John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 2,621 through 2,640 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #131412
    Cindy
    Participant

    Quote (Gene @ May 22 2009,01:14)
    Kerwin………..I do get your point and agree with it , that all are now created new in Christ Jesus. The point i was making is as you say the word through can be translated (FOR) or (BY) as easily as (THROUGH). Your point is well made, and that being, that we are being created a New through Christ Jesus. Good Post. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours……………………gene


    Gen and kerwin Are you not now interpreting the Scripture in order to make it what you (plural) want it to be.
    John 1:3 All things were made through Him and without Him nothing was made that was made.
    If one is in doubt what through means in this case, then you should look at other Scriptures to prove the point. Like
    Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    verse 16 For by Him all things are created, that are on earth and that is in Heaven………..
    verse 17 And He is before all things…..
    verse 18 He is also the firstborn of the dead, so in all things He will have preeminence.
    If you do not know what preeminence means, it means first in all.
    Rev. 3:14…. These things says the Amen,the Faithful and true Witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.
    Proverb 8;22 ” The Lord possessed Me at the beginning of His way. Before His works of old.
    ” I have been established from everlasting,
    FROM THE BEGINNING BEFORE THERE WAS EVER AN EARTH.
    WHEN THERE WAS NO DEPTHS I WAS BROUGHT FORTH.

    It goes on like that for some verses. Some might want to say that it is wisdom , which is ridiculous IMO. Wisdom God always had, it was not born.
    Does it not say in Gen. let us make man in our image..So who is us? To many Scriptures to interpret another way. Also He was the Spokesperson for God, cause nobody has seen the Father or heard His voice.
    Peace and Love to you both Irene

    #131416
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (Gene @ May 21 2009,02:36)
    thinker………..all things were created by Him (GOD ALMIGHTY) Just as written in Isaiah and by himself and alone with no body else around but Himself. John 1:1 Is not talking about Jesus or John would have said Jesus, he know how to write His name if that is what He meant to say He would have just said it. Trinitarians force the text to try to make their case for supporting their theologies, rather then taking the text for what it is saying without changes the wording to trying to imply a different meaning to it. Like is said before Jesus is one of Us (HUMANS) not of the GOD CLASS. There is ONLY (ONE) TRUE GOD as Jesus said. For (THOU) srt the (ONLY) TRUE GOD. Don't believe me Thinker believe Jesus. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours brother………………gene


    Gene,
    The narrative clearly and unequivocally asserts that all things were created by “HIM” which is the Word. Then verse 14 says that the Word became flesh. The Father did not become flesh. Non personal “intelligence” did not become flesh. Come on bro! It's back to the drawing board for you  :cool:

    thinker

    #131423
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (thethinker @ May 22 2009,02:41)

    Quote (Gene @ May 21 2009,02:36)
    thinker………..all things were created by Him (GOD ALMIGHTY) Just as written in Isaiah and by himself and alone with no body else around but Himself. John 1:1 Is not talking about Jesus or John would have said Jesus, he know how to write His name if that is what He meant to say He would have just said it. Trinitarians force the text to try to make their case for supporting their theologies, rather then taking the text for what it is saying without changes the wording to trying to imply a different meaning to it. Like is said before Jesus is one of Us (HUMANS) not of the GOD CLASS. There is ONLY (ONE) TRUE GOD as Jesus said. For (THOU) srt the (ONLY) TRUE GOD. Don't believe me Thinker believe Jesus. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours brother………………gene


    Gene,
    The narrative clearly and unequivocally asserts that all things were created by “HIM” which is the Word. Then verse 14 says that the Word became flesh. The Father did not become flesh. Non personal “intelligence” did not become flesh. Come on bro! It's back to the drawing board for you  :cool:

    thinker


    I think Gene is stating you are taking the scripture too literally as became flesh could mean going from the drawing board into implemented. I could be wrong because that may have been someone else's argument.

    #131425
    Cindy
    Participant

    Kerwin both you and Gen have very convinently ignored my last post. The thinker is right. If the Word would be intellect. Then the Father became a man. And we know that is not the case.
    Irene

    #131431
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Irene……….Do you believe what Jesus said (He could do nothing of Himself) The Father in me (HE) doth the works, so How could Jesus have created anything, Much less the entire universe and all that is in it. Since God said he did it (ALONE and BY HIMSELF) What don't you understand about that? IS it true or not. ONLY GOD HIMSELF CAN CREATE. We are His creation and so is Jesus. You still have not completely removed yourself from the APOSTATE CHURCH TEACHINGS completely Yet. IMO

    peace and love to you and Georg………………………gene

    #131434
    Cindy
    Participant

    Gen So you are denying what Scriptures says? Jesus created everything LIKE SCRIPTURE SAYS BY THE POWER OF THE Father. What always makes me sad, that you cannot restrain yourself to make unneccecary remarks. Sorry, but there are to many Scriptures for me to deny them. Whatever you want to believe, you will, I just know that. Just like there is no Demons or Satan.
    Irene

    #131436
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2009,18:36)

    Quote (gollamudi @ May 21 2009,12:43)
    Yes brother Kerwin.
    God created everything through His word in the beginning and now that word became flesh(Jesus) so now He creates everything through Jesus. Therefore it is said “If anyone is in Christ he is a new creation” (2 Cor 5:17). What is wrong in brother Gene's words as per the creation which God did in the beginning ?


