Worship God the Father only?

[david]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2010,02:31)

Quote (david @ Nov. 04 2010,01:24) In the NT, proskyneo DOES NOT always mean “worship.” Here is one example where it can't possibly mean “worship.” Proof:  Mark 15:19 “Also, they would hit him on the head with a reed and spit upon him and, bending their knees, they would do obeisance to him.” (NWT) “They kept beating His head with a [a]reed, and spitting on Him, and kneeling and bowing before Him.”(New American Standard) “Again and again they struck him on the head with a staff and spit on him. Falling on their knees, they paid homage to him.” (New International Version) etc. Almost all Bible's don't translate this as “worship.”  The only reason we can't fault the KJ, is because if you look at what “worship” actually meant when the KJ was produced, it didn't mean what it meant today. WERE THEY WORSHIPING HIM? NO. And the few modern bible's that do have the word “worship”, they also insert words like “pretending” in front of that word, but no such word exists in the originals. David, They were mocking the worship of Him.

Yet, it doesn't say that, does it?

It says they worshiped him,

or

It says they did him obeisance,

or

It says they bowed down

So, did they worship him, or did they bow down before him?

I didn't notice the word “mockingly” or “pretending” or anything like that in front of proskyneo.

[david]

Quote

To all Another point is that worship is not simply a bowing down in respect of another but is also a form of “COMPLETE DEVOTION” to another. It is a condition of the heart.

Exactly.
worship is more than bowing down.

But proskyneo can mean “bowing down” “doing obeisance” or “worshipping”

Looking at your idea of “worship,” how should Mark be translated?

WJ, you repeatedly asked for a scripture, specifying the NT where “prosykneo” didn't mean “worship.”

Well, here you have one. Now, we are ignoring this.

[david]

Quote

MARK 15:19 (New King James Version) “Then they struck Him on the head with a reed and spat on Him; and bowing the knee, they WORSHIPED Him.”

You can say that the word “mock” or “mocking” or “pretended” should be inserted into Mark 15:19, but for some reason, it is not found in the original. All that is found, is that it says they struck him and spat on him and “they “proskyneo” him.”

That is what it says.
If you want a definition of worship, I've given one. WJ also states what “worship” involves and it doesn't fit at all with what they did. Without inserting extra words or thoughts, all we can conclude is that in this instance, the word “proskyneo” means “to bow down” as it sometimes does.

And if you say: Well, they were bowing down in a mocking way, then fine, yes, that's what they were doing, and it's completely possible for someone to do that.
But how is it possible to “worship” in a mocking way. You can bow down to someone in a mocking way. But can you worship someone in a mocking way?

Here's the difference.
You can't really “love” someone in a mocking way, but you can “smile” or “blow them a kiss” in a mocking way.

The latter involves an action, as does bowing, but the former involves how the person actually truly feels, as does “worship.”

Even if you look up the few people who support the idea that they were doing “mocking worship” (despite that word not being in there) then what those who support this idea say is that they “were making a show of reverence while holding the object of worship in contempt.”
Well, what does making a show mean? As regards worship, it means “bowing down.” They were not “worshiping” him. You can say they were making a show of doing this, but what you are saying is, that they were doing some physical action (bowing down) as a show.

Of course, the bible doesn't say they were making a show of reverence, but it says “proskyneo” (either “worship” or “bowing down” basically)

Clearly, they were BOWING DOWN and NOT….. worshipping Jesus.

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2010,23:46)

Pierre, Have you considered that you carry the spirit of intimidation which I refuse to receive, in the name of Jesus! You just go around with your huff and puff but not discussing, just huff and puff.

kathi

you do not listen to Jesus ,and the words he spook ,not even Gods words .

and you say puff puff,to me

as far that i can see you would say the same thing to Christ if he would be in person in front of you,
you say; in the name of Jesus
if you do not believe his words why would believe him if you see him??

you will find a way not to listen.

