John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 24,501 through 24,520 (of 25,998 total)
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  • #944234
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    Isa.42
    [1] Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth;

    And your question is when did God’s “soul” delight in Israel/Jacob.

    The first part that has to be answered is who is “mine elect” or “my chosen”? According to Strong’s 972 “bachir” means chosen and other word usages are “chosen one” and “elect.” “Bachir” comes from the root “bachar” which means to select – choose, chosen one, elect. So who is God’s chosen?

    Deut 7:6 “For you are a holy people for Yahweh your God; Yahweh your God has chosen you to be for him a people, a treasured possession from among all the peoples that are on the face of the earth.” Who’s God’s chosen?

    Deut 14:2 “ For you are a people holy to Yahweh your God, and you Yahweh has chosen to be a treasured possession from among all of the peoples that are on the surface of the earth.” So God has repeated himself.

    I Kings 3:8 “Your servant is in the middle of your people whom you have chosen; a great people who cannot be counted or numbered because of abundance.” Solomon identifies who God has chosen for HIS people.

    I Chron 16:13 “O offspring of Israel, his servant, O sons of Jacob, his chosen ones”! Did David identify Israel as God’s servant and HIS chosen?!?!

     

    The second part seems you are hung up on the “soul” of God delighting in Israel; are you saying God doesn’t “delight” in his chosen? Define “soul.”

    Num 14:8 “If Yahweh delights in us, then he will bring us into this land, and he will give it to us, a land that is flowing with milk and honey.” Since Israel took possession of the land promised, apparently God did “delight” in them.

    Isa 62:4 “ It shall no longer be said of you, “Forsaken,” and it shall no longer be said of your land, “Desolation!” but you will be called “My Delight Is In Her,” and your land, “Married,” for Yahweh delights in you, and your land shall be married.” Note the singular usage of “you” in reference to Israel; but God’s “delight is in her.”

    Zeph 3:17 “ The LORD your God is in your midst; he is a warrior who can deliver. He takes great delight in you; he renews you by his love; he shouts for joy over you.” Not only does God delight; but renews and shouts for joy, over whom?

    Before you ask these types of questions, go verify the answer for yourself first.

    #944235
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth……..where did Paul ever say “everything written in the New Testament must be found in the Old Testament at, I never recall reading that.   As far a Jonah goes Jesus simply compared his time in the grave to the time Jonah was in the belly of the whale,  he never said it was a prophesy about him. I know Paul said what they were hearing should Aline with the Old Testament writings, but that is not the same as saying they must all be prophesied in the Old Testament First before they can be true.  The Old Testament give many places where Jesus was shown to be a servant of God,  Isaiah is just one book among other’s that point to Jesus as a “suffering” servant. , what about Psa 14:10. And what about  Isiah 9:6……> For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given,  and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name “Shall be” (future tense),  Called Wonderful Counsellor, the mighty one, the everlasting Father: the prince of Peace.  So who is this talking about, it sure I sent Israel now is it?

    Desire truth, your lack of knowledge about the corruption of kingdom of Israel and the kingdom of Judah, has caused you to stumble I think brother.

    peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth…………gene

    #944236
    Nick
    Participant

    Those who love the Word and know it is God speaking through many frail human vessels recognise the sound of a wolf ,whose only interest is fault finding, casting doubt  and tearing down beauty so they can elevate themselves above the work of God.

    #944237
    Nick
    Participant

    God does not serve the grammar expectations of men.

    He is Spirit and his words are spiritual words.

    Fools apply weak human measures to them and fail to grasp them.

    #944256
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Sorry, but you are reaching to validate what you cannot or will not answer and trying to justify it away.

    You: where did Paul ever say “everything written in the New Testament must be found in the Old Testament”

    Me: Not speaking of everything written; just when Paul said “according to scripture”, this really isn’t that hard. The OT is what the apostles “taught” from and where the Berean’s went to “confirm” what Paul said. Which is the very thing I am doing, confirming what Paul said was “according to scripture” and am being ridiculed for doing it. How dare I question the great and mighty Paul, right!

    You: “The Old Testament give many places where Jesus was shown to be a servant of God” and “a ‘suffering’ servant.”

    Me: List them.

    I have already spoken on Isa 9:6 (link). Never read just one verse, read the surrounding verses; context is the key to understanding.

    You: “your lack of knowledge about the corruption of kingdom of Israel and the kingdom of Judah, has caused you to stumble”

    Me: My “lack of knowledge”; then educate me, I’ll listen; but be prepared to actually answer questions.

