. – Edited and with Yahweh's Name Restored).

    Webmaster's Comment:

    Father Yahweh's word is just that, Father Yahweh's word. Father Yahweh's word is not a separate being apart from Himself that pre-existed with Him in the beginning and that created the heavens and the earth and all things in them. Yahshua is not his and our Father Yahweh's word, but the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes perfectly clear. This is why his name/title is called “The Word of Yahweh” in Revelation. Note that this does not say that Yahshua “IS” or “WAS” the word of Yahweh! Nowhere in Scripture does it ever teach that Yahshua “IS” or “WAS” the word of Yahweh or that Yahshua “IS” “God”!

    Many are deceived into believing that the “word” (that has been deliberately CAPITALIZED on and PERSONIFIED in translation) spoken of in Yahchanan [John] 1:1 is literally Father Yahweh's word as a separate being apart from Himself that pre-existed as His son Yahshua. This was done to confuse one into believing in a “Triune God”.

    Note John 1:1 in the following translations which does not give personification of Father Yahweh's word as a separate being apart from Himself:

    1. “All things were made by it” (Tyndale, 1534)

    CLICK HERE to see John 1:1 in Tyndale New Testament.

    2. “The worde … All things were made by the same” (Coverdale, 1535)
    3. “All things were made by it and without it nothing was made” (Matthews’ Bible, 1537)
    4. “All things were made by it and without it was made nothing that was made” (The Great Bible, 1539)
    5. “All things were made by it” (Taverner NT, 1540)
    6. “All things were made by it”(Whittingham, 1557)
    7. “All things were made by it” (The Geneva Bible, 1560)
    8. “All things were made by it” (Bishops’ Bible, 1568)
    9. “All things were made by it” (Tomson NT, 1607)
    10. “Nor can anything be produced that has been made without it [Reason]” (John LeClerc, 1701)
    11. “The word … through the same all things were made” (Mortimer, 1761)
    12. “In the beginning was Wisdom … All things were made by it” (Wakefield NT, 1791)
    13. “The Word … All things were made by it” (Alexander Campbell, founder of the Church of Christ, 1826)
    14. “The Word … All things were formed by it” (Dickinson, A New and Corrected Version of the NT, 1833)
    15. “All things were made by it” (Barnard, 1847)
    16. “Through it [the logos] everything was done” (Wilson, Emphatic Diaglott, 1864)

    In the beginning was the LOGOS, and the LOGOS was with GOD, and the LOGOS was God. This was in the Beginning with GOD. Through it every thing was done; and without it not even one thing was done, which has been done.

    17. “All things through it arose into being” (Folsom, 1869)
    18. “All things were made through it” (Sharpe, Revision of the Authorized English Version, 1898)
    19. “All things were made by the Love thought” (Goddard, 1916)
    20. “All things came into being in this God-conception and apart from it came not anything into being that came into being” (Overbury, 1925)
    21. “All came into being through it” (Knoch, 1926)
    22. “The word … the living expression of the Father’s thought” (Blount, Half Hours with John’sGospel, 1930)
    23. “The word was god” (C.C. Torrey, The Four Gospels, 1933)
    24. “Through the divine reason all things came into being” (Wade, The Documents of the NT Translated, 1934)
    25. “Without it nothing created sprang into existence” (Johannes Greber, 1937)
    26. “It was in the beginning with God, by its activity all things came into being” (Martin Dibelius, The Message of Jesus Christ, translated by F.C. Grant, 1939)
    27. “Through its agency all things came into being and apart from it has not one thing come to be” (William Temple, Archbishop of Canterbury, Readings from St. John’s Gospel, 1939)
    28. “The energizing mind was in existence from the very beginning” (Crofts, The Four Gospels, 1949)
    29. “First there was the Thought and the Thought was in God … He, him” (Hoare, Translation from the Greek, 1949)
    30. “In the beginning God expressed
    Himself … That personal expression, that word … He” (J.B. Philips, NT in Modern English, 1958)
    31. “All was done through it” (Tomanek, 1958)
    32. “The Word was the life principle [in creation]” (William Barclay, NT, 1969)
    33. “This same idea was at home with God when life began … He” (Jordan, Cottonpatch Version, 1970)
    34. “All things became what they are through the Word” (Dale, NT, 1973)
    35. “Within the Word was life” (Edington, 1976)
    36. “It was his last werd. Ony it come first” (Gospels in Scouse, 1977)
    37. “By it everything had being, and without it nothing had being” (Schonfield, The Original NT, 1985)
    38. “All things were made through the Word” (Inclusive Language Lectionary, 1986)
    39. “In the beginning was the Plan of Yahweh. All things were done according to it” (Hawkins, Book of Yahweh, 1987)
    40. “All things happened through it” (Gaus, Unvarnished NT, 1991)
    41. “In the beginning was the divine word and wisdom … everything came to be by means of it” (Robert Miller, The Complete Gospels, Annotated Scholars’ Version, 1992

