John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 3,621 through 3,640 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
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  • #198618
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Oxy @ June 20 2010,14:38)
    This is what the Bible says about the Word of God:

    Heb 4:12  For the Word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing apart of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    Note the words living, powerful, discerner.  This is not talking about the Bible, this clearly shows that the Word is living, which the Bible is not.  The Bible is a book and is not alive, is not powerful and cannot discern.  The only life the Bible has is the revelation the Spirit brings through the Scriptures, but the Bible has not life in itself.


    Hi Oxy,

    Then why do you have trouble understanding what I said Here? <– Fifth Post down

    Ed J
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #198621
    Oxy
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ June 20 2010,16:52)

    Quote (Oxy @ June 20 2010,14:38)
    When I read the Bible I do not “hear” it, I read it.  


    Hi Oxy,

    Then explain why these verse are in the bible?
    Rev.2:7, Rev.2:11, Rev.2:17, Rev.2:29, Rev.3:6, Rev.3:13 & Rev.3:22

    Ed J
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    Rev 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the Tree of Life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

    Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.

    Rev 2:29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

    There is a difference between hearing what the Spirit is saying and reading the Scriptures. One is hearing, the other reading.

    Because what the Spirit said was being quoted it was reasonable to say what was said.

    #198623
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Oxy………Why did Jesus say the words i am telling you are (NOT) Mine if He was the (WORD) of GOD and GOD Himself? Why did Jesus say he could do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF., And said the FATHER (IN) Him HE DOTH the WORKS> Don't you have to shove a lot of Scriptures asidt even scriptures Jesus said , in prayer ” FOR THOU ARE THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD”. What do you make of all this?

    peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

    #198627
    Oxy
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 20 2010,16:58)
    Oxy………Why did Jesus say the words i am telling you are (NOT) Mine if He was the (WORD) of GOD and GOD Himself? Why did Jesus say he could do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF., And said the FATHER (IN) Him HE DOTH the WORKS> Don't you have to shove a lot of Scriptures asidt even scriptures Jesus said , in prayer ” FOR THOU ARE THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD”. What do you make of all this?

    peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene


    Gene, I feel like I'm going round in circles. In a number of my previous posts I have pointed out the answer to your question.

    The Almighty God became the Father when Jesus was born.
    The Word, which proceeded from God, and was with God and was God became flesh and was called Jesus. He has since been restored to His former glory.

    Joh 15:26 And when the Comforter has come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He shall testify of Me.

    #198638
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Oxy……….I can't find where you answered them. Maybe you did guise i just did not see it brother.

    peace and love to you and yours………………….gene

    #198665
    Oxy
    Participant

    Perhaps if you can show me a verse that says “Scripture is the Word of God” we can put this to rest, but as I said before, my Bible tells me that the Word was made flesh.. and there's no flesh on my Bible :D

    #198668
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Oxy @ June 20 2010,18:01)
    Perhaps if you can show me a verse that says “Scripture is the Word of God” we can put this to rest, but as I said before, my Bible tells me that the Word was made flesh.. and there's no flesh on my Bible :D


    Hi Oxy,

    2Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:
    but holy men of God “spake” as they were moved by the HolySpirit.
    2Tm.3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable
    for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings:
    and “The word” which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
    ([ο λογος] Hō Lōgôs)

    Ed J
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #198676
    Oxy
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ June 20 2010,20:17)

    Quote (Oxy @ June 20 2010,18:01)
    Perhaps if you can show me a verse that says “Scripture is the Word of God” we can put this to rest, but as I said before, my Bible tells me that the Word was made flesh.. and there's no flesh on my Bible :D


    Hi Oxy,

    2Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:
    but holy men of God “spake” as they were moved by the HolySpirit.
    2Tm.3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable
    for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings:
    and “The word” which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
    ([ο λογος] Hō Lōgôs)

    Ed J
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    2 Peter 1:21 does not say the Bible is the Word.

    2 Tim 3:16 does not say the Bible is the Word.

    John 14:24 does not say the Bible is the Word. It talks about keeping the words and saying Jesus spoke.

    #198677
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi JA,
    Are all infants sinless?

    #198680
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Oxy,
    Folks often claim that they are guided by the voice of God and perhaps some are.
    We are warned to test the spirits.
    But the Spirit reminds us of the words of Jesus and we know them from what is written.

