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Hi,
This topic always causes a flood of opinions so perhaps we should look at it on it's own.Jn 4.21
” Jesus said to her
'Woman, believe me an hour is coming when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall you WORSHIP THE FATHER.
You worship that which you do not know ;we worship that which we know;for salvation is from the Jews.
But an hour is coming, and now is , when the
TRUE WORSHIPPERS shall WORSHIP THE FATHER in spirit and truth;for such people THE FATHER SEEKS TO BE HIS WORSHIPPERS.
God is spirit;and those who WORSHIP HIM must worship in spirit and in truth'”This is the teaching of Jesus about worship.
He says we should worship the Father.Hi, If you read the Old Testament is there any doubt whom we should worship? No it is the Father.
Come full circle and look around. Churches advertising on the internet and on billboards;
“Come worship Jesus with us.”
Where do we see churches saying
“Come worship the Father with us? “They do not seem to exist.
What has happened?
Is this what God wants?
Should the Father still be worshipped?
Should both be worshipped?
Should we worship the Spirit?
If so how and in what order?Nothing in our teachings suggests that the worship has changed from God to the Son of God. Nothing teaches that the Son of God is to be worshipped. Where has this come from? Is it a fruit of trinity teaching that there are three that are one and equal? I am starting to think this is apostasy and evil. What do others think?
John 5:23 – That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
All men should indeed honour the son and the Father. We need to honour both in order to truly honour each one.
But only the Father is worshipped as God. Yehsua is worshipped/honoured as the Lamb and the son of God. He is not worshipped as God in scripture.
Hebrews 1:6
And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.”Matthew 2:2
and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him.”Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”Revelation 5: 12-14
12 In a loud voice they sang: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”
14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.So he is worshipped/honoured as
- the Lamb;
- the son of God;
- King of the Jews;
- the firstborn.
But not as God. For it is written:
1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.Ephesians 4:4-6
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.Jesus is God. Look at His Position when all this is over:
The Throne of God and of the Lamb! They are one, but not one and the same! Over their creation.
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Rev 22: 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. 6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done… …8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. 10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Excellent Topic, Nick.
Adding to what t8 has said, I also noticed in Revelations 4 that similarly to the epistles, the Father is first to be acknowledged in worship. He is the one to whom the elders cast their crowns even though our conditioning has taught us differently. He is before all and this worship is exclusive to him. He is worshipped day and night. And yes, Jesus is worshipped as the Son or Lamb OF God:
Rev 4:8 The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying:“Holy,* holy, holy,
Lord God Almighty,
Who was and is and is to come!”9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
11 “You are worthy, *O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they *exist and were created.”Revelations 15:3 They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying:
“Great and marvelous are Your works,
Lord God Almighty!
Just and true are Your ways,
O King of the saints!
4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name?
For You alone are holy.
For all nations shall come and worship before You,
For Your judgments have been manifested.”Quote (Cubes @ April 23 2005,22:17) Revelations 15:3 They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying: “Great and marvelous are Your works,
Lord God Almighty!
Just and true are Your ways,
O King of the saints!
4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name?
For You alone are holy.
For all nations shall come and worship before You,
For Your judgments have been manifested.”
All things were created by Jesus and for Jesus. Looks to me like they are Worshipping the Lamb and the Father!And Again the Lord God Almighty is the only ONE Holy, The Father and the Son, The son is The Holy one of God.
So since Jesus IS HOLY, He is GOD, because God is the ONLY ONE HOLY!
So by your own quotes you are mistaken and you're error evident!
Quote (Rudy @ April 23 2005,23:26) Quote (Cubes @ April 23 2005,22:17) Revelations 15:3 They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying: “Great and marvelous are Your works,
Lord God Almighty!
Just and true are Your ways,
O King of the saints!
4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name?
For You alone are holy.
For all nations shall come and worship before You,
For Your judgments have been manifested.”All things were created by Jesus and for Jesus. Looks to me like they are Worshipping the Lamb and the Father!
And Again the Lord God Almighty is the only ONE Holy, The Father and the Son, The son is The Holy one of God.
So since Jesus IS HOLY, He is GOD, because God is the ONLY ONE HOLY!
So by your own quotes you are mistaken and you're error evident!
Hi Rudy,My understanding states that God Almighty, the Father of Jesus, is the only one who is Holy, Holy, Holy. The one who alone is True, Good, and Holy from whom we all derive our holiness. This is true of Christ and through Christ, true of us.
The song of the Lamb is a song by Moses and Yeshua for the Father. The entire song speaks of the Father. Moses the bearer of the written Law in Sinai and Yeshua the Holy One Of God who came to fulfill those laws and tell us of the Royal law. Together they say the Judgments of God have been made manifest.
In addition to the afore-mentioned scriptures which speak of the holiness of God, I add these as an example of how Jesus considers the Father holy and how we too are considered and called to be holy as God is holy.
Jerusalem is the Holy City of God.
Jhn 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. HOLY FATHER, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].
1Th 5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 3:5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
Rudy, you say that there is one throne for God and the lamb. That is true, but what are you hoping to dervive from that truth. For just as Christ is seated with the Father on the Fathers throne, we too will be seated with Christ on his throne. Just because Christ is seated with the Father doesn't make them the same God, and we who are seated with Christ are not all one Christ either. Christ's inheritance is in God and our inheritance is in Christ. Christ reigns with God and we reign with Christ.
Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.You then talk about worship and seem to derive that anything that is honoured or worshipped is God. But King David was worshiped as King of Israel and Christ is worshiped as the son of God. Even God's children can be honoured for who they are.
