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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • March 28, 2021 at 2:50 am#869966
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…..it has nothing to due with “EQUALITY ” it has to do with “OBEDIENCE ” , to GOD THE FATHER.   JESUS PLAINLY SAID ,

    John 10:29,  ” my Father which gave them me, is “GREATER” than “ALL”. , AND NO MAN is able to pluck them out of my Fathers hand.

    Seems Jesus has a complete different view of who is the greatest in power, then you do.

    Jesus never said this either, … ” All thing are possible with me” did he?  But he did say this, “all thing are possible with God.”    

    Jesus did say this,  ” the Son of ma can do “nothing” of himself,   And again , “not my Will , but “thy” Will be done”. 

    Carmel, did you just happen to forget those scriptures ,  as well as so many others written in our bibles.

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

     

    March 28, 2021 at 3:21 am#869967
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…..Jesus plainly said the Father was greater then he was, written clearly in out scriptures, and said this also , “not my Will, but thy Will be done”  , 

    ‘trying to make scripture say without the Father there is no Son, and therefore no Father , is a lie , scripture says there are many sons of God, God the Father existed from eternity, Jesus came into his existence at the time of his birth on this earth , just like all human being did, through a birth from a womb.

    Jesus clearly said “he could do “nothing” of himself” but “only” what the Father was telling him to do. Jesus was not doing  “his” will, but the will of  God the Father who sent him.  That makes him sub~servant to the Will he was doing , just as it would be with anyone.

    All of Satans servants want to separate Jesus exact identity with the rest of humanity from his own. Because that is the way Satan makes people think they could never be “exactly the Same as Jesus ”  Satan loves ‘trinitarians’ they are his people, who have bought into his lies, hook, line,  and sinker.

    Peace and love to you and yours………gene

    March 28, 2021 at 6:53 am#869968
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @Jodi

    Hi Jodi,

    Well, what about your false accusation.
    You said to me “But IGNORE His WORD prior and afterward in Romans 5 as well as elsewhere????”

    I don’t ignore God’s Word. I certainly accept all of Scripture!!!!
    Jodi, tell me where do I ignore God’s Word?

    March 28, 2021 at 7:33 am#869969
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: That seems to be what you do with creation. The Father gets all the credit for creation, you say because the believers acknowledge YHVH as the creator of heaven and earth in their praise. Do you think that they are saying that Jesus should not be acknowledged also as the creator of heaven and earth? Do you think it is possible that they didn’t yet understand the fullness of YHVH and how Jesus is YHVH their righteousness?

    Yes, I think from the words of the prayer in Acts 4 that the disciples (including Apostles) are CLEARLY identifying the one who should be acknowledged as the Creator of heaven and earth as “Lord”, and identifying Jesus as that Lord’s holy servant, ie: someone completely OTHER THAN the Lord who they acknowledged as the Creator of heaven and earth.

    As for your last question, the term is “Jehovah IS our righteousness”.  It is the name of a city, and also one of the many names of Jesus – the holy servant OF the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and EVERYTHING in them.

    But why do you think that YOU – hundreds of years later – would have a better understanding of who Jesus is in relation to his and our God, Jehovah, than those who followed the actual Jesus during his ministry on earth (or Jesus himself)?  I find it odd that you think you would have a better, more enlightened understanding of these things than they did.

    Either way, what we can learn from the scriptures themselves is that Jesus is the son, spokesman, anointed one, lamb, holy one, prophet, priest, angel, and servant OF the God who created all things.  We strive to be spiritual CHILDREN of God, and SIBLINGS of Jesus. We hope to be BENEFICIARIES of the great things God has in store for us, and JOINT HEIRS of those things with Jesus.

    Kathi, aside from presuming that you know more about “YHVH our Righteousness” than the Apostles who prayed in Acts 4, is there any argument you can give to change the fact that these Apostles and disciples – who saw Jesus with their own eyes, touched him with their own hands, and learned from his own mouth – clearly prayed to the one who created all things, and identified Jesus as someone OTHER THAN that one?

    March 28, 2021 at 7:42 am#869970
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene 

    Proverbs 12:15
    The way of the fool is right in his eyes, But he that listens to counsel is wise.

    Proverbs 16:25
    There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.

    Proverbs 30:12
    There is a race which believes itself to be pure, And which is not cleansed of its filthiness.

