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[Lightenup]

@Keith

You are bringing up John 1:1 and 2 Corinthians 4:4, but those points don’t answer the specific question I asked you. That’s a discussion for another time.

Let’s stay with the passage I quoted, because it is the Father speaking, and the wording is identical to Psalm 102.

Hebrews 1:8 says clearly: “But about the Son He says…”

Then the Father continues speaking in vv. 10–12 and quotes Psalm 102:25–27 word for word.

Psalm 102 is addressed to Jehovah.

So my question remains:

1. In Hebrews 1:10, when the Father says to the Son, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth…”, who is the “You”?

2. In Psalm 102:25, “Of old You laid the foundation of the earth…”, who is the “You”?

These are the same words. The speaker is the Father. The recipient in Hebrews is the Son. The recipient in Psalm 102 is Jehovah.

I’m not asking about John 1:1 right now. I’m asking you to answer these two very simple questions from Hebrews 1 and Psalm 102 according to the NASB1995 translation.

[Lightenup]

@Keith

How do you define “Christians?”

Jehovah the Father—the One speaking to David’s Lord in Psalm 110:1—identifies His Son in Hebrews 1 with the Jehovah described in Psalm 102.

Psalm 110:1 shows Jehovah (the Father) speaking to someone distinct: “my Lord.”

Psalm 102 describes Jehovah as the eternal, unchanging Creator of heaven and earth.

Hebrews 1 quotes Psalm 102 and applies it directly to the Son—while the speaker is still the Father.

So my question:

Why does the Father identify His Son with the very Jehovah who created the heavens and the earth?

[Lightenup]

@Keith

One of my sons lives in NY also. I’m in TN, in the Bible Belt of America. 🙂

So you have been a JW basically all your life. Do JW’s say that they are Christians? Do you know where in the Bible it is written where God the Father identifies Jesus as Jehovah?

[Lightenup]

@Keith
Hi Keith, thanks for joining me over here. Could you tell me a little about yourself like when you became a JW and anything you would like me to know about you? Do you live in the States?

[Lightenup]

@Keith

Amen, Jesus is the Messiah! I set up a one-on-one discussion with you to discuss and share our beliefs. I’m not a JW but always like to discuss the distinctions. If interested, go to the discussion here: https://heavennet.net/forums/topic/lightenup-keith-discussion/#post-948050

Hope to see you there,

Lightenup (LU)

[Lightenup]

@Keith

Hoping to discuss your JW beliefs here.

[Lightenup]

For anyone following this exchange, I want to offer a brief summary so the main point doesn’t get lost in the back‑and‑forth.

The Tanakh presents a consistent pattern for God’s chosen figures: suffering or rejection first, followed by vindication and restoration. This pattern appears in Joseph, Moses, David, the Servant in Isaiah, and the pierced one in Zechariah. It is not a Christian invention — it is the rhythm of the Hebrew Scriptures themselves.

When the Messianic prophecies are placed side‑by‑side, they naturally divide into two categories:

1. Prophecies that must occur before the destruction of the Second Temple (Dan 9:26).
2. Prophecies that belong to the final age of restoration (Isa 11; Mic 4; Isa 66).

Jesus is the only figure in history who fulfills the first category and is positioned to fulfill the second. That is why I believe He is the Messiah — not because of tradition, but because of the Tanakh’s own structure, timeline, and pattern.

I’ve presented the texts and the reasoning as clearly as I can. Others are free to weigh the evidence and reach their own conclusions.

[Lightenup]

@DesireTruth

Below is a simple comparison of what the Tanakh says the Messiah must do, and how Jesus either fulfilled it already or is said to fulfill it in the future. This avoids going in circles and keeps everything text‑anchored.

Messianic Expectation (Tanakh) / Jesus in NT / Messianic Age Fulfillment

Born from David (Jer 23:5; 2 Sam 7)
Jesus is legally Davidic through Joseph and biologically Davidic through Mary.

Born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2)
Jesus is born in Bethlehem.

Appears before 70 CE (Dan 9:26)
Jesus appears and is “cut off” before the Temple’s destruction.

Rejected by Israel (Isa 49:7)
Jesus is rejected by the leaders of His generation.

Suffers for others (Isa 53)
Jesus suffers, is silent, dies, is buried with the rich, and is vindicated.

