Who did god sacrifice his son to?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2009,15:49)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 31 2009,22:24) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2009,13:36) Hi Bo, Quote How is David the offspring of Jesus in physicality? And once you answer that then you must answer how is it that the scripture talks about the offspring of the suffering servant was Jesus suffering when he was the root of David? You see your mind is stuck on key words that you have been taught, I can find scriptures that have the word pierce, transgressors, intercession, Saviour, redeemer and you will always assume they are referring to Jesus but most will not, so now tell me how was Jesus suffering before David was his offspring? Why does the suffering have to be before David existed?  The main idea is that the same one that was the root of David was also the offspring of David.  He suffered at His crucifixion when He was a sheep that was slain.  He saw or will see His offspring after His death and resurrection.  He was the root of David as the Son of GOD that was David's source and He was the offspring of David as the Son of Man. Remember that I have shown you that the verses in Isaiah is speaking of Jesus as is proven by Acts 8:32-37, remember?  It is not an assumption but proof.  Please realize this for your own benefit my friend. God's love, Kathi It says that the suffering servant would see his offspring, How was Jesus suffering before David. You see referring to King Hezekiah we have the verse “Thy throne o God” and then people refer to it as if it was about Jesus but the psalmist was talking about Hezekiah just like the verse “To us a child is born, a son is given and he shall be called mighty God” these are not verses about Jesus Note: I was paraphrasing Bo, Do you think that Jesus sees or will see David in heaven?  There He will see His offspring.  Also, because of Him shedding His blood for others is why He will see them. In Hebrews referring to the Son of God we have the verse “Thy throne O God…” Heb 1:8-12 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.” NASU This is also about Jesus: Luke 2:10-14 10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people; 11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. 12 “This will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.” 13 And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying, 14 “Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased.” NASU What “son” do you think is referred to in the verse “To us a child is born, a son is given and he shall be called might God” and what “son” was God referring to in the Hebrews passage? Kathi

The accurate translation from Hebrew to English of this verse is, “For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us. . .”

Isaiah 9:5-6 is talking about King Hezekiah. The reason we believe this is because if you look at Isaiah 9:4, it talks about a battle that was similiar to the battle of Midian. What was this battle? It is a glorious battle that took place thousands of years ago. By reading the Jewish scriptures, you will see that this battle was when King Hezekiah led the Jews in a battle against the Assyrian army and won. References to this battle and King Hezekiah and his battle against the Assyrians can be found in Judges 7, Judges 8, Isaiah 36, Isaiah 37, Isaiah 38, and Isaiah 3.

Isaiah 9:6 says Hezekiah's kingdom is declared to be forever, for through his efforts to cleanse the Temple ritual of idolatry, even though apostasy followed under his son Menasseh, the Davidic dynasty was once more confirmed as the only true kingly rule that God would accept over his people “from henceforth and forever.” In the long run Hezekiah's achievements would outlive him, leaving an everlasting, indelible impact on the history of his people. Thus, God, through Isaiah, bestows upon Hezekiah this name which honors the king by proclaiming the great things God will do for him, and, through him, for the people of Israel.

As for the reason why this child who became King Hezekiah was called “Mighty god, everlasting father, prince of peace and etc, the reason is as follows:

Hezekiah is called “the mighty God” because this name is a sign that foretells God's defense of Jerusalem through the miraculous sudden mass death of Sennacherib's army (Isaiah 37:33-35).

He is called is called “the everlasting Father” because this name is a sign, which foretells that God will add years to his life. “Go, and say to Hezekiah: Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; behold, I will add to your days fifteen years” (Isaiah 38:5).

Hezekiah is called “the ruler of peace” because this name is a sign, which foretells that God would be merciful to him. Punishment for lack of faith in the Almighty will be deferred and peace granted during the last years of his rule. “Then said Hezekiah to Isaiah: 'Good is the word of the Lord which you have spoken.' He said moreover: 'If but there shall be peace and security in my days'” (Isaiah 39:8).

The fulfillment of the above-stated declarations is foretold in Isaiah 9:6, when, after the Assyrian defeat, Hezekiah's glory increased and peace reigned for the rest of his life (2 Chronicles 32:23).

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Jesus showed the enlivened men on the way to Emmaeus how thoughout the OT he had been spoken about.
You will miss them as the carnal Jews did.