Pierre

[david]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 05 2010,02:51)

Quote (david @ Nov. 03 2010,02:50) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 03 2010,04:35) Quote (david @ Nov. 02 2010,02:05) Quote AND IN THE MIDDLE OF ALL OF THIS HE SAYS “I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE”. If another person who knows better, misapplies this scripture again, my head is going to explode. David You mean like the Jews who wanted to stone him for saying it? WJ No, WJ, I mean like you.  I mean exactly and precisely like you. You cannot isolate one scripture from another scripture that actually explains the first. Yes David And I mean exactly and precisely like you. For you are siding with the Jews who do not believe Jesus words and the commentary of John that he is claiming equality with the Father. WJ

WJ

Then, by your exact logic, Jesus is also claiming equality with his disciples.

(As for the commentary of John, read a little further. Read all of John. Compare scriptures that are almost exactly the same, but explain more. Or, continue as you have been doing and ignore anything that doesn't support your bias.)

Your exact logic means that Jesus is equal with his disciples.

[shimmer]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2010,15:47)

That will be interesting to hear what you find out about mother Teresa.  I would really like to know if it is true that she didn't really lead people to turn away from other ways to God to follow Christ only.  It seems without that message given, her works only led to earthly comfort of those she 'ministered' to and not to their eternal salvation.  I wonder why she didn't see the importance of that.

Kathi,

http://www.ewtn.com/motherteresa/words.htm

She says..

“There are so many religions and each one has its different ways of following God. I follow Christ:
Jesus is my God,
Jesus is my Spouse,
Jesus is my Life,
Jesus is my only Love,
Jesus is my All in All;
Jesus is my Everything.”

[Baker]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2010,15:56)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 04 2010,22:55) Quote (Baker @ Nov. 05 2010,14:12) The reason why i go through Jesus Christ to worship God is because I know that He is our Mediator, and He is without Sin, while I am not…..I also would not worship Jesus.  I already said why…..Peace Irene Hi Irene, Kathi apparently ignores the fact that a mediator BETWEEN God and mankind cannot be God.  Nor can a priest of God be God Himself. Jesus is both of these things, so how can he actually BE God?   peace and love mike Mike, You seem to ignore the fact that Jesus is not only the High Priest, and the Mediator but is the God with God from John 1:1, in fact you ignore it, Irene ignores it, and Marty ignores it. Of course God as the Son is not a mediator to Himself but to God as the Father.  These two are from one nature, not different natures thus making a God from one nature and another God from a different nature.

kathi! You are misquoting me, in the previous post, did I not say that Jehovah God is Almighty God, while Jesus is Mighty God? Yes, I did………In Ancient times many were called Gods……

Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hbr 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

But I also believe that Jehovah God is to be the only true God that we should only worship. We honor Jesus as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Jehovah is LORD Almighty…..Not Lord Jesus…..That you do not acknowledge, and I hope you would….You seem to be confused what that means…..Jesus is not like His Father, we are the Sons or Daughters of our Fathers, that does not make us our Fathers…..Today respect for Parents have gone out of the window……And you show it. By saying that Jesus is equal??? Also Jesus is not the Mediator to His Father. He is our Mediator to go to the Father. And just because Jesus came forth from Jehovah God does not make Him Jehovah God……
Peace Irene

[Baker]

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 05 2010,19:35)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2010,15:47) That will be interesting to hear what you find out about mother Teresa.  I would really like to know if it is true that she didn't really lead people to turn away from other ways to God to follow Christ only.  It seems without that message given, her works only led to earthly comfort of those she 'ministered' to and not to their eternal salvation.  I wonder why she didn't see the importance of that. Kathi, http://www.ewtn.com/motherteresa/words.htm She says.. “There are so many religions and each one has its different ways of following God. I follow Christ: Jesus is my God, Jesus is my Spouse, Jesus is my Life, Jesus is my only Love, Jesus is my All in All; Jesus is my Everything.”

shimmer! Please remember that Sister is a Catholic, and they put Maria on the same level then Christ….And Christ on the same level then Jehovah God….And they believe that Maria stayed a Virgin…..All of that goes against the first great commandment.
Yes, She was a good person, but what does Scripture tell us, none is good, but God Himself……I have always admired Sister Teresa…..And by saying what I did, takes nothing away from Her…..I hate to burst your bubbles, but since they all believe in the trinity what does Scripture say? You know that the tinity is a man made doctrine and not of God. Whoever believes in that is
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