    March 28, 2021 at 7:54 am#869971
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: I beleive That THE SON OF GOD HAD IN HIMSELF AS HIS FATHER,THE LIFE( JOHN 1) AND POWER TO CREATE THE WORLD(COLOSSIANS 2:16)

    And I beleive Also That the Son do all things in communion with His FATHER( all in The gospel OF John WE see That)

     

    Berean, you could say that about absolutely any being who has ever existed.  With faith the size of a mustard seed, any of us can tell a mountain to jump into the sea, and it will.  Of course we don’t PERSONALLY have any such power.  That miracle would be done BY God and THROUGH us if it were to occur.  It is the same with Jesus, Michael, Gabriel, Satan, etc.  Not one of these very powerful beings would have enough power to lift a finger (let alone exist) if that power were not given to them by their God, Jehovah.  That’s why Peter talked about the signs and wonders that God did THROUGH Jesus while he was on earth.  That’s why Paul talked about how God spoke to us THROUGH Jesus while he was on earth.  And that’s why it’s said that God – alone and by Himself – created the heaven, the earth, and everything in them… THROUGH Jesus.  We’re not told exactly what “through Jesus” means.  But in Genesis 1:26 (Let US make man in OUR image), God includes His heavenly court in the creation of Adam.  The 25 Trinitarian scholars who produced the NET Bible think that this “participation” could be something as simple as offering praise while God created man (ie: the morning stars who sang and sons of God who shouted for joy when God laid the foundations of the earth).  I agree with them that it could be simply offering praise.  It could be more than that.  Maybe God allowed them to offer suggestions about the number of fingers or eyes or whatever Adam would have.  Maybe creating all things THROUGH Jesus was the same, ie: as simple as offering praise – or including certain input/suggestions.  Who knows?  Anyway, here’s that note from the NET scholars…

    Screenshot (92)

     

    March 28, 2021 at 8:02 am#869972
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene: Berean and LU…….MIKE , has presented it right, just as Jodi and I have, Jesus is and was always sub-servant to God the Father, always was and always will be.  “The son of man can do”NOTHING” of  “HIMSELF”.  Saying,  “I “always do those things that pleases the Father”.  And again, “I have come to do “thy” will, O God.”,  not “HIS” WILL, but the “WILL of him who sent him”. and again,  “the son of man came not to do “HIS” WILL, but the “WILL” of him who sent him’. 

    There are many, many, scriptures that show clearly Jesus is completely subject to the “WILL”  of God the Father,  in everything he ever did” , he was never equal to God the Father, but “COMPLETELY ” subject to him in “ALL” THINGS, even to the point of his death on cross or tree.

     

    Gene, everything you posted here is 100% scriptural.  Well done. 👍

     

    March 28, 2021 at 8:08 am#869973
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    BELIEVE YOU GLORIFY THE FATHER BY LOWERING THE SON, BECAUSE YOU LOWER THE SON, …. ???
    CERTAINLY NOT
    YOU DO NOT GLORIFY NEITHER FATHER OR SON ….
    WHO ARE YOU GLORIFYING THEN ????

    March 28, 2021 at 8:21 am#869974
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike: Who did John the Baptizer come as a witness to?

    Ed:  Christ

    God has had many christs, but I’ll assume you meant Jesus.

    John 1

    6There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

     

    What “light” did John the Baptizer come as a witness to?

     

    John 12:46
    I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in Me should remain in darkness.

     

    John 3

    17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

    19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

     

    What we know… “light” came into the world.  John the Baptizer went out in the wilderness to testify concerning this “light”.  We know that John’s main mission was to prepare the way for the one who was to come after him, namely Jesus. Jesus said he IS the “light” that came into the world.  In one continuous teaching, we learn that God’s Son has come into the world, and “light” has come into the world.

    Ed, is it possible that this “light” that came into the world was Jesus?

    March 28, 2021 at 8:42 am#869975
    Berean
    Participant

    Genesis 1:26

    The truth about THIS verse IS That God speak To HIS SON ALL SIMPLY. BECAUSE THE SON IS HIMSELF THE ONE WHO IN THE BIGINNING WAS WITH GOD AND WAS GOD ….

