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Quote (Is 1:18 @ Dec. 02 2006,14:03) Hi Cubes and David,
Cornelius fell down to worship (proskuneō) Peter in Acts 10:25, but Peter made it clear that it was inappropriate to proskuneō him as he was just a man.Acts 10:25-26
And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped (Gr. proskuneō) him. 26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also, am a man.Likewise, John sought to worship an angel twice in Revelation(19:10; 22:8,9), but the angel also forbade it because he was a “fellow servant” and commanded him to “proskuneō theos.”
Revelation 19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship (Gr. proskuneō) him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship (Gr. proskuneō) God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.Revelation 22:8-9
And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship (Gr. proskuneō) before the feet of the angel which showed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship (Gr. proskuneō) God.Considering the data in these passages would you agree that there appears to be a type of proskuneō that cannot rightly be offered to anyone other than God, proskuneō that, if given to the wrong subject, constitutes idolatry?
Could I please have a 'yes' or 'no' answer….and yes, I will have some follow up questions (you knew I would!!)…
Many blessings
Hi Is,Considering the data in ALL of scripture, YES.
And to you, even more blessings.
Hi ,
Mark 12:6
Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.
Luke 20:13
Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.
Ephesians 5:33
Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
Hebrews 12:9
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Hebrews 12:28
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:Number 1788
Transliteration:
entrepo {en-trep'-o}
Word Origin:
from 1722 and the base of 5157
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
reverence 4, regard 2, be ashamed 2, shame 1Total: 9
Definition:
to shame one
to be ashamed
to reverence a person
to turn aboutSo this reverence that should be given to the Son is similar to that with which a wife treats her husband or a son his father. It is rather less than the minimal attitude that should be used with our fearfully awesome God.
Quote Hi Cubes and David,
Cornelius fell down to worship (proskuneō) Peter in Acts 10:25, but Peter made it clear that it was inappropriate to proskuneō him as he was just a man.Acts 10:25-26
And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped (Gr. proskuneō) him. 26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also, am a man.Likewise, John sought to worship an angel twice in Revelation(19:10; 22:8,9), but the angel also forbade it because he was a “fellow servant” and commanded him to “proskuneō theos.”
Revelation 19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship (Gr. proskuneō) him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship (Gr. proskuneō) God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.Revelation 22:8-9
And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship (Gr. proskuneō) before the feet of the angel which showed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship (Gr. proskuneō) God.Considering the data in these passages would you agree that there appears to be a type of proskuneō that cannot rightly be offered to anyone other than God, proskuneō that, if given to the wrong subject, constitutes idolatry?
Could I please have a 'yes' or 'no' answer….and yes, I will have some follow up questions (you knew I would!!)…
Many blessings
Hi Is 1:18
Excellent points.
Jesus is…..
Advocate (1 John 2:1)
Almighty (Rev. 1:8; Mt. 28:18)
Alpha and Omega (Rev. 1:8; 22:13)
Amen (Rev. 3:14)
Apostle of our Profession (Heb. 3:1)
Atoning Sacrifice for our Sins (1 John 2:2)
Author of Life (Acts 3:15)
Author and Perfecter of our Faith (Heb. 12:2)
Author of Salvation (Heb. 2:10)
Beginning and End (Rev. 22:13)
Blessed and only Ruler (1 Tim. 6:15)
Bread of God (John 6:33)
Bread of Life (John 6:35; 6:48)
Bridegroom (Mt. 9:15)
Capstone (Acts 4:11; 1 Pet. 2:7)
Chief Cornerstone (Eph. 2:20)
Chief Shepherd (1 Pet. 5:4)
Christ (1 John 2:22)
Creator (John 1:3)
Deliverer (Rom. 11:26)
Eternal Life (1 John 1:2; 5:20)
Gate (John 10:9)
Faithful and True (Rev. 19:11)
Faithful Witness (Rev. 1:5)
Faithful and True Witness (Rev. 3:14)
First and Last (Rev. 1:17; 2:8; 22:13)
Firstborn From the Dead (Rev. 1:5)
Firstborn over all creation (Col. 1:15)
Gate (John 10:9)
God (John 1:1; 20:28; Heb. 1:8; Rom. 9:5; 2 Pet. 1:1;1 John 5:20; etc.)
