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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • April 30, 2021 at 9:00 am#870418
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: I say Jesus was never a God.

    ME: Scripture Gene,

    Isaiah 45:14 Thus saith the Lord: The labour of Egypt, and the merchandise of Ethiopia, and of Sabaim, men of stature shall come over to thee, and shall be thine:

    they shall walk after thee, they shall go bound with manacles:

    and they shall worship thee, and shall make supplication to thee:

    only in thee is God, and there is no God besides thee.

    15Verily thou art a hidden God, the God of Israel the saviour.

     

    peace and love in Jesus Christ

             

    May 1, 2021 at 1:53 am#870423
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…….First and foremost the name Jesus does not eve appear any where in those scriptures a all.  So you as usual,  force the text,  trying to make it say what in fact it is not saying or even implying.  Thats typical for you, everyone here should know that by now. You quote a text and not only change the wording but the context as well.

    Jesus is not invisible not now or ever has been either,  scripture say no one has seen God at any time,  no scriptures says Jesus was ever invisible not one.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    May 1, 2021 at 9:20 am#870427
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: I say Jesus was never a God.

    ME: SCRIPTURE GENE,

    ISAIAH 45:14 THUS SAITH THE LORD: THE LABOUR OF EGYPT, AND THE MERCHANDISE OF ETHIOPIA, AND OF SABAIM, MEN OF STATURE SHALL COME OVER TO THEE, AND SHALL BE THINE:

    THEY SHALL WALK AFTER THEE, THEY SHALL GO BOUND WITH MANACLES:

    and they shall worship thee, and shall make supplication to thee:

    only in thee is God, and there is no God besides thee.
    15Verily thou art a hidden God, the God of Israel the saviour.

    YOU:

    Carmel…….First and foremost the name Jesus does not eve appear any where in those scriptures a all.  So you as usual,  force the text,  trying to make it say what in fact it is not saying or even implying.  Thats typical for you, everyone here should know that by now. You quote a text and not only change the wording but the context as well.

    Jesus is not invisible not now or ever has been either,  scripture say no one has seen God at any time,  no scriptures says Jesus was ever invisible not one.

    ME: Hi Gene, first and foremost

    THE WORD  “INVISIBLE ” IS NOT IN THAT SCRIPTURE.

    YOU:  Thats typical for you, everyone here should know that by now. You quote a text and not only change the wording but the context as well.

    ME: PRODUCE ONE VERSE FROM ANY OF MY POST WHICH CONFIRMS WHAT YOU SAY,  OR ELSE YOU ARE A

    GENUINE LIAR! 

    ALSO, there’s only 

    ONE SAVIOUR OF ISRAEL:

    JESUS CHRIST.

     

    IN THAT SCRIPTURE GOD THROUGH ISAIAH IS DOING THE TALKING!

    ISAIAH 45:14 THUS SAITH THE LORD:…..only in thee is God, and there is no God besides thee.
    15Verily thou art a hidden God, the God of Israel the saviour.

    NOW ACCORDING TO YOU:

    WHO IS THE GOD MENTIONED, BY GOD  THREE TIMES

    IN THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    May 1, 2021 at 6:36 pm#870430
    gadam123
    Participant

    Yes brother Gene, the name Jesus not is found  in the Hebrew scriptures but NT writers and Christianity started searching Jewish scriptures to place Jesus in those scriptures so that they can prove that they are right in their arguments. One great example is Justin Martyr. If we read his writings especially his “Dialogue with Trypho” clarifies this argument.

    The ‘Word’ in John  1:1 is the same type of imagination by Christianity. Jesus is no where found in the Hebrew scriptures except we force it. Christianity made Hebrew God a Binity, Trinity and more…

    For more information please read the book “Helping Jesus Fulfill Prophecy” by Robert J. Miller.

    May 1, 2021 at 7:31 pm#870432
    Berean
    Participant

    To all

    “THE WORD” (The Son of God) who in the beginning was in the form of God, was made flesh, he lived perfect  life among us and made atonement for the whole world by dying on the infamous wood, but he rose again and he intercedes with the Father and he returns very soon in his own glory and the glory of his Father accompanied by the heavenly host ….
    Who will be able to subsist in his presence on the day of his advent?