Peace Irene

[Lightenup]

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 05 2010,03:35)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2010,15:47) That will be interesting to hear what you find out about mother Teresa.  I would really like to know if it is true that she didn't really lead people to turn away from other ways to God to follow Christ only.  It seems without that message given, her works only led to earthly comfort of those she 'ministered' to and not to their eternal salvation.  I wonder why she didn't see the importance of that. Kathi, http://www.ewtn.com/motherteresa/words.htm She says.. “There are so many religions and each one has its different ways of following God. I follow Christ: Jesus is my God, Jesus is my Spouse, Jesus is my Life, Jesus is my only Love, Jesus is my All in All; Jesus is my Everything.”

Shimmer,
Do you agree with this quote of Teresa's:

“There is only one God and He is God to all; therefore it is important that everyone is seen as equal before God. I’ve always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic. We believe our work should be our example to people. We have among us 475 souls – 30 families are Catholics and the rest are all Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs—all different religions. But they all come to our prayers.”

We should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim? Really?? Should we help an idol worshiper become a better idol worshiper too? Does that even make sense to you in light of the gospel?

Does everyone come to the Father whether by Christ or whomever they fancy? That is not scriptural! Teresa doesn't get my vote for the example of true religion.

[Lightenup]

Quote (david @ Nov. 05 2010,02:15)

Quote MARK 15:19 (New King James Version) “Then they struck Him on the head with a reed and spat on Him; and bowing the knee, they WORSHIPED Him.” You can say that the word “mock” or “mocking” or “pretended” should be inserted into Mark 15:19, but for some reason, it is not found in the original.  All that is found, is that it says they struck him and spat on him and “they “proskyneo” him.” That is what it says. If you want a definition of worship, I've given one.  WJ also states what “worship” involves and it doesn't fit at all with what they did.  Without inserting extra words or thoughts, all we can conclude is that in this instance, the word “proskyneo” means “to bow down” as it sometimes does. And if you say: Well, they were bowing down in a mocking way, then fine, yes, that's what they were doing, and it's completely possible for someone to do that. But how is it possible to “worship” in a mocking way.  You can bow down to someone in a mocking way.  But can you worship someone in a mocking way? Here's the difference. You can't really “love” someone in a mocking way, but you can “smile” or “blow them a kiss” in a mocking way.   The latter involves an action, as does bowing, but the former involves how the person actually truly feels, as does “worship.” Even if you look up the few people who support the idea that they were doing “mocking worship” (despite that word not being in there) then what those who support this idea say is that they “were making a show of reverence while holding the object of worship in contempt.” Well, what does making a show mean?  As regards worship, it means “bowing down.”  They were not “worshiping” him.  You can say they were making a show of doing this, but what you are saying is, that they were doing some physical action (bowing down) as a show.   Of course, the bible doesn't say they were making a show of reverence, but it says “proskyneo” (either “worship” or “bowing down” basically) Clearly, they were BOWING DOWN and NOT….. worshipping Jesus.

David,

3:18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue but in deed and truth.

Why bother telling us to not love with word or with tongue if love was always true love?

[Lightenup]

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 05 2010,06:30)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2010,15:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 04 2010,22:55) Quote (Baker @ Nov. 05 2010,14:12) The reason why i go through Jesus Christ to worship God is because I know that He is our Mediator, and He is without Sin, while I am not…..I also would not worship Jesus.  I already said why…..Peace Irene Hi Irene, Kathi apparently ignores the fact that a mediator BETWEEN God and mankind cannot be God.  Nor can a priest of God be God Himself. Jesus is both of these things, so how can he actually BE God?   peace and love mike Mike, You seem to ignore the fact that Jesus is not only the High Priest, and the Mediator but is the God with God from John 1:1, in fact you ignore it, Irene ignores it, and Marty ignores it. Of course God as the Son is not a mediator to Himself but to God as the Father.  These two are from one nature, not different natures thus making a God from one nature and another God from a different nature. kathi!  You are misquoting me, in the previous post, did I not say that Jehovah God is Almighty God, while Jesus is Mighty God?  Yes, I did………In Ancient times many were called Gods…… Hbr 1:8   But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.   Hbr 1:9   Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.   ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.   But I also believe that Jehovah God is to be the only true God that we should only worship.  We honor Jesus as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.   Jehovah is LORD Almighty…..Not Lord Jesus…..That you do not acknowledge, and I hope you would….You seem to be confused what that means…..Jesus is not like His Father, we are the Sons or Daughters of our Fathers, that does not make us our Fathers…..Today respect for Parents have gone out of the window……And you show it.  By saying that Jesus is equal??? Also Jesus is not the Mediator to His Father.  He is our Mediator to go to the Father. And just because Jesus came forth from Jehovah God does not make Him Jehovah God…… Peace Irene