[bodhitharta]

Hezekiah means “the Mighty God” in English

[Lightenup]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 01 2009,01:16)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2009,15:49) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 31 2009,22:24) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2009,13:36) Hi Bo, Quote How is David the offspring of Jesus in physicality? And once you answer that then you must answer how is it that the scripture talks about the offspring of the suffering servant was Jesus suffering when he was the root of David? You see your mind is stuck on key words that you have been taught, I can find scriptures that have the word pierce, transgressors, intercession, Saviour, redeemer and you will always assume they are referring to Jesus but most will not, so now tell me how was Jesus suffering before David was his offspring? Why does the suffering have to be before David existed?  The main idea is that the same one that was the root of David was also the offspring of David.  He suffered at His crucifixion when He was a sheep that was slain.  He saw or will see His offspring after His death and resurrection.  He was the root of David as the Son of GOD that was David's source and He was the offspring of David as the Son of Man. Remember that I have shown you that the verses in Isaiah is speaking of Jesus as is proven by Acts 8:32-37, remember?  It is not an assumption but proof.  Please realize this for your own benefit my friend. God's love, Kathi It says that the suffering servant would see his offspring, How was Jesus suffering before David. You see referring to King Hezekiah we have the verse “Thy throne o God” and then people refer to it as if it was about Jesus but the psalmist was talking about Hezekiah just like the verse “To us a child is born, a son is given and he shall be called mighty God” these are not verses about Jesus Note: I was paraphrasing Bo, Do you think that Jesus sees or will see David in heaven?  There He will see His offspring.  Also, because of Him shedding His blood for others is why He will see them. In Hebrews referring to the Son of God we have the verse “Thy throne O God…” Heb 1:8-12 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.” NASU This is also about Jesus: Luke 2:10-14 10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people; 11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. 12 “This will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.” 13 And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying, 14 “Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased.” NASU What “son” do you think is referred to in the verse “To us a child is born, a son is given and he shall be called might God” and what “son” was God referring to in the Hebrews passage? Kathi The accurate translation from Hebrew to English of this verse is, “For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us. . .”   Isaiah 9:5-6 is talking about King Hezekiah. The reason we believe this is because if you look at Isaiah 9:4, it talks about a battle that was similiar to the battle of Midian. What was this battle? It is a glorious battle that took place thousands of years ago. By reading the Jewish scriptures, you will see that this battle was when King Hezekiah led the Jews in a battle against the Assyrian army and won. References to this battle and King Hezekiah and his battle against the Assyrians can be found in Judges 7, Judges 8, Isaiah 36, Isaiah 37, Isaiah 38, and Isaiah 3. Isaiah 9:6 says Hezekiah's kingdom is declared to be forever, for through his efforts to cleanse the Temple ritual of idolatry, even though apostasy followed under his son Menasseh, the Davidic dynasty was once more confirmed as the only true kingly rule that God would accept over his people “from henceforth and forever.” In the long run Hezekiah's achievements would outlive him, leaving an everlasting, indelible impact on the history of his people. Thus, God, through Isaiah, bestows upon Hezekiah this name which honors the king by proclaiming the great things God will do for him, and, through him, for the people of Israel.   As for the reason why this child who became King Hezekiah was called “Mighty god, everlasting father, prince of peace and etc, the reason is as follows: Hezekiah is called “the mighty God” because this name is a sign that foretells God's defense of Jerusalem through the miraculous sudden mass death of Sennacherib's army (Isaiah 37:33-35). He is called is called “the everlasting Father” because this name is a sign, which foretells that God will add years to his life. “Go, and say to Hezekiah: Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; behold, I will add to your days fifteen years” (Isaiah 38:5). Hezekiah is called “the ruler of peace” because this name is a sign, which foretells that God would be merciful to him. Punishment for lack of faith in the Almighty will be deferred and peace granted during the last years of his rule. “Then said Hezekiah to Isaiah: 'Good is the word of the Lord which you have spoken.' He said moreover: 'If but there shall be peace and security in my days'” (Isaiah 39:8).   The fulfillment of the above-stated declarations is foretold in Isaiah 9:6, when, after the Assyrian defeat, Hezekiah's glory increased and peace reigned for the rest of his life (2 Chronicles 32:23).

Hi Bo,
I have considered what you have to say about King Hezekiah and about what Matthew Henry had to say. I believe after considering both your words, the passage in question-Isa 9:6-7, is more fully a prophecy about the Messiah because Jesus' kingdom has no end and Hezekiah's reign ended.

