Why are there two deaths?

This topic contains 100 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by  Anthony 2 weeks, 6 days ago.

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  • #790264
     NickHassan 
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    Hi t8,

    Are you not confusing Hades with the lake of fire?

    Hell is an unfortunate term.

     

    #790267
     t8 
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    Are you telling me this or repeating what I have said all along. lol.

    Yes, Death and Hades end in the Lake of Fire, the Second Death.

    Wicked souls existing in Hades for eternity is proven wrong by that scripture alone.

    Do you believe that the wicked will suffer for all eternity in Hades given that you are aware of Hades fate?

    #833647
     t8 
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    According to the Bible, The Second Death doesn’t allow anyone to be tormented in Hell for eternity as some think. It is written clearly in scripture that Hell is thrown into the Lake of Fire and the heavens and earth too. Then behold, there is a new earth and heavens and no more sin. God is good and only the righteous inherit eternal life. Some people think the Bible teaches that the wicked will have eternal life in hell, that is wrong on three points.

    1. The wicked do not inherit eternal life, (John 3:16).
    2. The human soul is not eternal, (Matthew 10:28);
    3. While Hell is a place of torment, it is not eternal as it is thrown into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14);

    Eternal judgement is what it says it is. It is a judgement that is eternal. If the wicked perish, it means they perish for eternity. They will never have life. But God has the last say in all things. While the soul that sins will die, God did find a way to save sinners.

    Read more

    #835572
     Anthony 
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    Hi

    Hell and sheol

    Surely we have to accept this testimony of the translators themselves as to their honesty of purpose, but this does not explain why, in their translation, they almost always used the word ‘hell’ to translate the Hebrew word sheol when the reference was to the wicked, and ‘grave’ when the text pertained to the righteous.

    And how simple it would have been to use the word ‘hell’ instead of ‘grave’ in Ecclesiastes 9:10; and how truth-revealing it would have been concerning the doctrine of hell. We quote the text with this translation: “Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in hell [sheol] whither thou goest.” From this text alone, the English-speaking Christian who reads the King James Translation would have known that hell is not a place of torture, but a state of unconsciousness.

    Genesis 37:35 is another revealing use of the Hebrew word sheol, or would have been had the King James translators used the word ‘hell’ to translate sheol, as they did in thirty-one other texts. In this text, Jacob, a faithful servant of God, weeping for Joseph, said, “I will go down into hell unto my son mourning.” From this text, had sheol been translated ‘hell’ instead of ‘grave’, the Christian world would have learned that the righteous as well as the wicked go to hell when they die.

    The word sheol appears again in Job 14:13. In this text we find it Job asking God to let him die. Translating sheol by the word ‘hell’, this is what Job said: “O that thou wouldest hide me in hell, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!” The Old English word hell, or helle, meant ‘to be covered’, or ‘concealed’, and how appropriate it would have been to use it in Job’s prayer—a prayer in which he asked to be hidden, and to be kept in secret.

    There seems little excuse for the translators not using the word ‘hell’ in this prayer of Job’s, yet, had they done so, the Bible would be saying that when a person dies he escapes God’s wrath, instead of having divine wrath poured out upon him in all its Dark Age fury. Yes, the translators did have a problem, but if they had been consistent in their translation of sheol.

    It is not that the King James translators were compelled always to use the word ‘grave’ as a translation of sheol unless the reference was to the wicked, for in Psalm 16:10 they departed from this pattern and used the word ‘hell’ when they must have known that the text applied to Jesus. “Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell,” the text prophetically says of Jesus. In keeping with this text, and this translation, the Apostles’ Creed [which the apostles never saw nor heard of] states that Jesus “descended into hell.” Surely, if the Holy One, Jesus went to hell when he died the translators should have had no hesitancy in using the word ‘hell’ in texts referring to the death of other righteous persons.

    It is obvious, of course, why they used the word ‘hell’ in the case of Jesus. If they had used the word ‘grave’, the text would have said that Jesus’ soul went into the grave, and this the translators did not believe. Since they wanted the reader of their translations to believe that hell was a place in which souls are alive, and the wicked ones tortured, it was thought better to put Jesus’ soul there rather than to have it die, as the Bible really teaches. Isaiah wrote of Jesus that “he … poured out his soul unto death.”—Isa. 53:12

    The Greek word, hades, in the New Testament is the one which corresponds with sheol in the Old Testament. The translators of the King James Version recognized this, and in Acts 2:27 used the word ‘hell’ to translate hades. In this verse, Peter quotes Psalm 16:10 pertaining to the death and resurrection of Jesus. How clearly and beautifully this reveals the divine plan for the salvation of fallen man from sin’s penalty, which is death!