    He who has innocent hands and a pure heart; He who does not deliver his soul to a lie, and who does not swear to deceive (Psalms 24: 4)

    God bless

    May 2, 2021 at 1:06 am#870436
    Berean
    Participant

    God bless all

     

    May 2, 2021 at 2:00 am#870437
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  The man Jesus, “became”,  a “new” ,  Creation of God,  the First of the human creation of God to go into the family of God, as a “eternal living”,  “human being” “First place in line of many to follow.  I have never seen a scripture that says Jesus  was the first thing God “ever” created. I am not saying one doesn’t exist , but I have never saw it.

    Gene, in Rev 3:14, Jesus calls himself “the beginning of the creation by God”.  In Proverbs 8, Jesus (wisdom) says “the LORD created me as the first of his works”.  In Col 1, Paul says Jesus was the “firstborn of every creature”.  So it’s not that you haven’t seen these scriptures… it’s that you don’t accept them at face value.  Instead you insert your own understanding into them by switching “first creation” to “new creation”.

    And when you read that the heavens and earth were created by God and through Jesus, you change that in your mind to “new creation” too.  Bottom line, the verses are all right there – you just don’t believe them.

    Gene: The universe was probably the actual first thing God created…

    Scripture says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.  Scripture also says that the sons of God shouted for joy when God created the earth.  That implies that these spirit sons of God (Jesus, Michael, Gabriel, Satan, etc.) were already in existence before God created the physical heavens and earth for man.  And it also aligns well with Prov 8, where Jesus says he was there when God created the earth.

    Gene:  Mike I do like your responses, they do show some good solid reasoning brother.

    Thanks brother. Cheers

    May 2, 2021 at 2:03 am#870438
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam….Again you are absolutely right brother,  all true believers and scholars know that there is no activity of Jesus at all mentioned in the Old Testament no where.  As you said Christianity made our “only” true God,  a binity, trinity,  ect.

    Jesus himself only recognized ‘ONE” true God, saying in prayer,  “this is eternal life, that they might know “YOU” the “ONLY” TRUE GOD” ,  and Jesus Christ who you have sent”.

    And again in scripture,  ” But unto us (true believers) there is but “ONE”  GOD, and one mediator between men and God, “THE MAN” Jesus Christ.

    Blessed are you Adam to truly understand this, its so great to hear your voice again on heaven net. You add great soundness to the word of God our Father,  dear brother.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    May 2, 2021 at 2:11 am#870439
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: Mike, did Jesus serve Peter and His apostles?

    Jesus is a fellow servant of God along with his followers.  That’s why Jesus is a joint heir along with us of God’s graces.  But no, God graciously giving us things is not God being our servant.

    Carmel:  I am serving my son right at this MOMENT IN TIME DOING THE ENTIRE FURNITURE OF HIS HOUSE FOR HIM

    You are graciously giving of yourself to help your son.  You are your son’s BENEFACTOR, not his SERVANT.

    Carmel, God is not the servant of His own servant Jesus.  End of story.

    May 2, 2021 at 2:26 am#870440
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean and All,

    I am moving what Berean said from another thread to here.

    Berean: The Word of God tells us that Jesus is the divine Son of God (John 1: 1), that his origin dates back to the days of eternity (Micah 5)

    ME: The below passage doesn’t even contain the words Jesus, Son of God, or divine. You are giving us your interpretation that “the Word” represents Jesus.

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    Berean, can you discuss the below chapter and the additional passages I am providing?

    1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of THE WORD of life;

    2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his WORD is not in us.

    Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my WORD, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that THE WORD of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

    47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified THE WORD of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

    Phil 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; 16 Holding forth THE WORD of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

    Psalms 119:41 VAU. Let thy mercies come also unto me, O LORD, even thy salvation, according to THY WORD

    81 CAPH. My soul fainteth for thy salvation: but I hope in THY WORD.

    Acts 13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is THE WORD of this salvation sent.

