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Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on Earth?

Where did Jesus come from?

John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict that belief which suggests he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus came into existence for the first time when he was conceived through Mary, how could he come down from Heaven? We (Man) came into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven too? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven? If so, then why not Jesus?

John 3:17 is another verse that provides support that Jesus came down from Heaven or was sent rather than created.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

The word ‘send’ is the Greek word ‘apostello’.

apostello {ap-os-tel’-lo}
1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2) to send away, dismiss
2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2b) to order one to depart, send off
2c) to drive away

To be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born or created. In fact this word (sent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”. To be sent forth with order, you must exist.

John 6:62
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Jesus is clearly stating here that he came from above since he eventually ascended into Heaven to be at the right-hand of God.

How old is Jesus?

John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.‘ “

John the Baptist was six months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him in age. If this verse is referencing age, then it shows preexistence. Jesus existed before  John the Baptist in the least.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!“

Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham, the father of the Jews. The words ‘I am’ mean ‘I exist’. So Jesus claimed existence before Abraham. We can see that Jesus is getting older as we explore the scriptures. But how old?

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Here we can see that majesty, power, and authority through Jesus Christ is before all ages (all worlds) and forever more into the future. This strongly implies that Jesus existed even before all things. But can we substantiate this?

Did Jesus exist before all creation?

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Colossians answers the question outright. It states that “He is before all things“.  But are there other verses that support this idea?

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So there is nothing that was made that didn’t involve Jesus being there. This verse alone answers the question because the universe, angels, and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created according to these verses. In case that is not enough to convince you, I also add another clear verse that says the same thing.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Is Jesus the Word of God?

But some say that this is talking about the Word and not all believe that Jesus is the Word of God. They argue that Jesus came from the Word, but is not the Word itself that was with God in John 1:1. If you believe this, then please explain the next two verses within their wider context:

Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Colossians 1:15-18
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

Okay, if you are honest, this is a closed case. God created all things through the Word. Jesus is called the Word of God and also the son of God. We are also told that God created all things through the son of God. Even if you do not believe that Jesus is the Word, then you still have to believe that Jesus pre-existed on account of him being the son of God. But what we know from scripture is that Jesus existed as the Word of God before he came as a man called Jesus. We know that the Word became flesh.

More proof verses

If Jesus pre-existed, then you might expect that even though the above verses are clear, there would be more verses that teach or at least imply that he pre-existed. So let’s see if this is the case.

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existence before King David. He also claims to be the bright Morning Star and we read in Job how the Morning Stars were present when God created the Earth.

Job 38:6-7
“On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy? 

Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Comparing Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10, some say that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. If this was the case, then Jesus saw an event that took place before he was born as a man. However, others argue that Satan hasn’t fallen to the Earth yet, or that he has, but Jesus saw this in a vision. Regardless, it certainly doesn’t contradict that Jesus pre-existed.

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

The above verse talks about someone who will rule Israel and whose origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God/Divine.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Clearly, Jesus was with God in the beginning as the Word of God. This places his existence as before all things and thus comes as no surprise that he was there when God created all things.

The Angel of YHWH

We know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and many assume that Jesus gave the Law of God. We are told in Acts:7:30-39 for instance that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.

30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord’s voice:
32 ‘I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.’Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, ‘Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.’
35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, ‘Who made you ruler and judge?’ He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, ‘God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.’
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

So is this Angel of the Lord, Jesus? Well it seems possible. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed the message to Jesus Christ who in turn sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the angel in Revelation is the same angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39.

But the Angel of YHWH or Angel of the LORD is described as one like the son of gods.

Daniel 3:24-25
Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astounded and stood up in haste; he said to his high officials, “Was it not three men we cast bound into the midst of the fire?” They replied to the king, “Certainly, O king.” He said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!”

The idea that a preincarnate Jesus was this Angel of the LORD is a popular one. We know that this Angel of the LORD is never mentioned while Jesus is walking the earth which supports this idea. But it could also be a coincidence. One connection that can be made with Jesus being this messenger is found in Judges 13:18.

Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?” But the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”

Now read what Isaiah prophesied in Isaiah 9:6 .

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Clearly, Isaiah was speaking of Jesus Christ and note that he was called Wonderful Counselor. Is there a connection here? Perhaps. What we do know is the word ‘angel’ is the same word messenger in the Old Testament, and while it is held that Jesus is not an angel in kind, we know he certainly was a messenger of YHWH and would be fair to say even ‘The Messenger of YHWH’.

So the idea that he may be this angel is not that far fetched. Some vehemently oppose this idea, but they are not aware that both Jesus and John are called angels in the messenger sense.

More to come here……

More proof that Jesus pre-existed

Rev 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

Moving on we read the following in Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Surely the above verses assumes preexistence.  Look at verse 7: ‘but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness’. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself. Further, he “found himself in appearance as a man” is a weird statement to make if he first existed as a human baby.

This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word ‘equal’. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.

A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

The above verse is clear about Christ’s pre-existence in glory before the world began. Just to prove this is not an isolated scripture here is a similar verse:

John 16:28
I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”

The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.

John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.

This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Now the word head in the Greek is ‘kephale’ which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is ‘Christos’ which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man.
God > Christ > Man > Woman

If God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror.

So we know that Christ preexisted before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself?

Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So again, there is nothing that was made that didn’t involve Jesus/The Word being there. Only the Father and Son were not made. God has always existed and the Son was born from God before the creation of the universe, before anything was made. The next verse describes clearly who/what was the first of God’s works.

Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him.

So from this verse we can see the following points.

Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Wisdom was given birth before creation.
Wisdom was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.
Some say that Wisdom isn’t Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses:

1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Let’s look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:

Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept.
Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept.
Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept.
Now look at the following mystery:

1 Corinthians 2:6-9
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Although I am less than the least of all God’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God.

Finally I leave you with the following OT scripture that suggests that God had a Son before the birth Of Jesus Christ on earth.

Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

Discussion

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  • January 11, 2012 at 11:40 pm#271796
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 12 2012,09:24)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 11 2012,12:51)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 11 2012,10:39)
    I existed in the form of God.  Then I emptied myself and was made into a human being.  But I know that when I eventually die, God will return me to the glory that I already had alongside Him before the world was created through me.

    Frank, can YOU make that statement?


    Mike,

    It seems that you are spewing the same crap that t8 has previously spewed! ???


    Yeah, yeah…………..  we're all spewing crap.  :)

    Now, will you actually answer the question?  Or will you continue to hide from it behind insults?


    Mike,

    Why is it that you demand that I answer a crap spewed question? ???

    January 11, 2012 at 11:51 pm#271798
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    MANY BELIEVE IN THE PRE-EXISTENCE OF YAHSHUA – WHY?

    Why do people believe that Yahshua pre-existed? What is the real reason? The answer is, The pre-existence is a tradition of our fathers. In early times the Roman Catholic Church accepted the doctrine of the Trinity , which is a tenant of all pagan religions. The pre-existence of Yahshua is an integral part of the doctrine of the Trinity. Without the pre-existence of Yahshua, there can be no Trinity.