    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

     

     

    March 28, 2021 at 8:43 am#869976
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: Mike

    BELIEVE YOU GLORIFY THE FATHER BY LOWERING THE SON, BECAUSE YOU LOWER THE SON, …. ???
    CERTAINLY NOT
    YOU DO NOT GLORIFY NEITHER FATHER OR SON ….
    WHO ARE YOU GLORIFYING THEN ????

     

    In what way have I “lowered” the Son?

    Scripture says son of the Most High, so I say son of the Most High.

    Scripture says holy servant of God, so I say holy servant of God.

    Scripture says prophet of God, so I say prophet of God.

    Scripture says priest of God, so I say priest of God.

    Scripture says our God is also Jesus’ God, so I say our God is also Jesus’ God.

    Scripture says Jesus prays to and worships the Most High God, so I say Jesus prays to and worships the Most High God.

    Scripture says Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God, so I say Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God.

     

    So in what way am I lowering Jesus?  Maybe you should be asking why YOU are worshipping the creation instead of the Creator. Do you think that glorifies your Creator… OR His holy servant Jesus?

    March 28, 2021 at 8:51 am#869977
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  Genesis 1:26

    The truth about THIS verse IS That God speak To HIS SON ALL SIMPLY. BECAUSE THE SON IS HIMSELF THE ONE WHO IN THE BIGINNING WAS WITH GOD AND WAS GOD ….

    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

     

    Berean, how many scriptures are there that include the words “God created” or “Jehovah created”, etc?  Dozens?

    How many scriptures are there that have the phrase “Jesus created” or “the Son created”, etc?  Zero? (Actually there is one… John 2:15.  There we learn that Jesus “made/created/fashioned” a whip out of cords.)

    But it’s pointless talking more about it, since I’ve already exposed your belief with the prayer in Acts 4, right?  There is one who created the heaven, the earth, the sea, and EVERYTHING in them.  Jesus is the holy servant OF that one.  End of story.

    March 28, 2021 at 9:32 am#869978
    Berean
    Participant

    YOU FORGET THAT JESUS IS “THE WORD” THAT IN THE BEGINNING WAS WITH GOD AND WAS GOD ……
    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    March 28, 2021 at 9:45 am#869979
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said: Kathi, aside from presuming that you know more about “YHVH our Righteousness” than the Apostles who prayed in Acts 4, is there any argument you can give to change the fact that these Apostles and disciples – who saw Jesus with their own eyes, touched him with their own hands, and learned from his own mouth – clearly prayed to the one who created all things, and identified Jesus as someone OTHER THAN that one?

    I do believe that the Apostles in Acts 4 identified Jesus as the Branch spoken about in Jeremiah who was to be called YHVH our Righteousness.

    Btw, you can be a first hand witness of Jesus walking on the earth, seeing the miracles done by Him and in His name, and still miss the fact that He was the Messiah and even kill Him.

    Do you believe that the apostles claim someone other than Jesus to be their righteousness? Do you believe that the apostles of Acts 4 claim that by some other name than the name of Jesus’ by which we must be saved?

    12Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

    Be blessed, LU

    March 28, 2021 at 11:33 am#869981
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    First and foremost would you have the decency to PRODUCE GENUINE SCRIPTURES NOT

    YOUR OWN CORRUPTED VERSIONS, PLEASE?

    YOU: Carmel…..it has nothing to due with “EQUALITY ”

    it has to do with “OBEDIENCE ” , to GOD THE FATHER.

    ME: According to scripture, it is not always  THE SON OBEYS THE FATHER but also

    THE FATHER OBEYS THE SON!

    READ HEREUNDER! 

    John16:7 But I tell you the truth: it is expedient to you that I go:

    for if I go not,

    the Paraclete will not come to you;

    but if I go, I will send him to you. 

    who obeys who Gene?

    Read again Gene the TRUTH OF

    EQUALITY AND HARMONY BETWEEN 

    THE FATHER AND THE SON

    John15:26 But when the Paraclete cometh,

    whom I WILL SEND you from the Father,

    the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father,

    he shall give testimony OF ME.

    Gene, Did you get that?

    THE FATHER OBEYED THE SON AND

    HE SENT THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO GIVES TESTIMONY OF

    JESUS CHRIST NOT OF THE FATHER.

    WHY?

    OBVIOUS ONLY JESUS CHRIST REVEALED AND  MANIFESTED GOD THE FATHER ON EARTH!