    I am defending my previous statement and not saying Gene is wrong in anything beyond where he seems to doubt that statement.  

    I am not sure of his argument about “through” but I did not disagree with it since I do not know what it is.  I did point that arguments about the definition of words do not settle anything by themselves.


    Thanks brother Kerwin for such agreement. I believe God uses Jesus just like He used Adam to multiply the mortal human race. I mean God creates the new race spiritual and immortals through Jesus by spiritual birth and resurrection. Please see these verses in 1Cor 15:
    44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual one.
    45 So, too, it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living being,” the last Adam a life-giving spirit.
    46 But the spiritual was not first; rather the natural and then the spiritual.
    47 The first man was from the earth, earthly; the second man, from heaven.
    48 As was the earthly one, so also are the earthly, and as is the heavenly one, so also are the heavenly.
    49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthly one, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly one.

    See the anology of Adam(mortal/natural man) and Christ(immortal/spiritual man).

    Peace to you
    Adam

    #131438
    kerwin
    Participant

    Irene wrote:

    Quote

    Kerwin both you and Gen have very convinently ignored my last post.

    I did not ignore your post.  I put it off to a more convenient time so I could study  the scriptures you referred to and hopefully give you a more thought out post.

    Irene wrote:

    Quote

    If the Word would be intellect then the Father became a man.

    I do certainly not understand your reasoning there but I do not agree with Gene that Word means intellect either.   It could very well mean Word of God or perhaps Purpose of God is a better way of putting it.   John is just making the case that God has had a purpose from the beginning and that that purpose was implemented in Jesus the Anointed one.  Other scripture tells us that anyways but then it is not uncommon for ideas to be repeated multiple times in scripture with different words and from different perspectives.  Gene calls that purpose intellect which is confusing at best and misleading at worse and it seems the ideas in John 1 are difficult to understand as it is.

    As regards Col. 1:15

    Jesus certainly is the firstborn of the new creation but not the old which is perishing.  Other scriptures make that quite plain.  The new creation of which Jesus is the firstborn is superior to the old creation of which Adam is the firstborn.

    1 Corinthians 15:20-23(NIV) reads:

    Quote

    But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him

    About Rev. 3:14

    Revelations 3:14(NIV) reads:

    Quote

    “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
         These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.”

    As you can see there is a difference in translations.  Offhand I would guess the Greek word probably means “leader” as that is a word which can be interpreted to be a synonym for either word it was translated to in the various translations and translator bias decided the conundrum when translating.  I did not check a Greek Lexicon to test my hypothesis.

    Addressing Proverb 8:22

    So are you proposing that Jesus equals the personification of Wisdom?  I ask this because the scripture you quoted is speaking about wisdom and wisdom is God’s Word as Jesus is the fulfillment of that word but that does not make him wisdom no more than it makes the bible Jesus.

    Irene wrote:

    Quote

    It goes on like that for some verses. Some might want to say that it is wisdom, which is ridiculous IMO. Wisdom God always had, it was not born.

    That may be why “everlasting” was used by your chosen translators with “beginning” being just a relative terms in this case.  “Born” is figurative in that at some time God had his first thought, if God had a beginning, and that was the birth of Wisdom.

    Irene wrote:

    Quote

    Also He was the Spokesperson for God, cause nobody has seen the Father or heard His voice.

    You are taking that scripture too literally when Jesus often chose to speak figuratively.  We have documentation that state that Satan, angels, and even demons converse with God, and are even in his presence, so Jesus was not speaking literally.  I would have to know which scripture you are referring to know exactly what Jesus meant but in general I would say he was saying is the only way to reach God as God has chosen to live in Jesus through the Holy Spirit and will continue to do so for eternity.

    #131439
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Kerwin……….You misrepresent what i said a word is, I said a word is the (EXPRESSION) OF (INTELLECT) . No where does scripture disagree with that, because that is exactly what (A) word is, John 1:1 is not using the word (WORD) as a separate being but an attribute of a BEING and that being is GOD, in the beginning GOD Spoke (which is WORDS) THINGS INTO BEING, as Genesis plainly says. I notice you frequently misrepresent (exactly what i say). Would appreciate a little more accuracy.

    peace and love……………….gene

    #131440
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (Gene @ May 22 2009,15:52)
    Irene……….Do you believe what Jesus said (He could do nothing of Himself) The Father in me (HE) doth the works, so How could Jesus have created anything, Much less the entire universe and all that is in it. Since God said he did it (ALONE and BY HIMSELF) What don't you understand about that? IS it true or not. ONLY GOD HIMSELF CAN CREATE. We are His creation and so is Jesus. You still have not completely removed yourself from the APOSTATE CHURCH TEACHINGS completely Yet. IMO

    peace and love to you and Georg………………………gene


    Gene,
    Jesus said that he could do nothing of Himself when he was in his state of humiliation. He has since been glorified and exalted. He has returned to the glory He had with the Father before the world began.