So Irene,
Is it ok to bow down to honor a mighty God that is not the Father?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 04 2010,21:32)

Hi All, I can't believe this.  Kathi and Keith are still arguing that the soldiers were “mock worshipping” Jesus. Matthew 27:27-29 NIV 27 Then the governor’s soldiers took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole company of soldiers around him. 28 They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him, 29 and then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on his head. They put a staff in his right hand. Then they knelt in front of him and mocked him. “Hail, king of the Jews!” they said. So, were they mocking the obeisance done to a king, as the scripture CLEARLY implies, or were they mocking the worship done to God?

Thats interesting Mike since the word “proskyneō” is not in that passage is it?

OK Mike

Since you and David insist that the word “proskyneō” does not mean “worship” but simply a “bowing down” out of respect for a king, and that here they are simply mocking the “bowing down” (“proskyneō”) of a king, then you should be able to give me one example of what they are mocking in the NT examples with the use of the word “proskyneō”.

Where is the example of this word in the NT of a bowing down out of respect by any Apostle or Believer to any other than the Father and Jesus where it was not forbidden by the recipient?

Why is it that we only find the “bowing down in reverence, “proskyneō” to the Father and Jesus and where it is not once forbidden by Jesus when he was being “proskyneōd” like it was by Peter in Acts 10:25, 26 and also Rev 19:10, and Rev 22:8, 9?

One last thing…

Can you tell me what the definition of the word “proskyneō” is to you when you worship “proskyneō” the Father?

How do you worship the Father?

Surely you can answer these small points without whinning about taking one point at a time can't you?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (942767 @ Nov. 04 2010,21:22)

WJ: He said: for my sake and the sake of the gospel.  We are submitted to God through him.  When we obey him we are obeying God in that he is doing the will of God.

Marty

What does this mean Marty? Are you saying you are not submitted to Jesus, but only God through him? Are you saying that you are not obeying Jesus but only God?

Jesus didn't say that Paul would suffer for the Fathers sake did he? He didn't say that they were to lose their lives for the Fathers sake did he? He didn't say for “their” sake did he?

Why do you anti-trinitarians seek to diminish honor and credit to Jesus? Basically you explain his authority and power out of existence like he is a “puppet on a string” or something like a “funnel”.

This is clear and simple. The Mosaic law forbids such devotion to a man or a creature other than God.

God has not changed his mind has he?

Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: (and yet we look to Jesus by whom we are changing into Jesus image) “THOU SHALT NOT BOW DOWN THYSELF TO THEM, NOR SERVE THEM: FOR I THE LORD THY GOD AM A JEALOUS GOD“, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; Gen 20:3-5

Jesus is a religious figure and requires that we follow him even to death or as a Martyr to him if he so requires like he did of the Apostles save one, John..

Do you see that is a violation of the Mosaic law for anyone to place such demands on them. Can you see that the devotion to Jesus when they bowed down to Jesus and worshipped him would be crossing the line. If not then that must mean that you put limits on your devotion to him. Do you?

If you do not put any limits on your devotion to him then tell me how that would not be breaking the commandment if Jesus is not God?

Their giving all and following Jesus even to a Martyrs death is a “complete abandonment of self” which is a good definition for “WORSHIP” pure and simple.

Jesus is either an “Idol” or he is God. Which one is he to you?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi All

David and Mike claim they have answered my points, but I am going to bring them up again so everyone can see that they have not. Also I have bolded the points in the end so that they have another chance at proving me wrong.

