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Hi t8,
Hoping that you would respond to the following,
Our One True God is above all in ALL things, He is LORD, a master over influence and persuasion. If His influence and persuasion is not greater, more powerful over His own creation that He specifically designed to be made into His image, then one must believe that there exists wicked gods more powerful than Him.
explain t8 how you are not teaching self- righteousness?
Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Jeremiah 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Destruction here in this passage is the first death. The lake of fire is the second death, it is the destruction of death itself, all those yet to be brought by God into repentance are cast in the Lake of Fire, they are REFINED, where the sinner is no longer, hence why death is destroyed in the Lake of Fire, as all have been purified, all have come to the knowledge of the LORD. God has given them a new heart, a repentant heart that seeks to no longer sin, and thus the sinner is destroyed.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Ezekiel 36:9 For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown: 10 And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded: 11 And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men. 13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they say unto you, Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations; 14 Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave* thy nations any more, saith the Lord GOD. 15 Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the Lord GOD. 16 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman. 18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it: 19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them. 20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land. 21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. 22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. 23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Our One True God is above all in ALL things, He is LORD, a master over influence and persuasion. If His influence and persuasion is not greater, more powerful over His own creation that He specifically designed to be made into His image, then one must believe that there exists wicked gods more powerful than Him.
I am not sure what you mean there must be evil more powerful gods because if there was no free will, and only God’s will was supreme in all beings, then there would be no evil. But the fact that there is evil which is not part of God’s own nature, aptly demonstrates that God allowed for beings to choose him or not choose him.
Jodi, if we didn’t have a will, and God’s will reigned supreme over our will so that our will was basically not there, then we would be extensions of God, not beings that are able to choose God or not. Giving beings a will to choose right from wrong is not weakness on the part of God’s will, rather it is wisdom to do so.
And with this choice love is possible. We can choose God because we love him or choose the world and flesh because we love that.
t8, I never said that man did not have a will. I have spoken numerous times about how Jesus overcame his own will that of a human will, and he did it through God’s Spirit.
We choose God because God made us not robots, but rather influential beings, and God’s INFLUENCE and persuasion is greater than any other entity. God leads man to choose Him. As God said, “I will put my spirit within you, and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.”
Hi All,
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and YHWH hath laid on him the iniquity of us ALL.
Matt 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these (3398. mikros: least) should perish.
Matt 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Luke 10:29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour? 30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, 34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee. 36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbor unto him that fell among the thieves? 37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
Me: We are to love all as ourselves, even our enemies, for all will be saved.
Matt 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Me: This is not addressing only giving aid to the church members, but to all that are our neighbors. That means All. Those that do the opposite will face judgment but will be saved by it. The lake of fire is a consuming fire. It consumes all sin and resistance to God. This is the hard way.
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Me: This is the hard way.
Matt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Me: This is easy compared to the end time judgment of the Pharisees in Luke 3:16
1 Cor 15:23 For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 24 But EVERY MAN in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Me: The church includes Christ and all the other members of his church that form one temple. We are the firstfruits of the spirit in 1 Cor 15:23. Every man shall be saved. All die spiritually and physically through Adam. All receive eternal life through Christ.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Me: “No more death” does not only mean from now on but from whenever death appeared.
1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Me: God is not willing that any perish, so none will. God’s will be done in heaven and on earth (Matt 6:10).
Hi All,
Job 41:5 Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?
Me: We are a like a plaything to God.
Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Matt 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
Me: God will accomplish his will. Our wills, if contrary to his will not prevail.
New American Standard Bible
John 12:32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (1670. helkó:drag) all men to Myself.”
https://biblehub.com/lexicon/john/12-32.htmMe: The primary definition of G1670 is drag or force. The secondary definition is draw. God’s will shall prevail, not man’s. You will be saved whether you want to or not.
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith YHWH: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Me: Everyone will be cleaned and saved in the end, one way or the other.
Hi All,
IMO I Consider the below the best on this subject
Saviour of the World Series
https://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
t8, I never said that man did not have a will. I have spoken numerous times about how Jesus overcame his own will that of a human will, and he did it through God’s Spirit.
Can we choose God or the World? Can we choose God or money? Can we choose the Spirit or flesh? Can we choose love over hate? Can we choose light or darkness?
If so, then God made us free to choose and hence why we are judged for our decisions and actions.
Gene denies all this. Perhaps you could help him out with this one.
We choose God because God made us not robots, but rather influential beings, and God’s INFLUENCE and persuasion is greater than any other entity. God leads man to choose Him. As God said, “I will put my spirit within you, and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.”
