What does it mean that Jesus came in the flesh?

[mikeboll64]

kerwin wrote:

Mike,

I know because trinitarism is not a Jewish belief while what I wrote is. John was not part of making a new religion, that cam later.

Kerwin, I asked you if “the Word” in Rev 19 is “the preexistent Law”. What is your answer?

[mikeboll64]

Wakeup wrote:

Mike B.

Jesus the man; was made like unto his brethren, he was made flesh; means creature.
But He was not a creature before He was made flesh.
He was next to God; and humbled himself to be made unto a creature.

Wakeup, you and t8 are adding your own thoughts into the scriptures. The SCRIPTURAL teaching is that Jesus was “made FLESH”……. not that he was “made a CREATURE”.

The spirit sons of God are not flesh, yet they are still CREATURES. Jesus is the firstborn of all those spirit sons of God. Those spirit sons are the first of God’s CREATIVE works – and Jesus was the first of them. Those spirit sons are the beginning of the CREATION by God – and Jesus is the first one of them to have been created.

You and t8 err in that you seem to be equating “flesh” with “creature”. But God has clearly created CREATURES who are not flesh.

[mikeboll64]

kerwin wrote:

You use Word as if it is a name Jesus is called by but he was not called by it in Scripture except one place in Revelation……..

Correction: The only time that I, Kerwin, believe Jesus is called “the Word” is in Revelation.

Jesus is also called by that same title/name in John 1:1, 1:14, and 1 John 1:1. (There may be others as well, like 2 Peter 3:5, Hebrews 11:3, etc.)

Besides, you seem to refute yourself, Kerwin. You scold Wakeup for using “Word” as if it is a name for Jesus – but then admit that Jesus IS called by that name in one scripture. How many places must it be in scripture in order for it to be the truth? In order for you to believe it?

[Wakeup]

Mikeb.

You have no scriptural evidence to back up your claim.
the Wprd of God is not a creature; He created all things that was made.
WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT *ANYTHING* MADE THAT WAS MADE. ANITHING MADE THAT WAS MADE ANYTHING ANYTHING.
But you say: not so; except the first creature was not made by him; but by God.You are making up things.
What does anything mean? To all of us it means anything. To you it means not anything.

wakeup.

[mikeboll64]

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

John 3:13
No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven – the Son of Man.

How many scriptures does it take before Kerwin believes the truth?

[mikeboll64]

Wakeup,

Read 1 Corinthians 15:27……… ONCE AGAIN. It says God placed EVERYTHING under Jesus’ feet. But does it mean LITERALLY EVERYTHING? YES or NO? (Hint: Paul gives us the answer in that very verse.)

Now, please tell me the SCRIPTURAL teaching:
1. The Word became FLESH when he came down from heaven?
2. The Word became a CREATURE when he came down from heaven?
Which one is the SCRIPTRURAL teaching?

And finally, do you acknowledge that angels are NOT flesh, yet they ARE creatures? And do you therefore acknowledge that “flesh” does not EQUAL “creature”?

See, these are the things I told you in my last post. But you never actually ADDRESS any of the points I bring up – points that prove the last thing you said to be WRONG. Why is that, Wakeup? Why, when I PROVE YOU WRONG, do you just ignore that PROOF, and start saying the same old flawed arguments all over again?

Hmmmmmm……………..

[Wakeup]

There was not a time that God can not speak, because He is wordless.

God’s Word was simply changed from one place to another place.From one shape to another shape.

God did not create His Word; He was in Him from everlasting.

wakeup.

[Proclaimer]

@mikeboll64
I will answer your questions, one per post.

[Proclaimer]

@mikeboll64

Genesis 4:1
Now the man had marital relations with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. Then she said, “I have created a man with the help of the LORD!”

To be fair, I could only see one translation with the word ‘create’ and you probably already knew that. This list was a straight copy and paste from Bible Hub with emphasis from me.

http://biblehub.com/genesis/4-1.htm

New International Version

Adam made love to his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, “With the help of the LORD I have brought forth a man.”

New Living Translation
Now Adam had sexual relations with his wife, Eve, and she became pregnant. When she gave birth to Cain, she said, “With the LORD’s help, I have produced a man!”

English Standard Version
Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, “I have gotten a man with the help of the LORD.”

New American Standard Bible 
Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, “I have gotten a manchild with the help of the LORD.”

King James Bible
And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Adam was intimate with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain. She said, “I have had a male child with the LORD’s help.”

International Standard Version
Later, Adam had sexual relations with his wife Eve. She became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, “I have given birth to a male child—the LORD.”

NET Bible
Now the man had marital relations with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. Then she said, “I have created a man just as the LORD did!”

GOD’S WORD® Translation
Adam made love to his wife Eve. She became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, “I have gotten the man that the LORD promised.”