In John 4:20-24 the word “proskyneō” is used 9 times in Jesus discussion with the Samaritan woman about the “True Worship”.

Why did John and Jesus choose the word if he wanted to portray the “True worship” to the Father could mean anything less?

Now here is a tidbit for those who have ears to hear…

Jesus said…

But the hour cometh, and now is, when THE TRUE WORSHIPPERS [GR PROSKYNĒTĒS] SHALL WORSHIP the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23

Notice Strong's G4353 –  “proskynētēs”, it is a masculine noun which means “worshippers” and is only found ONCE in the NT. It is the root word for the verb “proskyneō”.

So that means that every time you see the verb “proskyneō” it is being performed by someone who is a “worshipper” “proskynētēs”!  

In all the scriptures that speak of Jesus being worshipped (proskyneō) why didn’t Jesus once say do not worship me?

To say that it is because Jesus wasn’t being worshipped but just being honored lacks evidence because there are no other NT examples of the word proskyneō being used toward any one with honor other than the Father and Jesus. In every case the word is directed to any other it is refused or it is a worshipping falsely.

The burden of proof is on the gainsayers.

The rhetoric about the word proskyneō not meaning “worship” but just bowing down out of respect is not in the NT.

Please can someone give us a NT example of the word being used in honor to any other than the Father and Jesus? Where is the NT example of a bowing down to someone out of great respect?

Why did Jesus use the word in describing “True Worship” (proskyneō) to God and not rebuke those who worshipped (proskyneō) him?

Here are the main points they have not addressed.

[terraricca]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 06 2010,13:23)

Hi All David and Mike claim they have answered my points, but I am going to bring them up again so everyone can see that they have not. Also I have bolded the points in the end so that they have another chance at proving me wrong. In John 4:20-24 the word “proskyneō” is used 9 times in Jesus discussion with the Samaritan woman about the “True Worship”. Why did John and Jesus choose the word if he wanted to portray the “True worship” to the Father could mean anything less? Now here is a tidbit for those who have ears to hear… Jesus said… But the hour cometh, and now is, when THE TRUE WORSHIPPERS [GR PROSKYNĒTĒS] SHALL WORSHIP the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23 Notice Strong's G4353 –  “proskynētēs”, it is a masculine noun which means “worshippers” and is only found ONCE in the NT. It is the root word for the verb “proskyneō”. So that means that every time you see the verb “proskyneō” it is being performed by someone who is a “worshipper” “proskynētēs”!   In all the scriptures that speak of Jesus being worshipped (proskyneō) why didn’t Jesus once say do not worship me? To say that it is because Jesus wasn’t being worshipped but just being honored lacks evidence because there are no other NT examples of the word proskyneō being used toward any one with honor other than the Father and Jesus. In every case the word is directed to any other it is refused or it is a worshipping falsely. The burden of proof is on the gainsayers. The rhetoric about the word proskyneō not meaning “worship” but just bowing down out of respect is not in the NT. Please can someone give us a NT example of the word being used in honor to any other than the Father and Jesus? Where is the NT example of a bowing down to someone out of great respect? Why did Jesus use the word in describing “True Worship” (proskyneō) to God and not rebuke those who worshipped (proskyneō) him? Here are the main points they have not addressed. Why did John and Jesus choose the word if he wanted to portray the “True worship” to the Father could mean anything less? (In John 4:20-24 the word “proskyneō” is used 9 times in Jesus discussion with the Samaritan woman about the “True Worship”.) In all the scriptures that speak of Jesus being worshipped (proskyneō) why didn’t Jesus once say do not worship me? (Since Peter and John refused proskyneō) David said it is because Peter was humble. Then that means that Peter was more humble than Jesus. No, Peter said “He also was a man”. To say that it is because Jesus wasn’t being worshipped but just being honored lacks evidence because there are no other NT examples of the word proskyneō being used toward any one with honor other than the Father and Jesus. In every case the word is directed to any other it is refused or it is a worshipping falsely. Please can someone give us a NT example of the word being used in honor to any other than the Father and Jesus? Where is the NT example of a bowing down to someone out of great respect? Now please stop rewording my statements to fit your response. WJ

WJ

why not go to the pope or is jesuits,they would all agree with you,there harms are open like the ABBYS OF DEAD.

your discussion is all abode WORDS;2Ti 2:14 Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.

you do no good,like i told you before you do not understand Christ spirit ,you are only not following scriptures;;; 2Ti 2:16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.
2Ti 2:17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
2Ti 2:18 who have wandered away from the truth

all the topics on words have end up being useless and have not advance the truth ,to understand the spirit of Christ and his father,

prove go back in the beginning of those topics.