Isa 9:6-7
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and
to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
KJV

Here is what Matthew Henry, a Bible Commentator says about this passage:

Isaiah 9:6-7

II. But who, where, is he that shall undertake and accomplish these great things for the church? The prophet tells us (v. 6,7) they shall be done by the Messiah, Immanuel, that son of a virgin whose birth he had foretold (ch. 7:14), and now speaks of, in the prophetic style, as a thing already done: the child is born, not only because it was as certain, and he was as certain of it as if it had been done already, but because the church before his incarnation reaped great benefit and advantage by his undertaking in virtue of that first promise concerning the seed of the woman, Gen 3:15. As he was the Lamb slain, so he was the child born, from the foundation of the world, Rev 13:8. All the great things that God did for the Old-Testament church were done by him as the eternal Word, and for his sake as the Mediator. He was the Anointed, to whom God had respect (Ps 84:9), and it was for the Lord's sake, for the Lord Christ's sake, that God caused his face to shine upon his sanctuary, Dan 9:17. The Jewish nation, and particularly the house of David, were preserved many a time from imminent ruin only because that blessing was in them. What greater security therefore could be given to the church of God then that it should be preserved, and be the special care of the divine Providence, than this, that God had so great a mercy in reserve for it? The Chaldee paraphrast understands it of the man that shall endure for ever, even Christ. And it is an illustrious prophecy of him and of his kingdom, which doubtless those that waited for the consolation of Israel built much upon, often turned to, and read with pleasure.

1. See him in his humiliation. The same that is the mighty God is a child born; the ancient of days becomes an infant of a span long; the everlasting Father is a Son given. Such was his condescension in taking our nature upon him; thus did he humble and empty himself, to exalt and fill us. He is born into our world. The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us. He is given, freely given, to be all that to us which our case, in our fallen state, calls for. God so loved the world that he gave him. He is born to us, he is given to us, us men, and not to the angels that sinned. It is spoken with an air of triumph, and the angel seems to refer to these words in the notice he gives to the shepherds of the Messiah's having come (Luke 2:11), Unto you is born, this day, a Saviour. Note, Christ's being born and given to us is the great foundation of our hopes, and fountain of our joys, in times of greatest grief and fear.

2. See him in his exaltation. This child, this son, this Son of God, this Son of man, that is given to us, is in a capacity to do us a great deal of kindness; for he is invested with the highest honour and power, so that we cannot but be happy if he be our friend.

(1.) See the dignity he is advanced to, and the name he has above every name. He shall be called (and therefore we are sure he is and shall be) Wonderful, Counsellor, &c. His people shall know him and worship him by these names; and, as one that fully answers them, they shall submit to him and depend upon him. [1.] He is wonderful, counsellor. Justly is he called wonderful, for he is both God and man. His love is the wonder of angels and glorified saints; in his birth, life, death, resurrection, and ascension, he was wonderful. A constant series of wonders attended him, and, without controversy, great was the mystery of godliness concerning him. He is the counsellor, for he was intimately acquainted with the counsels of God from eternity, and he gives counsel to the children of men, in which he consults our welfare. It is by him that God has given us counsel, Ps 16:7; Rev 3:18. He is the wisdom of the Father, and is made of God to us wisdom. Some join these together: He is the wonderful counsellor, a wonder or miracle of a counsellor; in this, as in other things, he has the pre-eminence; none teaches like him. [2.] He is the mighty God—God, the mighty One. As he has wisdom, so he has strength, to go through with his undertaking: he is able to save to the utmost; and such is the work of the Mediator that no less a power than that of the mighty God could accomplish it. [3.] He is the everlasting Father, or the Father of eternity; he is God, one with the Father, who is from everlasting to everlasting. He is the author of everlasting life and happiness to them, and so is the Father of a blessed eternity to them. He is the Father of the world to come (so the LXX. reads it), the father of the gospel-state, which is put in subjection to him, not to the angels, Heb 2:5. He was, from eternity, Father of the great work of redemption: his heart was upon it; it was the product of his wisdom as the counsellor, of his love as the everlasting Father. [4.] He is the prince of peace. As a King, he preserves the peace, commands peace, nay, he creates peace, in his kingdom. He is our peace, and it is his peace that both keeps the hearts of his people and rules in them. He is not only a peaceable prince, and his reign peaceable, but he is the author and giver of all good, all that peace which is the present and future bliss of his subjects.

