Worship God the Father only?

[Lightenup]

Mike,
You confuse civil worship with religious worship, what was done to Jesus was religious worship.

[Lightenup]

Also Mike,
The Bible tells us not to 'bow down' to any graven image or idol or other gods. You say that Jesus is a mighty god and you agree that He was bowed down to after being supernatural yet He did not admonish anyone who did that so for you to say that it is clear that we worship no one but the Father is it not also clear that we are not to bow down in a religious manner yet Jesus received this over and over. Can we give obeisance to an idol but not worship? Do you see how both would be wrong to give Jesus obeisance or bow down to Him if He wasn't considered to be with God and not to be seen as another mighty god, a distinct god of his own kind, a one of a kind god?

[942767]

Hi:

We do have the following scripture:

Quote

Hebrews 1:6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

But also, the word worship is used in the following scripture:

Quote

Revelation 3:7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Kathi

Sorry Pierre,
I forgot about your question but I might point out that while you 'wonder' about my answer, your last post was criticizing that I was wondering about someone else's answer. Isn't that kind hypocritical…just sayin' is all.

You asked what type of image is Christ. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation, the exact representation of the nature of God kinda image.

————–
“For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

an image is wath? you are confusing me;being the image of the living God ,is not being the first born this is unique to Christ so not the image of God,

then you say;the exact representation of the nature of God;;;exact representation of the nature,what is this mean to you ???The term representation carries a range of meanings and interpretations. In literary theory representation is commonly defined in three ways.

To look like or resemble
To stand in for something or someone
To present a second time to re-present[2]

Pierre

[OneDay]

Cain and Abel both worshipped God, but Cain's sacrifice was rejected because he was unrighteous.

Nadab and Abihu offered incense, but God destroyed them: “Then Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it, put incense on it, and offered profane fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them. So fire went out from the LORD and devoured them, and they died before the LORD” (Leviticus 10:1,2).

Satan tried to persuade Christ to bow before him. He did not say: “Don't worship God.” He said: “Worship me.” Jesus replied: “Get behind Me, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve'” (Luke 4:5-8). Satan's trick did not work with Christ as it does with so many.

~JO~

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ Nov. 16 2010,21:09)

Hi: We do have the following scripture: Quote Hebrews 1:6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. But also, the word worship is used in the following scripture: Quote Revelation 3:7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

did you check if the word worship is the true translation or it mean honor;

i checked it in my french translation and it say kneel down.

so it would not be a good representation ,we have to test all things see if it comes from God,

Pierre

[OneDay]

I Forgot to say

Hello

~JO~

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 16 2010,20:56)

Also Mike, The Bible tells us not to 'bow down' to any graven image or idol or other gods.  You say that Jesus is a mighty god and you agree that He was bowed down to after being supernatural yet He did not admonish anyone who did that so for you to say that it is clear that we worship no one but the Father is it not also clear that we are not to bow down in a religious manner yet Jesus received this over and over.  Can we give obeisance to an idol but not worship?  Do you see how both would be wrong to give Jesus obeisance or bow down to Him if He wasn't considered to be with God and not to be seen as another mighty god, a distinct god of his own kind, a one of a kind god?

Kathi

were do you see that the image has to be cut or carved ??

Lev 26:1 “ ‘Do not make idols OR set up an image OR a sacred stone for yourselves, AND do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God.

i am sure we do not have to worship men and i am sure you do not but see what scriptures say;;
1Co 11:7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God

see Kathi men are the image of God ,in your theory then we should worship them as well

WE ONLY WORSHIP GOD OUR MASTER AND CREATOR,
this is also Jesus views.

Pierre

[terraricca]

Quote (OneDay @ Nov. 16 2010,21:35)

I Forgot to say Hello ~JO~

hi JO

hello, and welcome to this site,

Pierre

[Lightenup]

Marty and Pierre,

Good verses Marty! However there are several on here that think that if the word means kneeling down in front of, or bowing dow to, or doing obeisance then that would be ok to do to other gods. No matter how you translate it, when it is an act of religious worship as opposed to civil worship you may not do this to other gods…but this religious honor was done before Jesus many times after He performed a miracle, who is a mighty God and there is acceptance by Jesus and commends their faith. That should tell those here that worry about what word is intended; bow down, kneel before, obeisance, worship, etc. when it is given to THIS mighty God, Jesus, He is not to be included in the 'other gods' intent of the first commandment and must be included in honoring the Lord God part of the commandment. If you don't understand how, then let it be a mystery, or at least keep an open heart about it.

