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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • March 14, 2021 at 9:54 am#869730
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…..wrong again , what Jesus meant when he said “he and the Father are one,”, was he was in agreement, with the Father, because he did everything the Father was telling him to do.  So they were acting, as one, the same could be said by anyone who is  sent and doing , God the Fathers will.  He also could say., “I”, came not to do “MY WILL” but the  “WILL” of the one who sent me.  He could also say me and the one who sent are one also.

    God the Father has put “all things under all of our human feet, that is created” read this , it might help you.
    what is man that you visit him,  for you have made him a ‘little” lower then the angels, you have given him (mankind) glory and honor, you have put “ALL THINGS” UNDER HIS FEET (mankind’s feet) , in that he (God) says “ALL THINGS ” there is “NOTHING” that is not under his (mankind’s) feet.
    Jesus is one of us “mankind” ,  was he not made a “little lower” then the Angels too, was not he raised in Glory and honor himself too, was not all thing placed under he’s feet too? ,  did he not have to suffer death just as we do?,  scripture shows Jesus as a human being just like us,  you move Jesus away from his human roots and creation,  you are of those who drive a wedge between him and us, his brothers and sisters, just because he is the first to achieve the Goal God the Father has in mind  for all mankind.
    Berean …you are not speaking the truth about “the man Jesus”, but speaking what you have been taught by fallen Christianity. 2ths2 . it’s all there for those who have eyes to see.

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

     

    March 14, 2021 at 10:14 am#869731
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    AS USUALLY, YOU ONLY SEE ONE SIDE OF TWO SIDES.
    1- THE SON IS DIVINE AND HAS PRE-EXISTED … EVERYTHING WAS DONE BY HIM IN HARMONY WITH HIS FATHER.
    2- HE WAS MADE MAN AND IN HIS LIFE OF MAN, HE CONTINUED TO GIVE AN EXAMPLE OF OBEDIENCE OF LOVE FOR GOD AND HIS NEXT BY BEING IN CONSTANT COMMUNION, THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT, WITH HIS HEAVENLY FATHER (EXACTLY AS WE SHOULD DO …)
    UNTIL DEATH, DEATH OF THE CROSS …

    Wherefore also God hath exalted him exceedingly, and hath given him the name which is above all names,

    2:10 that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow in the heavens, in the earth and under the earth,

    2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father (PHILIPPIANS 2)
    AMEN
    GOD BLESS YOU

    March 14, 2021 at 11:14 am#869732
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene, a PERSON rides a horse in Revelation.  That PERSON has one of his many names written on his robe.  That name is “The Word of God”.  In Revelation 19, John 1, and 1 John 1, “the Word” is not just a spoken word, but the name/title of a PERSON.  In John 1, this PERSON called “the Word” became flesh and dwelled among man on earth -and John the Baptizer testified in the wilderness about him. In 1 John 1, this PERSON  called “the Word” was seen by their own eyes and touched by their own hands – so clearly not a literal spoken word.  And in Revelation, this PERSON rides a white horse and does battle against the beast and his armies.

    So Gene, in your understanding, can a spoken word actually become (not “come to be IN” – as you twist it to say) a flesh human being?  Can a spoken word ride a horse and do battle?  Can a spoken word be seen by human eyes and touched by human hands? If not, then your understanding doesn’t align with scripture.  It’s time you amend your understanding.

    March 14, 2021 at 11:18 am#869733
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Mike and all……The”WORD” OF GOD was and is Expression of God himself and represent who he is, just as your words comes from you and represents who “you” are. 

     

    ME: Again Gene you put God in the same basket as

    CORRUPTED MORTAL FILTHY AND USELESS HUMAN BEINGS!

    Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

    9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth,

    so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.

    10And as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return no more thither, but soak the earth, and water it, and make it to spring, and give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

    11So shall my word be,

    which shall go forth from my mouth:

    it shall not return to me void,

    but it shall do whatsoever I please,

    and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.

    Now Gene, tell us something about your words please! 

    TELL US WHAT DOES YOUR WORD DO!

    By the way 

    NOT LIES!

    YOUR WORDS Gene, ARE NOTHING,  YOU PRONOUNCE THEM, AND THEY END UP WITH THE WIND.

    GOD’S WORD IS SPIRIT. 

    THE MOMENT HE PRONOUNCES THEM HE CREATES IMMEDIATELY WHAT HE WANTS. IT’S THERE IN FRONT OF HIM.