Influence from God is strong as you say, but so is influence of the flesh and from the world. Do not underestimate it. And this is not the same as saying that these things are as strong as God. Of course not. It just means that God gives a chance to not be overtaken by the things that seek to destroy us. Instead of being ruled by our sinful nature and the world, he provides from himself the Spirit so we can led into all truth. He is generous with the power of love to triumph over hate. He gives us what we need in order to change and be transformed.
He never lets us be overwhelmed to the point where we have no option but to give up on God. No, when we give up on God it is because we wanted to give up, and we use an excuse of some kind instead of blaming our shallow commitment. Or perhaps the pressure is greater than one’s love for God. so they buckle. When things get tough though, God raises up a standard against it, so always look out for that.
When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him
So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
He gives us prevention by leading us and a solution when the problem is present. Trust in God and trust in Jesus Christ.
This is my understanding. Yes, hell is eternal. However, the Book of Revelation is symbolic. Revelation 1:1 says, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John.” Signified here means, “a sign.”
Gehenna-Valley of (the sons of) Hinnom ( The abode of condemned souls).
Tartarus (Greek)- the deep abyss of torment and suffering.
Hades-The grave. The place of bodily decay.
Sheol-A place of darkness to which the dead go. (Also known as Hades.)
All are different names for hell but, all describe the same torment and suffering.
**condemnation: to declare to be reprehensible, wrong, or evil usually after weighing evidence and without reservation.
Would a loving God who considers every life precious send His creation into a fiery furnace to burn for evermore?
Is hell literally a fiery place of eternal torment?
MILLIONS of people have been taught by their religions that hell is a place where people are tormented. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, “The Roman Catholic Church teaches that hell . . . will last forever; its suffering will have no end.” This Catholic teaching, the encyclopedia goes on to say, “is still held by many conservative Protestant groups.” Hindus, Buddhists and Muhammadans also teach that hell is a place of torment. No wonder that people who have been taught this often say that if hell is such a bad place they do not want to talk about it.Did Almighty God create such a place of torment? Look to scripture and see what God’s view was when the Israelites followed the examples of people who lived nearby began to burn their children in fire. God says in Jeremiah 7:31 “And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.”
Think about this. If the idea of roasting people in fire had never come into God’s heart, do you believe that He would create a fiery hell for people who chose not to serve Him. 1 John 4:8 “He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.”
Would a loving God really torment people forever? Would you do so? Knowing of God’s love should make us want to turn to scripture to discover what hell is, who goes there and how long will they be there.
(Webster’s Dictionary says that the English word “hell” is equal to the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek word Hades.)
The English translators of the Authorized Version, or King James Version, translated Sheol 31 times as “hell,” 31 times as “grave,” and 3 times as “pit.” The Catholic Douay Version translated Sheol 64 times as “hell.” In the Christian Greek Scriptures (commonly called the “New Testament”), the King James Version translated Hades as “hell” each of the 10 times it occurs.—Matthew 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; Acts 2:27, 31; Revelation 1:18; 6:8; 20:13, 14.
The question is: What kind of place is Sheol, or Hades? The fact that the King James Version translates the one Hebrew word Sheol three different ways shows that hell, grave and pit mean one and the same thing. And if hell means the common grave of mankind, it could not at the same time mean a place of fiery torture. So, do Sheol and Hades mean the grave or do they mean a place of torture?
Let’s be clear that the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek word Hades mean the same thing. This is shown by looking at Psalm 16:10 “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption” in the Hebrew Scriptures. In Acts 2:31 “He seeing this before spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption” in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Notice that in quoting from Psalm 16:10 where Sheol occurs, Acts 2:31 uses Hades. Notice, too, that Jesus Christ was in Hades, or hell. Are we to believe that God tormented Christ in a hell of fire? Of course not! Jesus was simply in his grave.
When Jacob was mourning for his beloved son Joseph, who he thought had been killed, he said: “I shall go down mourning to my son into Sheol!” (Genesis 37:35) However, the King James Version here translates Sheol to “grave,” and the Douay Version translates it “hell.” Now, stop for a moment and think. Did Jacob believe that his son Joseph went to a place of torment to spend eternity there, and did he want to go there and meet him? Or, rather, was it that Jacob merely thought that his beloved son was dead and in the grave and that Jacob himself wanted to die?
Yes, good people go to the Bible hell. For example, the good man Job, who was suffering a great deal, prayed to God: “O that in Sheol [grave, King James Version; hell, Douay Version] you would conceal me, . . . that you would set a time limit for me and remember me!” (Job 14:13) Now think: If Sheol means a place of fire and torment, would Job wish to go and spend his time there until God remembered him? Clearly, Job wanted to die and go to the grave that his sufferings might end.