    In the 15th and 16th centuries, when many people broke away from the Roman Catholic Church to form the Protestant movement, protests were made against many doctrines of the “Ancient Church”. However, the doctrine of the Trinity was not included in these protests. The majority of Protestants made no changes in this pernicious doctrine.

    True, a small minority of Protestants realized the fallacy of the Trinity doctrine, which calls for “God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit”. What happened when a minority of Protestants refused the Trinity? Instead of dropping the pagan doctrine in its entirety, they dropped only one third of it and retained two thirds. “God the Holy Spirit” was dropped from the “godhead”, leaving two deities instead of three; “God the Father, and God the Son”, a Twinity, rather than a Trinity*.

    WEBMASTER COMMENT: Note that the concepts of “God the Son” and “God the Holy Spirit” are not taught in Scripture.

    Parallel to this was the Zoroastrian religion which has endured since ancient times. It consist of a Duality of deities – a Twinity; another deterrent in accepting the Biblical truth: faith in the ONE (o-n-e) true Deity, Yahweh.

    Plato and other Greeks held the view that the SON of the true god is the divine governor, and is the ORIGIN of all things present and future (Encyc. Judaica, article: Logos). Does this sound familiar? It surely does. Contrary to Scripture as originally given, many Bible readers hold this view today concerning Yahshua of Nazareth. Yahshua the son of Yahweh, is honored as the Creator.

    Just as the Greeks and other Gentile converts retain pagan holidays such as Christmas, Easter, Halloween, May Day; the immorality of the soul, and the Trinity; they also retain their belief that the SON of the Supreme Being was the actual creator of the universe. Only one step further brought them to the analogy of identifying Yahshua as that Son who created all things.

    Most Biblical scholars held these views even before they began translating the Scriptures into the English language, so it was only natural the the Greek view would, to some extent, manifest itself in our English translations. Examples of his are John 1:10; Eph 3:9; Col. 1:15-18; Heb. 1:2.

    Brethren, let us drop the false traditions of our Fathers, and accept Biblical Truth.

    End Note

    * Many speak of Jerusalem which is holy to three monotheistic religions. This is a falsehood. Christianity is Trinitarian so, for that reason, cannot qualify as a monotheistic religion. The very word Trinity (three) cancels this possibility. This is also true of the Duality. It is a contradiction in terms to refer to a Duality (a Twinity), as a monotheistic religion. Duality means two. Therefore Duality cannot be a monotheistic religion, as mono = one, theos = god; Monotheism = One god). It is contradictory to claim monotheism for Trinitarian and Dualistic religion. It is a false declaration.

    May the one true El bless you.

    Sincerely,

    Voy Wilks

    11\14\93

    SOURCE

    January 12, 2012 at 12:18 am#271810
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 11 2012,16:40)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 12 2012,09:24)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 11 2012,12:51)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 11 2012,10:39)
    I existed in the form of God.  Then I emptied myself and was made into a human being.  But I know that when I eventually die, God will return me to the glory that I already had alongside Him before the world was created through me.

    Frank, can YOU make that statement?


    Mike,

    It seems that you are spewing the same crap that t8 has previously spewed! ???


    Yeah, yeah…………..  we're all spewing crap.  :)

    Now, will you actually answer the question?  Or will you continue to hide from it behind insults?


    Mike,

    Why is it that you demand that I answer a crap spewed question?  ???


    Okay Frank,

    I think we're all able to see your true answer, which is “Mike, I will continue to hide from your question behind insults because I'm unwilling to answer it for fear that it will refute much of the crap I myself spew on HN.”   :D  :laugh:  :D

    January 12, 2012 at 12:19 am#271812
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Frank,

    Are you able to offer a VALID reason why the Word of God in John 1:1 and 14 cannot possibly be the same person as the Word of God in Rev 19:13?

    January 12, 2012 at 1:20 am#271836
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    YAHSHUA: DID HE PRE-EXIST?
    An Explanation Of Our Views
    By Voy Wilks
    10/23/90

    Did the Messiah pre-exist in some form before he was conceived of Mary, the Jewish woman? Many people believe he did, while many believe he did not. Most if not all of these people seem to rely on the same source of information – the Bible, so why isn't there complete agreement, since all read from the same source? There are several reasons for non-conformity, some of which are as follows:

    Background. A person whose church teaches the pre-existence is not likely to question whether this is true or false. Instead, it is accepted as fact. This is true of most religious views. Generally, it is only those doctrines which seem to be “new” which are examined to determine if they are true or false.

    Bias. A preference for or against a doctrine can sometimes prevent a correct analysis of Scripture. This can be caused by a person's background, or by some other consideration. Example: Anti Semitism (hatred of the Jews) can prevent a correct understanding of which is the true day of worship

    Failure. Failure, for whatever reason, to understand the message in Scripture.

    Translation. There is the possibility, in some cases, that the religious views of the translators have influenced their translation.

    There are a number of Scriptures which seem to promote the pre-existence of the Messiah. Surely the most powerful of these is Hebrews 1:2.

    Hebrews 1:1 & 2

    “In many and various ways Yahweh spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he created the world” (RSV).

    This indicates the heavenly Father is supreme.

    (1) As most English versions read, he authorized the Son, Yahshua, to do the actual work in creating the heavens and the earth and all things in them.

    (2) Many believe that Yahshua, in a pre-existent state, was Yahweh's spokesman; a Son spoke for him and did Yahweh's work for him, such as creating the world.

    If either of the statements are true – if Yahshua spoke the world into existence – then certainly the Messiah existed before the world existed. Let us now examine Hebrews 1:1,2.

    What is a spokesman? “One who speaks in the name and on behalf of another or others” (Readers Digest Great Encyclopedic Dictionary, 1975).

    Reviewing Heb 1:1 we see that Yahshua was not Yahweh's spokesman. Instead, the prophets were his spokesmen. Yahweh “spoke to our fathers by the prophets.” Therefore, even if Yahshua pre-existed, he was not the spokesman who contacted “our fathers.” It was, evidently, only in “these last days” that Yahweh “spoke to us by his Son” (Heb 1:1; 1 Pet. 1:20).

    Yahshua the Heir

    “… but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed HEIR OF ALL THINGS, …” (Heb. 1:2).

    What does this say? Yahweh appointed his Son (Yahshua) to be his heir – to inherit “all things.” Please keep in mind: A son does not inherit property which he, himself, has worked for. No. He owns that already. This indicates that Yahshua did not, after all, create the world, since he is the heir to his Father's property. Does this agree with other Scriptures? Indeed, yes. Please note the following evidence:

    “Hear another parable. There was a householder who planted a vineyard, and set a hedge about it, and dug a wine press in it, and built a tower, and let it out to tenants, and went into a far country. When the season of fruit drew near. he sent his servants to the tenants, to get his fruit; and the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first; and they did the same to them. AFTERWARD he SENT HIS SON to them, saying, they will respect my son. But when the tenants saw the son they said to themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him and have his INHERITANCE. And they took him and cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” (Mt 21:33-40 Mk. 12:1-7; Lk. 20:9-16).