(2.) See the dominion he is advanced to, and the throne he has above every throne (v. 6): The government shall be upon his shoulder—his only. He shall not only wear the badge of it upon his shoulder (the key of the house of David, ch. 22:22), but he shall bear the burden of it. The Father shall devolve it upon him, so that he shall have an incontestable right to govern; and he shall undertake it, so that no doubt can be made of his governing well, for he shall set his shoulder to it, and will never complain, as Moses did, of his being overcharged. I am not able to bear all this people, Num 11:11,14. Glorious things are here spoken of Christ's government, v. 7. [1.] That it shall be an increasing government. It shall be multiplied; the bounds of his kingdom shall be more and more enlarged, and many shall be added to it daily. The lustre of it shall increase, and it shall shine more and more brightly in the world. The monarchies of the earth were each less illustrious than the other, so that what began in gold ended in iron and clay, and every monarchy dwindled by degrees; but the kingdom of Christ is a growing kingdom, and will come to perfection at last. [2.] That it shall be a peaceable government, agreeable to his character as the prince of peace. He shall rule by love, shall rule in men's hearts; so that wherever his government is there shall be peace, and as his government increases the peace shall increase. The more we are subject to Christ the more easy and safe we are. [3.] That it shall be a rightful government. He that is the Son of David shall reign upon the throne of David and over his kingdom, which he is entitled to. God shall give him the throne of his father David, Luke 1:32,33. The gospel church, in which Jew and Gentile are incorporated, is the holy hill of Zion, on which Christ reigns, Ps 2:6. [4.] That it shall be administered with prudence and equity, and so as to answer the great end of government, which is the establishment of the kingdom: He shall order it, and settle it, with justice and judgment. Every thing is, and shall be, well managed, in the kingdom of Christ, and none of his subjects shall ever have cause to complain. [5.] That it shall be an everlasting kingdom: There shall be no end of the increase of his government (it shall be still growing), no end of the increase of the peace of it, for the happiness of the subjects of this kingdom shall last to eternity and perhaps shall be progressive in infinitum—for ever. He shall reign henceforth even for ever; not only throughout all generations of time, but, even when the kingdom shall be delivered up to God even the Father, the glory both of the Redeemer and the redeemed
shall continue eternally. [6.] That God himself has undertaken to bring all this about: “The Lord of hosts, who has all power in his hand and all creatures at his beck, shall perform this, shall preserve the throne of David till this prince of peace is settled in it; his zeal shall do it, his jealousy for his own honour, and the truth of his promise, and the good of his church.” Note, The heart of God is much upon the advancement of the kingdom of Christ among men, which is very comfortable to all those that wish well to it; the zeal of the Lord of hosts will overcome all opposition.
(from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible, PC Study Bible Formatted Electronic Database Copyright © 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All Rights reserved.)

So, Bo, there are similarities between Hezekiah and Christ but I believe that the passage is truer for Christ since His kingdom is truly eternal and Hezekiah’s was not.