    #944257
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth…….There are so many scriptures that show how Israel and Judah forsook God all the way through the Old  Testament , I could fill a complete book of places it show that they were unfaithful servants and where God rejected them time and time again,  even divorced Israel,  the Book of Jeremiah shows how Israel forsook God and even said Judah was worse then her sister Israel.
    To save time , just show us one verse that says that the nation of Israel and the nation of Judah were any kind of suffering servants of God .  You are saying to us because the scripture call Jacob, who name was changed to Israel, is meaning the nation of Israel as a whole, where is you proof of that at?  Abraham, Issac, and Jacob/Israel,  were indeed servants of God. But there descendants sure weren’t,  that is a well established fact in all the Old Testament scriptures.

    You  trying to make a statement that Nation of Israel was the “suffering servant” of God, does not fit any of the Old Testament scriptures at all about them. You can’t produced a single scripture showing them ever “suffering”  for God, as a “suffering servant”, of his,  in any scripture.  if it is there, then it is incumbent upon you to prove it, by any example found in our text.

    The true”suffering servants”,  were the Prophets God sent to the nations of Israel, and. Judah,  that testified against them because of their “unfaithfulness,” to him.  To say they were a “suffering servant”, Is a joke at best.  Remember it is the Sum of Gods word that counts, not a little cherry picking here and there right?   Desire Truth, you need to produce other scriptures that show Israel as some kind of “suffering servant”,  of God. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth……….gene

    #944258
    Nick
    Participant

    How dare you challenge the Spirit that spoke and worked through Paul.

    Do you not fear God?

    #944259
    Berean
    Participant

    @desire Truth

    Isaiah 53:9

    And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; 👉because he had done no violence, 👉neither was any deceit in his mouth.

    This is the case for Jesus.

    Is this the case for Israel?

    #944265
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    You still haven’t read a thing I have said.

    First, the term/name/phrase “suffering servant” is found NOWHERE in the bible. This term/name/phrase is man made to create a title for this chapter in Isaiah. So the only thing to be understood in this chapter is God’s “servant”, not “suffering servant.”

    Second, I have asked you who is speaking where starting in chapter 52:13 thru 53:12 and I have gotten no definitive answer, just maybe’s and could be’s. If you don’t know who is speaking where or apply the wrong speaker, you will NEVER understand what is actually being said. Then to say the prophets are the “suffering servants”, doesn’t fit the context of the verses. This section in Isaiah is about the restoration of Israel and chapter 53 falls in the middle of it.

    Third, what I have said all along it’s the nations who are speaking about Israel in 53:1-9 and it is the nations who caused Israel to suffer. It is the nations who are taking responsibility for their excessive abuse of Israel.
    While Israel was in exile, explain Zechariah chapter 1 focus on verse 15 where we are told God is angry at the nations because they “they combined to attack her for evil”, “they helped forward the affliction”, “ they furthered disaster”, “ they added to the calamity”. What is being conveyed in Zechariah? Could it be, even though God sent them into captivity because of disobedience, the nations oppressed them more than they should have? Am I seeing a parallel between Zechariah and Isaiah?

    Fourth, are you going to say Israel hasn’t suffered greatly at the hands of other nations throughout history!?

    You mention “cherry picking”, the four “servant songs” are obviously about God’s “servant” and there is no one who will dispute that. God is speaking of the same “servant” in all “songs”; God never flip-flop between Israel and Jesus as is taught in Christianity. The dispute is who it is; and Christianity says one thing and Judaism says another. The big HOWEVER is the second “song” explicitly states the “servant” is Israel; so by reason of deduction the “servant” is the same in all the “songs.” Read Isa 49:6; did Jesus reestablish the tribes of Jacob, restore the remnant of Israel? Nope, he told his disciples to, “go and make disciples of all the nations.”

    Take off you “Jesus goggles” and read the words. Separate the OT from the NT and quit trying to merge what cannot be merged.

    #944266
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Desire truth,

    O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken. Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?

    Them beginning with Moses and with all the prophets he explained to them the things concerning himself in all the scriptures.

    lk 24.25

    You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about me: and you are unwilling to come to me so that you may have life.

    I do not receive glory from men, but I know you that you do not have the love of God in yourselves.

    Jn 5.39+

    Believe in God. Believe also in me.

     

    You deny the Spirit in Paul because he opposed your legalism. I strongly suspect you do not believe in the Christ either.

    #944267
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Nick,

    I need you to focus like a laser beam on what I am going to show you; then grab your favorite bible and verify it for yourself.

    Rom 10:5-8

    5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”– that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

    Verify the references in your bible, but they point to Deut 30:12,14

    Deut 30:11-14

    11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 “It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it? 13 “Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14 “But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.

    Paul is quoting the Deuteronomy passage; did you notice anything particularly different about what Paul says verses what Moses said? Remember Paul is quoting Moses who is considered the “greatest” prophet in Judaism. What did Paul do to Moses’ words?

    Moses is talking about the commandments God gave to the Israelite’s; Paul takes Moses’ words and applies them to faith saying “who will ascend into heaven” and then twists Moses’ analogy by inserting “bring Christ down.”