I have shown that all kings on earth will proskuneo the Messiah and all the Gentiles will serve Him. Marty has given very good verses above in his last post.

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 16 2010,14:24)

Quote (942767 @ Nov. 16 2010,21:09) Hi: We do have the following scripture: Quote Hebrews 1:6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. But also, the word worship is used in the following scripture: Quote Revelation 3:7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Love in Christ, Marty Marty did you check if the word worship is the true translation or it mean honor; i checked it in my french translation and it say kneel down. so it would not be a good representation ,we have to test all things see if it comes from God, Pierre

Hi Pierre:

Jesus is our Lord, and He our King, but he is not God and, I cannot worship him as God. We are submitted to God through him.

Quote

5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Phillipians 2:6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 16 2010,21:40)

Marty and Pierre, Good verses Marty!  However there are several on here that think that if the word means kneeling down in front of, or bowing dow to, or doing obeisance then that would be ok to do to other gods.  No matter how you translate it, when it is an act of religious worship as opposed to civil worship you may not do this to other gods…but this religious honor was done before Jesus many times after He performed a miracle, who is a mighty God and there is acceptance by Jesus and commends their faith.  That should tell those here that worry about what word is intended; bow down, kneel before, obeisance, worship, etc. when it is given to THIS mighty God, Jesus, He is not to be included in the 'other gods' intent of the first commandment and must be included in honoring the Lord God part of the commandment.   If you don't understand how, then let it be a mystery, or at least keep an open heart about it. I have shown that all kings on earth will proskuneo the Messiah and all the Gentiles will serve Him.  Marty has given very good verses above in his last post.

Kathi

you did not answer my quotes
and you lean with what your hearth is,

Christ say ;to worship only God, but this is not enough,you like to force worship on someone who told you not to do it,

the scriptures spirit is only one spirit and it is God that we must worship,
first commandment, Jesus repeated to make sure nothing in worship is changed.

but Kathi this is not your concern because you have chosen in you hearth to worship Christ it does not matter what Christ tells you ,so wen you will act on it you will have practice sin.

this sin mean rebellion toward the son of God,

Pierre

[Lightenup]

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 15 2010,22:38)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 16 2010,20:56) Also Mike, The Bible tells us not to 'bow down' to any graven image or idol or other gods.  You say that Jesus is a mighty god and you agree that He was bowed down to after being supernatural yet He did not admonish anyone who did that so for you to say that it is clear that we worship no one but the Father is it not also clear that we are not to bow down in a religious manner yet Jesus received this over and over.  Can we give obeisance to an idol but not worship?  Do you see how both would be wrong to give Jesus obeisance or bow down to Him if He wasn't considered to be with God and not to be seen as another mighty god, a distinct god of his own kind, a one of a kind god? Kathi were do you see that the image has to be cut or carved ?? Lev 26:1 “ ‘Do not make idols   OR   set up an image   OR    a sacred stone for yourselves,   AND   do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it.   I am the LORD your God. i am sure we do not have to worship men and i am sure you do not but see what scriptures say;; 1Co 11:7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God see Kathi men are the image of God ,in your theory then we should worship them as well WE ONLY WORSHIP GOD OUR MASTER AND CREATOR, this is also Jesus views. Pierre

Pierre,

Quote

an image is wath? you are confusing me;being the image of the living God ,is not being the first born this is unique to Christ so not the image of God, then you say;the exact representation of the nature of God;;;exact representation of the nature,what is this mean to you ???The term representation carries a range of meanings and interpretations. In literary theory representation is commonly defined in three ways. To look like or resemble To stand in for something or someone To present a second time to re-present[2]

The firstborn of all creation pertains to the Son of God begotten before the ages and He is also the image of the invisible God all in one. A Son in the image of His Father before the ages. Col 1:15
The Messiah did not create all things in heaven and on earth, it was the Son of God that was intended to become the Messiah who was flesh. The pre-flesh Son of God did the creating of all things in heaven and on earth. The image of the invisible God was the firstborn of all creation. The firstborn from the dead was what the Son of God was when He took on the role as the Messiah with flesh and died and rose. Two different senses of the word firstborn, Pierre.