    Ephes 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard THE WORD of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    Ephesians 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is THE WORD of God:

    John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: THE WORDS that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life.

    John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak

    Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away THE WORD out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

    John 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. 34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. 

    John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast THE WORDS of eternal life.

    Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

    Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

    17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

    Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

    Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

    Eph 5:9 For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth

    Hear THE WORD of YHVH,

    Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

    1 John 1: 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

    Isaiah 42: 1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street… 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

    Acts 2: 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Acts 13: 32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

    Berean, it is straightforward biblical fact that in the beginning was THE WORD OF RIGHTEOUSNESS AND ETERNAL LIFE, to which is what our Father IS. ALSO from the beginning it was DECLARED that one man would come and execute that WORD, and we see this man as a firstborn of that WORD who is promised to return and give us that WORD.

    Let’s expand on the above Biblical facts, everyone that doeth righteousness is BORN OF GOD and God has promised to put His Spirit in us to where we will walk in all His ways, for the Spirit is all goodness, righteousness and truth. God putting His Spirit in us causing us to walk in all His ways is being BORN OF GOD and by such there is no sin and therefore no death, only eternal life. This is why Jesus told us that one must be born of the Spirit to enter into the Kingdom of God. This is why Jesus promised that we would be partakers, drinking of the cup of the One Spirit as he does, for God had promised us from the beginning eternal life. This is why Paul tells us in Romans 8 that we are to be joint heirs with Christ where we inherit God’s Spirit, where those that are led by the Spirit of God are then the Sons of God, where those who have the Spirit bearing witness to their spirit are the children of God. John saw the Spirit descend upon Jesus at the river Jordan and testified therein that he was the Son of God. God likewise also testified Jesus was His Son at the river Jordan at the moment the Spirit came to dwell within him, where Jesus said this was needed for him to fulfill all righteousness. Such according to Isaiah was an anointing and a calling to righteousness, and he who doeth righteousness is BORN of God. This Jesus died but he was raised from the dead where on that day he was BEGOTTEN by God where he received the Spirit according to a PROMISE, that PROMISE is THE WORD of God that was from the beginning, righteousness unto eternal life.

    Luke 1: 68 Blessed is the Lord, the God of Israel, Because He did look upon, And wrought redemption for His people, 69 And did raise an horn of salvation to us, In the house of David His servant, 70 As He spake by the mouth of His holy prophets, which have been from the age; 71 Salvation from our enemies, And out of the hand of all hating us, 72 To do kindness with our fathers, And to be mindful of His holy covenant, 73 An oath that He sware to Abraham our father, 74 To give to us, without fear, Out of the hand of our enemies having been delivered, 75 To serve Him, in holiness and righteousness Before Him, all the days of our life.

    Micah 5: 2 And thou, Beth-Lehem Ephratah, Little to be among the chiefs of Judah! From thee to Me he cometh forth to be ruler in Israel, And his comings forth are of old, From the days of antiquity. 3 Therefore he doth give them out till the time She who bringeth forth hath brought forth, And the remnant of his brethren return to the sons of Israel. 4 And he hath stood and delighted in the strength of Jehovah, In the excellency of the name of Jehovah his God, And they have remained, For now he is great unto the ends of earth.

    Berean, I will say it again, it is straightforward biblical fact that in the beginning was THE WORD OF RIGHTEOUSNESS AND ETERNAL LIFE, to which is what our heavenly Father YHVH IS. AS WELL, from the beginning it was DECLARED and was also SPOKEN from ancient of days by the prophets that one man, a son of David (both born in Bethlehem), would one day come and execute that WORD, and we see this man as a firstborn of that WORD who is promised to return and give us that WORD.

    May 2, 2021 at 2:48 am#870441
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    It is going to be you along with many others rejecting Jesus when he returns because you think he is God when he is the Son of Man returning in our Father’s glory. When he sits on his father David’s throne according to the flesh to rule the world, sounds like you will be thinking he is the antichrist.

