John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 3,581 through 3,600 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #198288
    RokkaMan
    Participant

    Lol I had to read up on sabellianism
    I didn't even know there was a classification.

    The best person to discuss it with is Simply Forgiven. He's wise in this field and has helped me break out of trinitarianism.

    I guess sabellianism is anti-trinitarian as well, but I have a stigma with anti-trinitarians not believing Jesus is God.

    He has to be or else this whole gospel is meaningless?

    And we're all Idolaters.

    I'll start a thread early in the morning, that way I can make sure SF has a healthy chance to place his input before Nick Hassan poisons the thread with a bunch of meaningless one-liners. lol

    #198289
    Is 1:18
    Participant

    No worries. Something for you to sleep on – if Yeshua and the Father are different manifestations of the same person, why does Yeshua pray to His Father?

    ???

    #198290
    942767
    Participant

    Hi RM:

    My position is that there is One God who is above all including Jesus.

    Whether or not you agree, that is what the Word of God teaches.

    Quote
    Ephesians 4:6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    Quote
    1 Co. 8:6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #198291
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (RokkaMan @ June 19 2010,06:34)
    Amg i don't want to read a book of verse, I am simply asking “you” (as in individuals) you're position and a verse or two of scripture to support your belief.

    Please just a simple yes or no.


    Hi RokkaMan,

    The Word is the “HolySpirit”; Jesus' Father. (Heb.7:28)
    John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings:
    and “The word” which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
    ([ο λογος] Hō Lōgôs)

    Ed J
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #198293
    Oxy
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 19 2010,14:38)
    Hi,
    Scripture is the mouth of God by God's Spirit.


    Scripture is the MOUTH OF GOD Nick??? I thought it was the BOOK of God. The Bible must not be confused with the Word of God Who became FLESH, not a book!!

    #198294
    942767
    Participant

    Hi Oxy:

    Is the bible the Word of God?

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #198295
    Oxy
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 19 2010,18:54)
    Hi RM,
    Fruit?

    Man cannot live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.
    All scripture is inspired.
    2 peter 1


    Scripture is inspired, yes and amen, but it is words we read.

    The words that proceed from the mouth of God are the words He speaks to us day by day as part of our LIVING relationship with Him.

    #198299
    Oxy
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ June 19 2010,20:34)
    Hi Oxy:

    Is the bible the Word of God?

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Hi Marty, I know that everyone calls the Bible the Word of God, but God Himself taught me differently. There are a few things that need to be considered.
    1. There is not one Scripture in all the Bible that specifically calls the Bible the Word.
    2. The Word of God was in the beginning with God and was God.
    3. The Word of God was made flesh
    4. THE Word of God indicates only one, the word THE being singular.
    5. Jesus NEVER referred to Scrpture as the Word. He called them Scrptures, the words of God or “It is written”
    6. If faith comes by hearing the Word and the Word is Scripture, why doesn't it say reading? What it actually means is that faith comes by HEARING.. in other words faith comes when the Word (Jesus) speaks to you.

    My personal experience is that since God gave me this understanding it has greatly enhanced the meaning of Scripture to me and also revolutionised my relationship with Jesus.

    #198411
    RokkaMan
    Participant

    So in otherwords brother Oxy, The bible is certainly NOT The Word of God.

    It is THE INSPIRED WORDS OF GOD…The Law, Prohpechy, and work of God that REVEALS The Word of God that is Christ Jesus.

    EVERYTHING in the bible was leading to Jesus.

    The Word of God in fact is God himself, and the bible are his inspired words written by man to reveal himself unto mankind.

    #198413
    RokkaMan
    Participant

    Quote (RokkaMan @ June 19 2010,17:28)

    Quote (942767 @ June 19 2010,17:03)
    Hi RM:

    When you speak, it your word coming from you.  If someone, obeys what you say, does that make that person you or do does he through obedience to your commandments reflect your character?

    God spoke in the OT to many such as Adam, to Noah, to Enoch, to the Pharaoh through Moses, to Moses, to Israel through Moses, through the prophets to Israel, to Nebuchadnezzar, and lastly he has spoken to humanity through His Only Begotten Son.  Does the fact that God has spoken (the Word of God) through these people make them God?

    There is only “One God”, however, Jesus reflects God's perfectly reflects God's character as He relates to humanity.  God not only spoke to humanity through Jesus (it was God speaking (the Word of God)), but Jesus is the only one who obeyed what God was speaking to humanity through him without sin, and so it is written that “he is the express image of his person”.  He is God in this sense, and so he said:  “He who has seen me has seen the Father”.  We have seen the Father through the life that Jesus lived in obedience to the Word of God, and so the scripture also calls Jesus “the Word of God”.