    The following points are clear:

    o   The Father (Yahweh) was the householder.

    o   The Father (Yahweh) planted the vineyard.

    o   The Father (Yahweh) set the hedge, built the tower, and dug the winepress.

    o   The Father (Yahweh) made the contract with the tenants; that is Israel (Isa. 5:1-7; Ps. 80:8-19).

    o   The Father (Yahweh) sent his servants (the prophets).

    o   The Father (Yahweh) sent his son (Yahshua).

    o   The son (Yahshua) was the heir of his Father's property (the vineyard with all its improvements).

    o   The Son (Yahshua) was cast out and killed.

    Obviously, Yahshua is both the Son and the Heir; not the owner, nor the householder. True, this is a parable, but in order to teach truth, a parable must agree with prevailing conditions. Other Scriptures – Other Scriptures which are not parables – agree with Hebrews 1:2 that Yahshua is the heir of Father Yahweh's property.

    “For all who are lead by the spirit of Yahweh are sons of Yahweh. … and if children, then heirs, heirs of Yahweh and FELLOW HEIRS WITH the Messiah, …” (Rom. 8:14,17).

    “… for in Messiah Yahshua you are all sons of Yahweh, through faith. For as many as were baptized into the Messiah have put on the Messiah. … And if you are the Messiah's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise” (Gal. 3:26,27,29). So through Yahweh you are no longer a slave but a son and if a son then an heir” (Gal. 4:7).

    We inherit the promise made to Abraham: the kingdom (the world, the vineyard), and everlasting life, because Yahshua is the chief heir. By baptism in his name we, and the ancients, become fellow heirs with the Messiah (Gal. 3:16-19; Titus 3:7; Heb 11:7-10; Acts 20:32; 7:5,6; Rom. 4:13; Eph. 1:3-23; 1 Peter 1:3,4; Rev. 21:5-7).

    Remember the mother of James and John? She asked the Savior to grant that her two sons will set, one on Yahshua's right and one on his left in the Kingdom of Yahweh. Yahshua's reply: (the heavenly Father), being the Creator, is owner of all, while Yahshua (his Son) is the heir.

    “I will tell of the decrees of Yahweh: He said to me, 'You are my son, today I [Yahweh] have begotten you. Ask of me and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession” (Ps. 2:7-9; Heb. 5:5).

    Again, this shows Yahweh as both Father and Creator, and Yahshua as both Son and the Heir. Ephesians 1:3-23 also shows Yahweh to be the Creator, the Father, and the owner of the inheritance. One day Yahshua will receive this inheritance, and make us (the saints, (Jew and Gentile) joint heirs with himself. Again, the following quotation reveals Yahweh as the provider and owner of the inheritance. Yahshua extends to us a share as joint heirs.

    “For every house is builded by someone; but he that built all things is Yahweh” (Heb. 3:4 Bethel Edition).

    These Scriptures are more than enough to confirm Yahweh as Creator and Yahshua his Son will one day inherit his Father's property – his Father's creation.

    By Whom He Made The Worlds

    “Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things,
    BY WHOM also he made the worlds; …” (Heb. 1:2 KJV). The RSV reads, “… through whom he created the world.”

    This very clearly states the world was created By the Son of Yahweh. This Son is Yahshua, of course. However, Scriptural evidence noted above indicates Yahweh did the creating, not Yahshua. Are we to believe the
    apostles and the Gospel writers wrote two ways, sometimes reporting that Yahweh is Creator, and at other times reporting that his Son is Creator? Indeed no.

    More than 100 Scriptures state clearly that Yahweh is Creator and Maker of heaven and earth (Ex. 20:11). Some of these indicate that no other deity exist (Isa. 44:6). No other deity helped him in his creating acts (Neh. 9:6). Except for the angels, he was alone in the creation (Isa. 45:5-18). These are stated clearly – as clearly as Hebrews 1:2 states that Yahshua made the world.”

    What shall we do? Do we cancel (erase, throw out) more than 100 Scriptures so that we can accept Hebrews 1:2 instead? Since this Scripture does not in most English versions agree with the 100, we should carefully examine Hebrews 1:2 and, hopefully, discover why it does not agree.

    The Word “By”

    Yahweh created the world “by” (through) the Son (Heb. 1:2 KJV). The Diaglott says Yahweh created the world “on account of” the Son. Any one of the three (“by,” “through,” or “on account of”) is, technically, a correct translation of the Greek word Di' or Dia. Dia is in the KJV translated several ways, but usually is translated as follows:

    By – 243 times; through – 100 times; for – 106 times; because – 24 times; because of – 29 times; for the sake of – 32 times; etc.

    The King's Men did not translate the WORD di' incorrectly in Heb. 1:2. By or through is a correct translation of the WORD, but ONLY IF THE MESSAGE in the sentence agrees, or allows it. But alas, in this case the message of the sentence will not allow this translation.

    Reason #1. Heb 1:2a reveals Yahshua to be the heir of what was created.

    Reason #2. More than 100 Scriptures show it was Yahweh (not Yahshua) who created the heavens and the earth. Heb. 1:2 must agree with the 100 other Scriptures. For a list of these [ask for] our paper, “Who Is the Creator?“

    For these reasons, the sentence in Heb. 1:2b must have originally read like the Diaglott reads today, Yahweh “… in the last of these days spoke to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, ON ACCOUNT OF whom also he constituted the ages; …”

    Another acceptable translation would be, “… a Son, FOR whom he created the world.”

    Many times the King James Version as well as more modern versions translate dia as “for,” “because of,” “therefore” (meaning “for this reason”). For a more detailed layout of the word di' (dia), ask for our paper, “Hebrews 1:2 – Berry.”

    This is not to say the the King's Men purposely mistranslated, nor is this to say they were dishonest. Not at all. On the contrary, they no doubt delivered what they believed to be the correct translation of Heb. 1:2. We must realize, however, that all of the King's Men believed the doctrine of the Trinity (one is three, and three are one). Believing this, they saw no contradiction between this Scripture (as they translated it) and the 100 Scriptures which show that Yahweh the Father is truly and personally the Creator of the heaven and earth.

    There are at least two other Scriptures in which di' should have been translated for, or on account of. These are Col. 1:16-17 and John 1:10. Let us review these Scriptures, then return to our study in the book of Hebrews.

    Colossians 1:16,17

    “For by him [Yahshua] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, … all things were created by him and for him” (Col. 1:16,17 KJV).

    Just as in Heb. 1:2, di' can be translated for, and on account of, as well as by or through. As indicated above, either way is technically correct for this WORD. However, the MESSAGE in this text must decide which is the proper translation. The same is true of the Greek word en (= the English in).

    Since Yahweh is the Creator (Heb. 3:4; Ex. 20:11; Mt. 21:33; Mk. 12:7; Lk. 20:14), and Yahshua is the heir, then Col. 1:16,17 SHOULD TELL THE SAME STORY. Dozens of Scriptures in both Testaments tell us plainly that Yahweh is the Creator, and there is no other El but but him. He alone is the only true El, Eloah, Elohim, and Creator.