    Isaiah’s prophecies ARE NOT COMPLETED and it is a SON OF MAN, whom has our ONE GOD THE FATHER’S SPIRIT living in him, who will judged the world, as he is the man ordained by our Father YHVH to do so.

    May 2, 2021 at 2:49 am#870442
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike. Jesus was indeed the beginning of a new creation in mankind, but was not even alive during at the time of the creation,  Jesus is a type a pro-type of the new man, who had the fullness God’s Spirit  “in” him , the first human from mankind, the first of mankind to be resurrected from the dead, the first “man” to receive eternal life. We need to look at him as a new type of us, a reborn man, who was given the Spirit of the Living God and by that Spirit was raised from the grave and given eternal life.  Now if he was given eternal life that obviously means he never had it before right?

    The attribute of Wisdom in proverbs is just that, it is one of the Spiritual attributes God always had. That attribute is seen in all the creation that God made, even Satan has it . It is just one of the “seven spirits of God” , that goes out into all the earth.  It is not now or ever was the anointed man Jesus, even though Jesus does have it, but so does most of God creation have it to one degree  or another.

    Mike the biggest problem here is people “force our text”, to say things that are not “specifically”  written , that is where false teachings come from, we shouldn’t  read things into our texts that are no specifically written in them.

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

     

     

    May 2, 2021 at 3:23 am#870443
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    Hebrews 1 is a great companion to John 1. Hebrews 1 solidifies that it was the Son (not a plan) that was in the beginning and he was with God, his Father. As the exact representation of the Father’s eternal nature, the Son is also God according to essence. The Father is the head of the Son as should be obvious. Because he is a son of the same eternal nature, obviously he would not be created. Always being within the Father in essence from eternity (He “possessed me before His works of old” Prov 8:22), he was at one point, begotten/born from within the Father before the works of creation.

    In Heb 1:10+ we see that the Father further identifies his Son as the LORD (YHVH) that lays the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the works of his hands. Obviously the Son was not alone at the time since Heb 1 already established that the Father created through the Son. We know that the scriptures say that YHVH alone created the world. We also know that the YHVH sends his Son to become the Messiah and therefore YHVH is the Father also.

    I believe that you are clear that there are two different persons who created the world and they are father and son. There was not just one person who created the world, therefore, YHVH Elohim who alone created the world represents two persons who together act as one in the creation of the world. The YHVH Elohim are the Father YHVH, and the Son YHVH. They act as one and therefore you will often see the pronouns and verbs in the singular. That is common speech for two or more persons who act as one.

    For instance:

    Acts 3:4 But Peter, along with John, looked at him intently and said, “Look at us!”
    If you look up the Greek you will see that the verb “looked” is singular although two persons are doing the looking.

    Mark 13:3 And as he sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,

    If you look up the Greek you will also see here that the verb “asked” is singular although there are four people doing the asking.

    And here: Ephesians 5:24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

    There we see that the church which has many members “is subject to”…the church is written as a singular word and uses the singular verb.

    Let it be Mike, find rest in Them who are the YHVH Elohim. The YHVH Elohim alone created the world.

    Be blessed, LU

    May 2, 2021 at 3:41 am#870444
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: BY WHOM ARE ALL THINGS
    See COLOSSIANS 1:16

    all things were created by him, and for him:
     

    HIM= THE SON OF GOD

    BY HIM  : DIA AUTOU

    FOR HIM: EIS AUTON

     

    Berean,

    THROUGH HIM :  DIA AUTOU

    Greek Dia

    Notice how the NET translates the word – 209 times as “through”, 87 times as “by”.

    Compare with the KJV – 241 times as “by”, and only 88 times as “through”.

    Notice the #1 definition of the word… “through”.

    This is not a difference in the meaning of the word… it is a difference in how English was spoken then as compared to how it is spoken now.  For example, in Hebrews 1:1 in the KJV, it says “God spoke BY the prophets“, right?  This doesn’t mean that the prophets were the origin of the words… the mind or creative force behind them.  It means that GOD is the one who spoke, and HE did that THROUGH (or “by means of”) the prophets.  But today we don’t express that meaning with the word “by” like they did when the KJV was written.  Today we express that with the word “through”.  That’s why the NET (and all other modern translations) render that word as “through” in the vast majority of the cases… in almost every case where the KJV renders it as “by”.