    Clearly Yahshua is the spokesman of Father Yahweh's word in this last time period!

    http://www.bible.cc/john/12-49.htm

    http://www.bible.cc/hebrews/1-2.htm

    John Chapter One

    John 1:1 in the Greek reads “God was the word,” but most if not all English versions read, “the Word was God.” This reverses the phrase, and changes the meaning. To say “God was the word” is not the same as, “the Word was God.”

    In the Greek, the letter l in logos is not capitalized, even tho when proper, some Greek words are capitalized. But in English versions, the l is capitalized – improperly. Why? To enhance the doctrine of the Trinity, which gave birth to the theory of the Pre-existence of Yahshua.

    In verse 3 & 10, the Greek word dia is translated “through.” Since Scriptures both in the O.T. and the N.T. tell us that Yahweh (the Supreme Being) (1) created all things, (2) with no help from anyone, and (3) that no Deity was with him in the act of creating, then John 1:3 must agree with these Scriptures, especially with those in the O.T. (since the Messiah and the Apostles proved their doctrine by the O.T.). After all, The N.T. depends on the O.T. for its reason to exist. Please see the paper “Who Is the Creator?”

    “Through” is not technically a wrong translation of the word dia, if the message of the sentence indicates this. But just as Hebrews 1:1-2, and Col. 1:15-17, the word dia should be translated “on account of,” or “because of.” Reason? The message in the sentence demands this. The word dia is often translated “on account of,” or “because of.”

    Thanks,

    Voy

    Please see:

    YAHSHUA: Did He Pre-exist?
    An Explanation Of Our Views
    By Voy Wilks
    10/23/90

    Following is an excerpt from:

    Jesus Did Not Pre-Exist

    In The Beginning Was The Word (John 1)

    John's Gospel commences with this statement, and goes on to state that this word was with God and was God, and made all things (vv. 1-4). And because the title, Word of God, is applied to the Lord Jesus in Revelation 19:13, it is claimed that these verses in John relate to a pre-existent Christ.

    If this were so, however, it would make the Bible appear hopelessly contradictory, for such reference as: “I will be his Father, and He shall be my son,” “I will make him My firstborn,” “Jesus Christ the son of Abraham the son of David” are at variance with the teaching that represents Jesus as already living.

    The Greek term translated “word” is logos. It signifies the outward form of inward thought or reason, or the spoken word as illustrative of thought, wisdom and doctrine.

    John is teaching that in the very beginning, God's purpose, wisdom or revelation had been in evidence. It was “with God” in that it emanated from him; it “was God” in that it represented Him to mankind [a similar expression is used by Christ in Matthew 26:28: “This is my blood” — that is, this represents my blood. Again in Matthew 13:20: “the same is he” signifies the same, “represents he.” “That rock was Christ” (1 Cor. 10:4), it represented Christ]; and it became the motive power of all that God did, for all was made with it in mind, and it presented the hope of life to mankind (see John 1: 3-4).

    What John is stating, therefore, is that in the very beginning there existed the wisdom or purpose of God, and that it was revealed unto men to provide a way of life.

    What did it proclaim?