Thanks for your time,
Kathi

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 02 2009,03:38)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 01 2009,01:16) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2009,15:49) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 31 2009,22:24) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2009,13:36) Hi Bo, Quote How is David the offspring of Jesus in physicality? And once you answer that then you must answer how is it that the scripture talks about the offspring of the suffering servant was Jesus suffering when he was the root of David? You see your mind is stuck on key words that you have been taught, I can find scriptures that have the word pierce, transgressors, intercession, Saviour, redeemer and you will always assume they are referring to Jesus but most will not, so now tell me how was Jesus suffering before David was his offspring? Why does the suffering have to be before David existed?  The main idea is that the same one that was the root of David was also the offspring of David.  He suffered at His crucifixion when He was a sheep that was slain.  He saw or will see His offspring after His death and resurrection.  He was the root of David as the Son of GOD that was David's source and He was the offspring of David as the Son of Man. Remember that I have shown you that the verses in Isaiah is speaking of Jesus as is proven by Acts 8:32-37, remember?  It is not an assumption but proof.  Please realize this for your own benefit my friend. God's love, Kathi It says that the suffering servant would see his offspring, How was Jesus suffering before David. You see referring to King Hezekiah we have the verse “Thy throne o God” and then people refer to it as if it was about Jesus but the psalmist was talking about Hezekiah just like the verse “To us a child is born, a son is given and he shall be called mighty God” these are not verses about Jesus Note: I was paraphrasing Bo, Do you think that Jesus sees or will see David in heaven?  There He will see His offspring.  Also, because of Him shedding His blood for others is why He will see them. In Hebrews referring to the Son of God we have the verse “Thy throne O God…” Heb 1:8-12 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.” NASU This is also about Jesus: Luke 2:10-14 10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people; 11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. 12 “This will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.” 13 And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying, 14 “Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased.” NASU What “son” do you think is referred to in the verse “To us a child is born, a son is given and he shall be called might God” and what “son” was God referring to in the Hebrews passage? Kathi The accurate translation from Hebrew to English of this verse is, “For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us. . .”   Isaiah 9:5-6 is talking about King Hezekiah. The reason we believe this is because if you look at Isaiah 9:4, it talks about a battle that was similiar to the battle of Midian. What was this battle? It is a glorious battle that took place thousands of years ago. By reading the Jewish scriptures, you will see that this battle was when King Hezekiah led the Jews in a battle against the Assyrian army and won. References to this battle and King Hezekiah and his battle against the Assyrians can be found in Judges 7, Judges 8, Isaiah 36, Isaiah 37, Isaiah 38, and Isaiah 3. Isaiah 9:6 says Hezekiah's kingdom is declared to be forever, for through his efforts to cleanse the Temple ritual of idolatry, even though apostasy followed under his son Menasseh, the Davidic dynasty was once more confirmed as the only true kingly rule that God would accept over his people “from henceforth and forever.” In the long run Hezekiah's achievements would outlive him, leaving an everlasting, indelible impact on the history of his people. Thus, God, through Isaiah, bestows upon Hezekiah this name which honors the king by proclaiming the great things God will do for him, and, through him, for the people of Israel.   As for the reason why this child who became King Hezekiah was called “Mighty god, everlasting father, prince of peace and etc, the reason is as follows: Hezekiah is called “the mighty God” because this name is a sign that foretells God's defense of Jerusalem through the miraculous sudden mass death of Sennacherib's army (Isaiah 37:33-35). He is called is called “the everlasting Father” because this name is a sign, which foretells that God will add years to his life. “Go, and say to Hezekiah: Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; behold, I will add to your days fifteen years” (Isaiah 38:5). Hezekiah is called “the ruler of peace” because this name is a sign, which foretells that God would be merciful to him. Punishment for lack of faith in the Almighty will be deferred and peace granted during the last years of his rule. “Then said Hezekiah to Isaiah: 'Good is the word of the Lord which you have spoken.' He said moreover: 'If but there shall be peace and security in my days'” (Isaiah 39:8).   The fulfillment of the above-stated declarations is foretold in Isaiah 9:6, when, after the Assyrian defeat, Hezekiah's glory increased and peace reigned for the rest of his life (2 Chronicles 32:23). Hi Bo, I have considered what you have to say about King Hezekiah and about what Matthew Henry had to say.  I believe after considering both your words, the passage in question-Isa 9:6-7, is more fully a prophecy about the Messiah because Jesus' kingdom has no end and Hezekiah's reign ended. Isa 9:6-7 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Th e mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. KJV Here is what Matthew Henry, a Bible Commentator says about this passage: Isaiah 9:6-7 II. But who, where, is he that shall undertake and accomplish these great things for the church? The prophet tells us (v. 6,7) they shall be done by the Messiah, Immanuel, that son of a virgin whose birth he had foretold (ch. 7:14), and now speaks of, in the prophetic style, as a thing already done: the child is born, not only because it was as certain, and he was as certain of it as if it had been done already, but because the church before his incarnation reaped great benefit and advantage by his undertaking in virtue of that first promise concerning the seed of the woman, Gen 3:15. As he was the Lamb slain, so he was the child born, from the foundation of the world, Rev 13:8. All the great things that God did for the Old-Testament church were done by him as the eternal Word, and for his sake as the Mediator. He was the Anointed, to whom God had respect (Ps 84:9), and it was for the Lord's sake, for the Lord Christ's sake, that God caused his face to shine upon his sanctuary, Dan 9:17. The Jewish nation, and particularly the house of David, were preserved many a time from imminent ruin only because that blessing was in them. What greater security therefore could be given to the church of God then that it should be preserved, and be the special care of the divine Providence, than this, that God had so great a mercy in reserve for it? The Chaldee paraphrast understands it of the man that shall endure for ever, even Christ. And it is an illustrious prophecy of him and of his kingdom, which doubtless those that waited for the consolation of Israel built much upon, often turned to, and read with pleasure. 