    Think it out… today we wouldn’t say “The job was applied for BY the internet” – as if the internet applied for a job.  Instead we’d say, “The job was applied for THROUGH the internet“.  The 16th century use of “by” means the exact same thing as the current use of “through”. So if the KJV said, “The job was applied for BY the internet“, it wouldn’t mean that the internet was the mind or the creative force behind the application.  It would mean exactly what “The job was applied for THROUGH the internet” means today.  Understand?  The KJV was saying that all things were created THROUGH Jesus.  It’s just that back then, it was common to use the word “by” to convey the meaning of “through”.

    For example, “Jim’s letter was written BY typewriter” doesn’t mean the typewriter took it upon itself to write a letter.  And, “Jim’s letter was sent BY mail” doesn’t mean some entity known as the mail decided to sent a letter to someone. It means that JIM wrote a letter and JIM sent the letter to someone else.  The typewriter and the mail were just vehicles that JIM used to accomplish JIM’S task.  JIM is both the letter writer and the letter sender.

    Likewise, when the KJV says that God created all things BY Jesus, it means Jesus was the vehicle through which GOD created all things.

    Your argument is weak and pitiful.  You have only a couple of verses (in the KJV) where you take advantage of the difference in word usage between the 1600’s and today.  On the other hand, I have given many scriptures that CLEARLY identify God as the Creator, and Jesus as someone else (ie: NOT the Creator).  There are dozens of scriptures that speak of God creating the world (including from Jesus himself), yet not one single scripture that says Jesus created anything at all – let alone the heavens and the earth.

    The default meaning of the Greek word “dia” is “through” – which is why it is the top definition in NET, and in Strong’s and Thayer’s as listed below…

    Screenshot (100)

    May 2, 2021 at 4:33 am#870445
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: 1 COR.8:7,8

    But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him   

    BY WHOM ARE ALL THINGS

    This is another great example of how we use different words today to convey the SAME EXACT meaning the KJV was conveying with their words.  Start with the first words… Today we wouldn’t say “TO us there is one God”.  That doesn’t even make sense in current English.  The meaning is that many people considered the many other gods of the world as their God, but AS FOR US (“as far was we’re concerned”), we have only the Father as our God.  That’s why the more recent translations – which don’t use words like “thou”, “thine”, “whence” and “methinks” – translate it as we would speak it today… “yet FOR us there is but one God, the Father”   Look at the all the translations (most of them produced by Trinitarians) that use “FOR us” instead of the KJV’s “TO us”…

    https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/8-6.htm

    The KJV isn’t wrong, it’s just that the KJV’s “to us” meant back then the SAME EXACT THING as we mean when we say “for us” today.  Next up, the KJV’s “of whom are all things”.  Today we convey that SAME EXACT THING with the words “FROM whom all things CAME”. (See the link above again.)  Again, the KJV isn’t wrong, it’s just that the KJV’s “of whom” means what today’s “from whom” means.

    But let those scriptural words sink in, Berean.  For us there is HOW MANY gods?  Just ONE, right?  And who is that ONE God for us?  The FATHER, right?  How many? ONE.  Who?  The FATHER.  Say it again and again to yourself until it sinks in.  Is Jesus the Father?  Nope.  Is Jesus identified as someone other than the Father in the very verse you quoted?  Yep.  So ONE God, the Father… and Jesus isn’t Him.   Berean, how many Gods?  ONE, right?  Who is that one?  The Father, right?  Berean, how many Gods?  Who is that God?  How many?  Who?  How many?  Who?

    The third example “by whom” has already been explained in my last post.  The KJV’s “by whom” means the SAME EXACT THING as “through whom” means to us today. (Again, check the translations in the link above.)

    Berean, who did the apostles pray to in Acts 4?  The ONE who created the heavens, the earth, the sea and everything in them?  YEP.  Were they praying to Jesus?  YES or NO?