Pierced and later mourned (Zech 12:10)
Jesus is pierced; national mourning is future.

Light to the nations (Isa 49:6)
Billions worship Israel’s God through Him.

Brings the New Covenant (Jer 31:31–34)
Jesus inaugurates it at the Last Supper.

Spirit‑anointed deliverer (Isa 61:1–2)
Jesus reads this and applies it to Himself.

King riding a donkey (Zech 9:9)
Jesus enters Jerusalem on a donkey.

Betrayed by a friend (Ps 41:9)
Jesus is betrayed by Judas.

Hands and feet pierced (Ps 22:16)
Jesus is crucified.

Garments divided by casting lots (Ps 22:18)
Soldiers cast lots for His clothing.

Silent before oppressors (Isa 53:7)
Jesus remains silent before Pilate.

Buried with the rich (Isa 53:9)
Jesus is buried in Joseph of Arimathea’s tomb.

Not left to decay (Ps 16:10)
Jesus is raised.

Exalted to God’s right hand (Dan 7:13–14)
Jesus ascends and receives authority.

Regathers Israel (Isa 11)
Fulfilled at His return.

Brings worldwide peace (Micah 4)
Fulfilled in the Messianic age.

All nations worship God (Isa 66:23)
Fulfilled in the new creation.

This is why the Tanakh’s pattern is always the same: suffering first, restoration later. Some prophecies must happen before 70 CE, some during His suffering, and some at the end of the age. Jesus is the only figure who fits the entire pattern.

At this point, I’ve laid out the Tanakh’s expectations and how Jesus fulfills the entire pattern — suffering first, restoration later. You’re free to disagree, but I’m not going to continue repeating the same points in circles.

I’ve presented the texts, the timeline, and the pattern. You’ve presented your interpretation. Readers can decide for themselves which view aligns more closely with the Tanakh.

With that, I’m stepping out of this exchange for now.

[Lightenup]

@DesireTruth

You’ve made it very clear who you believe the Messiah is *not*.
So let me ask the obvious question you’ve avoided:

Who do you believe the Messiah is?

Not “what the Messiah will do.”
Not “why Jesus isn’t the Messiah.”
Not “what Christianity gets wrong.”
I’m asking for a name.

According to your own reading of the Tanakh:

• Who is the Messiah?
• Has he already come, or is he still future?
• If he is future, what is his identity?
• If he is past, who was he?
• And if you say “we don’t know,” then how can you be certain Jesus isn’t him?

You’ve rejected every candidate, every interpretation, and every Messianic text offered.
So it’s time to hear your positive claim, not just your objections.

Who is the Messiah — according to you?

[Lightenup]

@DesireTruth

1. ISAIAH 53
If the servant is Israel, then explain why the servant is righteous (53:11) when Israel is repeatedly called sinful (Isa 1:4; 48:8). Explain why the servant suffers for the sins of others (53:5–6) when Israel suffers for its own sins (Isa 40:2). Explain why the servant dies (53:8–9) when Israel never dies. Explain why the nations speak in past tense about a single figure. You can’t. Your “Israel = servant” claim collapses under the text.

2. DANIEL 9:26
The text says the Messiah is “cut off” BEFORE the Temple is destroyed. That alone means Messiah appears before 70 CE. Your claim that the 70th week ended at the destruction contradicts the Hebrew and the sequence given by the angel.

3. ZECHARIAH 12:10
The Hebrew says: “They will look to ME whom THEY pierced.” God is speaking. The mourning is for a single figure, compared to Josiah. This is not “battle casualties.” Your interpretation ignores the grammar.

4. PSALM 22
David was never pierced, never surrounded by Gentiles, never had his garments gambled over, and never “laid in the dust of death.” The psalm contains details that never happened to David. It is prophetic, not autobiographical.

5. PSALM 69
The psalm describes being hated without cause, zeal for God’s house, insults falling on him, and being given vinegar to drink. David experienced some of this, but the psalm goes far beyond his life. It is prophetic, like many Davidic psalms.

6. “Everyone is responsible for their own sins.”
Correct — and Isaiah 53 agrees. The servant voluntarily suffers as an intercessor, just like Moses (Ex 32:32), the high priest (Lev 16), and the righteous who atone for the land (Prov 16:6). You are rejecting the Tanakh’s own categories.