    The coming of one who would overcome sin and give reality to the hope of life. The promise of this was stated from the beginning in the Word or Doctrine of God (e.g. Genesis 3:15).

    This Word, Wisdom or Doctrine found its reality, its substance, its confirmation (Romans 15:8) in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ; therefore John taught:

    “The word was made (Greek-ginomai “became”) flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth” (John 1:14).

    The Word was made flesh, or became flesh, as it is expressed in the Greek. The Declaration of Divine wisdom found its substance and reality in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. Before his advent, it was a mere Word or Promise, but when he became manifested, it became a person.

    The person did not exist before the birth of the child Jesus; but the promise and wisdom of God always existed.

    That is the teaching of John. It does away with the embarrassment of teaching that an angel became an embryo in the womb of a woman, as demanded by the theory of a pre-existent Jesus.

    We acknowledge that “Word” is personalized as “him”, in John 1:4, but that is a common Hebraism found throughout the Bible. Riches, Wisdom, Sin, and other subjects are similarly treated. Sometimes these are used to press the doctrine of pre-existence. For example, on several occasions, Jehovah's Witnesses have drawn attention to such passages as Proverbs 8:22, and applied them to their notion of a pre-existent Jesus. The passage reads:

    “The Lord possessed me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old.”

    The subject matter of the chapter is wisdom which is personified; but, unfortunately for the doctrine of the preexistent son, it is personified as a woman: “She standeth, she crieth” etc. (Prov. 8:1-3).

    JOHN 1:1
    Semantics Count
    By Sidney Hatch

    What does John 1:1 really say? We were discussing the person Yahshua when someone said, “'In the beginning was the word, and the word was with YHWH and the word was YHWH.' There, that proves that Yahshua was YHWH.”

    John 1:1 was the Scripture quoted. It is a common assumption that this teaches the deity of Yahshua. Word” in Greek is “logos.” It occurs more than 300 times in the New Testament, and simply means a spoken word, a teaching, a report, etc.

    John 1:1 says three things about this “logos,” or spoken word:

    (1)   It was in the beginning.
    (2)   It was with YHWH.
    (3)   It was YHWH.

    What do these remarkable statements mean?

    (1)   The phrase, “in the beginning,” tells us immediately that John speaks of the creation; the events described in Genesis 1:1.

    (2)  The spoken word of YHWH was the great force in those momentous days.

    (3)   To say that the word was “with YHWH” tells us that it was the spoken word of YHWH himself, not that of another person.

    Here John answers the Gnostic idea that YHWH is too aloof and remote to have done the creating himself, and so did the creating through an agent. This [thoroughly Greek] idea * penetrated Christianity with the teaching that the second person of a triune YHWH did the creating. (Colossians 1:16 does not say that Yahshua created all things. It
    says that YHWH  created all things because of Him and for Him).

    To say that the spoken word was YHWH, is a Hebraic way of saying that YHWH's word was mighty and powerful. The Greek word “theos” is the equivalent of the Hebrew “elohim,” which means essentially that something is mighty or powerful.

    John 1:3 tells us that the world was created by the spoken word: “All things were made by it; and without it was not anything made that was made.” This is confirmed in Psalms 33:6-9, which says YHWH spoke, and it was done, He commanded, and the world stood fast.

    Finally, the 14th verse of John 1 tells us this “logos” or spoken word was made flesh, a human being, and dwelt among us. It does not say that YHWH became flesh. It says that YHWH created “flesh.” a human being, who would be His messenger or spokesman.

    The purpose of the entire message in John 1:1-18 is to prove that Yahshua was YHWH's Messenger, the final expression of His purpose and will to the world. He [YHWH] was the spoken word … Hebrews 1:1-2 sums it all up when it says in times past YHWH spoke in various and fragmentary ways, especially through the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son.”

    This person (mentioned above) thinks of John 1:1 as though it reads, “In the beginning was Yahshua, and Yahshua was with YHWH, and Yahshua was YHWH.” This is indeed a popular understanding of this verse, and Christian people can ** hardly be blamed , because responsibility rest upon the shoulders of religious professionals who teach this. That, however, is not what it says.