Good Shepherd (John 10:11,14)
Great Shepherd (Heb. 13:20)
Great High Priest (Heb. 4:14)
Head of the Church (Eph. 1:22; 4:15; 5:23)
Heir of all things (Heb. 1:2)
High Priest (Heb. 2:17)
Holy and True (Rev. 3:7)
Holy One (Acts 3:14)
Hope (1 Tim. 1:1)
Hope of Glory (Col. 1:27)
Horn of Salvation (Luke 1:69)
I Am (John 8:58)
Image of God (2 Cor. 4:4)
Immanuel (Mt. 1:23)
Judge of the living and the dead (Acts 10:42)
King Eternal (1 Tim. 1:17)
King of Israel (John 1:49)
King of the Jews (Mt. 27:11)
King of kings (1 Tim 6:15; Rev. 19:16)
King of the Ages (Rev. 15:3)
Lamb (Rev. 13:8)
Lamb of God (John 1:29)
Lamb Without Blemish (1 Pet. 1:19)
Last Adam (1 Cor. 15:45)
Life (John 14:6; Col. 3:4)
Light of the World (John 8:12)
Lion of the Tribe of Judah (Rev. 5:5)
Living One (Rev. 1:18)
Living Stone (1 Pet. 2:4)
Lord (2 Pet. 2:20)
Lord of All (Acts 10:36)
Lord of Glory (1 Cor. 2:8)
Lord of lords (Rev. 19:16)
Man from Heaven (1 Cor. 15:48)
Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15)
Mighty God (Isa. 9:6)
Morning Star (Rev. 22:16)
Offspring of David (Rev. 22:16)
Only Begotten Son of God (John 1:18; 1 John 4:9)
Our Great God and Savior (Titus 2:13)
Our Holiness (1 Cor. 1:30)
Our Husband (2 Cor. 11:2)
Our Protection (2 Thess. 3:3)
Our Redemption (1 Cor. 1:30)
Our Righteousness (1 Cor. 1:30)
Our Sacrificed Passover Lamb (1 Cor. 5:7)
Power of God (1 Cor. 1:24)
Precious Cornerstone (1 Pet. 2:6)
Prophet (Acts 3:22)
Rabbi (Mt. 26:25)
Resurrection and Life (John 11:25)
Righteous Branch (Jer. 23:5)
Righteous One (Acts 7:52; 1 John 2:1)
Rock (1 Cor. 10:4)
Root of David (Rev. 5:5; 22:16)
Ruler of God’s Creation (Rev. 3:14)
Ruler of the Kings of the Earth (Rev. 1:5)
Savior (Eph. 5:23; Titus 1:4; 3:6; 2 Pet. 2:20)
Son of David (Lk. 18:39)
Son of God (John 1:49; Heb. 4:14)
Son of Man (Mt. 8:20)
Son of the Most High God (Lk. 1:32)
Source of Eternal Salvation for all who obey him (Heb. 5:9)
The One Mediator (1 Tim. 2:5)
The Stone the builders rejected (Acts 4:11)
True Bread (John 6:32)
True Light (John 1:9)
True Vine (John 15:1)
Truth (John 1:14; 14:6)
Way (John 14:6)
Wisdom of God (1 Cor. 1:24)
Word (John 1:1)
Word of God (Rev. 19:13)http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/jesustitles.htm
Jesus has been given all Power, Honor, Glory, Blessing, Dominion, Wisdom, Strength, Knowledge.
And a name that is ABOVE EVERY NAME, ALL things were made by him and FOR HIM, And without HIM was not ANYTHING MADE THAT WAS MADE!
HE IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, and BY HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST!
Pss 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me,
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
In the Voume of the book it is written of Jesus! However as then even so now, they will not hear his words.
Jn 12:40
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.Matt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
The carnal man without the Spirit can not see that in the volume of the book it is written about Jesus.
These men allude to a God they call their Father. They have built an image of God after an image of a natural father.
They have built an image of his Son after the image of a natural son.
They do not understand that God the Father has given everything to the Son, and that everything was made by him and for him. Everything points to Jesus. He is the exalted one.
Matt 17:5
While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; HEAR YE HIM.
[6] And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
[7] And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
[8] And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save JESUS ONLY.They do not believe that the Father would have us to serve the Lord Jesus as the Master with all our heart, soul, mind and strength, and that in serving, worshiping, bowing down to the King of Glory , then we also are loving the Father for the Father loves the son for they are ONE!