7. “Jesus didn’t bring salvation.”
Irrelevant. The Tanakh says the servant is rejected first (Isa 49:7), then brings salvation (Isa 49:6), then is exalted (Isa 52:13), then is mourned (Zech 12:10). You are demanding the final stage before acknowledging the first stage.

Your arguments don’t come from the Tanakh.

[Lightenup]

@DesireTruth

Calling Proverbs 8 “just poetry” doesn’t erase what the text actually says. Hebrew poetry uses personification to reveal truth, not to hide it. And the truth in Proverbs 8 is that Wisdom is portrayed as a real, pre‑creation figure distinct from God in role and relationship.

If Wisdom “is God,” then explain why the text says:
– “YHWH acquired me” (8:22)
– “I was brought forth” (8:24–25)
– “I was beside Him” (8:30)
– “I was His craftsman” (8:30)

If Wisdom is simply God, then God acquired Himself, brought Himself forth, stood beside Himself, and acted as a craftsman to Himself. That is not monotheism — that is incoherence.

Personification does not erase meaning. Psalm 98 personifies rivers, but rivers still exist. Proverbs 8 personifies Wisdom, but the attributes described are not imaginary: pre‑existence, being brought forth, being beside God, and participating in creation.

Your “daily wisdom choices” interpretation is not in the text, not in Hebrew grammar, and not in Jewish exegesis. It’s modern self‑help language pasted onto an ancient passage.

So here’s the real question:
If Wisdom “is God,” why does the text repeatedly describe Wisdom as someone God brings forth, stands beside, and works with?

Until you can answer that, you’re not interpreting Proverbs 8 — you’re avoiding it.

[Lightenup]

@DesireTruth

You’re demanding that the Messiah fulfill every *end‑time* prophecy in His first appearance, but the Tanakh never says that. Not once. You invented that rule.

The Tanakh’s actual pattern is always the same:
first suffering/rejection,
then exaltation,
then worldwide restoration.

This is Joseph, Moses, David, the Servant in Isaiah, and the “pierced one” in Zechariah. Your timeline contradicts the Tanakh’s timeline.

Isaiah 11, Ezekiel 37, Micah 4, and Isaiah 66 are all end‑time prophecies. No Jewish commentator — Rashi, Radak, Ibn Ezra — places them in the first century. You’re demanding the final stage before acknowledging the first stage.

Daniel 9:26 literally says the Messiah is “cut off” BEFORE the Temple is destroyed. That alone destroys your argument.

Your objection about “God impregnating a woman” is irrelevant to lineage. The Tanakh already shows God creating life in the womb (Isa 7:14; Ps 139:13; Gen 21:1). And legal kingship in the Davidic line is transmitted by legal fatherhood, not DNA — that’s how every king in Judah inherited the throne.

Your “idolatry” argument collapses too. The Tanakh commands honor toward:
– the Davidic king (Psalm 2),
– the Son of Man who receives worship (Daniel 7),
– the Servant who is exalted and lifted up (Isaiah 52:13),
– the figure called “YHWH our righteousness” (Jeremiah 23:5–6).

If honoring the Messiah is idolatry, then the Tanakh commands idolatry.

So here’s the real issue:
You’re not rejecting Jesus — you’re rejecting the Tanakh’s own sequence:
suffering first, restoration later.

Show me one verse in the Tanakh that says the Messiah must fulfill all end‑time prophecies before suffering or rejection. You

[Lightenup]

@DesireTruth

You asked: “Can you show me anywhere in the Tanakh where the Messiah was going to die for the sins of mankind?”

Yes. The Tanakh teaches this in multiple passages.

1. Isaiah 53
The Servant dies as a substitutionary sacrifice:
• “He was pierced for our transgressions” (53:5)
• “The LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all” (53:6)
• “His soul makes a guilt offering” (53:10)
• “He bore the sin of many” (53:12)
This is atonement language applied to a righteous individual.

2. Daniel 9:26
“Messiah shall be cut off.”
“Cut off” is covenant-death language. Daniel places this before the destruction of the Second Temple.

3. Zechariah 12:10
“They will look on Me whom they pierced.”
This is a pierced, rejected, yet redemptive figure. The Talmud (Sukkah 52a) applies this to a dying Messiah.