Jubilee Bible 2000
And the man knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain and said, I have gained a man by the LORD.

King James 2000 Bible
And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bore Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

American King James Version
And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bore Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

American Standard Version
And the man knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man with the help of Jehovah.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And Adam knew Eve his wife: who conceived and brought forth Cain, saying: I have gotten a man through God. 

Darby Bible Translation
And Man knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bore Cain, and said, I have acquired a man with Jehovah.

English Revised Version
And the man knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man with the help of the LORD.

Webster’s Bible Translation
And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bore Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

World English Bible
The man knew Eve his wife. She conceived, and gave birth to Cain, and said, “I have gotten a man with Yahweh’s help.”

Young’s Literal Translation
And the man knew Eve his wife, and she conceiveth and beareth Cain, and saith, ‘I have gotten a man by Jehovah;’

However, even if all the translations said “create” then it does also say that she had help from YHWH, so obviously her part was to begat that which YHWH created. In other words it is another case of God creating through…

[Wakeup]

Mike b.

Sit down on my right hand UNTILL I put your enemies under your feet.

All will be under Jesus feet. This is near future. In the thousand years.

1. He came down from heaven, and was made flesh by His birth. And was given a name.

   He had no name before made flesh. The HS has no name. God has a name.(many names).

2.All flesh are creatures,all created are creatures.

God is not a creature and so is His own Word.

[Proclaimer]

There really is no difference. Anyone or anything in the history of existence that was “born”, “begotten”, or “given birth” is a CREATION. God CREATED mountains, yet it is said that mountains were “born” in a few scriptures. God CREATED the earth, yet it is said to have been “given birth”.

That is like saying that the rain makes the ground wet and then further concluding that whenever the ground is wet, it was raining.

So if all men are created by God, then we’re all men begotten of God? And if so, then all have been born of God and are his.

So while being born of God doesn’t nullify our created status, being created by God doesn’t make us all born of God.

And if there was no difference between the word ‘created’ and ‘born’, then why do we have these two different words to begin with.

Further, why is it we see genealogies that say “And Judah begat Perez and Zerah of Tamar; and Perez begat Hezron and Hezron begat Ram …” instead of “And Judah created Perez and Zerah of Tamar; and Perez created Hezron and Hezron created Ram …

And sure sometimes we see crossover usages in scripture. We see that with soul and spirit sometimes. But that doesn’t mean that there is no difference between soul and spirit because we are specifically told that man has a spirit, soul, and a body.

Let’s face it, if there was no difference between begotten and created, then Mary created Jesus and Jesus is NOT the only begotten of son of God and consequently we truly undermine scripture by nullifying such truths.

[Proclaimer]

And if there was no difference between create and begat/born, then we might as well throw away this scripture because it implies that Jesus was not created if he is the Word of God that was with God in the beginning:

He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Thus if Jesus was created in the beginning, then he must have come through the Word, which is himself according to your understanding of the Word. So you are undermining your own position and those that oppose you on who the Word is only need to quote this scripture to point out a discrepancy in your theology.

[Proclaimer]

John 1
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

T8, when the above happens, and certain ones are “born of God”, will those ones still be a CREATION of God – even though they were “born/begotten” by God? YES or NO, please.

That is an interesting question. Yes we are born of God as the scripture says. But we know that this is not true for all men, yet if created meant begotten, then all men are born of God. So my very point is in that scripture.

But do we lose the created tag when we are born from above? I don’t know. When we shed the created body we received from our mother and receive the spiritual body that comes from God, then what part of us is not directly born of God and what part remains created as in coming through something. I am not sure we have enough in scripture to know the full answer here.

[Proclaimer]

Finally if there was no difference between ‘created’ and ‘born’ then Jesus as the only begotten means he is the only one created. But I am pretty sure I was created and many others too.

[mikeboll64]

t8 wrote:

To be fair, I could only see one translation with the word ‘create’ and you probably already knew that. This list was a straight copy and paste from Bible Hub with emphasis from me.

Okay, now quote that same list from the same source, but do it for Genesis 14:19. You’ll see a lot more “Creators” in that list. And you’ll also see the older translations using “possessor of heaven and earth”. Why? Because…… well, I’ll just let NETNotes explain it to you:

There are two roots קָנָה (qanah) in Hebrew, one meaning “to possess,” and the other meaning “to create.”

The earlier English versions did not know of the second root, but suspected in certain places that a meaning like that was necessary (e.g., Gen 4:1; 14:19; Deut 32:6). Ugaritic confirmed that it was indeed another root.

The older versions have the translation “possess” because otherwise it sounds like God lacked wisdom and therefore created it at the beginning. They wanted to avoid saying that wisdom was not eternal.

So you’ll see a switch from “aquire/possess/gotten” to “made/brought forth/created” as you move from the older translations, which suspected, but did not know, about the second root of the word that means “create”.