    “The wages of sin is death.” (Rom. 6:23) Had the King James translators grasped the reality of this simple statement of divine truth, and in keeping with it, maintained uniformity in their translations of sheol and hades, how much easier it would have been for both the learned and the unlearned to grasp the truth of the divine plan!

    Sheolhades, hell, all describe the state of the dead. In the English language, ‘grave’ more properly describes the burial place, the excavation in the earth where the earthly remains of the dead are interred. In the Hebrew language the word qburah, or qeber, is the one most nearly corresponding to the English word grave. Since death is the penalty for sin, and Jesus took upon himself that penalty, it is logical that the Scriptures should speak of him as being in sheol, or hades, the Bible hell. So are the wicked tormented for ever NO. The words ever, ever for ever, eternal means age, ages of ages  and age. They have a starting point and they have a end. Oh there’s much more. God bless

    #835573
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Anthony,

    Time is short. Men live once and then they die.

    Then comes to judgement, unless you have passed over from death to life.

    Judgement is of mercy and according to the works of men towards the reborn brothers of Jesus Christ.

    Those who fail the test meet the second death.

    #835575
     t8 
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    And the test and friut is love. Those who do not love do not belong to God, for God is love.

    #835582
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Anthony…..Good post, yes those words HADES , SHEOL. HELL, all simply mean the GRAVE.  Not a place where the dead are still alive. Good job.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

    #835608
     Anthony 
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    Hi All

    Scripture use of the words “death” and “destruction.”
    The opinion of the annihilation of the wicked, which has at different times been held by some, as a refuge from the doctrine of never-ending punishment, is not only opposed to the whole analogy of our regeneration, which shews how death and judgment are the only way of life and deliverance for a fallen creature, but also so directly contradicts what is said of “death” in Scripture, that it is difficult to conceive how it could ever have been accepted by believers. Even before the reason of the Cross is seen, the very letter of Scripture, one might have thought, would have kept men from concluding that the “death,” “destruction,” and “perishing,” of the wicked means their non-existence or annihilation. For what is “death”? What is “destruction”? How are these words invariably used in Holy Scripture?

    First, as to “death,” are any of the varied deaths, which Scripture speaks of as incident to man, his non-existence or annihilation? Take as examples the deaths referred to by St. Paul, in the sixth, seventh, and eighth chapters of the Epistle to the Romans. We read, (Rom. 6:7,) “He that is dead is freed from sin.” Is this “death,” which is freedom from sin, non-existence or annihilation? Again, where the Apostle says, (Rom. 7:9,) “I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died,”—was this “death,” wrought in him by the law, annihilation? Again, where he says, (Rom. 8:6,) “To be carnally minded is death,” is this death non-existence or annihilation? And again, when he says, (Rom. 8:38,) “Neither death nor life shall separate us,” is the “death” here referred to annihilation? When Adam died on the day he sinned, (Gen. 2:17,) was this annihilation? When his body died, and turned to dust, (Gen. 5:5,) was this annihilation? Is our “death in trespasses and sins,” (Eph. 2:1-2,) annihilation? Is our “death to sin,” (Rom. 6:11,) annihilation? When the “corn of wheat falls into the ground and dies,” (John 12:24,) is it annihilated; or is St. Paul right in saying, (1 Cor. 15:37,) “That which thou sowest is not quickened except it die?” Do not these and similar uses of the word prove beyond all question, that whatever else these deaths may be, not one of them is non-existence or annihilation? On what grounds, I ask, are we to assign a sense to this particular death which confessedly the word “death” has not and cannot have elsewhere? Where is the proof that there is and can be no resurrection from the second death? The truth is, death for man is simply an end to, and separation from, some given form of life which he has lived in. Death to God is separation from His world of light, by the destruction, through the lie of the serpent, of the divine life of light and love in us. Death to sin, the exact converse of this, is the separation from the world of darkness, by the destruction, through the truth, of the dark life of unbelief and self-love. The death wrought by the law is the end of, and separation from, our fallen carnal life of self-sufficiency; while what is commonly called death, namely the death of the body, is simply our separation from the outward world, in which we live, as partakers of its outward life, while we are in the body.  Let us see that there are three worlds, each having its own life,—a light world, a dark world, and this outward seen world,—and then what is said in Scripture of the new birth, or of the varied deaths we pass through, becomes at once self-evident. For the only way into any world is by a birth into it, even as the only way out of any world is by a death to it. We have by sin died to God’s light-world, to fall into and live in a spirit-world of darkness. We must by the truth, that is by Christ, die to this dark spirit-world, to return to live in God’s light-world. The outward birth and death of the body, and its life, have only to do with the outward seen world.