Jn 8:41,42
Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, [even] God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither c
ame I of myself, but he sent me.Jn 5:22,23
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath **committed all judgment** unto the Son: That all [men] ***should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father***. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.Pss 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me,
Jn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which TESTIFY of me.
There is the Creator and everything else is the created
The last I checked, all of creation is to worship the Creator!
Heb 1:66
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.Quote Quote (Faith First @ Dec. 02 2006,05:15)
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.It is clear here that Christ is worthy of worship because He is God. The Father says so.
Hi FF,
Right. So far so good. But what do you do w/ verse 9 (i.e. Heb 1:9)?
Remember that Jesus considers himself as different being, with a different will than his Father. He is the God who does not do his own will but the will of his Father.
Thats right Cubes. And what is the will of the Father?
8] But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
[9] Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
[10] And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
[11] They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
[12] And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
[13] But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
[14] Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?The will of the Father is to worship him Jesus the creator
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Its simple! Creator – Created. Let all of creation worship the created!
Quote Its simple! Creator – Created. Let all of creation worship the created! Typo, should be…
Its simple! Creator – Created. Let all of creation worship the creator!
Quote Hi , Mark 12:6
Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.
Luke 20:13
Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.
Ephesians 5:33
Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
Hebrews 12:9
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Hebrews 12:28
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:Number 1788
Transliteration:
entrepo {en-trep'-o}
Word Origin:
from 1722 and the base of 5157
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
reverence 4, regard 2, be ashamed 2, shame 1Total: 9
Definition:
to shame one
to be ashamed
to reverence a person
to turn aboutSo this reverence that should be given to the Son is similar to that with which a wife treats her husband or a son his father. It is rather less than the minimal attitude that should be used with our fearfully awesome God.
NH
Every scripture you used here is not an example of “proskuneo”.
Not one of the scriptures use the word “proskuneo”
How can you use these to compare to the “proskuneo” of the Son of God?
Hi W,
Of course not but they reveal more about how God wants us to relate to the Son using another word His Spirit has given us in scripture. PROSKUNEO has many uses apart from worship yet trinitarians lean heavily on it to try to prove Jesus is not the Son of God, whom he said he was, but God Himself.Why they must oppose the words of the Master amazes me.
He is the TRUTH, not a LIAR.
Quote Scripture mentions numerous examples of Christ accepting worship. Hi first faith. In your Bible the word proskyneo is translated as “worship” most likely because the ones who translated your Bible had a trinitarian bias. It could just as easily be translated as “giving obesience” or “bowing down” or several other ways. In the Bible, that Greek work proskyneo and the Hebrew equivalent are also used in reference to humans, to kings, etc. It's clear that it's not always to be translated worship. For example, when they were spitting on Jesus, mocking him, some Bibles say that they were worshipping him. But really, the word proskyneo has the basic meaning of “bowing down” and doesn't always imply worship. In this instance, for example, they clearly WERE NOT worshipping Jesus, but were simply bowing down to him in a mocking way. Yet, some Bible's (such as the KJ) mistakingly translate this “worship.” Other Bibles make the same mistakes.
The point of all this is that you can't look at your Bible and say: See, Jesus is God because he is worshipped, without understanding what the word proskyneo means. People look at this and use it to support the Jesus is Almighty God belief. And when they have that belief, they use that to support the way they translate proskyneo–as “worship.”
It's extremely circular in reasoning.
Notice this staunch JW in vain attempts to “explain away” Jesus being worshipped by using his NWT.
The key word you will notice is in “Your Bible” because it is indeed THE Bible and not “his” Bible. He then contradicts himself by saying that “our” Bible has a Trinitarian slant but will not admit that he uses a book bent on Arian doctrine…the removal of any hint that Christ was indeed worshipped.
You will strive in futility on discussing God with this Jehovah Witness. Like all that are brainwashed, he is a mere slave of the Watchtower…ever defending and never ending – babble!
Circular reasoning huh? eg: “Jesus is not worshipped…my (b)ible says so…'your' Bible is wrong” and then he will try to show this words of folly by posting his masters quotes; anything produced from the Watchtower. Just another daughter of the Great Whore of Babylon.