    Now the body of Jesus is God's own “flesh and blood”, but they are not the same person.  They are two distinct individuals.

    Jesus was sent by God, and God has said to us through the Apostle Peter that Jesus is “The Christ, the Son of the Living God”.

    There is “One God, and one mediator between God and man, the man, Christ Jesus”. (1 Ti 2:5)

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Good post and perspective. I agree with your content but not your position. You see your content can support either position, yours or mine…it's a matter of how you apply.

    You see God indeed spoke through many men.

    But which of them has he said, Today I have begotten you?

    Jesus.

    Which of them had a virgin birth?

    Jesus

    Which of them was no sin found

    Jesus

    Which of them is HEIR to everything that is YHVH

    Jesus

    Which of them has the power to save souls?

    Jesus

    Which of them are you allowed to pray to and worship

    Jesus

    Which of them existed before the world was

    Jesus

    Which of them was credited with the creation of everything

    Jesus

    Jesus, Jesus, Jesus and Jesus only.

    He is…The Alpha and Omega…The beginning and the end.

    The Word of God, The Word that was with God, and The Word that IS GOD.

    I agree with your content but not your position.


    Hello 94, I answered your position

    I too believe God is One and only One.

    There is none like him.

    But if that ONE God chose to manifest himself into creation

    that manifestation would be God.

    It doesn't add another number to God or make the manifestation a different ENTITY as God…he's still The one and only God.

    That is what you need to understand…

    ————

    I am not trinitarian, I am not saying Jesus is another God or different God.

    I am saying Jesus is the SAME God manifested as The Son and brought into this world as flesh to die for our sins.

    God was saying he loves us so much he would die for us through Jesus Christ.

    The same way God would appear to OT prophets as THE ANGEL OF THE LORD…the prophets would bow down and worship the angels.

    It was permissible because God chose to manifest himself AS AN ANGEL.

    The physical body was an angel, but the persona THROUGH the angel or spirit IN THE ANGEL was God himself.

    In the same light, THE PHYSICAL BODY OF JESUS was a fleshy man.

    But the SPIRIT IN HIM, was GOD HIMSELF.

    When you talk to me, you don't say I am not RokkaMan because I have a body…you're talking to me, my soul/spirit.

    In the same light is Jesus God…his physical body wasn't God, who he was as a person was God.

    I have another stinger that will further explicitely prove Jesus is God, but i'll address it in another post.

    #198416
    RokkaMan
    Participant

    Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 19 2010,17:56)
    No worries. Something for you to sleep on – if Yeshua and the Father are different manifestations of the same person, why does Yeshua pray to His Father?

    ???


    Because as a man, he was given independant will.

    Remember, Jesus as God had to be like the Dogs he was sent to save.

    So he was humbled to be JUST LIKE US as a man.

    This means he had his own independant will, yet he didn't (paradoxical).

    That is why he was tempted as a man, suffered as a man, lived as a man, and died as a man.

    So that no one can unfairly charge God with making us human and blaming HIM for our sins and giving us independant will.

    So he said, I'll do it myself and become man and undergo everything they undergo.

    So while YHVH The Father held his authority and position in heaven, his manifestation as The Son, took on the role of a man and was subject to sin in which he did not conform.

    Being obedient unto his Godship.

    ————–

    Jesus was fully God, yet fully man.
    The flesh is weak and needs the spirit to direct it.

    If Jesus as man had (subject to sin) The spirit of The Father…his fleshy manly body would continously need to seek strength from his perfect spirit that was he.

    It's the only way man can abstain from sin…is to seek and fellowship with God.

    So Jesus' humbled human manifestation had to be in continous fellowship with his spirit as The Father.

    That is why him being the same being as The Father had to still pray to the spirit to give him strength as a man.

    #198422
    JustAskin
    Participant

    WOW, RM!!

    What you are saying is incredibly Deep!
    Your intellect, very Steep…
    Ha ha! Such rubbish, massive heap
    Out of your senses you leap
    In line with Scriptures I advise you to keep.

    You sticking your neck out, just like a Goose
    Truth or Lie, and which do you choose?
    Call the asylum, madman on the loose!
    Take him away quick, Vamoose…!
    Before he infect me's and you's

    #198423
    RokkaMan
    Participant

    Quote (JustAskin @ June 20 2010,03:50)
    WOW, RM!!