    #198682
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Oxy @ June 20 2010,19:45)

    Quote (Ed J @ June 20 2010,20:17)

    Quote (Oxy @ June 20 2010,18:01)
    Perhaps if you can show me a verse that says “Scripture is the Word of God” we can put this to rest, but as I said before, my Bible tells me that the Word was made flesh.. and there's no flesh on my Bible :D


    Hi Oxy,

    2Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:
    but holy men of God “spake” as they were moved by the HolySpirit.
    2Tm.3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable
    for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings:
    and “The word” which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
    ([ο λογος] Hō Lōgôs)

    Ed J
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    2 Peter 1:21 does not say the Bible is the Word.

    2 Tim 3:16 does not say the Bible is the Word.

    John 14:24 does not say the Bible is the Word.  It talks about keeping the words and saying Jesus spoke.


    Hi Oxy,

    You remind me how Gene says there is no free will in the bible.
    Psalm 68:11 The Lord gave “The word”: great was the company of those that published it.

    Ed J
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #198683
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Oxy,
    You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about me. And you are unwilling to come to me to have life[jn5]
    The Israelites had the precious words but analysed them with their minds rather than taking them into their hearts as food.
    We can have the Author to help us know God and His words in the OT and the NT.
    We have less excuse. Those to whom much has been given…

    #198692
    Tim Kraft
    Participant

    To all: Any and all words written or spoken that bear the fruit of God are always building up, calming, peaceful, loving, creative, forgiving, et.al.! God's words are Spirit and life. Whether written or spoken they heal and create life, love and goodness. Any person that chooses to learn from the Bible should realize that whatever you are searching for is there for you to find. If you have been taught or told that God is a harsh God and kills and destroys, that is what you will find in the old testament. If someone says satan is the god of this world then to that person evil rules his life. Satan is a lie and certainly not a god of this world for me. Always look for the good news of God. If you follow Jesus, his revelation of God is love. If you read the NT first four gospels you will find good news for mankind with a loving God for those who accept and believe their purification through Christ. Those who remain in a sin consciousness believing they are in sin will recieve the reward of a sinner. Sickness and death will be their reward. Just believe in life and live in God. God bless all, TK

    #198704
    JustAskin
    Participant

    Nick,

    No and yes.

    No: All human being are born into a sinful state (Sinful man cannot create sinless man – that's why Jesus was created by the Holy Spirit – The Life/Mind Force from the Spirit but the Flesh/Dust body from Mary)

    Yes: “Innocent” of Sin – but even infants will be judged on the last day – They will be given the chance to believe or not and judged according ly – Just as any others who are 'innocent' of the knowledge of God (And that is why Jesus was taken by the Holy to Preach to the Dead of Noah's days).

    In any case, Why you not answer my questions to RM, first?

    #198713
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Oxy………A Word is simply a WORD rather written or spoken , it is simply communicating (INTELLIGENCE) TO US, It is spirit, Jesus said the Words i am telling you (are) Spirit and life. Words a expressions of ones thoughts and the words of GOD express GOD'S thoughts , just like your words express your thoughts. Your words represent you because they come from your mind they are who you are, “SO A MAN THINKS SO HE IS”, Jesus said not that which goes into the mouth does not defile Him but that which comes out (his words) that is what defiles the man, because it proceed out from the heart, the same with GOD.

    He and His words are one and the same being, just as you and your words are one and the same being. Jesus is (NOT) GOD'S Word, He spoke them to us, being given them by inspiration of GOD'S SPIRIT. Those word can be written down, just like you words can, and if you write your words down is that not your thoughts and is that not the same as you speaking them. A word is simply a means to transfer (intellect) from one being to another. God's words are His thoughts given to us and are transmitted to our minds and take residence there, and begin to germinate in our hearts and minds producing fruits of the spirit in our lives. There is no difference if the words are spoken or written , word still transmit knowledge, rather good or evil rather written or spoken, makes no difference.

    To literally think a word (is) flesh is wrong Oxy, a word can (never) become flesh , it can come to be (IN) a flesh person as in the case of Jesus, but could never (BE) flesh. Remember Jesus said the words he spoke were (NOT) his words. We can all speak GOD'S words, and do when we quote them, were then are like Jesus quoting someone else's words, GOD and HIS WORDS are one and the SAME , Just as you and your word are one and the same. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours brother…………………………………..gene

    #198716
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    RM……….JA is right on this one , when you dabble with Mystery religion you really do get confused, dump the Trinitarian garbage completely and you will move away for that muddy water of confusion. Isa 1:18, WJ, JK, will grab any straw they can to support there misunderstandings which only clouds the truth of GOD. Jesus in (NO) WAY IS TRUE GOD, Just as He said He was not (TRUE) GOD. Man when you start down a wrong trail it just keep going. But we all can at anytime with GOD'S help go back to the start and start over. IMO

    peace and love…………….gene

    #198717
    Tim Kraft
    Participant

    JA: Jesus didn't die, he is alive and well! We talk every day and I believe you do too!