    Moses makes another analogy about going across the sea to find God commandments; what does Paul do, strips it out and inserts “descend into the abyss” “to bring Christ up from the dead.” This is okay with you?! But Paul doesn’t stop there!

    Moses then tells the people God’s commands are near because they are “in your mouth and in your heart”, these commands are near you that you many observe them. These God given commands are apart of them. Paul then goes on to say the “word” is “the word of faith” completely taking out of context what Moses said and becomes obvious why he cuts off “that you may observe it” since Moses told them to observe God’s commandments.

    Looks to me like Paul was cutting up God’s word given through Moses concerning the commandments God gave to the Israelite’s. This manipulation of the OT in the NT is everywhere and if anyone would bother to verify what they are told is truth, you would see the same thing I now am. If this isn’t an issue for you, enjoy your religion.

    You then mention “legalism”; are you saying legalism is something imprinted on your heart by God?

    #944268
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Desire,

    Understand that the anointed sons of God in Christ Jesus explain and interpret the OT.

    No one except fools can dare judge the Lord Jesus (who is Lord of all ) and those joined to him.

    Remove the blindness and awaken to life.

     

    #944269
    Nick
    Participant

    So what the Jewish people claimed to see in the OT words was revealed by the anointed man Paul to have a deeper spiritual meaning.  Perhaps you need to listen to the words of the Spirit and seek the anointing yourself.

     

    #944270
    Nick
    Participant

    The book of Romans was written to new Jewish converts who were vacillating and tempted to go back to reliance on obedience to the Law in the vain hope of salvation through that.

    Chapter 10  shows them how close they are as Jews,  and that all they need is faith in the intermediary appointed by God, Jesus Christ.

    Perhaps you find yourself in the same parlous position.

    #944271
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Nick,
    You: “Understand that the anointed sons of God in Christ Jesus explain and interpret the OT.”

    Me: Are we to just accept their interpretations as being truth or do we verify what they’re saying against what the OT actually says? Is there an amount of “twisting” of God’s words that is acceptable?

    Anyways, what you’re saying is you have no idea how to respond to what I wrote about Paul twisting the words of Moses; however, judging by the lack of what you wrote, you have no problem with it. Absolutely stunned!

    #944272
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Desire,

    I realise that you have no faith in Jesus and in his Anointing as the Christ.

    Overconfidence in your limited understanding of the Law too robs you of the life God offers you in His Son and causes you to fall back on your own instincts. You seek others to join in your walk towards spiritual death.

    #944273
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Desire,

    You have found that there are apparent inconsistencies in your mind between the OT and the NT.  Since both are written by the Spirit through men then the answer should be obvious.

    Seek the Spirit in the way Scripture advises and shop relying on your carnal mind to provide answers. Submit your mind to the Spirit and God will renew it according to truth.

    Be transformed by the renewal of your mind.

     

     

    #944284
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Nick,

    So far you have offered nothing to this conversation, other than accusations and condemnation; none of which answer any of the questions I’ve asked. I asked one primary question, Paul said “according to scripture” the Messiah was to die for the sins of mankind, be buried and raised up on the third day. This means it is written in the OT; find both of those statements written by a prophet or someone in the OT. IF neither of these statements are written in the OT, what does that mean to you? Are we to ignore his claim because Paul was “inspired by the Spirit”? The Spirit isn’t going to give out unverifiable information; yet, Paul has given us an unverifiable claim, so how can this have come from the Spirit.

    You never addressed the Romans/Deuteronomy comparison, the “vacillating Jew” doesn’t validate why Paul butchered the Deuteronomy passage and twisted into to mean something he wanted it to mean. Moses never spoke of a Jesus figure when telling the nation God imprinted HIS commandments on their hearts. Explain why Paul had to make Moses’ words about Jesus when that wasn’t the original intent.

    Explain Isa 42:8 when compared to John 13:31-32; Matt 16:27; Mark 8:38; Luke 9:26. God gives his glory to no one, but what did Jesus ask for? God also says, HE doesn’t share HIS praise with idols; how often is it said in churches today “thank you Jesus”, “praise Jesus.” The Catholic church prays to Mary and the Apostles…WHAT!! The Christian church has symbols of the cross everywhere that people bow before. Something is amiss; did our unchanging God, change and when?

    Once you finished explaining that away, open up to Zech 14:16 and explain how all the nation who came against Jerusalem will now “go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.” I thought the nations in this great battle were to be destroyed and cast into the Lake of Fire…“inconsistencies in my mind”?!??!?

    It’s starting to make more sense why the church today doesn’t encourage people to study the OT and why the primary focus in on the NT.

    #944286
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Desire,

    Paul is a proven anointed servant of God in Christ.

    So what are your qualifications that enable you to judge him and his words?

    #944287
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Nick,

    Why are you so afraid to answer my questions?

     

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