    What you are saying is incredibly Deep!
    Your intellect, very Steep…
    Ha ha! Such rubbish, massive heap
    Out of your senses you leap
    In line with Scriptures I advise you to keep.

    You sticking your neck out, just like a Goose
    Truth or Lie, and which do you choose?
    Call the asylum, madman on the loose!
    Take him away quick, Vamoose…!
    Before he infect me's and you's


    Nice Poem. but you're not saying anything.

    Plenty of evidence points to Jesus being God.
    Plenty of evidence points to him NOT being God.

    I am not trinitarian but I believe it's foolish that one group points to the evidence he is God, and the other points to the fact he is just a man.

    When scripture tells us he's both? lol

    So instead of choosing sides, why not accept both and understand he's God manifested in flesh.

    It seems contradictory to be God and not man and man not God… When it's actually paradoxical.

    In the same breathe, you cannot limit God as a trinity when he's manifested himself more than 3 times.

    God is one, all in all. His manifestation however is many.
    We can identify who is a true manifestation of God when they point us to focus on YHVH The Father instead of pointing us to focus on the manifestation.

    Jesus didn't say focus on me, he said…believe me and focus on YHVH.

    After he ascended, he went back to his original glory as God, but the focus is still on YHVH.

    I always pray to The Father, never to Jesus.
    I come to The Father through Jesus.
    but I know very well who Jesus is.
    And that is The Son of God.

    it's like drawing a cup of water from the ocean.
    The cup of water has Ocean water in it, but it's not the ocean itself.

    In the same way is Jesus God but not YHVH himself.

    #198424
    JustAskin
    Participant

    RM,

    What you are saying boils down to this:

    God created a manifestation of Himself and then made that manifestation the inheritor of His kingdom.

    He gives Himself his kingdom as His own inheritance.

    What was the point? I don't get it.

    And you say that God revealed this to you, directly?

    A Spirit revealed it to you… Test the Spirit!

    #198425
    RokkaMan
    Participant

    Quote (JustAskin @ June 20 2010,04:05)
    RM,

    What you are saying boils down to this:

    God created a manifestation of Himself and then made that manifestation the inheritor of His kingdom.

    He gives Himself his kingdom as His own inheritance.

    What was the point? I don't get it.

    And you say that God revealed this to you, directly?

    A Spirit revealed it to you… Test the Spirit!


    Looks like we posted at the same time.

    Read my above post…it'll explain your question so you can hopefully get it.

    I'll however further elaborate.
    ———-

    The whole point of doing it was for us.

    Because we sinned.

    God cannot be a comforter if there is no pain.

    He can't be a healer if we're not sick (curtesy of SF)

    He cannot be a guide if we're not lost.

    So he cannot be a saviour if we were not in trouble.

    ————-

    So the point of manifesting himself as Jesus was to save us from our sins.

    Then he will give the kingdom to Jesus.

    and when everything is complete, Jesus will then subject himself under the father so that God may be all in all.

    How else do you not understand?

    Ask it and I'll answer.

    Plus the spirit is being tested right now, on these boards.

    So far not one of you can charge against it?

    plus as the spirit revealed, scripture was revealed, that was all the test I needed.

    #198427
    JustAskin
    Participant

    If God revealed this to you then He would also have revealed who are His true servants in this forum.

    The Scriptures does not say, 'who ever believes that God has come in the flesh'. Why not?

    Further more, how can God die? Even a manifestation, how can a manifestation die?

    Always Just Ask: As what did Jesus die, God or Man?

    RM, Can you answer from your revelation from God Himself?

    Even WJ and the stale-wart KJ, could not answer for fear of revealing the ignorance of the Trinity!!!

    #198434
    RokkaMan
    Participant

    Quote (JustAskin @ June 20 2010,04:20)
    If God revealed this to you then He would also have revealed who are His true servants in this forum.

    The Scriptures does not say, 'who ever believes that God has come in the flesh'. Why not?

    Further more, how can God die? Even a manifestation, how can a manifestation die?

    Always Just Ask: As what did Jesus die, God or Man?

    RM, Can you answer from your revelation from God Himself?

    Even WJ and the stale-wart KJ, could not answer for fear of revealing the ignorance of the Trinity!!!


    Yes I can answe you in truth and spirit.

    God is NOT a trinity.

    He cannot be confined into his manifestations.

    He is eternal and infinite.

    ———–
    You say that he would reveal his true servants to me, he has.