Here is an example of how a lil witness is trained from the age of a seven year old:
Posted: Nov. 21 2006,23:01
——————————————————————————–
My little girl who is seven came home last night. She told her mother something that my wife found very ironic. A little girl in her class who is a friend of hers told her she is not allowed to celebrate Christmas or holidays. My little girl asked why and she said that her religion has their own Bible. Wow, from the mouths of babes huh? Even this seven year old girl understands that her religion is not based on “our” Bible or should I say THE Bible, the pure Words of God – undefiled.her “religion” has “their own bible”…couldn't have said it better myself lil one.
By the way: Anyone that will imply that this has nothing to do with your current discussion is missing my point. JW around the globe help proclaim this heresy as one of their key tenents. I am simply pointing out their error.
Quote (Cubes @ Dec. 03 2006,16:36) Considering the data in ALL of scripture, YES.
Hi again Cubes,
Sorry it's taking me a while to respond to posts these days (busy times)…I guess the only real way to determine whether “proskuneō” is used to denote worship appropriate for the One true God is the context in which the word is placed into, right? Would you agree that this passage is describing the kind of worship that is appropriate only for YHWH?
Revelation 4:10-11
10the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11″Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”Again, it's another 'yes' or 'no' question.
Blessings
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Dec. 05 2006,23:57) Quote (Cubes @ Dec. 03 2006,16:36) Considering the data in ALL of scripture, YES.
Hi again Cubes,
Sorry it's taking me a while to respond to posts these days (busy times)…I guess the only real way to determine whether “proskuneō” is used to denote worship appropriate for the One true God is the context in which the word is placed into, right? Would you agree that this passage is describing the kind of worship that is appropriate only for YHWH?
Revelation 4:10-11
10the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11″Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”Again, it's another 'yes' or 'no' question.
Blessings
Hello Is,Not so fast, buddy!
Not sure I understand what you mean by “context” entirely.
But I would say that it is important to know WHO is proskuneo'd and WHY. Whether or not such a person IS the Most High God or UNDER God. It determines the degree and spirit in which they are proskuneo'd. Done the wrong way, God is offended, the right way, he is glorified.If this is what you mean by context, then Yes, I agree.
Quote (Cubes @ Dec. 05 2006,22:10) Hello Is, Not so fast, buddy!
Not sure I understand what you mean by “context” entirely.
But I would say that it is important to know WHO is proskuneo'd and WHY. Whether or not such a person IS the Most High God or UNDER God. It determines the degree and spirit in which they are proskuneo'd. Done the wrong way, God is offended, the right way, he is glorified.If this is what you mean by context, then Yes, I agree.
Okay thanks – i'll take that as a yes. And by “context” I specifically mean the set of circumstances or facts that surround a particular event, situation, etc. Bear with me Cubes, one more two-part question and then I'll give you my thoughts.Revelation 5:11-14
11Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” 14And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen ” And the elders fell down and worshiped.Is this the 'reserved only for God' kind of worship? and if not, why not?
PS; all my best to your husband, nice guy!
Quote Cubes @ Dec. 05 2006,22:10)
Hello Is,Not so fast, buddy!
Not sure I understand what you mean by “context” entirely.
But I would say that it is important to know WHO is proskuneo'd and WHY. Whether or not such a person IS the Most High God or UNDER God. It determines the degree and spirit in which they are proskuneo'd. Done the wrong way, God is offended, the right way, he is glorified.If this is what you mean by context, then Yes, I agree.
Okay thanks – i'll take that as a yes. And by “context” I specifically mean the set of circumstances or facts that surround a particular event, situation, etc. Bear with me Cubes, one more two-part question and then I'll give you my thoughts.
Revelation 5:11-14
11Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” 14And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen ” And the elders fell down and worshiped.Is this the 'reserved only for God' kind of worship? and if not, why not?
PS; all my best to your husband, nice guy!
Excellent Is 1:18
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Dec. 06 2006,07:20) Quote (Cubes @ Dec. 05 2006,22:10) Hello Is, Not so fast, buddy!
Not sure I understand what you mean by “context” entirely.
But I would say that it is important to know WHO is proskuneo'd and WHY. Whether or not such a person IS the Most High God or UNDER God. It determines the degree and spirit in which they are proskuneo'd. Done the wrong way, God is offended, the right way, he is glorified.If this is what you mean by context, then Yes, I agree.
Okay thanks – i'll take that as a yes. And by “context” I specifically mean the set of circumstances or facts that surround a particular event, situation, etc. Bear with me Cubes, one more two-part question and then I'll give you my thoughts.Revelation 5:11-14
11Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” 14And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen ” And the elders fell down and worshiped.Is this the 'reserved only for God' kind of worship? and if not, why not?
