Home Christian Writings Is Hell eternal? Page 19

Is Hell eternal?

Hell Fire

Part 01 – Is Hell eternal?
Part 02 – Scriptures used to support an eternal Hell
Part 03 – New Testament scriptures that dispel an eternal Hell
Part 04 – Old Testament scriptures that dispel an eternal Hell
Part 05 – Other resources about Hell

This page will let scripture answer the most common questions on this topic. Following that, we will look at scriptures that are used to support the idea of an eternal Hell to get a balanced view. The last two pages will take a more substantial look at scriptures that talk about the wicked and their fate.

Will the wicked perish?

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

2 Peter 2:12
But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

In order to understand the word ‘perish’, how is this word used in other biblical topics?

Hebrews 1:10-12
10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.

Colossians 2:21-22 21
21 Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”?
22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings.

Will the wicked be destroyed?

Matthew 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Philippians 3:19
Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

How is the word ‘destruction’ used in other biblical topics?

1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

How will the wicked be destroyed?

2 Peter 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Luke 17:28-30
28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.

The wicked are cast into hell, but isn’t Hell eternal?

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hell were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Revelation 21:8
“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.“

So there will be no eternal suffering in hell?

Romans 6:23
“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord”

Revelation 21:4
He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

So the wicked will cease to exist?

Psalms 104:35
“Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.”

Psalms 37:10
“For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.”

Adam came to life when he became a living soul, but can a man lose his soul?

Mark 8:36
What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul?

1 Peter 1:9
for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

But isn’t the human soul immortal?

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in Hell.

Genesis 3:21-24
22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Are you sure that the wicked will be completely consumed or burned up though?

Psalms 37:20
“But the wicked will perish: Though the Lord’s enemies are like the flowers of the field, they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.”

Malachi 4:1
“For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.”

Does God want to destroy the wicked?

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn from your evil ways!

2 Peter 3:9
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

Will sin ever happen again once all the wicked are destroyed?

1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Luke 20:35-36
But those who are considered worthy to share in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage. In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God.

We know that sin causes death and we will no longer die because sin has been dealt with.

1 Corinthians 15:54-55
54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 55 “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?”

When will the wicked be completely destroyed?

Matthew 13:40
“As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world/age.“

2 Peter 3:10.
“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”

Okay so wicked men will be destroyed along with the old creation, but what about Satan?

Hebrews 2:14
“Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;“

Ezekiel 28:18
“Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.”

The last verse may be referring to a man instead of Satan, however we know that the Devil will be destroyed from the previous verse above.

After reading this page you may argue that I have given scripture, but not all of it. There are of course other verses that seem to teach an eternal hell or eternal suffering for the wicked. The next page will cover these scriptures to provide a balanced view. The last two pages in this study will list the most prominent verses in the Bible that teach that the wicked will be destroyed, perish, and die. There will be many more verses than quoted on this page and they are divided into Old and New Testament verses. These pages will be useful if you wish to study in more depth what scripture says about the fate of the wicked.

Discussion

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  • March 19, 2015 at 9:57 pm#791053
    Miia
    Participant

    t8 wrote

    Some people believe the following which I also believe.

    Death and Hades is thrown into the Lake of Fire yes, but not the righteous for the following reason.

    Hades was once divided into two. The righteous part (where Abraham was) and the wicked part. The two were divided by a deep chasm of some kind, as described by Jesus in one of his stories.

    When Jesus rose from the dead, he preached to the dead and with the keys of Death and Hades he proclaimed victory over death. He then took with him the righteous to be with him. Now when the righteous die, they are with the Lord and they precede those who will be taken up in the hour that no man knows. And where is the Lord now? He is not in Hades, but at the right-hand of the Majesty on High.

    Thus Abraham’s bosom is no longer, leaving only the wicked in Hades. In fact we are told that Hades is expanding.

    Isaiah 5:14
    Therefore Sheol has enlarged its throat and opened its mouth without measure;

    Matthew 27
    51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.
    52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
    53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.…

    Further, Hades and Death are thrown into the Lake of Fire. We are explicitly told by our brother Peter, that the heavens and earth as well as the wicked are destroyed by the judgement of fire. After that will remain only that which is good. Finally the mission will be complete. What mission? That all will be under Christ and God will be in all, amen. All who love God look forward to that day.

    That sounds true and heaps to think about.

    March 19, 2015 at 9:57 pm#791054
    carmel
    Participant

     

    HI ALL,

    IT SEEMS TO ME THAT MY POST IS NOT QUITE CLEAR SO I MAKE IT MORE CLEAR I HOPE:

    THE VERY FIRST THING GOD ESTABLISHED WAS

    “THE WORD” AND THE FIRST PHRASE WAS:

    LET THERE BE……

    THOSE WORDS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR OWN SAME WORDS:
    LET THERE BE…!