    An amplified paraphrase of John 1:1 would be as follows: “YHWH's spoken word was in the beginning at creation. It was His word, not the word of another, and it [His spoken word] was mighty and powerful – sufficiently powerful to create all things.”

    *   Voy's note:

    “Logos”, a Greek word meaning speech , organization, rational order, rational relationship, or rational expression common in Greek philosophical writings” (Encyclopedia. Judaica, article: Logos).

    In the “Sixth Letter,” sometime attributed to that Greek philosopher, Plato, “the son of the true god is identified as the divine governor and origin of all things present and future” (Ibid).

    Does this sound familiar? It certainly does. This is the Christian view of the Nazarene who died on the tree, being son of the Supreme G-d, he (not his Father) is honored as the Creator.

    Just as the early Greek and Gentile Christians retained their pagan doctrines of the immorality of the soul, of the Trinity, of the pagan holidays such as Christmas, Ester, Halloween, and Mat Day; they also retained their belief that it was the “son of the Supreme G-d” who did the actual work in creating the universe. Only one step further brought them to the analogy of identifying Yahshua as this Son who created the heavens and the earth.

    **   Webmaster's Scriptural references:

    He also told them this parable: “Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? (Lukyah 6:39; Mattithyah [Matthew]15:13-14).

    John 1 Properly Translated by the Late Professor of the Exegesis of Holy Scripture at the University of Oxford

    Some people say, “I don't need scholars. I just read my Bible.” This statement contains a hidden fallacy. The Bible you read (unless you are reading the Greek and Hebrew) comes to you via a scholar or scholars who have decided to translate it in a certain way. But you may not know that other equally distinguished linguists and scholars offer a very different understanding.Many think that John 1:1, 2, 14 mean “In the beginning was the Word – that is, the Son of God – and the Son was with God and all things were made by him, the Son…and the Son became flesh.”

    But here is what John really intended according to other scholars and based on John's very Jewish background in the Hebrew Bible:

       “In the beginning was the purpose, the purpose in the mind of God, the purpose which was God's own being… this purpose took human form in Jesus of Nazareth” (G.B. Caird, New Testament Theology, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1995, p. 332).

    This translation avoids the appalling complexities of  Trinitarianism, which no one can explain. John did not teach that the Son was alive before his birth. What “preexisted” was a Purpose – God's logos, or Purpose – not the Son. The Son first came into being when he was created as the Second Adam in the womb of his mother Mary – by miracle. He is indeed the promised “seed of the woman.” The Jewish people believed only in preexisting Purposes, not in preexisting Persons. The capital W on Word in your Bible comes to you because of the decision of a scholar, who expects John to teach that the word was a Person preexisting. There is no such capital letter in the Greek text of John – and no need to think of the word as other than a”word/promise/purpose.” Word had occurred 1655 times in the Old Testament and never meant a Person, not once! “As a man thinks, so is he.” “As God thinks and plans, so is He.” Thus “the word was God and all things came into being through the word.”

    Following is an emphasized translation done by 'kids in america' (which I have personally edited w/RESTORATION OF NAMES) at:
    http://www.city-data.com/forum….-9.html

    “We declare to you what was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life– this life was revealed, and we have seen it and testify to it, and declare to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us — we declare to you what we have seen and heard so that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His son Yahshua Messiah. We are writing these things so that our joy may be complete. This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that Yahweh is light and in Him there is no darkness at all. ” (1 Yahchanan [John] 1:1-5).