4. Psalm 22
A righteous sufferer is pierced, surrounded by enemies, and dies—then is vindicated and brings salvation to “all the ends of the earth.”

5. Psalm 69
“The reproaches of those who reproached You have fallen on me.”
This is substitutionary suffering.

6. Levitical imagery
Isaiah 53 uses sacrificial terms (“guilt offering,” “bearing sin”) and applies them to a person, not an animal.

Conclusion:
The Tanakh teaches a righteous, suffering figure who dies for the sins of others, is vindicated by God, and brings salvation to Israel and the nations. This is exactly what the Messiah was expected to do.

[Lightenup]

@DesireTruth

Regarding point 5:

You said that wisdom in Proverbs 8 is just a characteristic with human-like qualities, and definitely not a reference to Jesus. But the problem is that Proverbs 8 does not describe a characteristic. It describes a pre-existent, active, relational person.

1. Proverbs 8 uses verbs of personal agency:
Wisdom calls, speaks, loves, hates, walks, gives, rejoices, and is “brought forth.” These are not the actions of an abstract trait.

2. Wisdom is pre-existent before creation:
“Before the mountains were settled… I was brought forth” (Prov 8:25).
A characteristic cannot exist before creation.

3. Wisdom is present with God during creation:
“When He established the heavens, I was there” (8:27).
“I was beside Him as a master craftsman” (8:30).
A characteristic cannot be a craftsman or stand beside God.

4. Wisdom is the delight of God:
“I was daily His delight” (8:30).
This is relational language, not metaphorical language about an attribute.

5. Jewish interpretation before Christianity (Sirach 24, Wisdom of Solomon 7–9, Philo, Targum Jonathan) all treat Wisdom as a divine hypostasis—a personal, pre-existent agent involved in creation.

So even if you don’t believe Proverbs 8 refers to Jesus, the text itself does not support the idea that Wisdom is merely a characteristic. The passage describes a personal, pre-existent being who works with God in creation. That is why the New Testament identifies Jesus with this figure.

[Lightenup]

@DesireTruth

Regarding the dynasty concern:

SUMMARY: JESUS AND SOLOMON’S DYNASTY

Jesus did NOT come from Solomon’s dynasty biologically, but He DID come from Solomon’s dynasty legally. This distinction is essential for understanding how the Messiah fulfills both the biological and royal requirements of the Davidic covenant.

1. Biological Descent (Required for Messiahship)
• The Messiah must be a biological descendant of David (2 Sam 7:12; Ps 132:11).
• Jesus fulfills this through Mary’s genealogy (Luke 3), which traces back to David through Nathan—not Solomon.
• Therefore, Jesus is biologically Davidic, but NOT biologically from Solomon’s line.

2. Legal Kingship (Required for the Throne of David)
• Kingship in ancient Israel passed by legal right, not strictly by genetics.
• Joseph is a descendant of Solomon’s royal line (Matthew 1).
• By naming Jesus (Matt 1:25), Joseph legally adopts Him, giving Jesus:
– the legal right to David’s throne
– the legal inheritance of Solomon’s dynasty
– the royal succession required for kingship

3. Why This Matters
• Solomon’s biological dynasty was conditional (1 Chr 28:7) and ultimately failed (Jer 22:30).
• But the legal right to David’s throne still passed through Joseph’s line.
• Jesus avoids the biological curse on Solomon’s line while still inheriting the throne legally.

CONCLUSION:
Jesus is NOT biologically from Solomon’s dynasty, but He IS legally from Solomon’s dynasty through Joseph. Biological descent from David comes through Mary; legal kingship comes through Joseph. The Messiah needs both—and Jesus fulfills both.

[Lightenup]

@DesireTruth
You’re raising translation concerns, so let’s deal with them carefully and textually — not rhetorically.

1. “Battle of translations”? No — the issue is the Hebrew text itself.
Your Jewish translation is translating the same Hebrew verbs:
• קָנָנִי (qanani) — Qal perfect of קָנָה
• חוֹלָלְתִּי (cholalti) — Pual perfect of חוּל
The debate is not “my translation vs yours.” It’s what these Hebrew stems actually mean.