    AND GOD DECLARED SO
    MY WAYS ARE NOT YOUR WAYS, AND THIS APPLIES IN ALL CIRCUMSTANCES!

    SO GOD’S PHRASE

    LET THERE BE…………

    IT WOULD BE SO, THROUGHOUT WITHOUT ERADICATING THE LEAST DETAIL FROM IT, AND IN THE SAME TIME

    ALL BE TRANSFORMED AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN TILL IT IS GOD’AGAIN

    BUT EVEN MORE GLORIFIED!

    SIMPLY THROUGH “THE WORD” PROCESS!

    THE FACT THAT “THE WORD” PURPOSELY WAS ESTABLISHED FIRST AND FOREMOST!

    DECLARED BY “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, JESUS

    WHATEVER MY FATHER GAVE ME, I WILL LOSE NOTHING! ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

    OBVIOUS ALL ON THE VERY FIRST PHRASE HE PRONOUNCED
    LET THERE BE LUCIFER/ CREATION AND THE EVENTUAL GOD’S KINGDOM THROUGH HIM,TRANSFORMED, THROUGH GOD’S MAJESTY OF BENIGNITY

    SO LUCIFER AS AN ARCHANGEL, WAS THE FIRST EMBODIMENT OF GOD, IS ERADICATED ONLY AS AN ARCHANGEL,  SINCE “THE WORD” WAS WITHIN HIM IN ORDER FOR “THE WORD” TO BE

    THE FIRST BORN OF EVERY CREATURE

    THE ETERNAL LIFE THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE KINGDOM PROCESS

    THE MEDIATOR SPIRIT SLAIN, HIDDEN, WITHIN CREATION REV.13:8 BETWEEN THE ENTIRE CREATION, COMMENCED IN LUCIFER, AND GOD ALMIGHTY!

    AS PAUL DECLARED:

    A MEDIATOR IS BETWEEN TWO,

    BUT SINCE GOD IS ONE, “THE WORD” IS GOD HIMSELF TRANSFORMED AS SUCH BY SIMPLY HIDDEN WITHIN HIS SON

    NOW LUCIFER, AS I SAID THE FIRST EMBODIMENT OF GOD,
    AT THE VERY END HE WOULD BE THE ENTIRE EMBODIMENTS HIMSELF FOR GOD THE FATHER TO BE

    ALL IN ALL

    THE PRODIGAL SON!

    FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT IF LUCIFER, AS A SPIRIT, WOULD BE ERADICATED

    GOD WOULD NEVER IN THE TRUTH BE

    ALL IN ALL

    BUT:
    ALL IN ALL LESS ONE! OR WHAT THE CASE MAY EVENTUALLY BE!

    THE FACT THAT JESUS DECLARED

    LOVE YOUR ENEMY

    TILL THE ENEMY WOULD EVENTUALLY LOVE GOD FOR ETERNITY!

    NOW BACK TO MY POST AGAIN FOR THE LOVE OF JESUS, IN ORDER TO REFLECT UPON AND REALIZE WHY THE SON OF GOD GAVE HIS IMMACULATE FLESH AND BLOOD BODY , ONCE!

    NOT FOR THE HOLY ONES! OK????????????????????

    BUT FOR THE MOST EVIL THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE PROCESS!

    LUCIFER’S/SATAN’S REMNANTS THROUGH ADAM’S.

    US!

    THE FACT THAT GOD PURPOSELY THROUGH THE PROCESS OF “THE WORD”
    CREATED

    THE SOUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    GOD’S SOLE INVESTMENT

    A MEDIATOR SPIRIT BETWEEN THE SPIRIT AND FLESH!

    SO BACK TO MY POST:

    THE PHRASE

    ETERNAL FIRE, AND ALL OTHER SIMILAR PHRASES DO NOT MEAN THAT SOULS WOULD BE ERADICATED, OR NEVER BE RELEASED FROM HELL!

    THE FACT THAT HELL DEFINITELY ENDS SINCE IT WOULD BE OF NO USE!

    THE WORD ” ETERNAL” IS A REFERENCE TO GOD!

    THE FACT THAT GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE, WHICH CONSUMES AND PURIFY SOULS, NOT DESTROYS OR ERADICATES SOULS!

    THIS WOULD MAKE GOD INFERIOR TO EVIL!
    NOT OMNIPOTENT!
    GOD HATES SIN,
    BUT NOT HELL

    THE FACT THAT HIS PRESENCE IS THERE! THEREFORE LOVE IS ALSO THERE! HE HIMSELF IN “THE WORD” AS FIRE!!!!!