    “In the beginning was the word, and the word was with Yahweh, and Yahweh was the word. This was in the beginning with Yahweh. All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being. In it was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light is appearing in the darkness, and the darkness grasped it not. And the word became flesh and tabernacles among us, and we gaze at his esteem, an esteem as of an only-begotten from the Father, full of favor and truth.” (Yahchanan [John] 1:1-5,14).
    SOURCE

    #289741
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Frank
    Your source says
    “A deeper understanding of this is that he word or doctrine in God the Father produced the flesh [word or doctrine] in Jesus Christ's mind. We find Jesus' flesh being his word in John 6:51 and 63. “

    Sounds gnostic

    #289743
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi T,
    Whose Spirit does the Bible say we have recieved that crys “Abba Father”?
    THE SPIRIT-OF CHRIST

    if you receive the spirit of Christ who is it that gives it ,
    JESUS THROUGH HIS BROTHERS OR DIRECTLY

    if you possess it what makes it visible ??
    THE POWERS AND FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT

    #289750
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2012,09:20)
    Hi Frank
    Your source says
    “A deeper understanding of this is that he word or doctrine in God the Father produced the flesh [word or doctrine] in Jesus Christ's mind. We find Jesus' flesh being his word in John 6:51 and 63. “

    Sounds gnostic


    Nick,

    You obviously do not know what you are talking about! :D

    #289751
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2012,16:51)
    Hi T,
    Whose Spirit does the Bible say we have recieved that crys “Abba Father”?  
    THE SPIRIT-OF CHRIST

    if you receive the spirit of Christ who is it that gives it ,
    JESUS THROUGH HIS BROTHERS OR DIRECTLY

    if you possess it what makes it visible ??
    THE POWERS AND FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT


    N

    if you receive it then you have already produced the fruits of it ,

    the spirit of Christ is not a bags of goodies that are hand over to you ,but is a additional blessing to and for what you have already acquired in Gods service

    #289754
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    For Yahweh has not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind (2 Timothy 1:7).

    This same spirit Father Yahweh gave to His son Yahshua which is “the spirit of Messiah”.

    There is one body, and one spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling; … (Ephesians 4:4).

    #289758
    jammin
    Participant

    the WORD in john 1.1 is the son of GOD and not the father.
    john 1

    14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    the son of GOD is GOD by nature.

    john 1.1
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    that's what the bible says.

    #289760
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Jammin,
    Indeed by the Anointing of the Spirit the Nazarene became the Christ, the Son of the living God.

    #289764
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 04 2012,12:11)
    the WORD in john 1.1 is the son of GOD and not the father.
    john 1

    14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    the son of GOD is GOD by nature.

    john 1.1
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    that's what the bible says.


    I myself do not believe such foolishness! I believe that Father Yahweh's word is just that, His word, and that His word is has power, strength or might. I do not believe that Father Yahweh's word is a separate being that exist apart from Him as His son. Yahshua is the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes perfectly clear. Nowhere in Scripture does it ever say or teach “the WORD is the son of GOD.”

    #289766
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 04 2012,07:25)

    Quote (jammin @ April 04 2012,12:11)
    the WORD in john 1.1 is the son of GOD and not the father.
    john 1

    14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    the son of GOD is GOD by nature.

    john 1.1
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    that's what the bible says.


    I myself do not believe such foolishness! I believe that Father Yahweh's word is just that, His word, and that His word is has power, strength or might. I do not believe that Father Yahweh's word is a separate being that exist apart from Him as His son. Yahshua is the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes perfectly clear. Nowhere in Scripture does it ever say or teach “the WORD is the son of GOD.”


    Frank4YAHWEH,

    The Anointed is more than just a spokesman; as I am sure you will agree.

    #289768
    jammin
    Participant

    frank,

    that is what the bible says.

    now make your own version LOL

    #289769
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ April 04 2012,12:34)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 04 2012,07:25)

    Quote (jammin @ April 04 2012,12:11)
    the WORD in john 1.1 is the son of GOD and not the father.
    john 1

    14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    the son of GOD is GOD by nature.

    john 1.1
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    that's what the bible says.


    I myself do not believe such foolishness! I believe that Father Yahweh's word is just that, His word, and that His word is has power, strength or might. I do not believe that Father Yahweh's word is a separate being that exist apart from Him as His son. Yahshua is the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes perfectly clear. Nowhere in Scripture does it ever say or teach “the WORD is the son of GOD.”


    Frank4YAHWEH,

    The Anointed is more than just a spokesman; as I am sure you will agree.