PS; all my best to your husband, nice guy!
Hi Is 1.18
Who are the elders?Quote (Is 1:18 @ Dec. 06 2006,07:20) Revelation 5:11-14
11Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” 14And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen ” And the elders fell down and worshiped.Is this the 'reserved only for God' kind of worship? and if not, why not?
Hi Is 1:18
Which version are you quoting?
Because in the KJV, the context clearly is Almighty GOD who sits upon the throne.
(Rev 5:14) And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.In the Book of Revelation, the annotation, liveth for ever and ever, is used in regards to Almighty GOD who sits upon the throne; as in Rev 4.9,10;10.6,15.7
So my answer would be, that according to the KJV,NKJV
it is the 'God kind of worship' as you put it!Otherwise, going by the ambiguity shown in the other translations of Rev 5.14, my answer would be that it is the same type of worship as shown in Rev 5.13 and
(1 Chr 29:20) And David said to all the congregation, Now bless YAHWEH your God. And all the congregation blessed YAHWEH God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped YAHWEH, and the king.Quote (Is 1:18 @ Dec. 06 2006,12:20) Quote (Cubes @ Dec. 05 2006,22:10) Hello Is, Not so fast, buddy!
Not sure I understand what you mean by “context” entirely.
But I would say that it is important to know WHO is proskuneo'd and WHY. Whether or not such a person IS the Most High God or UNDER God. It determines the degree and spirit in which they are proskuneo'd. Done the wrong way, God is offended, the right way, he is glorified.If this is what you mean by context, then Yes, I agree.
Okay thanks – i'll take that as a yes. And by “context” I specifically mean the set of circumstances or facts that surround a particular event, situation, etc. Bear with me Cubes, one more two-part question and then I'll give you my thoughts.Revelation 5:11-14
11Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” 14And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen ” And the elders fell down and worshiped.Is this the 'reserved only for God' kind of worship? and if not, why not?
PS; all my best to your husband, nice guy!
Hi Is,Until you can separate the body from the head, or the living stones from the chief corner stone, or Jesus sitting on his throne from those whom the Father has given him and chosen to sit at Jesus' right hand… those who would sit w/ Jesus on his throne as he promised… until you can separate the bride from her groom… flesh, bones, joints, sinews from itself…
Here are the options:
1) Either the body of Christ would be proskuneo'd in like manner, indiscriminately and without prejudice, as indicated in Rev 5:11-14, (since after all, we are one with Christ etc)
OR
2) We can recognize the preeminence of Christ and acknowledge that although we are his body, in him, and in his vicinity, for various reasons and his specific experiences, he is our Lord and is the Lamb of God UNIQUELY and SPECIFICALLY referred to in 5:11f.
3) Now if one subscribes to option 2, then the Father must by necessity be recognized with even greater sovereignty and preeminence in all things. I subscribe to option 2 and subsequently, by joyous default, to option 3!
These are the only options.
The Trinity option does not fit this model. Besides, the Holy Spirit is presumably missing as per the Trinity model.
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.Col 2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.
The content (what is being said to whom) and context acknowledges that God Almighty is the HIGHEST sovereign known anywhere.
Hi Is,
BTW, thanks for the greetings to Spheres. I shall pass it on. He considers you a champion for your common cause and a brother in arms. Of course you know I wish you'd choose the winning side and abandon the pursuit of the ever elusive and evasive Trinity.
Quote Otherwise, going by the ambiguity shown in the other translations of Rev 5.14, my answer would be that it is the same type of worship as shown in Rev 5.13 and
(1 Chr 29:20) And David said to all the congregation, Now bless YAHWEH your God. And all the congregation blessed YAHWEH God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped YAHWEH, and the king.AP
Did any under the law or prophets standing in the presence of an earthly king fall down as dead?
Rev 1:8-18
8] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, ***the Almighty***.
[9] I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
[10] I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
[11] Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
[12] And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
[13] And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
[14] His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
[15] And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
[16] And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
[17] And when I saw him, ***I fell at his feet as dead***. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
[18] I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.To compare the worship of YHWH and the earthly kings under the Old Covenant to the worship of the Father and the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, the Lamb who sits on the throne under the new Covenant is ambiguous to say the least.
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