    As christians we all grow in spirit and truth.
    No one is a sinner, then immediately becomes a perfect christian. We all grow, develope and mature as christians.

    His true servants on these forums are the ones who seek him in honesty. They look for HIS truth as oppose to their own truths.

    Many of you here are his true servants because you seek HIS truth at the expense of your own.

    If you love your God with all your heart, mind, and soul…and you love your neighbor as you do yourself unto death. You are truly his.

    —————–
    Scripture doesn't tell us to believe God has come in flesh, scripture tells us to believe Jesus is FROM GOD.

    In the same way, if you drew a cup of ocean water from the Ocean, the cup of ocean water is FROM THE OCEAN.

    In our case… YHVH is the Ocean, The cup is Jesus' phsyical Body as a man, and the ocean water is his Godly spirit.

    The cupe of ocean water isn't the Ocean itself, but it certainly COMES FROM THE OCEAN.

    That is the only requisite that bible has concerning Jesus.

    That is why the debate between if Jesus is God or not is meaningless. God doesn't care…both anti-trinitarians and trinitarians at least agree Jesus is from God…and thats all we need to know to be saved. The purpose of understanding he is God, however, is to help you grow and come into full realization of God's sacrifice.
    ————————
    No, God cannot die, but his manifestation as temporary perishable flesh certainly can. And that is exactly what happened. His flesh died.

    The reason it was such a big deal is because he wasn't born of a man. He came from a virgin birth. Because of that he was not heir to Adam's sin. He was heir to God's righteousness and should have ascended into heaven AS A MAN.

    But because God loved us, he allowed him to condemned as a sinner even though no sin was found in him. In doing so, he drew all the sins of the world unto that death, and put sin to death in HIS death. The spirit of God as jesus was then sent to Abraham's Bosom to unlock the gates and create a way for those who believe in him to find their way to Heaven with The Father. He literally created a path to heaven through his death.

    ———-

    I've answered all your questions, do you have anymore?
    ———————

    #198454
    JustAskin
    Participant

    RM,
    You have presented AN answer. Politicians are experts at providing answers that are not answers but only appear that way.

    Additionally, You cannot decide that you have answered me.
    What you should say us, 'Have I answered you, to your satisfaction?'

    Then I say, 'yeh', or ,'neh'.

    As what did Jesus die, God or Man?

    Was Jesus Man or was he God?

    There is no such thing as a God-Man.

    Not a single word of Scriptures alludes to such a being. Or else show me what the delusional spirit put into your mind to show that…

    Besides, what does the Scriptures say about concerning God and His [Manifestation], 'For us there is ONE GOD, the Father, and ONE Lord, the MAN Jesus Christ'
    And also, among many others, (Ephesians 4:13), “till we come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a Perfect Man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.”

    And also, if Jesus did not die, except his flesh died, then what need was there for God raising up his flesh body. After all, even angels can create flesh and bone bodies!

    Corinthians 15:45~49, …the last Adam (man created sinless) … The 'heavenly MAN', not 'God'…

    And your ocean analogy doesn't hold water…

    If Jesus is the cup then and the cup is his physical body…that would mean that his 'cup'/Physical body holds the full ocean seeing that God 'Scooped' up the Holy Spirit into Jesus…'without measure'.
    Besides, the whole analogy was jibberish to start with. Which muddy stream did you dredge that up from?

    1 John 4: 1~… Read it…
    You say that Jesus is God…come in the flesh…??
    Nowhere in Scriptures does it say that God came in the flesh but yet You say so.

    GOD came in the flesh (False)
    Jesus came in the flesh (True)
    Therefore Jesus is God…(False and True = False)

    #198469
    Oxy
    Participant

    Quote (RokkaMan @ June 20 2010,04:29)
    So in otherwords brother Oxy, The bible is certainly NOT The Word of God.

    It is THE INSPIRED WORDS OF GOD…The Law, Prohpechy, and work of God that REVEALS The Word of God that is Christ Jesus.

    EVERYTHING in the bible was leading to Jesus.

    The Word of God in fact is God himself, and the bible are his inspired words written by man to reveal himself unto mankind.


    Pretty much on the same page with you there, but the Word became flesh as you know, and has been raised up and given all authority by the Father and when all is done He will hand that back to the Father, so yes He (the Word) is God and is with God as it was in the beginning, in accordance with His prayer in John 17.5

    #198473
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Oxy,
    The testimony of Jesus [word] is the Spirit of prophecy.[Rev19]
    The Spirit is what gives life through the testimony.
    The Spirit of Christ is of God.

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