    Yahshua and the New Testament writers proved everything by Old Testament Scriptures, therefore New Testament Scriptures should (and originally did) agree with Old Testament Scriptures. The New Testament Scriptures are based on the older ones. This being true, it seems that a more exact reading of Col. 1:16,17, and one which is agreeable to the Greek text, is as follows:

    “For in [en = in, to, unto, as well as by] him were all things created, that are in [en] heaven, and that are on earth, … all things were created on account of [di'] him and for him.”

    John 1:10

    “He [the Light, Yahshua] was in the world, and the ]world was made by him, and the world knew him not” (KJV).

    As we have discovered above, to agree with other Scriptures, and with the context of the message, a more acceptable reading is as follows:

    “He was in the world and the world was made for {di'} [on account of, because of] him, and the world knew him not.”

    Look back to the book of Hebrews.

    Hebrews 1:8-10

    “But unto the Son he sayeth, Thy throne, O G-d, is for ever and ever; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore G-d, even thy G-d, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And thou, L-rd, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the work of thy hands” (KJV).

    As the KJV and the RSV read, this certainly indicates the Son (Yahshua) is the Creator of heaven and earth, which means he not only existed at the time of creation, but was also Deity. Once again, however, the translators evidently did not grasp the true message because they were sold on the doctrine of the Trinity. This translation will not stand the test of other Scriptures. The Moffatt Translation reads as follows:

    “He [Yahweh, verse 5] says of the Son, 'G-d [the Father, Yahweh] is thy throne for ever and ever, thy royal septre is the septre of equity: thou [the Son] hast loved justice and hated lawlessness, therefore G-d, the G-d, has consecrated thee with the oil of rejoicing beyond thy comrades' – and, 'Thou [Yahweh] didst found the earth at the beginning, O L-rd [Yahweh], and the heavens are the work of thy hands; …'” (Heb. 1:8-10, Moffatt).

    Two quotations from the Psalms are included in these verses.

    “Your divine throne endures for ever and ever. You royal sceptre is a sceptre of equity; you love righteousness and hate wickedness. Therefore G-d, your G-d has anointed you with the oil of gladness above thy fellows; …” (Ps. 45:6,7 RSV). It is interesting to read the footnote in the RSV: “Your throne is a throne of God, …” (verse 6). Now for the other quotation.

    “Of Old thou (Yahweh, Verses 1, 12, 18] didst lay the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the work of they hands. They [the heavens and the earth] will perish, but thou dost endure; they will all wear out like a garment. Thou changest them like raiment, and they pass away; but thou [Yahweh] art the same, and thy years have no end” (Ps. 102:25-27 RSV).

    As indicated above [with brackets], these verses speak of Yahweh as Creator – not Yahshua. Yahshua's years did, indeed, come to an end. Not so those of the Father, Yahweh. His years never end. He lives forever; past; present, and future. Usually overlooked are the following points:

    Hebrews Chapter Two

    o   The writer of the
    letter of Hebrews was not only concerned about the creation of the past. He also spoke “of the world to come” – the inheritance of the Saints which is yet future (Heb. 2:5).

    o   Man (mankind) was for a little while made a little lower than the angels (Heb. 2:6,7; Ps. 8:4-8). Yahshua too (the same as other men, was for a little while made lower than the angels (Heb. 2:9).

    o   Everything was originally put in subjection to mankind except the plan of salvation, which was only later developed through Yahshua, the Messiah (Heb. 2:8,9).

    o   Yahshua “tasted death” for everyone, thus witnessing the grace of Yahweh toward all men (Heb. 2:9).

    o   “For it was fitting that he [Yahweh], for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make [
    Yahshua] the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering. For he [Yahshua] who sanctifies and those who are sanctified have all ONE ORIGIN. That is why he [Yahshua] is not ashamed to call them brethern, saying, I will proclaim thy name [Yahweh's name] to my brethern, in the midst of the congregation I will praise thee” (Heb. 2:10-12; Ps. 22:22 RSV).

    Do I detect here a statement showing that Yahshua had the same origin as other men? I believe so. About half of the English versions read this way. The word “origin” is not in the Greek, but is implied evidently. This agrees with other statements made in the verses below.

    o   The children (mankind) share in flesh and blood. Yahshua is likewise of the same nature. This was so he could free his brethern who through fear of death were (are) in lifelong bondage (Heb. 2:14,15).

    o   It is not with angels that Yahweh is concerned, but with the descendants of Abraham, therefore he (Yahshua) had to be made like his brethern IN EVERY RESPECT, so that he might become a merciful high priest (Heb. 2:16,17). Another Scripture speaking of Yahshua, reveals that the spiritual body does not come first (as in a pre-existence). No. The PHYSICAL body comes FIRST, and only later comes the SPIRITUAL body (1 Cor. 15:45,46).

    o   He was tempted in everything as we are (Heb. 2:18). If Yahshua had been Deity while on earth, he would have had no temptations.

    Yahshua was even more faithful in Yahweh's house than Moses was. Every house has a builder. The builder of all things is Yahweh (Heb.3:1-6). To understand all of the book of Hebrews requires careful study.

    The one who wrote it admits it is difficult to understand (Heb. 5:11).

    Did Yahshua Pre-exist As An Angel?

    “For to what angel did Yahweh say, 'Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee?'” (Heb. 1:5).

    The answer is obvious, never at any time, has Yahweh ever said to an angel, “You are my son.” This is emphatically stated, not only here, but in verse 13 as well, “But to what angel has He [Yahweh] ever said, 'Sit at my righthand till I make thy enemies a stool for thy feet?'”

    “For Yahweh never said to an angel, Thou art my Son; today I have begotten thee, …” (Heb. 1:5, New English Bible).

    Review

    If Yahshua pre-existed, he would have necessity have been a spiritual (spirit) being. This creates a problem, however, as a spiritual being can not die. It is an impossibility (Lk. 20:30-35; Deut. 32:40). Scriptures tell us Yahshua was flesh as we are flesh (2 Jn. 7). He had the same origin as his brethern (Heb 2:12 RSV). He really and truly died – ceased to live (Heb. 2:14; Acts 2:23; Eph. 1:20).

    This is powerful evidence that Yahshua did not pre-exist; that he did not live in a former life.” To accept the pre-existence of Yahshua is to accept reincarnation; a superstition of the heathen which is unacceptable to our heavenly Father.

    o   Since Yahweh is the Creator and Yahshua is the heir of that which is created;
    o   Since the physical body comes first and only later the spiritual body;
    o   Since a Spiritual body cannot die;
    o   Since Yahshua was never an angel;
    o   Since Yahshua has the same origin as his brethern;
    0   Since Yahshua was subject to death;

    It seems reasonable to believe that Yahshua pre-existed neither

    oo   Before the foundation of the world, nor

    oo   Before his conception within Mary.

    He did exist in Yahweh's glorious PLAN from before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:5,9-11; John 17:24 RSV).

    SOURCE

    January 12, 2012 at 1:45 am#271852
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 12 2012,10:19)
    Frank,

    Are you able to offer a VALID reason why the Word of God in John 1:1 and 14 cannot possibly be the same person as the Word of God in Rev 19:13?