So when you read “brought forth”, “produced”, and “given birth” in those newer versions of Gen 4:1, you are essentially reading “CREATED”.

The following is a list of synonyms of “CREATE” – from Dictionary.com:

design
devise
discover
establish
forge
form
found
generate
initiate
invent
make
organize
plan
produce
set up
shape
spawn
start
actualize
author
beget
coin
compose
concoct
contrive
effect
erect
fabricate
fashion
father
formulate
hatch
imagine
institute
invest
occasion
originate
parent
perform
procreate
rear
sire
bring into being
bring into existence
bring to pass
cause to be
dream up
give birth to
give life to

Are we nearer to clearer yet?

[mikeboll64]

t8 wrote:

So if all men are created by God, then we’re all men begotten of God?

You’ve got it backwards. All thumbs are fingers, but not all fingers are thumbs. So yes, all those who were begotten are CREATIONS, but not all creations were begotten.

t8 wrote:

So while being born of God doesn’t nullify our created status………..

You’ve just answered the entire thing. Being “begotten” by God later on will not change the fact that we are still CREATIONS of God. If one is “begotten by God”, that one is a CREATION of God.

Re-read the list of synonyms, t8. Among them are: “form”, “make”, “beget”, “father”, “bring into being”, “bring into existence”, “cause to be”, and “give life to”. Which one of those did God NOT do for The Word?

[mikeboll64]

t8 wrote:

And if there was no difference between create and begat/born, then we might as well throw away this scripture because it implies that Jesus was not created if he is the Word of God that was with God in the beginning:

He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Thus if Jesus was created in the beginning, then he must have come through the Word, which is himself according to your understanding of the Word. So you are undermining your own position and those that oppose you on who the Word is only need to quote this scripture to point out a discrepancy in your theology.

I have addressed this one 100 times for Wakeup. Maybe you’ll get it.

t8, there are many scriptures that say God created the heavens, the earth, and EVERYTHING in them. But did God create HIMSELF? Because He is one of the things in heaven, right? So it is OBVIOUS that God created all those things in heaven EXCEPT FOR HIMSELF, right? Not one thing in heaven, EXCEPT FOR HIMSELF, came into being without God, right?

I will even give you a scriptural precedent:

1 Corinthians 15:27
For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

The EVERYTHING does NOT include God Himself, right? So then, “everything” includes all OTHER things, right?

Now, use that same common sense reasoning in John 1:3, Col 1:16, and 1 Cor 8:6. Take that last one, for example: If ALL THINGS came from God, and through Jesus, it means God and Jesus both came FROM God, and God and Jesus both came THROUGH Jesus. But we know that it means “all things EXCEPT FOR THE TWO WE ARE TALKING ABOUT”, right? So all things, EXCEPT for God, came FROM God. And all things, EXCEPT for Jesus, came THROUGH Jesus, right?

Go apply that to John 1:3. You’ll see that all things, EXCEPT FOR THE WORD, came THROUGH the Word.

So yes, God created Jesus as the first of His works (Proverbs 8:22-25…. using the correct “CREATE” meaning of the Hebrew word “qanah” – as explained by the NETNotes two posts ago), and then God created everything ELSE through that firstborn creation.

[mikeboll64]

t8 wrote:

Finally if there was no difference between ‘created’ and ‘born’ then Jesus as the only begotten means he is the only one created. But I am pretty sure I was created and many others too.

1 John 5:1
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.

According to 1 John 3, 4, and 5, some of us are “fathered/begotten/born” of God right now. Yet Jesus is STILL the “only begotten”.

Perhaps for this one, you need to see Hebrews 11:17, where Isaac is called the “only begotten” of Abraham, though we know that Isaac wasn’t Abraham’s only son.

Also remember that all who are created aren’t necessarily “begotten”. But all who are begotten ARE creations. So even if you were to insist that Jesus was literally God’s ONLY begotten, it doesn’t change the fact that anyone who is brought forth into existence by another is a CREATION of that other. And that stands, whether you call it “begotten”, “brought forth”, “fathered”, “produced”, “made”, “formed”, “born”, or anything else.

[Ed J]

Hi Mike,

You say that because you believe it is Jesus the writer is speaking of, therefore he is excluded contextually from everything.
But you are also excluding God in the same instance that you are excluding Jesus, do you have a precedence that excludes
someone else besides the one being spoken of? …because that is what you will need – for your theory to have ANY merit.

*PLUS* you will ALSO need to prove that “The Word” referrers to who you claim, which you have NOT been able to do

___________
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[kerwin]

Wakeup,

It is symbolic as believers do not literally eat Jesus’ flesh and drink his blood.

The bible is nothing without the instructions of the Spirit as no one can come to Jesus unless drawn by God and no one can go to God unless through the Son.  Many try to go through the wide gate but that does not lead to the reign of God.

[Author]

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