     

     

    YOU:   ““the word I am telling you are , NOT “MY” WORDS, but the WORDS of him who sent me.

     That alone should tell anyone that Jesus himself is not God, or his word either.

    YOUR WORDS  ABOVE GENE ARE LIES AND TWISTED WORDS!

    YOU USED THE PLURAL FOR YOUR OWN INTEREST and YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED IN THE TRUTH AT ALL SINCE YOU NEVER PRODUCED THE ACTUAL SCRIPTURE SPECIFCALLY!

    THIS IS THE RIGHT SCRIPTURE Gene!

    John14:24 He that loveth me not, keepeth not MY WORDS

    IN THE ABOVE VERSE Gene, Jesus IN ORDER TO MAKE AS AWARE OF THE TRUTH, FIRST referred to HIS TEACHING and He used the plural, AND THEN HEREUNDER  IN THE SAME VERSE, HE USED THE SINGULAR! READ:

    And THE WORD which you have heard,

    is not mine; but the Father’s who sent me.

     OK? JESUS USED THE SINGULAR AND HE REFERRED TO

    HIS SPIRIT and He Himself asserted  that 

    HE IS “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, A SPIRIT SENT FROM THE FATHER.

    NOW LET’S READ

    John12:44But Jesus cried, and said:

    He that believeth in me, doth not believe in me,

    but in him that sent me.

     45And he that seeth me, seeth him that sent me. 

    The above Gene is a clear SCRIPTURE which confirms that there ‘s no difference at all

    between GOD THE FATHER and JESUS!

    46I am come a light into the world; that whosoever believeth in me, may not remain in darkness. 

    47And if any man hear MY WORDS, and keep them not, I do not judge him:

    48He that despiseth me, and receiveth not MY WORDS,

    hath one that judgeth him;  (ATTENTION Gene)

    THE WORD (Jesus the Son of Man) that I have spoken,

    the same shall judge him in the last day.

     

    JESUS’ OWN WORDS ABOVE ARE CLEAR GENE I’M AFRAID:

    “THE WORD” IS Jesus the Son of Man and He

    shall judge those who despises and rejects Jesus’ OWN WORDS.

     49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father who sent me,

    he gave me commandment what I should say,

    and what I should speak.

    ANSWER this Gene:

    WHEN DID THE FATHER GIVE HIS  COMMANDMENT TO JESUS?

    I AM ANXIOUS TO HEAR 

    YOUR WORD

    DENYING THE PRE-EXISTENCE OF JESUS’ SPIRIT.

     50And I know that his commandment is life everlasting.

    The things therefore that I speak, even as the

    Father said unto me, so do I speak.

    Gene, IS THERE ANY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE FATHER’S WORDS AND JESUS’ WORDS?

    JESUS’ WORDS ARE THE FATHER’S, and THE FATHER’S WORDS ARE JESUS’ WORDS!

    THE PURE REASON THAT JESUS IS

    “THE WORD” spoken of God

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    March 14, 2021 at 12:17 pm#869734
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Berean…..wrong again , what Jesus meant when he said “he and the Father are one,”, was he was in agreement, with the Father, because he did everything the Father was telling him to do.  So they were acting, as one, the same could be said by anyone who is  sent and doing , God the Fathers will.

    Read Hereunder Gene, NOW:

    John17:1THESE things Jesus spoke, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said:

    Father, the hour is come, glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee.

    ARE THEY ONE Gene?

    tell us now your understandings!

    John17:5 And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself,

    ARE THEY ONE Gene?

    with the glory which I had,

    before the world was, with thee.

    ARE THEY ONE FROM ETERNITY Gene? 

    Now they have known,

    that all things which thou

    hast given me,

    ( PRESENT PERFECT TENSE; COMMENCED IN THE PAST AND CONTINUED IN THE PRESENT, PRE-EXISTENCE OF JESUS)

    are from thee:

    ASSERTED HEREUNDER:

    John17:9 Because THE WORDS ( PLURAL, THE GOSPEL) which thou gavest me, I have given to them; and they have received them, and have known in very deed that

    I came out from thee, (PRE-EXISTED ONE WITH THE FATHER)

    and they have believed that thou didst send me. 

    John17:10 I pray for them: I pray not for the world,

    but for them whom thou HASTH GIVEN me:

    AGAIN Gene, present perfect tense, Jesus was given His apostles before he came down from heaven 

    because they are thine: 

    10And all my things are thine, and thine are mine;

    ARE THEY ONE Gene, from eternity?

    and I am glorified in them.