2. קָנָה does not mean “create” in Biblical Hebrew.
קָנָה overwhelmingly means “to acquire, possess, appoint, or establish.”
Examples:
• Gen 14:19 — “Possessor (קֹנֵה) of heaven and earth”
• Ps 139:13 — “You formed/possessed (קָנִיתָ) my inward parts”
• Deut 32:6 — “Is He not your Father who bought/established you?”
None of these mean “create out of nothing.” So translating קָנָנִי as “made me” is interpretive, not lexical.

3. חוּל (Pual) does mean “brought forth,” “generated,” or “caused to come forth.”
The Pual of חוּל never means “create from nothing.”
It means to bring forth from oneself — labor imagery.
Examples:
• Ps 51:5 — “In sin my mother conceived me (תְּחֹולְלֵנִי)”
• Ps 90:2 — “Before the mountains were brought forth (יֻלָּדוּ)”
• Isa 51:2 — “Sarah who bore you (חוֹלֶלְכֶם)”
Your translation’s “formed” is a smoothing choice, not a lexical one.

4. Your argument that “born = created” is not supported by Hebrew usage.
Hebrew distinguishes:
• ברא — create from nothing
• יצר — form/shape
• ילד / חול — bring forth, generate
Proverbs 8 uses חול, not ברא. If the author wanted to say “created,” he had the vocabulary to do so.

5. You keep assuming Proverbs 8 = “wisdom as an abstract concept,” but the text doesn’t say that.
The chapter personifies wisdom as:
• speaking
• calling
• standing at the gates
• having a relationship with God
• being “beside Him” (אֶצְלוֹ)
• being His “delight” (שַׁעֲשֻׁעִים)
• rejoicing before Him
• rejoicing in the sons of men
These are relational verbs, not abstract qualities.

6. You asked: “How can this refer to the Messiah?”
Because the Tanakh already presents a pre‑existent, personified agent of creation:
• Prov 30:4 — “What is His name, and what is His Son’s name?”
• Ps 33:6 — “By the word of the LORD the heavens were made”
• Ps 2 — The Son is installed, kissed, and rules the nations
• Dan 7 — The “Son of Man” comes with the clouds and receives everlasting dominion
None of these are “Greek ideas.” They’re Tanakh.

7. You keep saying “God never says He has a son in the Tanakh.”
The Tanakh literally uses the word “Son” for:
• Israel (Ex 4:22)
• Davidic king (2 Sam 7:14; Ps 2:7)
• The pre‑existent figure of Prov 30:4
The category exists. Your claim that it doesn’t is simply incorrect.

8. As for Messiah’s works — you keep assuming only one set of prophecies.
The Tanakh presents:
• a suffering, rejected figure (Isa 53; Ps 22)
• a pierced one (Zech 12:10)
• a priest‑king (Ps 110)
• a ruler from Bethlehem (Mic 5:2)
• a light to the nations (Isa 49:6)
• one who comes “suddenly to His temple” (Mal 3:1)
• one who is “cut off” before the destruction of the Second Temple (Dan 9:26)
You’re only citing the political restoration texts and ignoring the rest.

So no — nothing “circles back” to a single point. It circles back to the entire Tanakh, not a selective portion of it.

FOLLOW‑UP QUESTION:
Since you insist “born = created,” can you show a single place in the Tanakh where the Pual of חוּל (as in חוֹלָלְתִּי) means “created from nothing” rather than “brought forth / generated”? If not, then your entire argument collapses at the lexical level.

[Lightenup]

@DesireTruth

See Proverbs 8:24-25 and look at the parallel Bibles to see that the word “born” or “brought forth” is in nearly all of the versions. There you will see the evidence.

[Lightenup]

@DesireTruth

ACTIONS OF WISDOM IN PROVERBS 8 — FULL CHAPTER (NASB)