    For this reason it is that the word “destruction,” as used in Scripture, never means annihilation. Take for instance the words of the 90th Psalm, “Thou turnest man to destruction: again Thou sayest, Come again, ye children of men.” Can “destruction” here be annihilation? Is it not rather that dissolution which must take place if fallen creatures are ever to be brought back perfectly to God’s kingdom. So, again, Job says, (Job 19:10,) “He hath destroyed me on every side, and I am gone”; and again, (Job 9:22,) “This one thing I said, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.” But does he mean to say that he is brought to non-existence, or that the “perfect” will be so destroyed that they will exist no longer? So, again, St. Peter says, (2 Pet. 3:6,) “The world that then was perished.” So, again, of the present heavens and earth it is said, (Heb. 1:11-12,) “They shall perish, . . . and be changed.” So, again, both of Israel and Jerusalem it is said, (Deut. 30:18; Jer. 12:17; 15:6;) that they shall be “destroyed” and “perish.” But does any one suppose that therefore they will be annihilated? So, again, as to the expression, “them that perish,” sometimes translated “the lost”; (see 2 Cor. 4:3; 1 Cor. 1:18; 2 Cor. 2:15;) do we not know that these “lost,” though they “perish,” still exist, and exist both as “lost” ones and as “saved” ones, as text on text will testify abundantly. So as to the righteous, in the well-known passage of Isaiah; (Isa. 57:1;) “The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart”;—is this “perishing” non-existence? So, again, where we read, in Psalm 83:16-18, “Fill their faces with shame, that they may seek thy name, O Lord: let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame and perish; that men” (literally “they,” for the word “men” is not in the Original,) “may know that Thou, whose name is Jehovah, art the Most High over all the earth;”—men are to be “confounded for ever and perish, that they may know Jehovah.” So as to the question, “Wilt Thou shew wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise Thee? Shall thy loving-kindness be declared in the grave, or thy faithfulness in destruction?”—is the true answer, Yes, or No? Is not the “losing” or “destruction” of our fallen life the only way to a better one? Does not our Lord Himself say more than once, (Matt. 10:39; 16:25; John 12:25;) that the way to “save our life,” or “soul,” is to “lose it,” or “have it destroyed,” in its fallen form, that it may be re-created?

    These last words should of themselves settle this question, for in one place, (Matt. 10:39,) they occur in immediate connexion (see Matt. 10:28,) with those other well-known words, as to “fearing him who can destroy both body and soul in hell,” which are constantly quoted by some to prove, as they think, that “destruction” must be non-existence. And yet, in the very closest connexion with these words, our Lord repeats this self-same word, “destroy,” (in our Authorized Version translated (“lose“) to express that death and dissolution of the soul, which, so far from bringing it to non-existence, is the appointed way to save it. Christ saves it, as we have seen, by death; for being fallen into sin, what is needed is “that the body of sin should be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.” (Rom. 6:6.) The elect, that is the first-fruits, are the living proof of this. A “new man” is created in them, and the “old man” dies and is destroyed, while yet he in whom all this is done remains through all the same person. It may be, and is, a riddle, like “dying, and behold we live: having nothing, and yet possessing all things”; yet it is only the riddle of the Cross, that “by death God destroys him that has the power of death.” Therefore, though destruction, like death, may be, and is, a ceasing from some particular form of life which has been lived in by man, yet it is never non-existence absolutely; rather it is the means to bring the fallen creature into a new life, a chaos being ever the necessary condition for a new creation.

    As for the argument, founded by some on the word destruction, that because it is one of the strongest in the Greek language, therefore that destruction must be irremediable, the simple answer is, that the question is not whether the destruction is great, but whether God is not still greater, and therefore whether He is not able even out of the destruction to bring forth better things. This at least is certain, that both in the New Testament and in Classical Greek, the word in question is used of those who though “destroyed” are yet “saved.” To the passages already quoted from the New Testament I will only add one more:—”The Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which was lost:” ( Luke 19:10.)  the New Testament use of the word proves that it describes, not so much preservation from future or threatened judgment, (in which case  would be used, as in John 17:15, Rev. 3:10, Jude 1, 1 Thess.5:23,  but rather deliverance out of some present and oppressing evil. So we read, (Matt. 9:21-22,) “And the woman said within herself, if I may but touch His garment, I shall be made whole,” that is restored to health; “and the woman, was made whole,” that is restored to health, “from that hour.” So again, (Mark 5:23,) “And Jairus besought Him greatly, saying, I pray Thee, lay Thy hands upon her, that she may be healed.” So too, (Mark 6:56,) “And as many as touched Him, were made whole.” So too, in reference to Lazarus, (John 11:12,) “Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well,” that is, he shall be restored to health. See also Luke 8:36; 18:42; Acts 4:9; James 5:15; &c. See also what is said of our Lord, (Heb. 5:7,) that “in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers unto Him that was able to save Him from death,(literally “out of death,”) “He was heard in that He feared.” But He was not preserved from death, but delivered out of it. Our salvation also, like our Lord’s, for we are His members, is not from death, but by it, and out of it. God bless