Pierre

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 05 2010,14:44)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 06 2010,13:23) Hi All David and Mike claim they have answered my points, but I am going to bring them up again so everyone can see that they have not. Also I have bolded the points in the end so that they have another chance at proving me wrong. In John 4:20-24 the word “proskyneō” is used 9 times in Jesus discussion with the Samaritan woman about the “True Worship”. Why did John and Jesus choose the word if he wanted to portray the “True worship” to the Father could mean anything less? Now here is a tidbit for those who have ears to hear… Jesus said… But the hour cometh, and now is, when THE TRUE WORSHIPPERS [GR PROSKYNĒTĒS] SHALL WORSHIP the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23 Notice Strong's G4353 –  “proskynētēs”, it is a masculine noun which means “worshippers” and is only found ONCE in the NT. It is the root word for the verb “proskyneō”. So that means that every time you see the verb “proskyneō” it is being performed by someone who is a “worshipper” “proskynētēs”!   In all the scriptures that speak of Jesus being worshipped (proskyneō) why didn’t Jesus once say do not worship me? To say that it is because Jesus wasn’t being worshipped but just being honored lacks evidence because there are no other NT examples of the word proskyneō being used toward any one with honor other than the Father and Jesus. In every case the word is directed to any other it is refused or it is a worshipping falsely. The burden of proof is on the gainsayers. The rhetoric about the word proskyneō not meaning “worship” but just bowing down out of respect is not in the NT. Please can someone give us a NT example of the word being used in honor to any other than the Father and Jesus? Where is the NT example of a bowing down to someone out of great respect? Why did Jesus use the word in describing “True Worship” (proskyneō) to God and not rebuke those who worshipped (proskyneō) him? Here are the main points they have not addressed. Why did John and Jesus choose the word if he wanted to portray the “True worship” to the Father could mean anything less? (In John 4:20-24 the word “proskyneō” is used 9 times in Jesus discussion with the Samaritan woman about the “True Worship”.) In all the scriptures that speak of Jesus being worshipped (proskyneō) why didn’t Jesus once say do not worship me? (Since Peter and John refused proskyneō) David said it is because Peter was humble. Then that means that Peter was more humble than Jesus. No, Peter said “He also was a man”. To say that it is because Jesus wasn’t being worshipped but just being honored lacks evidence because there are no other NT examples of the word proskyneō being used toward any one with honor other than the Father and Jesus. In every case the word is directed to any other it is refused or it is a worshipping falsely. Please can someone give us a NT example of the word being used in honor to any other than the Father and Jesus? Where is the NT example of a bowing down to someone out of great respect? Now please stop rewording my statements to fit your response. WJ WJ why not go to the pope or is jesuits,they would all agree with you,there harms are open like the ABBYS OF DEAD. your discussion is all abode WORDS;2Ti 2:14 Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. you do no good,like i told you before you do not understand Christ spirit ,you are only not following scriptures;;; 2Ti 2:16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 2Ti 2:17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 2Ti 2:18 who have wandered away from the truth all the topics on words have end up being useless and have not advance the truth ,to understand the spirit of Christ and his father, prove go back in the beginning of those topics. Pierre

Peirre

Why don't you refute my points instead of just puking out more of your condemning and foolish diatribe.

Seriously you need to grow up.  