    In the begining was the word. Jesus said his words are spirit. Jesus said God is spirit. Then Jesus/God/Spirit/life/good are all God.

    God formed Adam from the dust of the earth. God breathed into his nostrils, life/spirit! I would call that God/Man!

    When a baby takes its first breath of life/God/spirit he is annimated and quickened as a human being. Man and God together. God is our life force. Take away the breath/God/spirit from a man and he dies physically.

    It is blasphemy to say the nature of man is sinful! On one hand you say the things one does or how he acts makes him a sinner and on the other hand you say a child who has done no acts of any kind is sinful. These beliefs could only come from a sin consciousness.

    If a person has believed Jesus has cleansed him from all sin and he is now the righteousness of God in Christ, then he has been judged by the word of God and has passed from death to life. No further judgement is necessary.

    It seems to me that John 1:1 says in the beginning was the word, the word was God.Jesus was the expressed word of God. Jesus was the word/spirit/God/light/truth et.al.!

    If a human breathes, he has God in him! And he does not have a sin nature. No animal or human can change their nature. You can dress up a pig but he is still a pig. A human is a human with God in him as his life source or he is not alive. Man having a sin nature is a destructive, man made doctrine. God bless, TK

    #198726
    RokkaMan
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 21 2010,01:06)
    RM……….JA is right on this one , when you dabble with Mystery religion you really do get confused, dump the Trinitarian garbage completely and you will move away for that muddy water of confusion. Isa 1:18, WJ, JK, will grab any straw they can to  support there misunderstandings which only clouds the truth of GOD. Jesus in (NO) WAY IS TRUE GOD, Just as He said He was not (TRUE) GOD. Man when you start down a wrong trail it just keep going. But we all can at anytime with GOD'S help go back to the start and start over. IMO

    peace and love…………….gene


    First off, you're not saying anything but condemning…kinda drifting in the direction Nick does with all his post, so there's nothing I can really say to respond to the nothingness your post addressed besides condemnation.

    secondly, i'll quote JA, and respond to him shortly.
    I would like to pull some bible verses to do so…so give me a sec.

    #198731
    RokkaMan
    Participant

    Quote (JustAskin @ June 20 2010,07:34)
    RM,
    You have presented AN answer. Politicians are experts at providing answers that are not answers but only appear that way.

    Additionally, You cannot decide that you have answered me.
    What you should say us, 'Have I answered you, to your satisfaction?'

    Then I say, 'yeh', or ,'neh'.

    As what did Jesus  die, God or Man?

    Was Jesus Man or was he God?

    There is no such thing as a God-Man.

    Not a single word of Scriptures alludes to such a being. Or else show me what the delusional spirit put into your mind to show that…

    Besides, what does the Scriptures say about concerning God and His [Manifestation], 'For us there is ONE GOD, the Father, and ONE Lord, the MAN Jesus Christ'
    And also, among many others, (Ephesians 4:13), “till we come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a Perfect Man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.”

    And also, if Jesus did not die, except his flesh died, then what need was there for God raising up his flesh body. After all, even angels can create flesh and bone bodies!

    Corinthians 15:45~49, …the last Adam (man created sinless) … The 'heavenly MAN', not 'God'…

    And your ocean analogy doesn't hold water…

    If Jesus is the cup then and the cup is his physical body…that would mean that his 'cup'/Physical body holds the full ocean seeing that God 'Scooped' up the Holy Spirit into Jesus…'without measure'.
    Besides, the whole analogy was jibberish to start with. Which muddy stream did you dredge that up from?

    1 John 4: 1~… Read it…
    You say that Jesus is God…come in the flesh…??
    Nowhere in Scriptures does it say that God came in the flesh but yet You say so.

    GOD came in the flesh (False)
    Jesus came in the flesh (True)
    Therefore Jesus is God…(False and True = False)


    Quote
    As what did Jesus  die, God or Man?

    He died as a man.

    Quote
    There is no such thing as a God-Man.

    Who are you to say that, if that is what God has established?
    If you make a claim like that, support it with verses.

    Plenty of prophets (sons of God) had died for God, but I don't see any of them atoning for our sins? What makes Jesus different since you AT's want to compare Jesus so much to the ordinary man.

    Quote
    Not a single word of Scriptures alludes to such a being. Or else show me what the delusional spirit put into your mind to show that…

    Father forgive him for he knows not what he says. Before our Job is done, you will believe in the spirit you're calling delusional.

    Quote
    Besides, what does the Scriptures say about concerning God and His [Manifestation], 'For us there is ONE GOD, the Father, and ONE Lord, the MAN Jesus Christ'
    And also, among many others, (Ephesians 4:13), “till we come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a Perfect Man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.”