    #835610
     Anthony 
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    To All

    Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise thee?
    Shall thy loving-kindness be declared in the grave? Or thy faithfulness in destruction?”
    — Psalm 88:10-11.

    Think about this scripture and give me a Yes or No.   God bless

    #835615
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Anthony,

    Is God faithful? yes.

    Does He forget His children who die?

    No. But all are not His children. Walk in the light and with care.

     

    #835616
     Anthony 
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    Hi Nick

    The first-born and first-fruits are the “few” and “little flock;” but these, though first delivered from the curse, have a relation to the whole creation, which shall be saved in the appointed times by the first-born seed, that is by Christ and His body, through those appointed baptisms, whether of fire or water, which are required to bring about “the restitution of all things.” St. Paul expressly declares this when he says, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ, … that in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are in the earth, even in Him.” (Eph. 1:3-10. The same doctrine is stated in almost the same words, Eph. 2:4-7.) The Church, like Christ its Head, is itself a great sacrament; “an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace given unto men; ordained by God Himself, as a means whereby they may receive the same, and a pledge to assure them thereof;” and “the blessing” of the elect, “with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ,” is but the means and pledge, as the Apostle says, of wider blessing; the means by which “in the dispensation of the fulness of times” God designs to “gather together in one all things in Christ, whether they be things which are in heaven or which are in earth, even in Him;” and the pledge that He both can and will do it, as He has already done it in some of the weakest and the worst; for “God hath chosen the base things of the world, yea and things which are not” (1 Cor. 1:27-28); to shew to all that there are none so weak but He can save, and none so vile, but He can change and cleanse them.

    Nick all creation, which now groans, shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption, into the glorious liberty of the children of God” (Rom. 8:19-23). In another place he declares, that “God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself” (2 Cor. 5:19), and that Christ “took our flesh and blood, through death to destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil” (Heb. 2:14); that “if by the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many” (Rom. 5:15): that “therefore as by the offence of one, or by one offence, judgment came on all to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of one, or by one righteousness, the free gift should come on all unto justification of life,” while “they which receive abundance of grace, and of the gift of righteousness, shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ” (Rom. 5:17-18); that “as sin hath reigned unto death, so grace might reign unto eternal life,” yea, that “where sin abounded, grace did yet much more abound” (Rom. 5:20-21). To another church he states the same doctrine, that “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:22); and that “the end” shall not come “till all are subject to Him,” that “God may be,” not all in some, but “all in all; for He must reign till He hath put all enemies under His feet; the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death” (1 Cor. 15:24-28). So he says again, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ, … that in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are in earth, even in Him” (Eph. 1:3-10).

    Nick “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:22); and that “the end” shall not come “till all are subject to Him,” that “God may be,” not all in some, but “all in all; for He must reign till He hath put all enemies under His feet; the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death” (1 Cor. 15:24-28). So he says again, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ, … that in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are in earth, even in Him” (Eph. 1:3-10)

    Nick all died,  all alive. There no  difference.              God bless Nick

     

    #835617
     Anthony 
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    Nick   If the unjust  are in the grave which they are. what would be the purpose to resurrect them to be judged, to put them in a non-existenting state again, are you telling me that there’s are different degrees of non- exsitentens?             God bless Nick

    #835618
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Anthony,

    Those who reject the offer of salvation in the Son can expect the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

    Repent and be reborn into the Son by water and the Spirit while there is time.

    #835619
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Anthony,

    The letters of the apostles are not written to the world but to the ones who have the obeyed the call of God to be rescued.

    He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life,

    but the wrath of God abides in him.

    jn 3.36

    #835622
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Anthony,

    Yes. All are resurrected.

    Every behaviour of every man is recorded and faces examination.

    Heb 9.27

    And inasmuch, as is appointed for men to die once, and after this comes judgement .

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