Now as to your definitions of 'representation'
To look like or resemble
To stand in for something or someone
To present a second time to re-present

I don't think the Bible gives a real clear definition of 'representation.' I think of the first definition because that is what makes the most sense in Heb 1:3. If someone resembles someone exactly you would think of identical twins I suppose. That word 'exact' is important here. There might be found two things that are slightly different if one resembled the other but not different if one exactly resembled the other.

Heb 1:3
3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
NASU

When we look at the mighty God/god that Jesus is, we should be able to know that who He is, would also be who God the Father is in character and nature, and all attributes. We would know that He was not the Father in person, but is what the Father is within His own person, as the Son. Not two Fathers here, but a Father and a Son exactly like His Father in everyway except as being the Son not the Father Himself.

were do you see that the image has to be cut or carved ??

The image does not have to be cut or carved or poured molten. The image can be anything or anyone that takes the place of God in our lives. Jesus never put Himself above the Father or took the place of the Father but kept distinct from His Father, yet they were one in essence, in purpose, in thought, in wisdom, in strength because perfect begat perfect, not less than perfect.

You mentioned that men, in general-not one in particular, are the image and glory of God and that is in the way of having authority over the things of the earth. The Son of God is the image of God and the nature of God, the wisdom of God, the power of God and so the Son of God is much different than the image of God that the general male person is. You do seem to understand that Jesus as the 'man' is not like the general man.

WE ONLY WORSHIP GOD OUR MASTER AND CREATOR,
this is also Jesus views.

Jesus is called God, Jesus is called Master, and Jesus is involved in the act of creation.

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 16 2010,22:16)

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 15 2010,22:38) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 16 2010,20:56) Also Mike, The Bible tells us not to 'bow down' to any graven image or idol or other gods.  You say that Jesus is a mighty god and you agree that He was bowed down to after being supernatural yet He did not admonish anyone who did that so for you to say that it is clear that we worship no one but the Father is it not also clear that we are not to bow down in a religious manner yet Jesus received this over and over.  Can we give obeisance to an idol but not worship?  Do you see how both would be wrong to give Jesus obeisance or bow down to Him if He wasn't considered to be with God and not to be seen as another mighty god, a distinct god of his own kind, a one of a kind god? Kathi were do you see that the image has to be cut or carved ?? Lev 26:1 “ ‘Do not make idols   OR   set up an image   OR    a sacred stone for yourselves,   AND   do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it.   I am the LORD your God. i am sure we do not have to worship men and i am sure you do not but see what scriptures say;; 1Co 11:7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God see Kathi men are the image of God ,in your theory then we should worship them as well WE ONLY WORSHIP GOD OUR MASTER AND CREATOR, this is also Jesus views. Pierre Pierre, Quote an image is wath? you are confusing me;being the image of the living God ,is not being the first born this is unique to Christ so not the image of God, then you say;the exact representation of the nature of God;;;exact representation of the nature,what is this mean to you ???The term representation carries a range of meanings and interpretations. In literary theory representation is commonly defined in three ways. To look like or resemble To stand in for something or someone To present a second time to re-present[2] The firstborn of all creation pertains to the Son of God begotten before the ages and He is also the image of the invisible God all in one.  A Son in the image of His Father before the ages. Col 1:15 The Messiah did not create all things in heaven and on earth, it was the Son of God that was intended to become the Messiah who was flesh.  The pre-flesh Son of God did the creating of all things in heaven and on earth.  The image of the invisible God was the firstborn of all creation.  The firstborn from the dead was what the Son of God was when He took on the role as the Messiah with flesh and died and rose.  Two different senses of the word firstborn, Pierre. Now as to your definitions of 'representation' To look like or resemble To stand in for something or someone To present a second time to re-present I don't think the Bible gives a real clear definition of 'representation.'  I think of the first definition because that is what makes the most sense in Heb 1:3.  If someone resembles someone exactly you would think of identical twins I suppose.  That word 'exact' is important here.  There might be found two things that are slightly different if one resembled the other but not different if one exactly resembled the other. Heb 1:3 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, NASU When we look at the mighty God/god that Jesus is, we should be able to know that who He is, would also be who God the Father is in character and nature, and all attributes.  We would know that He was not the Father in person, but is what the Father is within His own person, as the Son.  Not two Fathers here, but a Father and a Son exactly like His Father in everyway except as being the Son not the Father Himself. were do you see that the image has to be cut or carved ?? The image does not have to be cut or carved or poured molten.  The image can be anything or anyone that takes the place of God in our lives.  Jesus never put Himself above the Father or took the place of the Father but kept distinct from His Father, yet they were one in essence, in purpose, in thought, in wisdom, in strength because perfect begat perfect, not less than perfect. You mentioned that men, in general-not one in particular, are the image and glory of God and that is in the way of having authority over the things of the earth.  The Son of God is the image of God and the nature of God, the wisdom of God, the power of God and so the Son of God is much different than the image of God that the general male person is.  You do seem to understand that Jesus as the 'man' is not like the general man. WE ONLY WORSHIP GOD OUR MASTER AND CREATOR, this is also Jesus views. Jesus is called God, Jesus is called Master, and Jesus is involved in the act of creation.