    Mike,

    How soon you forget! I grow tired of repeating myself over and over again to you and t8 and this will be my last response to you and t8 about anything either of you have to say:

    As I have said MANY times on this forum thread: The “word” in Yahchanan 1:1 is not Yahshua as a pre-existent being that was with his and our Father Yahweh in the beginning, but is Father Yahweh's word and Father Yahweh's word was with Him in the beginning and in turn is Father Yahweh Himself. NOWHERE in Scripture will will you EVER find it recorded or said “Jesus IS the Word!”

    WHO IS THE WORD?

    Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

    “Jesus IS God!”?

    The Name Yahweh

    January 12, 2012 at 2:09 am#271864
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 11 2012,18:45)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 12 2012,10:19)
    Frank,

    Are you able to offer a VALID reason why the Word of God in John 1:1 and 14 cannot possibly be the same person as the Word of God in Rev 19:13?


    Mike,

    As I have said MANY times on this forum thread: The “word” in Yahchanan 1:1 is not Yahshua as a pre-existent being that was with his and our Father Yahweh in the beginning…………


    So in other words, you are completely unable to offer a valid, scriptural REASON?

    I thought so all along. :)

    January 12, 2012 at 2:17 am#271869
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Did Jesus Preexist in Heaven?
    By Servetus the Evangelical

    The institutional church has always proclaimed that Jesus preexisted in heaven. And
    it has concluded that Jesus’ preexistence indicates that he was and is God.
    But in modern times, the idea that Jesus preexisted has been seriously challenged.
    One argument is that if Jesus preexisted as a fully developed personality, that does not
    allow for human development and therefore compromises his being human.
    Luke claims Jesus had a normal human development. He says of Jesus’ childhood,
    “The Child continued to grow and become strong, increasing in wisdom; and the grace of
    God was upon Him” (Luke 2.40). Notice that Luke also distinguishes the Child Jesus
    from God, which always indicates that Jesus was not God. Then Luke adds, “And Jesus
    kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man” (v. 52). How
    could Jesus have increased in favor with God if he was God? William Barclay therefore
    states, “one of the most difficult of all ideas [is] the idea of the preexistence of Jesus.”
    Christians claim that they base their beliefs on the Bible. While the first three gospels
    of the New Testament (NT) contain nothing about Jesus having preexisted, the Gospel of
    John seems to have several important passages that do so. And there are notable texts in
    the Apostle Paul’s letters and the book of Hebrews that do, which we will now consider.
    Paul does not state explicitly anywhere in his NT letters that Jesus preexisted. Thus,
    Karl-Josef Kuschel asserts, “there is no sign of any unambiguous and explicit statement
    about pre-existence in the Christology outlined by Paul.” But most scholars have thought
    that Paul states it implicitly. And Gerhard Kittel observes, “Christological pre-existence
    sayings are a constituent part of the whole of Paulinism.”
    But how did Paul conceive of Jesus having preexisted? Did he think it was a personal
    subsistence or merely a personfication? There is quite a difference.
    James Dunn contends, “There is no good evidence that Jesus thought of himself as a
    pre-existent being” or that Paul thought Jesus either preexisted or possessed deity. Dunn
    claims that much of Paul’s language of preexistence is personified Wisdom language, as
    in “Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God” (1 Corinthians 1.24), and that Paul
    never intended for it to be understood as literal preexistence. Dunn maintains that by the
    time Paul wrote Romans, in the mid-50s, “there is no evidence that Christian thought had
    so far evolved the idea of incarnation, or that the language of preexistence when referred
    to Christ (1 Cor 8:6) would as yet be taken to imply his personal preexistence, or that talk
    of his being ‘sent’ (Rom 8:3) was as yet understood to imply a descent from heaven.”
    Dunn concludes, “Paul was not seeking to win men to belief in a pre-existent being.”
    Regardless of whether or not Jesus preexisted, D.A. Carson logically states, “preexistence
    does not entail deity.” Indeed, Second Temple Judaism regarded certain pious
    men as having preexisted, yet Jews did not think this compromised their monotheism.
    John Knox warns, “the more fully the logic of pre-existence is allowed to work itself
    out in the story [of Jesus], the less important the [his] resurrection is bound to become.”
    Most Christians have thought that Paul implicitly affirms Jesus’ preexistence in 1
    Corinthians 8.9. Therein, he states, “For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    that though He was rich, yet for our sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty
    might become rich.” The common view of this passage has been that the word “rich”
    indicates Jesus’ personal preexistence, and the words “poor” and “poverty” signify him
    abandoning this lofty status at his incarnation. Karl-Josef Kuschel observes, “Traditional
    exegesis has always interpreted this passage in terms of pre-existence Christology and
    incarnation, as have present-day exegetes right across all confessional camps.”
    But Dunn says concerning this passage, “Though he could have enjoyed the riches of
    an uninterrupted communion with God, Jesus freely chose to embrace the poverty of
    Adam’s distance from God, in his ministry as a whole, but particularly in his death” for
    our salvation. Dunn adds, “2 Cor 8.9 is as a vivid allusion to the tremendous personal cost
    of Jesus’ ministry … this self-impoverishment … That Paul intended an allusion to the
    preexistent Christ’s self-abasement in incarnation must be judged unlikely.”
    Until Jesus was thirty years old, he probably had an emotionally rich and fulfilling
    life as the eldest of four brothers and several sisters (Mark 6.3). And he must have had a
    good reputation as the carpenter of Nazareth and its vicinity. But in a most profound and
    untold single act of self-denial, he laid aside this comfortable lifestyle, left home, and
    undertook an itinerant, public ministry of financial poverty and even forfeiture of his life.
    He once told his disciples about himself, “The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air
    have nests; but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head” (Matthew 8.20/Luke 9.58).
    Many Christians have thought that the author of the NT letter of Hebrews presents
    Jesus as having preexisted. For example, he says God “through” Jesus “made the world”
    (Hebrews 1.2). And he further explains of Jesus, “He comes into the world” by God
    giving him “a body” (10.5). Yet this author also relates that at Jesus’ heavenly ascension,
    “He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty [God] on high; having become as much
    better than the angels” (1.3-4). But if Jesus preexisted as God, he always was better than
    the angels and therefore could not later have become so. Dunn concludes that “the author
    of Hebrews has no place in his thinking for pre-existence as an ontological concept.”
    One thing seems to rule out the actual preexistence of Jesus in this letter of Hebrews.
    For him to be Savior and High Priest, he had to be like us in every way except sin. The
    author of Hebrews explains concerning Jesus, “He had to be made like His brethren in all
    things, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest” (Hebrews 2.17). Again,
    this requires that Jesus did not literally preexist, since the rest of us humans did not. It
    thus seems that God created the world “through” Jesus simply by having him in mind.

    January 12, 2012 at 8:00 am#271921
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Pastry @ Jan. 09 2012,22:44)
    Marty!  What you claim seams to somewhat not what Scriptures say.  John talks about who Jesus was before He became flesh, not after…. He came down from Heaven, and He had a glory with His Father BEFORE the world was…… that is not after He was born of Maria… but before

    Jhn 6:38   For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.  

    this is what Jesus is saying, are you going to deny what Jesus said?

    Jhn 17:5   And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    Jesus explains it very nicely, how He wants the glory again which He had before the world was….