1. See him in his humiliation. The same that is the mighty God is a child born; the ancient of days becomes an infant of a span long; the everlasting Father is a Son given. Such was his condescension in taking our nature upon him; thus did he humble and empty himself, to exalt and fill us. He is born into our world. The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us. He is given, freely given, to be all that to us which our case, in our fallen state, calls for. God so loved the world that he gave him. He is born to us, he is given to us, us men, and not to the angels that sinned. It is spoken with an air of triumph, and the angel seems to refer to these words in the notice he gives to the shepherds of the Messiah's having come (Luke 2:11), Unto you is born, this day, a Saviour. Note, Christ's being born and given to us is the great foundation of our hopes, and fountain of our joys, in times of greatest grief and fear. 2. See him in his exaltation. This child, this son, this Son of God, this Son of man, that is given to us, is in a capacity to do us a great deal of kindness; for he is invested with the highest honour and power, so that we cannot but be happy if he be our friend. (1.) See the dignity he is advanced to, and the name he has above every name. He shall be called (and therefore we are sure he is and shall be) Wonderful, Counsellor, &c. His people shall know him and worship him by these names; and, as one that fully answers them, they shall submit to him and depend upon him. [1.] He is wonderful, counsellor. Justly is he called wonderful, for he is both God and man. His love is the wonder of angels and glorified saints; in his birth, life, death, resurrection, and ascension, he was wonderful. A constant series of wonders attended him, and, without controversy, great was the mystery of godliness concerning him. He is the counsellor, for he was intimately acquainted with the counsels of God from eternity, and he gives counsel to the children of men, in which he consults our welfare. It is by him that God has given us counsel, Ps 16:7; Rev 3:18. He is the wisdom of the Father, and is made of God to us wisdom. Some join these together: He is the wonderful counsellor, a wonder or miracle of a counsellor; in this, as in other things, he has the pre-eminence; none teaches like him. [2.] He is the mighty God—God, the mighty One. As he has wisdom, so he has strength, to go through with his undertaking: he is able to save to the utmost; and such is the work of the Mediator that no less a power than that of the mighty God could accomplish it. [3.] He is the everlasting Father, or the Father of eternity; he is God, one with the Father, who is from everlasting to everlasting. He is the author of everlasting life and happiness to them, and so is the Father of a blessed eternity to them. He is the Father of the world to come (so the LXX. reads it), the father of the gospel-state, which is put in subjection to him, not to the angels, Heb 2:5. He was, from eternity, Father of the great work of redemption: his heart was upon it; it was the product of his wisdom as the counsellor, of his love as the everlasting Father. [4.] He is the prince of peace. As a King, he preserves the peace, commands peace, nay, he creates peace, in his kingdom. He is our peace, and it is his peace that both keeps the hearts of his people and rules in them. He is not only a peaceable prince, and his reign peaceable, but he is the author and giver of all good, all that peace which is the present and future bliss of his subjects. (2.) See the dominion he is advanced to, and the throne he has above every throne (v. 6): The government shall be upon his shoulder—his only. He shall not only wear the badge of it upon his shoulder (the key of the house of David, ch. 22:22), but he shall bear the burden of it. The Father shall devolve it upon him, so that he shall have an incontestable right to govern; and he shall undertake it, so that no doubt can be made of his governing well, for he shall set his shoulder to it, and will never complain, as Moses did, of his being overcharged. I am not able to bear all this people, Num 11:11,14. Glorious things are here spoken of Christ's government, v. 7. [1.] That it shall be an increasing government. It shall be multiplied; the bounds of his kingdom shall be more and more enlarged, and many shall be added to it daily. The lustre of it shall increase, and it shall shine more and more brightly in the world. The monarchies of the earth were each less illustrious than the other, so that what began in gold ended in iron and clay, and every monarchy dwindled by degrees; but the kingdom of Christ is a growing kingdom, and will come to perfection at last. [2.] That it shall be a peaceable government, agreeable to his character as the prince of peace. He shall rule by love, shall rule in men's hearts; so that wherever his government is there shall be peace, and as his government increases the peace shall increase. The more we are subject to Christ the more easy and safe we are. [3.] That it shall be a rightful government. He that is the Son of David shall reign upon the throne of David and over his kingdom, which he is entitled to. God shall give him the throne of his father David, Luke 1:32,33. The gospel church, in which Jew and Gentile are incorporated, is the holy hill of Zion, on which Christ reigns, Ps 2:6. [4.] That it shall be administered with prudence and equity, and so as to answer the great end of government, which is the establishment of the kingdom: He shall order it, and settle it, with justice and judgment. Every thing is, and shall be, well managed, in the kingdom of Christ, and none of his subjects shall ever have cause to complain. [5.] That it shall be an everlasting kingdom: There shall be no end of the increase of his government (it shall be still growing), no end of the increase of the peace of it, for the happiness of the subjects of this kingdom shall last to eternity and perhaps shall be progressive in infinitum—for ever. He shall re ign henceforth even for ever; not only throughout all generations of time, but, even when the kingdom shall be delivered up to God even the Father, the glory both of the Redeemer and the redeemed shall continue eternally. [6.] That God himself has undertaken to bring all this about: “The Lord of hosts, who has all power in his hand and all creatures at his beck, shall perform this, shall preserve the throne of David till this prince of peace is settled in it; his zeal shall do it, his jealousy for his own honour, and the truth of his promise, and the good of his church.” Note, The heart of God is much upon the advancement of the kingdom of Christ among men, which is very comfortable to all those that wish well to it; the zeal of the Lord of hosts will overcome all opposition. (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible, PC Study Bible Formatted Electronic Database Copyright © 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All Rights reserved.) So, Bo, there are similarities between Hezekiah and Christ but I believe that the passage is truer for Christ since His kingdom is truly eternal and Hezekiah’s was not. Thanks for your time, Kathi