    Quote
    Father, glorify me with the glory I had together with you before the world began (John 17:5)

    As an illustration let's suppose that a sergeant in the military has orders he has to follow. He says, “I can do nothing of myself. I am duty bound to a higher authority”. But later on that sergeant is promoted up to the next rank. As time goes on he is exalted to five star general.

    After the sergeant is exalted to the highest rank in the military the statement “I can co nothing of myself” no longer applies. Jesus EARNED the rank he presently enjoys. He calls all the shots now. The statement “I can do nothing of myself” no longer applies because it was said when He was just a “sergeant.” But He is LORD now.

    Quote
    He became obedient to death, even the death of the cross. Therefore, God has highly exalted Him and has given Him a name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should BOW. And every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ IS LORD to the glory of God the Father.

    You are not using common sense. You take statements Jesus made BEFORE He was exalted and apply them after He was exalted.

    thinker

    #131442
    Cindy
    Participant

    kerwin Thank for your reply to my post. I do agree that Jesus is the first fruit of the dead.
    Col. 1:18 states that too. It also states that He is the first also of all creation in verse 15. not of the new creation. Here the NIV states the same then all other version of the Bible that He was the firstborn of all creation.
    verse 18 it says in the NIV so that in all He might have Supremacy. In the King James it says He has preeminence in all, meaning first in all.
    John 1:3 states that all was made by Him, and without Him nothing that was made.
    Rev. 3: 14 in all Bibles except the NIV it says ……” These says the Amen the Faithful and True Witness, the beginning of all creation of God.

    We were told that ” The Rye Study Bible and the New King James version of the Bible ” are the closest to the Greek and Hebrew language.
    I want to also put this down
    John 17:5 ” AND NOW O FATHER, GLORIFY ME TOGETHER WITH YOURSELF, WITH THE GLORY WHICH I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.”

    kerwin if I were you I would get myself another Bible to study with. My Husband does agree with this and has found several differences in the NIV of the Bible. That is why we study in the King James Bibles. We also have a Hebrew Bible that our Grandson gave us, but you have to know Hebrew, which we don't.
    To me there are more then one Scripture that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation.
    Believe me it was hard to believe this. When one of the J.W. told us about this years ago, I told Him that He was crazy. Well God did not leave us in that belief.
    We come out of the Catholic Church into the W.W.Church of God were we really studied the Bible. Of cause they two had errors in what they believed, so now we do not go to any Church. We found out that all have errors in their believes. Most belief in the trinity Doctrine, IMO is wrong.
    Peace and Love Irene

    #131453
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Gene @ May 22 2009,20:57)
    Kerwin……….You misrepresent what i said a word is, I said a word is the (EXPRESSION) OF (INTELLECT) . No where does scripture disagree with that, because that is exactly what (A) word is, John 1:1 is not using the word (WORD) as a separate being but an attribute of a BEING and that being is GOD, in the beginning GOD Spoke (which is WORDS) THINGS INTO BEING, as Genesis plainly says. I notice you frequently misrepresent (exactly what i say). Would appreciate a little more accuracy.  

    peace and love……………….gene


    As I said previously your point about intellect is confusing.

    #131476
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Kerwin……… What confusing about it. How much plainer can one GET. (A WORD) IS AN EXPRESSION OF INTELLECT, cant get more simpler then that, that is a basic and a fundamental fact. If that is in error please explain what a (WORD) is then. Saying something is confusing when it is not is deceptive. IMO

    peace and love…………………………gene

    #131486
    kingdsingh
    Participant

    Hi Everyone,
    I am King Dhanasingh from India.

    #131487
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Hi King Dhanasingh,
    You are welcome to the wonderful family of Heavennet. Here you will meet many brothers and sisters from different parts of the world believing in different doctrines. I am happy to enroll one more brother from India.

    Peace to you
    Adam

    #131494
    Cindy
    Participant

    Welcome Kingdhanasingh, where in Indiana do you live?  We live in Cincinnati, Ohio.  You will see either Georg or Irene posting, so please pay attention to the Signature. I will sign this way..
    Peace and Love Irene

    #131498
    Cindy
    Participant

    GD Where in India do you live?
    Irene

    #131499
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Kingdhanasingh……….Welcome to the site, Our brother Adam is also from India as you probably already know, Hope you give and get many uplifting and edifying posts here.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene

    #131598
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (kingdsingh @ May 23 2009,20:14)
    Hi Everyone,
    I am King Dhanasingh from India.


    Greetings friend and welcome. I am from the state of Maryland in the east coast USA. We look forward to hearing your views.

    thinker

    #131599
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (Gene @ May 23 2009,15:30)
    Kerwin……… What confusing about it. How much plainer can one GET. (A WORD) IS AN EXPRESSION OF INTELLECT, cant get more simpler then that, that is a basic and a fundamental fact. If that is in error please explain what a (WORD) is then.  Saying something is confusing when it is not is deceptive. IMO

    peace and love…………………………gene


    Gene,
    Your “intellect” theory is confusing because it makes the Word non-personal. Don't you get it?

    thinker

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