    GODMAN ON EARTH! 1John5:20.

    KEEP ON READING:

    John16:14He shall glorify ME; (not the Father)

    because he shall receive of MINE, and shall shew it to you.

    15All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine.

    Therefore I said, that he shall receive of mine, and shew it to you.

    Equality and harmony between

    THE FATHER one  THE SON 

     

     YOU: JESUS PLAINLY SAID ,

    John 10:29,  ” my Father which gave them me, is “GREATER” than “ALL”. , AND NO MAN is able to pluck them out of my Fathers hand.

    Seems Jesus has a complete different view of who is the greatest in power, then you do.

    No Gene, the above is not genuine scripture

    John10:24 The Jews therefore came round about him, and said to him: How long dost thou hold our souls in suspense?

    If thou be THE CHRIST (NOT A CHRIST Gene, and Mike) tell us plainly. 25Jesus answered them: I speak to you, and you believe not: the works that I do in the name of my Father, they give testimony of me. 26But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep. 27My sheep hear my voice: and I know them, and they follow me. 28And I give them life everlasting;

    and they shall not perish forever,

    and no man shall pluck them out of MY HAND.

    29That which my Father HATH GIVEN ME, (PRESENT PERFECT Gene, PRE-EXISTENCE OF JESUS) IS GREATER THAN ALL: and no one can snatch them out of 

    THE HAND OF MY FATHER.

    30I and the Father are one.

    GOT IT Gene? NO YOU DON’T

    THE HAND OF JESUS AND THE HAND OF THE FATHER ARE 

    ONE

    EQUALITY, HARMONY and ONENESS OF 

    THE FATHER AND THE SON!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    March 29, 2021 at 3:35 am#869985
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……pure blasphemy, The Father does not “obey” the son,  but the Son obeys the Father,  if you don’t understand that it is completely useless to even speak to you about this subject. Because God grants our requests,  in no way means we are “equal ” to him,  the same thing applies to Jesus and disciples and all others to.   

    YOU are on dangerous ground Carmel in my opinion, be careful.

    peace and love to you and yours and………gene

    March 29, 2021 at 3:47 am#869986
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike ……Well put,  they take one scripture that can be taken different ways and use that as their only teaching , when hundreds of other scriptures show it different ,  they are not seeking the truth at all, but are indoctrinated into their  churches teachings, and will not even consider THE HUNDREDS OF OTHER SCRIPTURES  where our bible texts proves them wrong.

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

    March 29, 2021 at 4:42 am#869988
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: I do believe that the Apostles in Acts 4 identified Jesus as the Branch spoken about in Jeremiah who was to be called YHVH our Righteousness.

    The Apostles in Acts 4 identified Jesus as the holy servant of the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.

    LU: Do you believe that the apostles of Acts 4 claim that by some other name than the name of Jesus’ by which we must be saved? 

    John 3:16

    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    It was GOD who gave His Son as a sacrificial lamb through which the rest of us can be saved.  It was GOD who determined that those who believe in the servant He sent can be saved through the name of that servant. That’s what makes Jesus the mediator BETWEEN God and mankind. (Ie: not “God”, not “mankind”, but one who mediates BETWEEN those two entities.)  So yes, I’m sure that the Apostles in Acts 4 knew that Jesus is the only name given by God through which mankind’s sins can be atoned, allowing them to be accepted as spiritual children of God. (John 1:12-13)

    March 29, 2021 at 4:56 am#869989
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene: Carmel……pure blasphemy, The Father does not “obey” the son,  but the Son obeys the Father,  if you don’t understand that it is completely useless to even speak to you about this subject. Because God grants our requests,  in no way means we are “equal ” to him,  the same thing applies to Jesus and disciples and all others to.   

    YOU are on dangerous ground Carmel in my opinion, be careful.

    John 13:16

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

    In Carmel’s reasoning, if a master gives his servant a gift, the master is all of a sudden the servant’s servant.  If he that sent gives the one he sent some shoes for the journey, the sender suddenly becomes the slave of the one he sent.  Pure nonsense. 🙄

    March 29, 2021 at 7:10 am#869990
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike….I complete agree with on that.  What Carmel shows is how much , his trinitarian beliefs have a grip on his thinking,  and how little he actually understands the truth. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours………..gene

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