────────────────────────────────────────
PART 1 — PROVERBS 8:1–21
────────────────────────────────────────

1. Calls out publicly (v.1)
2. Takes her stand in prominent places (v.2)
3. Cries aloud at the city gates (v.3)
4. Calls to all humanity (v.4)
5. Commands the simple to gain prudence (v.5)
6. Speaks noble things (v.6)
7. Utters truth (v.7)
8. Speaks righteousness; nothing crooked in her words (vv.8–9)
9. Offers instruction better than silver (vv.10–11)
10. Dwells with prudence (v.12)
11. Finds knowledge and discretion (v.12)
12. Hates evil, pride, arrogance, and perverted speech (v.13)
13. Possesses counsel (v.14)
14. Possesses sound wisdom (v.14)
15. Possesses understanding (v.14)
16. Possesses strength (v.14)
17. Enables kings to reign (v.15)
18. Enables rulers to decree justice (v.15)
19. Enables princes and nobles to rule rightly (v.16)
20. Loves those who love her (v.17)
21. Is found by those who diligently seek her (v.17)
22. Possesses riches and honor (v.18)
23. Produces fruit better than gold (v.19)
24. Walks in righteousness (v.20)
25. Grants inheritance to those who love her (v.21)
26. Fills their treasuries (v.21)

────────────────────────────────────────
PART 2 — PROVERBS 8:22–36
────────────────────────────────────────

1. Was brought forth before creation (vv.22–25)
2. Was present when there were no depths or springs (v.24)
3. Was present before mountains and hills existed (v.25)
4. Was there when the earth’s fields and dust were made (v.26)
5. Was beside God when He established the heavens (v.27)
6. Was present when He inscribed the circle on the deep (v.27)
7. Was present when He made the skies above (v.28)
8. Was present when He set boundaries for the sea (v.29)
9. Was present when He marked out the foundations of the earth (v.29)
10. Was beside Him as a master workman / craftsman (v.30)
11. Was daily His delight (v.30)
12. Rejoiced always before Him (v.30)
13. Rejoiced in the world, His earth (v.31)
14. Found delight in the sons of men (v.31)
15. Calls for her children to listen (v.32)
16. Promises blessing to those who keep her ways (v.32)
17. Instructs to hear and be wise (v.33)
18. Warns not to neglect her (v.33)
19. Declares blessing on those who watch daily at her gates (v.34)
20. Declares blessing on those who wait at her doorposts (v.34)
21. Gives life to those who find her (v.35)
22. Obtains favor from the LORD for those who find her (v.35)
23. Warns that those who sin against her injure themselves (v.36)
24. States that those who hate her love death (v.36)

────────────────────────────────────────
PART 3 — HEBREW GRAMMATICAL GENDER REMINDER
────────────────────────────────────────

In Hebrew, grammatical gender follows the *form of the noun*, not the *nature of the referent*.

• A feminine noun requires feminine verbs, adjectives, and pronouns — even if the speaker is not female.
• A masculine noun requires masculine forms — even if the referent is not male.

Therefore, the feminine forms in Proverbs 8 follow the feminine noun “wisdom” (ḥokhmāh), not the metaphysical identity of the one speaking. Hebrew grammar requires agreement with the noun’s morphology, not with the speaker’s essence.

Can you admit this:

Proverbs 8 is in the Tanakh and it shows that one referred to as “Wisdom” was born of God before creation and was with God. 

Enough for now. I’m not avoiding the rest of your queries, I just want to stay focused. Let’s concentrate on this right now because it is foundational for the rest.

[Lightenup]

@DesireTruth

Proverbs 8:1 begins with the narrator of the chapter who quotes the person referred to as wisdom.

The Son was born/begotten before the creation of the depths and mountains. A birth is not a beginning of existence, a birth requires that which is born to have existed so that he could be born. The Son existed eternally within the Father, then during eternity, before creation, was begotten from the Father. The begetting was the Father’s first work before the work of creation.

Btw, I already answered as to why I began at verse 22. That is the part of the chapter that is specific to creation.

[Lightenup]

@DesireTruth

There is much more than the word “craftsman” that shows wisdom is referring to a person who was with God before creation.
The Tanakh itself uses these words to show that:

• “I was born” — Proverbs 8:24
• “I was born” — Proverbs 8:25
• “From everlasting I was established” — Proverbs 8:23
• “When He established the heavens, I was there” — Proverbs 8:27
• “Then I was beside Him” — Proverbs 8:30
• “I was daily His delight” — Proverbs 8:30
• “Rejoicing always before Him” — Proverbs 8:30
• “Rejoicing in the world, His earth” — Proverbs 8:31
• “He who finds me finds life” — Proverbs 8:35
• “He who sins against me injures himself” — Proverbs 8:36

 

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