    ALSO IT WOULD MAKE A FALLACY GOD,THAT HE HIMSELF WOULD HAVE ESTABLISHED, SOMETHING LIKE HELL,AND THE ERADICATION OF SOULS, A KIND OF SUICIDE, AND ESTABLISHED HIMSELF WEAK, AND UNABLE TO MAKE EVIL CREATURES HOLY,

    A COMPLETE CONTRADICTION TO:

    LOVE YOUR ENEMY! AND HE HIMSELF ERADICATES HIS ENEMIES?

    DO GOOD THAT HATES YOU! AND HE HIMSELF DOES BAD?

    THE RAIN COMES DOWN FROM HEAVEN FOR BOTH GOOD AND EVIL!
    AND HE HIMSELF HAS NO SOLUTION FOR THE EVIL, WHY SENDS THEM THE RAIN, UNLESS THROUGH THAT EVIL, SATANA ITSELF GOOD, GOD REIGHNS?

    PERMIT ME TO SAY:YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR MIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I CAME FOR THE SICK! AND THROUGH HIS DEATH THE SICK REMAIN SICK?

    I CAME FOR THE LOST SHEEP! AND THE LOST REMAIN LOST?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    March 19, 2015 at 11:09 pm#791084
    Miia
    Participant

    The problem with your teaching t8 is that you interpret the word ‘destroyed’ to mean ‘annihilation’, which is nowhere in Scripture – but rather a conclusion arrived at purely by human reasoning..

    By Holy Spirit guided reasoning.
    The Spirit you see, gives love toward others into our hearts.
    I could not go to heaven knowing people are suffering for an eternity in some fiery hell.
    I would give up heaven to help them.
    The second commandment is to love our neighbor as our-self.
    The only way I can love God in TRUTH is knowing I can TRUST God with this thing.

    “And I heard the altar saying, “Yes, Lord God the Almighty, true and just are your judgments!” (Rev 16:7.

    If you were in eternal hell, those who know Love would get you out of there one way or another! But don’t worry, God is true and God is just, so nothing to worry about, except saving those who are destined to eternal death, because we do want them to live..

    2 Peter 3:9
    The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

    March 20, 2015 at 7:27 am#791107
    kerwin
    Participant

    Nick,

    Hi KW,

    Do you think DEATH has more than one meaning?

    When Jesus has the keys to death and Hades what does this mean?

    If the translators misunderstand what Jesus was saying then Jesus may have called Abaddon by the name Death. That is a hypothesis and one I have only a weak case to support. Abaddon is mentioned several times in the OT, though it is often erroneously translated to destruction. It is a place and so should be capitalized. I unfamiliar with the OT teachings about it because I have only lightly investigated it.

    Just going by what I know, and assuming translators were correct, I would say it means Jesus possesses the power to release the souls from the prison of Hades and to unlock the chains of death that bind this world.

    What do you thing it means.

    March 20, 2015 at 7:33 am#791108
    kerwin
    Participant

    Nick,

    The word “death” is English and therefore is very likely to have multiple definitions.

    One of those is pictured as a skeletal figure and called by the name Death but he is known in Scripture as the Angel of Death. I do not believe Jesus was speaking of the Angel of Death.

    March 20, 2015 at 7:42 am#791109
    kerwin
    Participant

    Miia,

    Nick, I think it means what Jesus said Himself.
    Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”(John 11:23)

    If you see what I wrote in response then you will see I also obtain essentially the same meaning as you do from those words.

    The words “I think” trumpet a lack of confidence in your conclusions. You would be wise to pray about them and test them so that you will build faith.

    March 20, 2015 at 8:27 am#791110
    kerwin
    Participant

    Miia,

    I could not go to heaven knowing people are suffering for an eternity in some fiery hell.

    If God has people suffer eternally in some eternal lake of fire then he has a righteous purpose for it and he is a loving God. His creations are too limited to judge his works.

    There does seem to be at least two that do suffer for a very long time. Unlike the false prophet and the Devil the rest are said to be killed.

    Judgement Day comes after they are killed so they could then be resurrected and judged and then thrown into the lack of fire to be tormented in the lake of fire to be tormented like their masters but Revelations does not say that and Jesus does say the body and soul will be destroyed in Gehenna. In Revelations 14 we are told that the ‘smoke of their torment goes up for ages and ages’. The pretense use of torment leads one to conclude that the Lake of Fire is tormenting those thrown in even as it smokes. Both passages come from Revelations that is highly symbolic and therefore dangerous to interpret literally. The only other support that I know of that speaks of torment is the demons, whom begged Jesus not to “torment us before the time”. Demonic prophecy is not something I would base a teaching on but it does serve to strengthen the case of those that believe in age long torment.