What about the translation rendering of Hezekiah as “Mighty God”? Obviously, that is in alignment with that Prophecy and how God granted his Kingdom Peace for his entire rein?

Remember Jesus is inheriting the Throne of David which is eternal reign and it was so even when Hezekiah was King The problem of an ending Kingdom was to David so Hezekiah and Jesus are part of that promise.

Most prophecies are not beyond the life of the prophet and if they are there not usually that far off because if they were most people would never witness if a Prophet was a genuine Prophet or not.

Jesus prophesying that they would try to kill ham and he would be betrayed all happened in his life them being unable to extinguish his life was also Prophesied by him in this lifetime but Jesus was not even privy to some of the events going on because God purposely had blinded Jesus so he could accomplish His will.

God said:

Isaiah 42:18-20 (King James Version)

18 Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see.

19 Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD's servant?

Now I use this verse to show that God can make blind his servant so that he can purpose them to do His will without flaw. Therefor that servant remains innocent despite what he says or what he does. For instance if Jesus says that “some here will not taste death before his return”(paraphrased) and it doesn't happen the reader should understand that Jesus had said previously that “He doesn't know the hour of his return”

In regards to those scriptures we discussed you must keep in mind Jesus is never called the prince of Peace and Jesus admits he didn't come to bring peace, but a sword and even in his return he is said to rule with an Iron hand(Paraphrased)

What's amazing is the more you look into these things the more you start seeing God in a completely more compelling way because suddenly you know about these characters that you never paid attention to, but doing so Glorifies God and truly seeing His hand through time.

[Lightenup]

Hi Bo,
Jesus gives peace, it is not peace in the world but peace “in” Him.
John 16:33
33 “These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.”
NASU

Also, regarding the prophets seeing their prophecies, that is not always the case…read Daniel. Daniel was long gone and some of his prophecies are still unfulfilled.

Hezekiah means strengthened of God from what I have read. His name is derived from might and God though.

OT:2396

OT:2396 hY*q!z=j!
Chizqiyah (khiz-kee-yaw'); or Chizqiyahuw (khiz-kee-yaw'-hoo); also Yechizqiyah (yekh-iz-kee-yaw'); or Yechizqiyahuw (yekh-iz-kee-yaw'-hoo); from OT:2388 and OT:3050; strengthened of Jah; Chizkijah, a king of Judah, also the name of two other Israelites:

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Is Hezekiah reigning now…show me where it says that. Jesus reigns!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi All

Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 01 2009,13:10)

Jesus prophesying that they would try to kill ham and he would be betrayed all happened in his life them being unable to extinguish his life was also Prophesied by him in this lifetime but Jesus was not even privy to some of the events going on because God purposely had blinded Jesus so he could accomplish His will.

This is a pure lie against the scriptures and is from the pit of hell itself.

Bds statement that Jesus was blinded by the Father contradicts Jesus own words when he says…

And he that sent me is with me: “the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him“. John 8:29

If Jesus was prophesying falsly thens he was a false prophet according to the scritpures.

Jesus said…

“All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and [he] to whom the Son will reveal [him]. Luke 10:22

The Father loveth the Son, and “hath given all things into his hand“. John 3:35

Jesus had all things in his hands therfore he could not have been blinded by the Father!

For the Father loveth the Son, and “sheweth him all things that himself doeth“: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. John 5:20

The Father showed Jesus all things that he was doing, and Jesus did likewise!