    WHO IS  GLORIFIED 

    BOTH IN THE THINGS OF GOD AND OF HUMANS Gene

    GODMAN?

    John 17:22 And the glory which thou HASTH GIVEN me,

    Again present perfect, Jesus’ pre-existence!

    I have given to them; that they may be one,

    as we also are one:

    ARE THEY ONE

    John17:24 Father, I will that where I AM,

    Jesus is eternally ONE WITH THE FATHER

    THE EMBODIMENT OF GOD BEFORE THE WORLD WAS! IN

    JESUS CHRIST

    GODMAN 

    they also whom thou hast given me may be with me; that they may see my glory which thou

    hast given me,

    PRESENT PERFECT TENSE; JESUS PRE-EXISTENCE AS THE PHYSICAL EMBODIMENT OF GOD!

    THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD!

    ANSWER Gene, WHAT IS THE HEAD WITHOUT THE BODY  isn’t it just a SKULL or 

    THE BODY WITHOUT THE HEAD isn’t it just a TRUNK?

    ARE THEY ONE THEN???

    because thou hast loved me BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    March 15, 2021 at 4:00 am#869736
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…..being called something, do not mean you are the actual thing “yourself” , Jesus is called the word of God because he speaks to us God the fathers words.  That is not saying Jesus is “himself” God the fathers very words,  he acting as a “mediator” Tells us what God the Father says.
    “But unto US (true believers) there is but “ONE” God And ONE “mediator”,  between God and men, the “MAN” Jesus the anointed one.
    Mike what part of that you don’t understand?  Jesus the man or son of man  is called the word of God, because he like all the Prophets did, brings to us the words of God the Father, no prophet himself was the actual words of God themselves, that includes Jesus also.  

    Mike where it say the word (of God) became flesh,  is not saying Jesus “IS”, the word of God himself, it is saying Gods prophetic words spoken yo us by his His former Prophets became  “flesh”, the “flesh”   man Jesus.  it is not saying Jesus himself became the words of God himself , but the fulfillment of God word , was the flesh man Jesus.  Get it?
    God and his own word are the exact expression of himself, just as you and your words are, no difference.
    Jesus spoke to us God the Fathers word not “his’’ words but What God the Father told him to say to us.

    Hear what Jesus himself say regarding the words he was telling us.  “The words I am telling you, are “NOT MY WORDS” but the “WORDS” OF HIM THAT SENT ME. Just that simple, nothing complicated about it. 

    Why would he say that those words he was telling us were not “his words”  , if he himself was those very words himself.  Jesus was a messenger and told us God the Fathers words not “his” words.

    Peace and love to you and yours………..gene

     

     

    March 15, 2021 at 5:44 am#869737
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Ed J,
    I asked Berean to show how a handful of passages fit his doctrine, for I say that those passages prove his doctrine is false.

    I asked him to discuss those passages directly and HE DID NOT, instead he gave me two new passages to prove his doctrine is correct.

    I took those passages that he gave and applied them to other passages to reveal that he interprets those passages wrong. I then additionally applied all of those to my original ones as they indeed all fit together to prove my point.

    His last response since then was to speak to my denial of the only begotten Son’s divinity. Which is just another instance of Berean refusing to discuss direct scriptures I have given, where I speak to the divine nature of the Son of God.

    So let’s get this straight Ed J, you like to give support to a person who IGNORES scriptures, even when they are directly asked to speak to them, and discredit another for speaking to ALL scripture and giving multiple passages to back what they say?

     

    March 15, 2021 at 6:27 am#869738
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi…..Amen to that, that is exactly what they do. they do not deal with the scriptures we have quoted to them , they just roll over them as if they were not even in their bibles, or just mean nothing to them. That’s how we can tell they are not of the truth , or they would at least truthfully consider them.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    March 15, 2021 at 6:37 am#869739
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel ….You still bounce all over the place changing parts of scriptures, miss quoting them , add your Carnal thoughts into them , making long post trying desperately to throw people off from finding the truth out.
    You have been completely over taken by a deceiving Spirit, causing you to do that> IMO, my hope is that God will remove that Spirit that has deluded your mind, and open your eyes to the real truth.

    Peace and love to you and yours…………gene

    March 15, 2021 at 7:20 am#869742
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    Thanks for tying your last post to me back to the main point of our discussion.

    Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

    The “host” of them is speaking to the whole of creation, all that He had made that we read in Genesis 1.

    Tsaba – hosts

    that which goes forth, army, war, warfare, host

    army, host

    host (of angels)

    of sun, moon, and stars

    of whole creation

    Your stance is that the creation of the celestial messengers is held alongside when God created the sun, moon, and stars.  Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. I don’t find that convincing, and as I said the “hosts” of Genesis 2:1 is them all, as in ALL the hosts of the heaven and earth within the creation of Genesis chapter 1.

    My understanding is that you see Jesus as existing as the same kind of being that our heavenly Father is, and that he is His only Son in that manner. You believe the angels (Sons of God) were created after Jesus.

    But for me, even if it were true that God’s Sons the angels, were created towards the beginning of the creation we read in Genesis, that doesn’t change the fact that scripture tells me directly that he didn’t exist before his birth on earth. Moving forward discussing this topic I’d like to stick with what we can prove from scripture. I will not take us down a rabbit hole again on this topic by talking about ideas formed from certain passages. I will only speak to the direct truth given from scriptures (the sum of them all where there are no contradictions).

    I’ll post again soon discussing specifically the passages you mentioned where I see that your interpretations to those create contradictions.

    Thanks again for brining us back to the topic at hand!

    March 15, 2021 at 7:34 am#869743
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Lu,

    YOU: Where is Jesus’ body now, that was born of Mary?

    ME: Lu, Scriptures hereunder are clear enough where Jesus’ body “THE WORD” made Flesh is;

    To be clear, THE BODY furnished by the Father; THE SON OF MAN;

    NOT THE SON OF GOD OF THE HOLY GHOST/OF MARY.

     

    Colossians 3:1 Therefore, if you be risen with Christ, seek the things that are above; where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God:

    Acts 7:54  55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looking up steadfastly to heaven, saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God. And he said: Behold, I see the heavens opened and,  THE SON OF MAN standing on the right hand of God. 

    Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, (by whose grace you are saved,) 6And hath raised us up together, and hath made us sit together in the heavenly places, through Christ Jesus.

    Daniel 7:13

    13I beheld therefore in the vision of the night, and lo, one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and he came even to the Ancient of days: and they presented him before him.

    14And he gave him power, and glory, and a kingdom: and all peoples, tribes and tongues shall serve him: his power is an everlasting power that shall not be taken away: and his kingdom that shall not be destroyed.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    March 15, 2021 at 8:26 am#869744
    carmel
    Participant

    HI Gene,

    YOU:Carmel ….You still bounce all over the place changing parts of scriptures, miss quoting them ,

    ME: Don’t you have the decency to be specific NOT JUST USELESS BLA, BLA ad BLA???

    TILL YOU DO SO MINE STANDS AS TRUTH!

    YOU:add your Carnal thoughts into them , making long post trying desperately to throw people off from finding the truth out.

    ME: THE ABOVE IS  A PROOF OF YOUR POOR REASONING AND LACK OF UNDERSTANDING OF SCRIPTURE SINCE YOU NEVER SPECIFICALLY PRODUCED ONE SENTENCE AND CONTRADICTED ME USING SCRIPTURE!

    HAVE A GO Gene, WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID OF?

    THAT  SPIRITUALLY SPEAKING, YOUR LIES AND POOR MATURITY  WITH EVERY RESPECT BE REVEALED!

    YOU: You have been completely over taken by a deceiving Spirit, causing you to do that> IMO

    DOING WHAT Gene? YOUR OPINION IS VOID UNLESS YOU BE SPECIFIC, IT IS

    You THAT has been completely over taken by a deceiving Spirit, causing you to do that> IMO

    YOU: my hope is that God will remove that Spirit that has deluded your mind, and open your eyes to the real truth.

    ME: YOUR ONLY HOPE IS THAT I STOP COMMENTING ON YOUR POSTS SINCE YOU ARE PREOCCUPIED AND SPEECHLESS! GET THIS CLEAR Gene,

    INTO YOUR POOR CARNAL MIND THAT UNLESS YOU BE SPECIFIC IN YOUR COMMENTS, IN THE TRUTH

    YOU ARE NEITHER COMMENTING REGARDING MY POSTS NOR BEING COMMUNICABLE AT ALL SIMPLY BEING VOID NATURALLY!!!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    March 15, 2021 at 9:58 am#869745
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU: I don’t believe in the life of the “soul” after death.
    1 Thess. 5:23 tells us that the human being is made up of spirit, soul and body
    It’s 3 things are inseparable …..