    Throughout Johns Gospel ut shows several times, that God sent
    his Son into the world.  If you read all of John you will see that to be true…

    Now Marty, what is Jesus right now?  He is a Spirit Being, and that is what He was before the world was, simple as that…. so why is it so hard to understand that He also was a Logos before He became a man…..

    Peace Irene


    Hi Mrs:
    For starters:

    Please tell me how Jesus came down from heaven?

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    January 12, 2012 at 5:32 pm#271965
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Jan. 12 2012,11:20)
    YAHSHUA: DID HE PRE-EXIST?
    An Explanation Of Our Views
    By Voy Wilks
    10/23/90

    Did the Messiah pre-exist in some form before he was conceived of Mary, the Jewish woman? Many people believe he did, while many believe he did not. Most if not all of these people seem to rely on the same source of information – the Bible, so why isn't there complete agreement, since all read from the same source? There are several reasons for non-conformity, some of which are as follows:

    Background. A person whose church teaches the pre-existence is not likely to question whether this is true or false. Instead, it is accepted as fact. This is true of most religious views. Generally, it is only those doctrines which seem to be “new” which are examined to determine if they are true or false.

    Bias. A preference for or against a doctrine can sometimes prevent a correct analysis of Scripture. This can be caused by a person's background, or by some other consideration. Example: Anti Semitism (hatred of the Jews) can prevent a correct understanding of which is the true day of worship

    Failure. Failure, for whatever reason, to understand the message in Scripture.

    Translation. There is the possibility, in some cases, that the religious views of the translators have influenced their translation.

    There are a number of Scriptures which seem to promote the pre-existence of the Messiah. Surely the most powerful of these is Hebrews 1:2.

    Hebrews 1:1 & 2

    “In many and various ways Yahweh spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he created the world” (RSV).

    This indicates the heavenly Father is supreme.

    (1) As most English versions read, he authorized the Son, Yahshua, to do the actual work in creating the heavens and the earth and all things in them.

    (2) Many believe that Yahshua, in a pre-existent state, was Yahweh's spokesman; a Son spoke for him and did Yahweh's work for him, such as creating the world.

    If either of the statements are true – if Yahshua spoke the world into existence – then certainly the Messiah existed before the world existed. Let us now examine Hebrews 1:1,2.

    What is a spokesman? “One who speaks in the name and on behalf of another or others” (Readers Digest Great Encyclopedic Dictionary, 1975).

    Reviewing Heb 1:1 we see that Yahshua was not Yahweh's spokesman. Instead, the prophets were his spokesmen. Yahweh “spoke to our fathers by the prophets.” Therefore, even if Yahshua pre-existed, he was not the spokesman who contacted “our fathers.” It was, evidently, only in “these last days” that Yahweh “spoke to us by his Son” (Heb 1:1; 1 Pet. 1:20).

    Yahshua the Heir

    “… but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed HEIR OF ALL THINGS, …” (Heb. 1:2).

    What does this say? Yahweh appointed his Son (Yahshua) to be his heir – to inherit “all things.” Please keep in mind: A son does not inherit property which he, himself, has worked for. No. He owns that already. This indicates that Yahshua did not, after all, create the world, since he is the heir to his Father's property. Does this agree with other Scriptures? Indeed, yes. Please note the following evidence:

    “Hear another parable. There was a householder who planted a vineyard, and set a hedge about it, and dug a wine press in it, and built a tower, and let it out to tenants, and went into a far country. When the season of fruit drew near. he sent his servants to the tenants, to get his fruit; and the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first; and they did the same to them. AFTERWARD he SENT HIS SON to them, saying, they will respect my son. But when the tenants saw the son they said to themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him and have his INHERITANCE. And they took him and cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” (Mt 21:33-40 Mk. 12:1-7; Lk. 20:9-16).

    The following points are clear:

    o   The Father (Yahweh) was the householder.

    o   The Father (Yahweh) planted the vineyard.

    o   The Father (Yahweh) set the hedge, built the tower, and dug the winepress.

    o   The Father (Yahweh) made the contract with the tenants; that is Israel (Isa. 5:1-7; Ps. 80:8-19).

    o   The Father (Yahweh) sent his servants (the prophets).

    o   The Father (Yahweh) sent his son (Yahshua).

    o   The son (Yahshua) was the heir of his Father's property (the vineyard with all its improvements).

    o   The Son (Yahshua) was cast out and killed.

    Obviously, Yahshua is both the Son and the Heir; not the owner, nor the householder. True, this is a parable, but in order to teach truth, a parable must agree with prevailing conditions. Other Scriptures – Other Scriptures which are not parables – agree with Hebrews 1:2 that Yahshua is the heir of Father Yahweh's property.

    “For all who are lead by the spirit of Yahweh are sons of Yahweh. … and if children, then heirs, heirs of Yahweh and FELLOW HEIRS WITH the Messiah, …” (Rom. 8:14,17).

    “… for in Messiah Yahshua you are all sons of Yahweh, through faith. For as many as were baptized into the Messiah have put on the Messiah. … And if you are the Messiah's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise” (Gal. 3:26,27,29). So through Yahweh you are no longer a slave but a son and if a son then an heir” (Gal. 4:7).

    We inherit the promise made to Abraham: the kingdom (the world, the vineyard), and everlasting life, because Yahshua is the chief heir. By baptism in his name we, and the ancients, become fellow heirs with the Messiah (Gal. 3:16-19; Titus 3:7; Heb 11:7-10; Acts 20:32; 7:5,6; Rom. 4:13; Eph. 1:3-23; 1 Peter 1:3,4; Rev. 21:5-7).

    Remember the mother of James and John? She asked the Savior to grant that her two sons will set, one on Yahshua's right and one on his left in the Kingdom of Yahweh. Yahshua's reply: (the heavenly Father), being the Creator, is owner of all, while Yahshua (his Son) is the heir.

    “I will tell of the decrees of Yahweh: He said to me, 'You are my son, today I [Yahweh] have begotten you. Ask of me and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession” (Ps. 2:7-9; Heb. 5:5).

    Again, this shows Yahweh as both Father and Creator, and Yahshua as both Son and the Heir. Ephesians 1:3-23 also shows Yahweh to be the Creator, the Father, and the owner of the inheritance. One day Yahshua will receive this inheritance, and make us (the saints, (Jew and Gentile) joint heirs with himself. Again, the following quotation reveals Yahweh as the provider and owner of the inheritance. Yahshua extends to us a share as joint heirs.

    “For every house is builded by someone; but he that built all things is Yahweh” (Heb. 3:4 Bethel Edition).

    These Scriptures are more than enough to confirm Yahweh as Creator and Yahshua his Son will one day inherit his Father's property – his Father's creation.

    By Whom He Made The Worlds

    “Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things,
    BY WHOM also he made the worlds; …” (Heb. 1:2 KJV). The RSV reads, “… through whom he created the world.”

    This very
    clearly states the world was created By the Son of Yahweh. This Son is Yahshua, of course. However, Scriptural evidence noted above indicates Yahweh did the creating, not Yahshua. Are we to believe the apostles and the Gospel writers wrote two ways, sometimes reporting that Yahweh is Creator, and at other times reporting that his Son is Creator? Indeed no.