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: “for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise“. John 5:19

Jesus knowing that “the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God“; John 13:3

Jesus knew where he came from and knew where he was going back to, for the Father had shown him all things concerning his life, and he was not in the dark!

Satan is a liar and the Father of it.

WJ

[bodhitharta]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 02 2009,05:55)

Hi All Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 01 2009,13:10) Jesus prophesying that they would try to kill ham and he would be betrayed all happened in his life them being unable to extinguish his life was also Prophesied by him in this lifetime but Jesus was not even privy to some of the events going on because God purposely had blinded Jesus so he could accomplish His will. This is a pure lie against the scriptures and is from the pit of hell itself. Bds statement that Jesus was blinded by the Father contradicts Jesus own words when he says… And he that sent me is with me: “the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him“. John 8:29 If Jesus was prophesying falsly thens he was a false prophet according to the scritpures. Jesus said… “All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and [he] to whom the Son will reveal [him]. Luke 10:22 The Father loveth the Son, and “hath given all things into his hand“. John 3:35 Jesus had all things in his hands therfore he could not have been blinded by the Father! For the Father loveth the Son, and “sheweth him all things that himself doeth“: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. John 5:20 The Father showed Jesus all things that he was doing, and Jesus did likewise! Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: “for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise“. John 5:19 Jesus knowing that “the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God“; John 13:3 Jesus knew where he came from and knew where he was going back to, for the Father had shown him all things concerning his life, and he was not in the dark! Satan is a liar and the Father of it. WJ

Then why is it Jesus said no one know “the hour” including him?

Did Jesus know “the Hour” Yes or no?

Did Jesus purposely select Judas to betray him or was it revealed to him as it was happening?

Did Jesus really want “to have that cup taken from him” He asked 3 times why would he ask 3 times if it was CLEAR to him?

The problem you have is if you admit that Jesus didn't know everything that was going to occur you will have to dump the idea of a trinity. But, that's good because you believe Satan to be Sovereign and One Being but God needs to be Three Beings, now isn't that funny that you make Satan more Powerful than God.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 02 2009,05:53)

Hi Bo, Jesus gives peace, it is not peace in the world but peace “in” Him. John 16:33 33 “These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.” NASU Also, regarding the prophets seeing their prophecies, that is not always the case…read Daniel.  Daniel was long gone and some of his prophecies are still unfulfilled. Hezekiah means strengthened of God from what I have read.  His name is derived from might and God though. OT:2396 OT:2396 hY*q!z=j! Chizqiyah (khiz-kee-yaw'); or Chizqiyahuw (khiz-kee-yaw'-hoo); also Yechizqiyah (yekh-iz-kee-yaw'); or Yechizqiyahuw (yekh-iz-kee-yaw'-hoo); from OT:2388 and OT:3050; strengthened of Jah; Chizkijah, a king of Judah, also the name of two other Israelites: (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.) Is Hezekiah reigning now…show me where it says that.  Jesus reigns!

It's not hezekiah that will rein forever but his Kingdom which is that which is the Kingdom of David. The Kingdom of David was promised to be an unending kingdom:

1 Kings 2:44-46 (King James Version)

45 And king Solomon shall be blessed, and the throne of David shall be established before the LORD for ever.

Whoever is on the throne of David is the fulfillment of God's promise to David. Hezekiah was established on the Throne of David this throne is established forever as it was when Solomon was on the Throne.

1 Kings 9:4-6 (King James Version)

4And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments:

5Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.

but each time they turn away they will lose the the Kingdom

6 But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them:

7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:

but the Kingdom and the throne is always established in whoever sits on the throne of David.

Jeremiah 13:12-14 (King James Version)

13Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.

No matter who the King is it is always the throne of David that is why those who believe in the trinity should understand that Jesus is established on the Throne of David it is the ultimate throne of a man and not the throne of God.

Jeremiah 29:15-17 (King James Version)

16Know that thus saith the LORD of the king that sitteth upon the throne of David, and of all the people that dwelleth in this city, and of your brethren that are not gone forth with you into captivity;

We see from this verse that The Lord God is the lord of the king that sits upon the throne of David so it is obvious that That the lord of the throne of David is not equal to his Lord.

Jeremiah 33:20-22 (King James Version)

20Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;

21Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.

22As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.

This is why we shall be Co-heirs with Jesus and all saints

Luke 1:31-33 (King James Version)

31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

and there you have it Jesus receiving the united tribes of Israelor The Throne of David or the House of Jacob which is all of ISRAEL

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