WJ

[terraricca]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 06 2010,12:00)

Quote (942767 @ Nov. 04 2010,21:22) WJ: He said: for my sake and the sake of the gospel.  We are submitted to God through him.  When we obey him we are obeying God in that he is doing the will of God. Marty What does this mean Marty? Are you saying you are not submitted to Jesus, but only God through him? Are you saying that you are not obeying Jesus but only God? Jesus didn't say that Paul would suffer for the Fathers sake did he? He didn't say that they were to lose their lives for the Fathers sake did he? He didn't say for “their” sake did he? Why do you anti-trinitarians seek to diminish honor and credit to Jesus? Basically you explain his authority and power out of existence like he is a “puppet on a string” or something like a “funnel”. This is clear and simple. The Mosaic law forbids such devotion to a man or a creature other than God. God has not changed his mind has he? Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: (and yet we look to Jesus by whom we are changing into Jesus image) “THOU SHALT NOT BOW DOWN THYSELF TO THEM, NOR SERVE THEM: FOR I THE LORD THY GOD AM A JEALOUS GOD“, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; Gen 20:3-5 Jesus is a religious figure and requires that we follow him even to death or as a Martyr to him if he so requires like he did of the Apostles save one, John.. Do you see that is a violation of the Mosaic law for anyone to place such demands on them. Can you see that the devotion to Jesus when they bowed down to Jesus and worshipped him would be crossing the line. If not then that must mean that you put limits on your devotion to him. Do you? If you do not put any limits on your devotion to him then tell me how that would not be breaking the commandment if Jesus is not God? Their giving all and following Jesus even to a Martyrs death is a “complete abandonment of self” which is a good definition for “WORSHIP” pure and simple. Jesus is either an “Idol” or he is God. Which one is he to you? WJ

WJ

all trinitarians will all agree that Jesus is God ,

your question is out of scriptures and do not need a scriptural answer.

it is a question to the apostasy.

Pierre

[Worshipping Jesus]

BTW Peirre

You never answered my question…

“Do you pray to Jesus and have fellowship with him?

If not why not?

If so how do you explain the conundrum you have of praying to anything or anyone but God?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 05 2010,15:19)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 06 2010,12:00) Quote (942767 @ Nov. 04 2010,21:22) WJ: He said: for my sake and the sake of the gospel.  We are submitted to God through him.  When we obey him we are obeying God in that he is doing the will of God. Marty What does this mean Marty? Are you saying you are not submitted to Jesus, but only God through him? Are you saying that you are not obeying Jesus but only God? Jesus didn't say that Paul would suffer for the Fathers sake did he? He didn't say that they were to lose their lives for the Fathers sake did he? He didn't say for “their” sake did he? Why do you anti-trinitarians seek to diminish honor and credit to Jesus? Basically you explain his authority and power out of existence like he is a “puppet on a string” or something like a “funnel”. This is clear and simple. The Mosaic law forbids such devotion to a man or a creature other than God. God has not changed his mind has he? Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: (and yet we look to Jesus by whom we are changing into Jesus image) “THOU SHALT NOT BOW DOWN THYSELF TO THEM, NOR SERVE THEM: FOR I THE LORD THY GOD AM A JEALOUS GOD“, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; Gen 20:3-5 Jesus is a religious figure and requires that we follow him even to death or as a Martyr to him if he so requires like he did of the Apostles save one, John.. Do you see that is a violation of the Mosaic law for anyone to place such demands on them. Can you see that the devotion to Jesus when they bowed down to Jesus and worshipped him would be crossing the line. If not then that must mean that you put limits on your devotion to him. Do you? If you do not put any limits on your devotion to him then tell me how that would not be breaking the commandment if Jesus is not God? Their giving all and following Jesus even to a Martyrs death is a “complete abandonment of self” which is a good definition for “WORSHIP” pure and simple. Jesus is either an “Idol” or he is God. Which one is he to you? WJ WJ all trinitarians will all agree that Jesus is God , your question is out of scriptures and do not need a scriptural answer. it is a question to the apostasy. Pierre

Peirre

Have you completely abandoned yourself to follow Jesus?

Would you die for Jesus if he so required of you to be a martyr?

If the answer is yes to the above then Jesus is either your “idol” or he is “your God”, which is it?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Peirre

If you are not gonna add anything to the discussion then please stop spamming the thread with foolish diatribe. This is considered to be in violation of sight rules you know?

WJ

[Author]

Posts