    May the God of peace himself sanctify you entirely, and may your whole being, spirit, soul and body,

    be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ! (1 Thess.5:23)

    ME:The above is a clear message while we, as a whole being on earth, in SPIRIT, SOUL, and BODY, at  Jesus Christ coming we be kept blameless.

    The above does not refer to humans after death, but while they are A WHOLE BEING ON EARTH!

    YOU:When we die, our whole being dies: body, soul and spirit are no longer alive

    No I’m afraid for the simple reason that humans are formed not in ONE SAME  PROCESS!

    But IN THREE SEPARATE PROCESSES!

    The fact that WE ARE in the last process of spiritualizing our WHOLE BODY and FOR THE FIRST TIME INTEGRATE AND BECOME ONE ALL SPIRITUAL  IN CHRIST, THE ONLY HUMAN BEING ON EARTH THAT HE CAME OUT FROM GOD THE FATHER, FOR THE HUMAN RACE SAKE AND HE SPIRITUALIZED HIS FLESH BODY AND INTEGRATED IT WITH THE HOLY GHOST, THE LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT, FIRST BY THE END OF HIS THREE YEARS OF HIS MISSION, AND THEN GLORIFIED IT  IMMEDIATELY ON HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS IN

    JESUS CHRIST, John 13:31,32, John4:36,37, John17:1

    MORE TO COME

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    March 15, 2021 at 10:03 am#869746
    Berean
    Participant

    God bless all

    March 15, 2021 at 10:45 am#869747
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Carmel

    JESUS CHRIST, John 13: 31,32, John 4: 36,37, John 17: 1

    I don’t understand where you are coming from

    What I wrote to you last time I keep it

    THE SOUL THAT SIN IS THE ONE THAT SHALL DIE
    EZÉCHIEL 18:20
    ONLY GOD IS ETERNAL

    March 15, 2021 at 1:47 pm#869748
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @Jodi

    You’re welcome.

    You said:

    My understanding is that you see Jesus as existing as the same kind of being that our heavenly Father is, and that he is His only Son in that manner. You believe the angels (Sons of God) were created after Jesus.

    That is correct, Jodi. I also believe that the Son, according to the flesh, did not exist until the conception in Mary. He existed according to the spirit eternally in the essence of God.

    I look forward to your response to my previous post.

    Have a great week! LU

    March 15, 2021 at 1:47 pm#869749
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Good words!

    March 15, 2021 at 1:48 pm#869750
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    I agree that Jesus is in his glorified body at the right hand of the Father.

    Blessings, LU

    March 16, 2021 at 3:47 am#869754
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Lu…..that scripture says not that Jesus is the only song of God, meaning God has no other Sons,  no it is saying he was the only one in and of humanity, that God himself , provided the DNA through a process of inter coarse, in a human women. Therefore Jesus is the “only begotten” from humanity by God “himself” directly. 

    God the Father himself impregnated a human women, with the DNA OF KING DAVID.  THAT makes JESUS  the “only” “begotten” “human”, son of God “FROM” humanity, which God himself caused to be Born through, a flesh birth process’ . It also fulfills all the other things Jesus said about himself.  He is without a doubt a SON OF MAN, and also A SON OF GOD, who Fathered him,  with the DNA OR SEED that came from the roots of Jesse, and thus was a offspring of David,  just as Jesus said he was.

    Adam scripture tells was also a Son of God by way of “creation” and so was Eve,  but the first “begotten” from them was Cain, he was the first begotten from humanity, by humans , Jesus was the first and only  begotten from humanity by God himself through a sexual encounter with a women.

    Lu….Jesus never persisted before his birth on this earth ,  except in the plan and will of God, who caused him to come into existence exactly as we are through a human birth process. There is not a single scripture that shows any activity of him until after his birth on this earth.

    peace and love to you and yours…………gene

     

     

    March 16, 2021 at 7:19 am#869755
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @genebalthrop

    There is not a single scripture that shows any activity of him until after his birth on this earth.

    Gene, you are wrong.
    John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
    Before Abraham was (past tense), Jesus is (present tense). Jesus was claiming pre-existence.
    Notice Jesus didn’t say, “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born, I was in the plan of God.”

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