    More than 100 Scriptures state clearly that Yahweh is Creator and Maker of heaven and earth (Ex. 20:11). Some of these indicate that no other deity exist (Isa. 44:6). No other deity helped him in his creating acts (Neh. 9:6). Except for the angels, he was alone in the creation (Isa. 45:5-18). These are stated clearly – as clearly as Hebrews 1:2 states that Yahshua made the world.”

    What shall we do? Do we cancel (erase, throw out) more than 100 Scriptures so that we can accept Hebrews 1:2 instead? Since this Scripture does not in most English versions agree with the 100, we should carefully examine Hebrews 1:2 and, hopefully, discover why it does not agree.

    The Word “By”

    Yahweh created the world “by” (through) the Son (Heb. 1:2 KJV). The Diaglott says Yahweh created the world “on account of” the Son. Any one of the three (“by,” “through,” or “on account of”) is, technically, a correct translation of the Greek word Di' or Dia. Dia is in the KJV translated several ways, but usually is translated as follows:

    By – 243 times; through – 100 times; for – 106 times; because – 24 times; because of – 29 times; for the sake of – 32 times; etc.

    The King's Men did not translate the WORD di' incorrectly in Heb. 1:2. By or through is a correct translation of the WORD, but ONLY IF THE MESSAGE in the sentence agrees, or allows it. But alas, in this case the message of the sentence will not allow this translation.

    Reason #1. Heb 1:2a reveals Yahshua to be the heir of what was created.

    Reason #2. More than 100 Scriptures show it was Yahweh (not Yahshua) who created the heavens and the earth. Heb. 1:2 must agree with the 100 other Scriptures. For a list of these [ask for] our paper, “Who Is the Creator?“

    For these reasons, the sentence in Heb. 1:2b must have originally read like the Diaglott reads today, Yahweh “… in the last of these days spoke to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, ON ACCOUNT OF whom also he constituted the ages; …”

    Another acceptable translation would be, “… a Son, FOR whom he created the world.”

    Many times the King James Version as well as more modern versions translate dia as “for,” “because of,” “therefore” (meaning “for this reason”). For a more detailed layout of the word di' (dia), ask for our paper, “Hebrews 1:2 – Berry.”

    This is not to say the the King's Men purposely mistranslated, nor is this to say they were dishonest. Not at all. On the contrary, they no doubt delivered what they believed to be the correct translation of Heb. 1:2. We must realize, however, that all of the King's Men believed the doctrine of the Trinity (one is three, and three are one). Believing this, they saw no contradiction between this Scripture (as they translated it) and the 100 Scriptures which show that Yahweh the Father is truly and personally the Creator of the heaven and earth.

    There are at least two other Scriptures in which di' should have been translated for, or on account of. These are Col. 1:16-17 and John 1:10. Let us review these Scriptures, then return to our study in the book of Hebrews.

    Colossians 1:16,17

    “For by him [Yahshua] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, … all things were created by him and for him” (Col. 1:16,17 KJV).

    Just as in Heb. 1:2, di' can be translated for, and on account of, as well as by or through. As indicated above, either way is technically correct for this WORD. However, the MESSAGE in this text must decide which is the proper translation. The same is true of the Greek word en (= the English in).

    Since Yahweh is the Creator (Heb. 3:4; Ex. 20:11; Mt. 21:33; Mk. 12:7; Lk. 20:14), and Yahshua is the heir, then Col. 1:16,17 SHOULD TELL THE SAME STORY. Dozens of Scriptures in both Testaments tell us plainly that Yahweh is the Creator, and there is no other El but but him. He alone is the only true El, Eloah, Elohim, and Creator.

    Yahshua and the New Testament writers proved everything by Old Testament Scriptures, therefore New Testament Scriptures should (and originally did) agree with Old Testament Scriptures. The New Testament Scriptures are based on the older ones. This being true, it seems that a more exact reading of Col. 1:16,17, and one which is agreeable to the Greek text, is as follows:

    “For in [en = in, to, unto, as well as by] him were all things created, that are in [en] heaven, and that are on earth, … all things were created on account of [di'] him and for him.”

    John 1:10

    “He [the Light, Yahshua] was in the world, and the ]world was made by him, and the world knew him not” (KJV).

    As we have discovered above, to agree with other Scriptures, and with the context of the message, a more acceptable reading is as follows:

    “He was in the world and the world was made for {di'} [on account of, because of] him, and the world knew him not.”

    Look back to the book of Hebrews.

    Hebrews 1:8-10

    “But unto the Son he sayeth, Thy throne, O G-d, is for ever and ever; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore G-d, even thy G-d, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And thou, L-rd, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the work of thy hands” (KJV).

    As the KJV and the RSV read, this certainly indicates the Son (Yahshua) is the Creator of heaven and earth, which means he not only existed at the time of creation, but was also Deity. Once again, however, the translators evidently did not grasp the true message because they were sold on the doctrine of the Trinity. This translation will not stand the test of other Scriptures. The Moffatt Translation reads as follows:

    “He [Yahweh, verse 5] says of the Son, 'G-d [the Father, Yahweh] is thy throne for ever and ever, thy royal septre is the septre of equity: thou [the Son] hast loved justice and hated lawlessness, therefore G-d, the G-d, has consecrated thee with the oil of rejoicing beyond thy comrades' – and, 'Thou [Yahweh] didst found the earth at the beginning, O L-rd [Yahweh], and the heavens are the work of thy hands; …'” (Heb. 1:8-10, Moffatt).

    Two quotations from the Psalms are included in these verses.

    “Your divine throne endures for ever and ever. You royal sceptre is a sceptre of equity; you love righteousness and hate wickedness. Therefore G-d, your G-d has anointed you with the oil of gladness above thy fellows; …” (Ps. 45:6,7 RSV). It is interesting to read the footnote in the RSV: “Your throne is a throne of God, …” (verse 6). Now for the other quotation.

    “Of Old thou (Yahweh, Verses 1, 12, 18] didst lay the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the work of they hands. They [the heavens and the earth] will perish, but thou dost endure; they will all wear out like a garment. Thou changest them like raiment, and they pass away; but thou [Yahweh] art the same, and thy years have no end” (Ps. 102:25-27 RSV).

    As indicated above [with brackets], these verses speak of Yahweh as Creator – not Yahshua. Yahshua's years did, indeed, c
    ome to an end    . Not so those of the Father, Yahweh. His years never end. He lives forever; past; present, and future. Usually overlooked are the following points:

    Hebrews Chapter Two

    o   The writer of the letter of Hebrews was not only concerned about the creation of the past. He also spoke “of the world to come” – the inheritance of the Saints which is yet future (Heb. 2:5).

    o   Man (mankind) was for a little while made a little lower than the angels (Heb. 2:6,7; Ps. 8:4-8). Yahshua too (the same as other men, was for a little while made lower than the angels (Heb. 2:9).

    o   Everything was originally put in subjection to mankind except the plan of salvation, which was only later developed through Yahshua, the Messiah (Heb. 2:8,9).

    o   Yahshua “tasted death” for everyone, thus witnessing the grace of Yahweh toward all men (Heb. 2:9).

    o   “For it was fitting that he [Yahweh], for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make [
    Yahshua] the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering. For he [Yahshua] who sanctifies and those who are sanctified have all ONE ORIGIN. That is why he [Yahshua] is not ashamed to call them brethern, saying, I will proclaim thy name [Yahweh's name] to my brethern, in the midst of the congregation I will praise thee” (Heb. 2:10-12; Ps. 22:22 RSV).