    The other side is just as strong. It is certainly not clear. I heard someone here claim that destroy does not mean annihilation and all I know is that in the English dictionaries I read it does. The other side claims ages for ages is does not mean forever and could meaning any time limit God chose it to mean. When I hear it use it means a very long time. Some words are symbolic though the demons seem sincerely fearful of torment but they are demons and therefore not trustworthy.

    It is confusing.

    March 20, 2015 at 9:17 am#791113
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Mila,

    The world teaches that men go to heaven.

    It is not a bible teaching.

    March 20, 2015 at 9:20 am#791114
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi mila,

    We cannot gloss over the fact that scripture poses dire warnings to those who refuse the message of Jesus Christ.

    The fear of God is essential to make the right decisions.

     

    The God the world offers is a cuddly teddy bear

    March 20, 2015 at 11:39 am#791132
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @kerwin

    Some if not all the confusion can be laid to rest when we consider that not all punishment is of the same measure. Some will be beaten with many stripes (so to speak) and others with fewer. When we look at our prison system, we see people enduring different lengths of punishments based on the seriousness of their crime. It’s not like all get the same sentence whether that is for genocide or non-payment of fines. God’s judgement is no different.

    It also makes sense that the worse punishment would be handed to Satan followed by the Beast and False Prophet. We see their punishment specifically mentioned in scripture, while others are also thrown into the same Lake with them, it doesn’t say that they will endure the same length of punishment..

    We are constantly taught that the fate of the wicked is death, destruction, and to perish. We are taught that they will be no more and that they will be burned up. But people spout ancient false doctrines that have endured through the centuries by certain powers so that people are kept in fear and then telling then the powers that be say they have the key. But the truth sets us free. Jesus has the keys and clearly the human soul is not eternal. However, humans can obtain eternal life, but not all inherit eternity.

    Do not be like those who throw away clear and abundant teaching for certain dangerous interpretations of prophecy that are easily misunderstood. Believe the teachings first and then your mind will be renewed so as to see clearly the prophecies. If you start with a particular view of prophecy first, it will skew your understanding of clear teaching even to the point of ignoring the teachings altogether as some do here.

    I watched an interesting video yesterday based on a 19th century revelation that was largely ignored in its day. I thought it lined up with scripture myself. It goes in some detail about the subject of the Lake of Fire and the different measures of punishment handed out. If you don’t have the patience for the whole video, then the Lake of Fire part is near the end if you are interested.

    https://heavennet.net/the-day-of-the-lord/

    March 20, 2015 at 11:46 am#791134
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Mila,

    The world teaches that men go to heaven.

    It is not a bible teaching.

    What it does say however is that to be away from the body is to be present with the Lord and we know where he is at the moment. It also says that he will come back to Earth with his saints or holy ones. It also says that some souls (of men) are under the altar of God and that before the throne stood a great number that no man could count.

    Yes the Earth is the habitation for men. But in the ages to come, there are plans and things that no eye has yet seen.

    I prefer to leave this up to God and only talk about that which he has revealed. He has revealed that men indeed will spend some time if you can call it that, in the place where God and his son is. We will certainly spend time in the Earth too. The new Earth will be a paradise, so will be a great place to inhabit.

    March 20, 2015 at 11:50 am#791136
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi t8,

    Men CAN go to heaven as the Lord has shown us.

    But scripture does not say as men do that it is the destiny of good men.

     

    March 20, 2015 at 11:59 am#791137
    kerwin
    Participant

    T9,

    I just found a Jewish Teaching about Gehinnom that may apply. In it those that are thrown into the lake of fire are tormented for a time that is in accordance with their sins. It say 12 months maximum but Scripture stages ages and ages and I think that is probably longer. Some will repent of their sins which I do not see in though I know of of at least one passage that seems to hint at something like that. After they have suffered they are either destroyed or live in remorse depending on whether they repent or not. This teaching accounts for both the torment and the destruction.

    Some views see Gehinnom as one of severe punishment, a bit like the Christian Hell of fire and brimstone. Other sources merely see it as a time when we can see the actions of our lives objectively, see the harm that we have done and the opportunities we missed, and experience remorse for our actions. The period of time in Gehinnom does not exceed 12 months, and then ascends to take his place on Olam Ha-Ba.

    Only the utterly wicked do not ascend at the end of this period; their souls are punished for the entire 12 months. Sources differ on what happens at the end of those 12 months: some say that the wicked soul is utterly destroyed and ceases to exist while others say that the soul continues to exist in a state of consciousness of remorse.