    It’s so simple, and you are a bright person.  Stop trying to fight it and just let the scriptures teach you.

    Mark 13:19  King James Bible
    For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

    Berean, who did your Lord Jesus say was responsible for the creation?  Why don’t you believe your Lord?  It’s so simple if you let the scriptures teach you, instead of you trying to teach them.  Stop fighting it.  Your Lord told you who created.  He also told us who our God is…

    John 20:17 King James Bible
    Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    Berean, who does your Lord Jesus say our God is?  Does he say that our God is also his God?  So who is our God then?  Jesus?  Or Jesus’ own God?  Which one did your Lord Jesus clearly tell you?  Berean, who is Jesus’ God?  Who is our God?  Are they one and the same?  What did your Lord Jesus tell you?

    Stop fighting it.  Let the scriptures’ teach you.  Don’t try to teach them.  Cheers

     

    May 2, 2021 at 5:15 am#870446
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  “THE WORD” (The Son of God) who in the beginning was in the form of God

    The form of a god – which Jesus clearly is.  So is Satan, and Michael, and Dagon, and Gabriel, and Asteroth, etc.  But there is only one Most High God OF gods.  Berean, can you tell us who the God of all the other gods is?  Check my last post again.  Who did Jesus say the God of the other gods is. (Hint: Jesus is a god, and there is one who is Jesus’ own God.  Who is that one?  Jesus told you, remember?)

    May 2, 2021 at 5:18 am#870447
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: 1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of THE WORD of life;

    Jodi, which “word” did they touch with their own hands?  Could it be the “word” who rides a white horse in Revelation?

    May 2, 2021 at 5:23 am#870448
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  Mike. Jesus was indeed the beginning of a new creation in mankind…

    Mike the biggest problem here is people “force our text”, to say things that are not “specifically”  written , that is where false teachings come from, we shouldn’t  read things into our texts that are no specifically written in them.

    Gene, is it specifically written that Jesus is a “new” creation?  Scripture says he was the beginning of the creation by God, the first of God’s works, and the firstborn of every creature.  It seems that in this case, you are the one trying to force the text to say things (like “new”) that are not specifically written.  You are the one reading things into the texts that aren’t actually there.

    The last part of your post is very well said.  Apply it to yourself as you’re contemplating adding the word “new” into the text.  Cheers

    May 2, 2021 at 5:44 am#870449
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi, I painstakingly addressed your last post with scriptural truths.  You have responded with a story that has no basis in scriptures.  Eternal nature?  But Jesus says he was the beginning of the creation by God, and that he was created as the first of God’s works… and then rejoiced as he watched God create the earth. God said through Micah (or for Berean, “BY Micah” 😁) that the ruler He would bring forth had his origins in the distant past.  Paul said Jesus was the firstborn of every creature.

    These are scriptures, Kathi.  There isn’t any scripture that speaks of “YHVH the Son”, or Jesus having existed from eternity.  I ask you again…

    Did the author of Hebrews say “he created”, and then identify Jesus as someone other than the “he” to whom he referred?

    Did Jesus say God created the world?

    Did the apostles pray to the Creator, and then clearly identify Jesus as someone other than the one to whom they prayed?

    If Heb 1:10 is the Father telling us that the Son created the heavens and the earth, then it means the Father DIDN’T create the heavens and the earth.  How do you reconcile this?

    Kathi, try to recognize who is speaking scriptural truth here.  I show you scripture that has Jesus himself saying God created, and you respond with, “Well, Jesus knows that they both created.”  That’s not a scriptural answer.  That’s just some crap you pulled out of who knows where.  Show me that Jesus “knew” that they BOTH created.  Show me using scripture. And then show me how you reconcile BOTH of them creating with your claim that Heb 1:10 is the Father talking about Jesus – which would mean that the Father gave SOLE creation credit to the son “YOU (not “we”) laid the foundations of the earth and the heavens are the work of YOUR (not “our”) hands…“

    May 2, 2021 at 5:46 am#870450
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    @Admin

    This posts on this thread are out of sync with the pages.  Please fix.  Thank you.

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