    First off, only GOD IS LORD.

    Second off,
    This post is meaningless in understanding Jesus' identity. It doesn't address it, and his audience weren't looking to understand it. Paul wrote Ephesians for the ephesians…so his concern wasn't proving who Jesus was in that verse. He was simply preaching the Gospel. You need to go to the OT, or places like hebrews to understand who Jesus was. Plus I also have scripture PAUL did write concerning Jesus' identity.

    Collosians 2
    6As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

    7Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

    8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

    9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

    As we see here, Paul in scripture, tells us that in him dwelleth the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    Now, i can take YOUR position if it just said…In him dwelleth the fulness of the Godhead.

    Then that means God was in him.

    But when Paul added that bodily at the end, it changes the meaning.

    It goes from being > God dwelling in the body.
    to

    God dwelling in christ physically.

    Lets take another look at another piece of scripture to understand what the above means to dwell in christ physically.

    ————–
    Philippians 2
    6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    So Paul is boldy stating that Christ was in the form of God?

    According to you, HOW DARE HE SAY A MAN IS GOD….

    but he did =/

    ———-

    Quote
    And also, if Jesus did not die, except his flesh died, then what need was there for God raising up his flesh body. After all, even angels can create flesh and bone bodies!

    Because The sins of The Father are passed down to the child.
    The bible doesn't say anything about the sins of The Mother.

    Well we know Jesus was born of ONLY a mother and his Father being God himself.

    So he wasn't heir or born into sin, unto Adam.

    He was the only human being to be born free of sin.
    He wasn't tied down to the curse.

    So he technically should have never died physically according to God's law.

    But in dying physically, God put the righteous to death in which it was unjust…( but just since Jesus/God willed to die)

    So that if the righteous can be condemned and punished, a phenomenonal pathway can be created to allow the wicked to be saved and rewarded.

    ———-
    The whole point was that Jesus wasn't suppose to die physically because he was sinless.

    The price of sin is death, Jesus never sinned.

    So take the focus off the physical aspect and start understanding what is actually going on.

    ——————-

    Quote
    Corinthians 15:45~49, …the last Adam (man created sinless) … The 'heavenly MAN', not 'God'…

    Doesn't prove anything, I&#39
    ;ve acknowledged he was fully man and fully God. If your going to present something, present something that addresses both, not just one aspect of Jesus.

    When we see Jesus walking in the street, that only addresses his physical body as a man, when we see him healing someone it addresses his spiritual nature.

    So if you're going to present something, present scripture that applies to both…because I agree with the verse you pointed out, but it has no effect on my cause.

    ————-

    Quote
    And your ocean analogy doesn't hold water…

    Lol how doesn't it hold water? I mean I even put a cup in it to hold the water!!! lol

    Just kidding… it actually does.

    So you're looking at it from the limitations of man.

    You need to open your mind to the possibilities of God.

    We can see even now that our HUMAN TEMPORARY FINITE BODIES…

    ARE HOLDING OUR INIFINITE ETERNAL SOULS.

    So yes this one little cup called a body, can hold and inifinite spirit.

    Is there anything too great for God to do?

    Just cause you don't understand it, doesn't mean it's false.
    ————–

    Quote
    You say that Jesus is God…come in the flesh…??
    Nowhere in Scriptures does it say that God came in the flesh but yet You say so.

    John 1: 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    John 14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    Following the chain of logic.

    In the beginning was the word, the word was with god (as a son), the word was God (is God) the word was made flesh and dwelt amongst us (god became man) we beheld his glory as the only begotten of the father ( we witnessed him to be The only begotten son of God) full of grace and truth.

    So you're wrong, scripture definately says God became flesh.
    ————

    Quote
    GOD came in the flesh (False)
    Jesus came in the flesh (True)
    Therefore Jesus is God…(False and True = False)

    Let me fix that.

    GOD came in the flesh (True)
    Jesus came in the flesh (True)
    Therefore Jesus is God…(True and True = True)
    ——–
    Have I answered all your questions to your satisfaction? Even if it doesn't matter whether your satisfied or not, because the validity of scripture is not dictated by your position, but that of God's position alone?

    #198732
    RokkaMan
    Participant

    So Gene, don't be quick to jump onto someone's side until you at least hear a rebuttle, because then you make the person your defending, and yourself look like fools.

    —–

    All i ask is that we stay on topic…if you have questions, ask them and they will be addressed.

    Don't go off condemning and pointing fingers when you yourself may actually be wrong.

    Ask questions, so that answers may be provided.

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