    Yes, I would agree, but in reference to Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word, he is in fact the spokesman of His word.

    #289770
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 04 2012,12:35)
    frank,

    that is what the bible says.

    now make your own version LOL


    That is how Trinitarian translators translated their so-called “Holy Bible”. They have perverted, twisted and wrested Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word to their own destruction and in turn how many are deceived by these types of translations.

    #289771
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 04 2012,05:44)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2012,09:20)
    Hi Frank
    Your source says
    “A deeper understanding of this is that he word or doctrine in God the Father produced the flesh [word or doctrine] in Jesus Christ's mind. We find Jesus' flesh being his word in John 6:51 and 63. “

    Sounds gnostic


    Nick,

    You obviously do not know what you are talking about!  :D


    Frank,

    Your source is long and convoluted.   It is also technical.  See if you can break it down to smaller bites that the non-technical mind can grasp.

    Why is the Word Yahweh?
    Why is the Word with Yahweh in the beginning?

    #289772
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 04 2012,12:47)

    Quote (jammin @ April 04 2012,12:35)
    frank,

    that is what the bible says.

    now make your own version LOL


    That is how Trinitarian translators translated their so-called “Holy Bible”. They have perverted, twisted and wrested Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word to their own destruction and in turn how many are deceived by these types of translations.


    really??

    LOL

    give me any single translation that says in john 1.1 that the word is the father.

    i double dare you

    you may start searching now LOL

    #289773
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 04 2012,12:35)
    frank,

    that is what the bible says.

    now make your own version LOL


    These Trinitarian translators have made their own versions long ago and still to this very time period continue to publish such perverted, twisted and wrested versions in a vain attempt to promote their “Triune God”.

    #289774
    jammin
    Participant

    really??

    LOL

    give me any single translation that says in john 1.1 that the word is the father.

    i double dare you

    you may start searching now LOL

    #289779
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 04 2012,12:48)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 04 2012,12:47)

    Quote (jammin @ April 04 2012,12:35)
    frank,

    that is what the bible says.

    now make your own version LOL


    That is how Trinitarian translators translated their so-called “Holy Bible”. They have perverted, twisted and wrested Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word to their own destruction and in turn how many are deceived by these types of translations.


    really??

    LOL

    give me any single translation that says in john 1.1 that the word is the father.

    i double dare you

    you may start searching now LOL


    Where have I ever said that Scripture says “The word is the Father”? I believe I was more specific in saying that Father Yahweh's word is just that, His word, and that His word is and has strength, power, or might. Figuratively speaking though, I do believe that Father Yahweh's word is in fact He himself just as my word is in fact I myself in this forum that I am posting to.

    #289781
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 04 2012,12:54)
    really??

    LOL

    give me any single translation that says in john 1.1 that the word is the father.

    i double dare you

    you may start searching now LOL


    I could also turn the table on you and ask you for a single translation that says in Yahchanan [John] 1:1 that the word is the son. :D

    #289783
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ April 04 2012,12:47)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 04 2012,05:44)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2012,09:20)
    Hi Frank
    Your source says
    “A deeper understanding of this is that he word or doctrine in God the Father produced the flesh [word or doctrine] in Jesus Christ's mind. We find Jesus' flesh being his word in John 6:51 and 63. “

    Sounds gnostic


    Nick,

    You obviously do not know what you are talking about!  :D


    Frank,

    Your source is long and convoluted.   It is also technical.  See if you can break it down to smaller bites that the non-technical mind can grasp.

    Why is the Word Yahweh?
    Why is the Word with Yahweh in the beginning?


    Father Yahweh's word is just that, His word. Father Yahweh's word was with Him in the beginning just as my word was with me when I began to speak and still is with me to this very time period. Is not your word with you? If not, who do you believe that your word is with? You can have words with someone, but the fact is, your word originated with you yourself. One can also act as a spokesman of your word, but then again, your word that another can be the spokesman of in fact originated with you. Certainly you do not believe that the one who can be the spokesman of your word is literally your word, do you?

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