In all the places where Sheol occurs in the Bible it is never associated with life, activity or torment. Rather, it is often linked with death and inactivity. For example, think about Ecclesiastes 9:10, which reads: “Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.” (grave, King James Version; hell, Douay Version. So the answer becomes very clear. Sheol and Hades refer not to a place of torment but to the common grave of mankind. (Psalm 139:8) “If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in [a]hell, behold, You are there.” Good people as well as bad people go to the Bible hell.
Can people get out of hell? Consider the case of Jonah. When God had a big fish swallow Jonah to save him from drowning, Jonah prayed from the fish’s belly: “And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.” Jonah 2:2.
What did Jonah mean by “out of the belly of hell?” That fish’s belly was surely not a place of fiery torment. But it could have become Jonah’s grave. In fact, Jesus Christ said regarding himself: “Just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.” Matthew 12:40.
Jesus was dead and in his grave for three days. But the Bible reports: “His soul was not left in hell . . . This Jesus hath God raised up.” (Acts 2:31, 32, King James Version) Similarly, by God’s direction Jonah was raised from hell, that is, from what would have been his grave. This happened when the fish vomited him out onto dry land. Yes, people can get out of hell! In fact, the heartwarming promise is that hell (Hades) is to be emptied of all its dead. This can be seen by reading Revelation 20:13, which says: “The sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell [Hades] delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.”—King James Version.
Yet a lot of people will deny it saying: ‘The Bible does talk about hellfire and the lake of fire. Does this not prove that hell is a place of torment?’ True, some Bible translations, such as the King James Version, speak of “hell fire” and of being “cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched.” (Matthew 5:22; Mark 9:45) All together there are 12 verses in the Christian Greek Scriptures where the King James Version uses “hell” to translate the Greek word Gehenna. Is Gehenna really a place of fiery torment, whereas when Hades is translated “hell” it simply means the grave? Clearly, the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek word Hades do mean the grave.
Well, then, what does Gehenna mean? In the Hebrew Scriptures Gehenna is “the valley Hinnom.” Remember, Hinnom was the name of the valley just outside the walls of Jerusalem where the Israelites sacrificed their children in the fire. In time, good King Josiah had this valley made unfit to be used for such a horrible practice. (2 Kings 23:10) It was turned into a huge garbage, or rubbish dump.
So during the time Jesus was on earth Gehenna was Jerusalem’s garbage dump. Fires were kept burning there by the adding of brimstone (sulfur) to burn up the garbage. Smith’s Dictionary of the Bible, Volume 1, explains: “It became the common lay-stall [garbage dump] of the city, where the dead bodies of criminals, and the carcasses of animals, and every other kind of filth was cast.” No live creatures, however, were cast there.
Knowing about their city’s garbage dump, Jerusalem’s inhabitants understood what Jesus meant when he told the wicked religious leaders: “Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (Matthew 23:33) Jesus plainly did not mean that those religious leaders would be tormented. Why, when the Israelites were burning their children alive in that valley, God said that to do such a horrible thing had never come up into his heart! So it was clear that Jesus was using Gehenna as a fitting symbol of complete and everlasting destruction. He meant that those wicked religious leaders were not worthy of a resurrection. Those listening to Jesus could understand that those going to Gehenna, like so much garbage, would be destroyed forever.
What, then, is “the lake of fire” mentioned in the Bible book of Revelation? It has a meaning similar to that of Gehenna. It means not conscious torment but everlasting death, or destruction. Notice how the Bible itself says this at Revelation 20:14: “And death and Hades [hell, King James Version and Douay Version] were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.” Yes, the lake of fire means “second death,” the death from which there is no resurrection. It is evident that this “lake” is a symbol, because death and hell (Hades) are thrown into it. Death and hell cannot literally be burned. But they can, and will, be done away with, or destroyed.
What does it mean that the Devil will be tormented forever in “the lake of fire”? ‘Yet the Bible says that the Devil will be tormented forever in the lake of fire,’ someone may point out. (Revelation 20:10) What does this mean? When Jesus was on earth jailers were at times called “tormentors.” As Jesus said of a certain man in one of his illustrations: “And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.” (Matthew 18:34, King James Version) Since those who are thrown into “the lake of fire” go into “second death” from which there is no resurrection, they are, so to speak, jailed forever in death. They remain in death as though in the custody of jailers for all eternity.
The wicked, of course, are not literally tormented because, as we have seen, when a person is dead he is completely out of existence. He is not conscious of anything.This is my understanding. Yes, hell is eternal.
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
The question is the Lake of Fire. But scripture says that only the righteous inherit eternal life. So the idea that the wicked will have eternal life too albeit in a burning lake seems not only cruel but contradicts that life comes from God’s spirit / breath and that it is given back to God. Scripture nowhere teaches us that God fills the wicked with his breath for all eternity.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Not saying you disagree with this. Just clarifying my position on this.
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