1 Chronicles 29:20
Then David said to the whole assembly, “Praise the LORD your God.” So they all praised the LORD , the God of their fathers; they bowed low and fell prostrate before the LORD and the king.Revelation 3:9
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.Worship is a word that isn't always applied to God. Sometimes we give honour to people. It depends on why you honour or worship. If we worship anyone but God as God, then that is a breaking of the 1st commandment. But to honour Yeshua as the son of God is what God wants us to do.
I personally honour Yeshua as the son of God and the Christ. I honour him as my shepherd and I praise him and thank him for dieing for me to give me life. Doing this brings glory to God who sent him. How could I not do such things to someone so great. If someone saved my life, would I not be thankful to that person. Would I not show honour to that person especially if they sacrificed something of themself to do it.
Rudy, you say that Jesus Christ created everything. That is not true. It was God that created all things, but he did it through Christ (the Word).
James 1:17-18
17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of first fruits of all he created.Colossians 1:12-16
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.Quote (Rudy @ April 23 2005,23:26) All things were created by Jesus and for Jesus.
Correction, Rudy, all things are made by God and for God. By God, I use Jesus' definition: The Almighty God aka Father.Yeshua is the heir of all things.
We are co-heirs with Christ, not with the Father.
It is the Father who is the giver of all good things but has given his son power to have life.Let's worship Yahweh, by the way, He will be sitting in the Third Temple during the Millenium and His name is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, you guessed it:
Zech 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD (Yahweh) of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
This verse speaks of the Lord Yeshua reigning and receiving worship during the millenium in the 3rd Temple, in this verse His name is Yahweh.
You bend scripture to suit your distorted view. Why do that? What do you think will be your reward?
Yehsua is the Word OF God. He is not YHWH.
Men will worship God as you said. But Christ being YHWH is false teaching.If you resist scripture and truth, then God will allow you to do it. But what will be your reward for doing so?
Quote (t8 @ April 24 2005,03:27) You bend scripture to suit your distorted view. Why do that? What do you think will be your reward? Yehsua is the Word OF God. He is not YHWH.
Men will worship God as you said. But Christ being YHWH is false teaching.If you resist scripture and truth, then God will allow you to do it. But what will be your reward for doing so?
Rubbish t8, Rudy has not bent scripture one bit. He is taking a literal interpretation of a messianic escatological passage and comparing scripture with scripture to reach a logical conclusion. If he was allegorising it into oblivion you might have a point. If Rudy is guilty of anything it is taking God at His word.
To Is 1:18,
Quote He is taking a literal interpretation of a key escatological passage and comparing scripture with scripture to reach a logical conclusion. Take the logical conclusion into the following scriptures then:
1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.Ephesians 4:4-6
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.John 14:1
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God, trust also in me.What answer do you have against such scriptures?
Here is another 100, in case you think that these scriptures are just additions:
https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-11.htm
You both (Is 1:18 & Rudy) have no scriptural proof to say that Yeshua is YHWH. That is what you imagine from what you have received from mere men. It it is not scriptural. There is one God who's name is YHWH. Not 3 or 2 or any other number but 1. This was the first commandment for a reason.
If you teach against the commandments then what do you expect me to say. It is one thing to believe error, but quite another to teach it and defend it. You can only suffer rebuke if you teach lies.
Quote (Rudy @ April 24 2005,02:59) Let's worship Yahweh, by the way, He will be sitting in the Third Temple during the Millenium and His name is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, you guessed it: Zech 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD (Yahweh) of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
This verse speaks of the Lord Yeshua reigning and receiving worship during the millenium in the 3rd Temple, in this verse His name is Yahweh.
Hi Rudy,
Clearly you are unfamiliar with scripture.Scripture differentiates between God and Jesus right until the end of the last book. The Lamb of God is shown as separate from God even in the last chapter of the last book of the bible.
Rev 22.1
“..from the throne of God
and of
the Lamb”Rev 22.3
” ..but the Throne of God
and of
the Lamb”In your view it should only say the throne of God surely?
You are altering scripture to say otherwise and risking the curse written in the same chapter.
Quote (Rudy @ April 24 2005,02:59) Let's worship Yahweh, by the way, He will be sitting in the Third Temple during the Millenium and His name is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, you guessed it: Zech 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD (Yahweh) of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
This verse speaks of the Lord Yeshua reigning and receiving worship during the millenium in the 3rd Temple, in this verse His name is Yahweh.
Hi Rudy.
Did the Jews worship the Father?
If so where did they worship Him?
Do you agree that they worshipped God in the temple in Jerusalem?
Did God live there then?
Scripture says He had His abode there among men does it not?
Or did God live in heaven and manifest His Glory in the temple?
When Jesus was on earth did he worship the Father?
Was it in the Holy of Holies he went to worship the Father?
Did he tell us to go to any location to worship God?
We will sit on thrones.[Rev 20.4]Does that mean to you we will be worshipped?
Zech 14 says the King,the Lord of hosts will be worshipped in Jerusalem. Does that prove God will have left heaven and be living there to be worshipped?
Scripture says God will again have his abode among men in Rev 21. Is it any different then?
Do we have to be in God's actual vicinity to worship Him? Does not scripture say we are the temple of the Holy Spirit ?Quote (liljon @ April 27 2005,16:42) Jesus is YHVH t8
Zechariah 14:5 Romans 10, 1 cor 1:2 Rev 1:18 Isaiah 44:24 John 1:3
Why does the foghorn keep sounding when there is no fog?Perhaps it has come adrift and is floating away?
Perhaps it is faulty and has no power connected?
Certainly it's sensors are not working as they should.
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