@DesireTruth

Regarding point 5:

You said that wisdom in Proverbs 8 is just a characteristic with human-like qualities, and definitely not a reference to Jesus. But the problem is that Proverbs 8 does not describe a characteristic. It describes a pre-existent, active, relational person.

1. Proverbs 8 uses verbs of personal agency:
Wisdom calls,…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

Regarding the dynasty concern:

SUMMARY: JESUS AND SOLOMON’S DYNASTY

Jesus did NOT come from Solomon’s dynasty biologically, but He DID come from Solomon’s dynasty legally. This distinction is essential for understanding how the Messiah fulfills both the biological and royal requirements of the Davidic covenant.

1. Biological Desce…[Read more]

@DesireTruth
You’re raising translation concerns, so let’s deal with them carefully and textually — not rhetorically.

1. “Battle of translations”? No — the issue is the Hebrew text itself.
Your Jewish translation is translating the same Hebrew verbs:
• קָנָנִי (qanani) — Qal perfect of קָנָה
• חוֹלָלְתִּי (cholalti) — Pual perfect of חוּל
The de…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

See Proverbs 8:24-25 and look at the parallel Bibles to see that the word “born” or “brought forth” is in nearly all of the versions. There you will see the evidence.

@DesireTruth

ACTIONS OF WISDOM IN PROVERBS 8 — FULL CHAPTER (NASB)

────────────────────────────────────────
PART 1 — PROVERBS 8:1–21
────────────────────────────────────────

1. Calls out publicly (v.1)
2. Takes her stand in prominent places (v.2)
3. Cries aloud at the city gates (v.3)
4. Calls to all humanity (v.4)
5. Commands the simple to…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

Proverbs 8:1 begins with the narrator of the chapter who quotes the person referred to as wisdom.

The Son was born/begotten before the creation of the depths and mountains. A birth is not a beginning of existence, a birth requires that which is born to have existed so that he could be born. The Son existed eternally within the…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

There is much more than the word “craftsman” that shows wisdom is referring to a person who was with God before creation.
The Tanakh itself uses these words to show that:

• “I was born” — Proverbs 8:24
• “I was born” — Proverbs 8:25
• “From everlasting I was established” — Proverbs 8:23
• “When He established the heavens, I was…[Read more]

You raised several objections, but none of them actually address the point I made, so let me clarify it in the simplest possible terms.

My claim is not that Philo, Sirach, or the Targums are “Scripture.” My claim is that ancient Jews before Christianity interpreted Proverbs 8 as describing a real, personal, pre‑existent figure who comes forth…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

Just to clarify: the idea that Proverbs 8 describes a divine, pre‑existent figure who participates in creation is not a Christian invention. Multiple ancient Jewish sources — long before Christianity — interpreted it that way.

Philo of Alexandria (20 BC–AD 50), a Jewish philosopher, explicitly identified the figure in Proverb…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

I mentioned the part of the chapter that was dealing with the topic of creation because that is what we were discussing.

Also I addressed your point about “wisdom” being feminine to tell you that just because Hebrew words have a gender for their grammatical construction doesn’t really mean anything significant when the noun is inani…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

Let me just start here with my reply. You don’t seem to understand how Hebrew works when using gender specific nouns.

The Hebrew noun for “wisdom” (חָכְמָה) is grammatically feminine, but grammatical gender in Hebrew
belongs to the noun, not to the real identity of the figure being represented.
Hebrew routinely personifies…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

Here is my clear statement about Proverbs 8:

Even if we acknowledge that Proverbs 8 uses poetic personification, the text still describes “wisdom” as something that comes forth from YHWH, exists before creation, is with YHWH before anything is made, stands beside Him, and participates in creation as a craftsman. Those are the act…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

I believe that the “wisdom” in Prov 8:22+ represents the literal only begotten Son of YHVH who YHVH the Father identifies as the YHVH who all things were made through and for. They are united as one Holy Spirit that is sent to dwell in all true believers, bringing the fellowship of both the Father and the Son of God to them.

@DesireTruth

Thanks for asking. Here’s the follow‑up question I’m trying to get to:

If Proverbs 8 describes a being who comes forth from God, is with God before creation, stands beside God, and participates in creation as a craftsman, then how do you interpret that figure within the Tanakh?

In other words: what is this being, according to your…[Read more]

@DesireTruth
I hear what you’re saying, and I’m not trying to analyze you or your journey. I’m only trying to stay focused on this specific textual question to establish a foundation from which to build on.

You said the answer to all three creation questions is “no,” so let me stay with that one point. My goal isn’t to defend church tradition o…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

I want to start by acknowledging something important about your story. You’ve shared that you spent forty years in Christian churches, raising sincere questions about the relationship between the Tanakh and the New Testament — and that your pastor and fellow churchgoers didn’t give you meaningful answers. I can understand how disco…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

You keep asserting that the Messiah must be biologically descended from Solomon, and that God cannot have an only‑begotten Son. But you have not shown where the Tanakh says either of these things.

So let me ask directly:

1. Where does the Tanakh say the Messiah must come from Solomon specifically?
2. Where does the Tanakh say God c…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

You keep asserting that God cannot have an only‑begotten Son, but you have not shown where the Tanakh says this. So let me ask directly:

Where does the Tanakh say that God cannot have a Son?
Where does it say God cannot beget?
Where does it say God cannot send His Son?
Where does it say God cannot reveal Himself through His S…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

Proverbs 30:4 is a riddle about the identity of a divine figure. Agur asks who ascends and descends from heaven, who gathers the wind, who wraps the waters, and who established the earth. These are all divine actions in the Tanakh. Then he asks: “What is His name, and what is His Son’s name?”

The “Son” cannot be Israel or Solomon,…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

When God says He will make Solomon’s dynasty “permanent,” He does not mean an endless biological chain of Solomon’s sons ruling on earth.

The Tanakh itself shows Solomon’s line collapsed: the kingdom split, the monarchy ended, foreign powers deposed kings, Jehoiachin was cursed, and no son of Solomon ruled after the exile. If “perma…[Read more]