Kathi

thank you for the answers,

but you do not mention nothing about the first commandment “to only worship God”

Pierre

[Lightenup]

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 15 2010,22:49)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 16 2010,21:40) Marty and Pierre, Good verses Marty!  However there are several on here that think that if the word means kneeling down in front of, or bowing dow to, or doing obeisance then that would be ok to do to other gods.  No matter how you translate it, when it is an act of religious worship as opposed to civil worship you may not do this to other gods…but this religious honor was done before Jesus many times after He performed a miracle, who is a mighty God and there is acceptance by Jesus and commends their faith.  That should tell those here that worry about what word is intended; bow down, kneel before, obeisance, worship, etc. when it is given to THIS mighty God, Jesus, He is not to be included in the 'other gods' intent of the first commandment and must be included in honoring the Lord God part of the commandment.   If you don't understand how, then let it be a mystery, or at least keep an open heart about it. I have shown that all kings on earth will proskuneo the Messiah and all the Gentiles will serve Him.  Marty has given very good verses above in his last post. Kathi you did not answer my quotes and you lean with what your hearth is, Christ say ;to worship only God, but this is not enough,you like to force worship on someone who told you not to do it, the scriptures spirit is only one spirit and it is God that we must worship, first commandment, Jesus repeated to make sure nothing in worship is changed. but Kathi this is not your concern because you have chosen in you hearth to worship Christ it does not matter what Christ tells you ,so wen you will act on it you will have practice sin. this sin mean rebellion toward the son of God, Pierre

Pierre,
I really am not surprised that Jesus didn't command that people worship Him. That was not what He came to do, He came to serve, not to be served. It is a response of the Spirit within us that leads us to worshipping Jesus as the Son, not as the Father, but as the Son because He is worthy. I believe that the worship of the Son…AS the SON (not the Father) is the biggest compliment to the Father. You don't seem to see that the Father would like that but I think that He loves it when we recognize His glorious Son in that way. The Father knows that If we worship someone exactly like His nature, we would worship Him also. It is the nature of God that makes one a true God if it is their 'original' nature. There is only one God nature, not two or three or four. The one God nature makes up the Father AND the Son. Who else can you think of that has a divine nature as their original nature?

Angels do not have an original divine nature.
Men do not have an original divine nature.
Animals do not have an original divine nature. (my dog is close though…smile)

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 16 2010,22:30)

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 15 2010,22:49) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 16 2010,21:40) Marty and Pierre, Good verses Marty!  However there are several on here that think that if the word means kneeling down in front of, or bowing dow to, or doing obeisance then that would be ok to do to other gods.  No matter how you translate it, when it is an act of religious worship as opposed to civil worship you may not do this to other gods…but this religious honor was done before Jesus many times after He performed a miracle, who is a mighty God and there is acceptance by Jesus and commends their faith.  That should tell those here that worry about what word is intended; bow down, kneel before, obeisance, worship, etc. when it is given to THIS mighty God, Jesus, He is not to be included in the 'other gods' intent of the first commandment and must be included in honoring the Lord God part of the commandment.   If you don't understand how, then let it be a mystery, or at least keep an open heart about it. I have shown that all kings on earth will proskuneo the Messiah and all the Gentiles will serve Him.  Marty has given very good verses above in his last post. Kathi you did not answer my quotes and you lean with what your hearth is, Christ say ;to worship only God, but this is not enough,you like to force worship on someone who told you not to do it, the scriptures spirit is only one spirit and it is God that we must worship, first commandment, Jesus repeated to make sure nothing in worship is changed. but Kathi this is not your concern because you have chosen in you hearth to worship Christ it does not matter what Christ tells you ,so wen you will act on it you will have practice sin. this sin mean rebellion toward the son of God, Pierre Pierre, I really am not surprised that Jesus didn't command that people worship Him.  That was not what He came to do, He came to serve, not to be served.  It is a response of the Spirit within us that leads us to worshipping Jesus as the Son, not as the Father, but as the Son because He is worthy.  I believe that the worship of the Son…AS the SON (not the Father) is the biggest compliment to the Father.  You don't seem to see that the Father would like that but I think that He loves it when we recognize His glorious Son in that way.  The Father knows that If we worship someone exactly like His nature, we would worship Him also.  It is the nature of God that makes one a true God if it is their 'original' nature.  There is only one God nature, not two or three or four.  The one God nature makes up the Father AND the Son.  Who else can you think of that has a divine nature as their original nature? Angels do not have an original divine nature. Men do not have an original divine nature. Animals do not have an original divine nature.  (my dog is close though…smile)