    Do I detect here a statement showing that Yahshua had the same origin as other men? I believe so. About half of the English versions read this way. The word “origin” is not in the Greek, but is implied evidently. This agrees with other statements made in the verses below.

    o   The children (mankind) share in flesh and blood. Yahshua is likewise of the same nature. This was so he could free his brethern who through fear of death were (are) in lifelong bondage (Heb. 2:14,15).

    o   It is not with angels that Yahweh is concerned, but with the descendants of Abraham, therefore he (Yahshua) had to be made like his brethern IN EVERY RESPECT, so that he might become a merciful high priest (Heb. 2:16,17). Another Scripture speaking of Yahshua, reveals that the spiritual body does not come first (as in a pre-existence). No. The PHYSICAL body comes FIRST, and only later comes the SPIRITUAL body (1 Cor. 15:45,46).

    o   He was tempted in everything as we are (Heb. 2:18). If Yahshua had been Deity while on earth, he would have had no temptations.

    Yahshua was even more faithful in Yahweh's house than Moses was. Every house has a builder. The builder of all things is Yahweh (Heb.3:1-6). To understand all of the book of Hebrews requires careful study.

    The one who wrote it admits it is difficult to understand (Heb. 5:11).

    Did Yahshua Pre-exist As An Angel?

    “For to what angel did Yahweh say, 'Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee?'” (Heb. 1:5).

    The answer is obvious, never at any time, has Yahweh ever said to an angel, “You are my son.” This is emphatically stated, not only here, but in verse 13 as well, “But to what angel has He [Yahweh] ever said, 'Sit at my righthand till I make thy enemies a stool for thy feet?'”

    “For Yahweh never said to an angel, Thou art my Son; today I have begotten thee, …” (Heb. 1:5, New English Bible).

    Review

    If Yahshua pre-existed, he would have necessity have been a spiritual (spirit) being. This creates a problem, however, as a spiritual being can not die. It is an impossibility (Lk. 20:30-35; Deut. 32:40). Scriptures tell us Yahshua was flesh as we are flesh (2 Jn. 7). He had the same origin as his brethern (Heb 2:12 RSV). He really and truly died – ceased to live (Heb. 2:14; Acts 2:23; Eph. 1:20).

    This is powerful evidence that Yahshua did not pre-exist; that he did not live in a former life.” To accept the pre-existence of Yahshua is to accept reincarnation; a superstition of the heathen which is unacceptable to our heavenly Father.

    o   Since Yahweh is the Creator and Yahshua is the heir of that which is created;
    o   Since the physical body comes first and only later the spiritual body;
    o   Since a Spiritual body cannot die;
    o   Since Yahshua was never an angel;
    o   Since Yahshua has the same origin as his brethern;
    0   Since Yahshua was subject to death;

    It seems reasonable to believe that Yahshua pre-existed neither

    oo   Before the foundation of the world, nor

    oo   Before his conception within Mary.

    He did exist in Yahweh's glorious PLAN from before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:5,9-11; John 17:24 RSV).

    SOURCE


    Frank………..Very good post brother, that is the way i see it also.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………………..gene

    January 13, 2012 at 3:01 am#272075
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Frank,

    I am starting to accept “Yahweh” as a more logical translation than “Jehovah”.

    It is true the that “jah” in “hallelujah” is a form of YHWH, and the word means “praise Jah”. And since the “jah” in that word is pronounced as “yah”, it seems that you may be right about “Yahweh”.

    Thank you for your information about it.

    January 13, 2012 at 3:15 am#272078
    Ed J
    Participant

    Shalom Mike,

    There's only one problem,
    Hebrew has no “W” sound!

    B'shem
    YHVH

    January 13, 2012 at 3:30 pm#272129
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…………I believe Yahweh is more accurate , But Ed j Has a point also. So rather YHVH or Yahweh , either is more accurate then Jehovah in my opinion. Frank uses the word Joshuah for Jesus and that is also more accurate, how ever we all know who is being talked about either way. IMO

    peace and love……………………………………………………………gene

    January 14, 2012 at 12:31 am#272175
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Ed and Gene,

    I don't know if I'm convinced about the w sound claim. It seems that Frank or someone showed information to the contrary a while ago.

    I'm thinking “Yahweh” makes more sense now, but I won't go as far as Frank, disassociating myself from anyone who uses the word “Jehovah”.

    After all, we don't really know for sure.

    peace,
    mike

    January 14, 2012 at 12:39 am#272177
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 14 2012,01:30)
    Mike…………I believe Yahweh is more accurate , But Ed j Has a point also. So rather YHVH or Yahweh , either is more accurate then Jehovah in my opinion. Frank uses the word  Joshuah for Jesus and that is also more accurate, how ever we all know who is being talked about either way. IMO

    peace and love……………………………………………………………gene


    Hi  Bene   …if you change EVEN one letter, it's not the same name; is it?

    If THERE BOTH WRONG, how can one be more accurate than the other?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    January 14, 2012 at 12:42 am#272179
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2012,10:31)
    Ed and Gene,

    I don't know if I'm convinced about the w sound claim.  It seems that Frank or someone showed information to the contrary a while ago.

    I'm thinking “Yahweh” makes more sense now, but I won't go as far as Frank, disassociating myself from anyone who uses the word “Jehovah”.

    After all, we don't really know for sure.

    peace,
    mike


    Hi Mike,

    I challenge Frank to show us some Hebrew words with a “W” pronunciation!  

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    January 14, 2012 at 12:44 am#272181
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Hi Ed,

    Was it Frank who just went through this with you a while ago? Or am I confusing him with someone else?

    January 14, 2012 at 2:32 am#272209
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 14 2012,10:44)
    Hi Ed,

    Was it Frank who just went through this with you a while ago?  Or am I confusing him with someone else?


    Hi Mike,

    I have brought the information about God's Name (YHVH)
    to many here. I believe that is what you are referring to.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    January 14, 2012 at 3:35 pm#272277
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    No, somebody recently posted their own chart of Hebrew letters and the sounds they make. In that chart, there was a “w” sound listed.

    Do you remember what I'm talking about?

    January 16, 2012 at 12:25 pm#272672
    Pastry
    Participant

    Hi all! the reason why the translators used LORD for Almighty God, and not Jehovah, is because they didn't want o mispronounce His name, and used either Almighty God or LORD instead…in all capital letters….. While Lord in the New Testament was used for Jesus…..all titles….Yaweh is the Hebrew word for Jehovah, so using Jehovah is not wrong to use, as far as I understand….The definition for His name is
    The everlasting one
    The self-existing one
    The immortal one
    What makes me wonder why one man comes on hee an knows it better then some tranlstors do,,, I for one do not go what He says….Irene

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