    Gehinnom

    March 20, 2015 at 12:00 pm#791138
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,

    Relevant opinion do you think?

    March 20, 2015 at 12:04 pm#791140
    kerwin
    Participant

    t8,

    There were others resurrected when he was.  The people in Jerusalem saw them and then they are no longer mentioned in Scripture.

    March 20, 2015 at 12:11 pm#791141
    kerwin
    Participant

    Nick,

    It is clearly better than guesswork which abounds on this subject.

    Judaism and Christianity are essential the same religion with their major difference being the Jews looks forward to the birth of the Christ while Christians view it as history and look forward to his return from heaven.

    I do not see it as gospel  but it does address an apparent conflict in the new testament and you cannot accuse the Jews of being biased as least not about the new testament.

     

    March 20, 2015 at 12:26 pm#791142
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi t8,

    Men CAN go to heaven as the Lord has shown us.

    But scripture does not say as men do that it is the destiny of good men.

    The habitation of men is Earth. It is our home.

    Men in the ages to come will likely multiply, thus if it is to exist eternally, you don’t need to be a rocket scientist to imagine that the Earth will run out of room at some point. That said, I fall back on the fact that no eye has seen that which God has waiting for those that love him. So I personally do not like to say that men will only live there. It could be for all we know that Earth is where we start. First is the physical and then the spiritual. It is God’s prerogative and we cannot decide these things for God. We can only go by what he has revealed and we know that he has revealed men in different states in differing locations at different times.

    March 20, 2015 at 12:30 pm#791143
    Miia
    Participant

    Hi Kerwin.

    If God has people suffer eternally in some eternal lake of fire then he has a righteous purpose for it and he is a loving God. His creations are too limited to judge his works.

    Even though we are limited, God still gave us a brain and a heart – to use.
    God respects our searching and our love for our neighbor. He will show us the truth because He knows our hearts.

    In Revelations 14 we are told that the ‘smoke of their torment goes up for ages and ages’. The pretense use of torment leads one to conclude that the Lake of Fire is tormenting those thrown in even as it smokes. Both passages come from Revelations that is highly symbolic and therefore dangerous to interpret literally. The only other support that I know of that speaks of torment is the demons, whom begged Jesus not to “torment us before the time”. Demonic prophecy is not something I would base a teaching on but it does serve to strengthen the case of those that believe in age long torment.

    The “smoke of their torment” going up forever and ever is like smoke that goes up into the air seemingly to the observer “forever and ever” I believe.

    The smoke of the incense which is the prayers of the saints is also said to rise up before God in Rev 8:3.

    The “torment” and the “smoke of their torment” is when the sinners are alive on earth if read in its proper context, just as the saints prayers and the incense of their prayers are when the saints are alive on earth.

    Rev 14:6-8 is speaking of the “eternal gospel to preach to those who live on earth”
    Rev 14:9 is talking about God’s wrath of those on earth who worship the beast. It says “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest DAY AND NIGHT…Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus”, again, alive on earth.
    It then goes on to say “And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them.” again further proof the context of the passage is on earth BEFORE death.

    The other side is just as strong. It is certainly not clear. I heard someone here claim that destroy does not mean annihilation and all I know is that in the English dictionaries I read it does. The other side claims ages for ages is does not mean forever and could meaning any time limit God chose it to mean. When I hear it use it means a very long time. Some words are symbolic though the demons seem sincerely fearful of torment but they are demons and therefore not trustworthy.

    It is confusing.

    It not confusing at all, Kerwin. Believe that God is Just and True and then all of the words make sense.

    The words “I think” trumpet a lack of confidence in your conclusions. You would be wise to pray about them and test them so that you will build faith.

    Thanks.

    What do you mean by “test them”?

    March 20, 2015 at 12:31 pm#791144
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    T9,

    I just found a Jewish Teaching about Gehinnom that may apply. In it those that are thrown into the lake of fire are tormented for a time that is in accordance with their sins. It say 12 months maximum but Scripture stages ages and ages and I think that is probably longer. Some will repent of their sins which I do not see in though I know of of at least one passage that seems to hint at something like that. After they have suffered they are either destroyed or live in remorse depending on whether they repent or not. This teaching accounts for both the torment and the destruction.

    I will give it a read too. I didn’t know I had an older brother or is T9 the next model up from me?

    March 20, 2015 at 12:34 pm#791145
    kerwin
    Participant

    Nick,

    Now that I look back I see other posts you could have been addressing.  Could you please be more specific about what you are addressing in the future.  Thank you.

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