Kathi

sorry but i can not see how you can make a separation in not worship Christ and so worship God, or the other way around,

but i do honor Christ in all things i do,and i know in my hearth what he as done for me ,and thank him for it in believing in all he said,but i will only worship his father and his God,because that is what he as showed me and said.

Pierre

[OneDay]

Hello !

 GOD THE FATHER
       l           l
       l           l
JESUS THE MESSIAH
       l           l
       l           l
 TRUE BELIEVERS

All are “One” – However
Believers are not – God the Father,
Jesus the Messiah is not –  God the Father
Worship and serve – God the Father – Is what Jesus the Messiah has said.
Is the way I see it.
Is that right ?

~JOANNA~  

[Ed J]

Quote (OneDay @ Nov. 16 2010,16:18)

Hello !  GOD THE FATHER        l           l        l           l JESUS THE MESSIAH        l           l        l           l  TRUE BELIEVERS All are “One” – However Believers are not – God the Father, Jesus the Messiah is not –  God the Father Worship and serve – God the Father – Is what Jesus the Messiah has said. Is the way I see it. Is that right ? ~JOANNA~

Hi JOANNA,

Welcome to h-net!
I like your chart!

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Lightenup]

Pierre,
I see how both are involved in creation. You said that you can see Jesus as your Lord, is that in a religious sense or civil sense?
Do you believe in Jesus as your Lord?
Was He involved in creating the world?
Is Jesus your Master?
Have you seen the list of occurrences where Jesus receives worship/bowing down that I collected a while back, all with a supernatural act within the context?
Have you seen Jesus rebuke any that did that to Him?

I think that you can see evidence that Jesus is encouraging the religious devotion given to Him when He commends the same people for their faith right after they bow down to Him, and that it does not violate the first commandment.

There are plenty of verses to confirm that Jesus approved of people believing in Him and expressing religious worship towards Him as one sent from God. He credits it to them as 'faith.'

See, it was 'faith' that prompted their proskuneo-ing not command, or religious duty. Worshiping the Father and Son by faith is a true worship as opposed to worship in response to command and duty. Worship without faith-would that be true worship? So, worshipping Jesus is a result of my faith in Him, not because I had to be told, it is not an act of obediance-it is greater. See the difference?

If I told my daughter to go kiss her grandmother and she did it that would be nice but if she did it without anyone telling her to do so, that is far greater. Do you see this?

Anyway, God knows our heart and that we are just clay. He will lovingly correct us at some time.

[Lightenup]

Welcome Joanna.

Jesus told us to worship the Father. It is who we have religious faith in as our Lord that should get our worship. The Father is Lord, Jesus is Lord, not two from different essences but the same essence. Let your faith lead you in how you respond and understand the idea of worship.

No one has to tell people to worship money…it is something within us that leads us towards who we are religiously devoted to, some are motivated by spiritual faith, some are motivated by flesh.

There are vast examples of the Messiah receiving worship and commending those followers for their 'faith in the NT,' the emphasis is not on commending those for their obedience when they bowed down to Him, it was for their faith.

There are also passages in the OT that illustrates worship or religious bowing down to the Messiah. The Father and the Son are both of one and the same essence. Jesus said that if you believe in the Father, believe also in Him.

I hope you enjoy it here. Tell us about how you found Heaven Net.
Blessings to you,
Kathi/Lightenup/LU

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