What does it mean that Jesus came in the flesh?

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (terraricca @ June 04 2014,06:16)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 03 2014,20:57) To all……..Jesus was and is still Flesh and Bone, he will return that same way he left, with that same body, that did not see corruption, in the grave, he will drink wine with the disciples in the kingdom he sets up with the Saints of the Most High God. Peace and love to you all……………..gene gene all men are fools so do not open your mouth and prove it with what you say

Terricca……..You say all men are fools , please post scripture that proves what you are saying, and by he way does your own words also include you?

What spirit is driving you that you attack people personally? It certainly is not the spirit of the Living God. IMO

Peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 04 2014,06:34)

Quote (terraricca @ June 04 2014,06:16) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 03 2014,20:57) To all……..Jesus was and is still Flesh and Bone, he will return that same way he left, with that same body, that did not see corruption, in the grave, he will drink wine with the disciples in the kingdom he sets up with the Saints of the Most High God. Peace and love to you all……………..gene gene all men are fools so do not open your mouth and prove it with what you say Terricca……..You say all men are fools , please post scripture that proves what you are saying, and by he way does your own words also include you? What spirit is driving you that you attack people personally? It certainly is not the spirit of the Living God. IMO Peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene

gene

yes it includes me we all are sinners

[Proclaimer]

Agreed.

[Ed J]

+1

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (terraricca @ June 04 2014,10:19)

Mike this is what Paul says about Enoch,Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. if God did not take his life then why would God do this ;;For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

Terricca………You have a good point brother, I also believe Enoch just did not “experience” death, as most do, because God took him instantly.

Peace and love to you and yours………………..gene

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 04 2014,04:13)

Quote (terraricca @ June 03 2014,15:14) Quote (kerwin @ June 04 2014,00:44) T, I disagree with you as Scripture never said Enoch died. In fact it says he never saw death. K and what it mean “HE WAS NO MORE” It means he was no longer on earth as a human being.  God took him to heaven, like He did with Elijah.

T,

Mike is somewhat right. All it means is the person will not die. It is either speaking of the first or last death when used in Scripture. At no time in the several times it is used in Scripture does it mean “HE WAS NO MORE”.

[terraricca]

ok,all

first let me tell you that i do believe that we die WITH OUR SOUL, only in the flesh ;meaning that the soul ;our soul goes to a place that God as design for each of us to go ,what will separate us is what we have done ,the favored one of God will be close to him all the others will be some other place ,

as for all who die in God's favor will go when they die in the flesh to that favorable place ,and that is where God took Enoch ,but his live on earth was terminated by God just as Christ live was terminated by God's will,and so are all the true prophets and apostles ,and the true disciples of the faith in the true God ,

Paul says that all the human race is waiting that this world pass away and the new comes ,God as sins the beginning establish the resurrection of all as per our own deeds ,so all of us have to die (sins of Adam) and no one as ever gone to heaven unless it was the place where souls are gathered ,and wait for the resurrection (first or second)

Enoch /Moses/Eli all died in the flesh so do we ,but if they die the way they did what difference does it make ,the resurrection remain the same for all ,THE FIRST TO BE RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD IS Jesus Christ  ,

THE SON OF GOD ,

if you believe that God commit a murder for taking Enoch life ;think again and look at the world that have died sins Adam ,and see the different ways that one can die ;but you have to understand that this life is not the one a true believer wants it is the promised one that we are looking for ,if we lose this one when we young or old or in between ,does this matters NO,the resurrection would be the same right Yes

all true believers have already died when they have accepted Christ baptism ,the flesh is dead but not yet in dust ;

when scriptures says “he is no more ” it means that he is no longer found on earth as a human ,meaning he is dead ,NO ONE GOES TO HEAVEN UNLESS HE WAS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD ,

ALL ARE WAITING THE RETURN OF CHRIST ;AND SO THE RESURRECTION AND EACH THEIR OWN TURN ,FIRST THE ONES IN CHRIST THEN THE OTHERS AND SO ON.

THOSE SCRIPTURES CANNOT BE DENIED ,

SO I DO NOT AGREE WITH YOU ALL GUYS (EXCEPT GENE b)

[kerwin]

T,

Soul's are only destroyed in Gehenna.

[kerwin]

T,

Enoch did not die. Just because you misunderstand Scripture doers not change that. Since he did not die he could not have been murdered by God.

Mike is attempting to make the point that God “rewards those who seek him” and does not punish them by giving them a shorter life span in this world.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ June 15 2014,07:02)

T, Soul's are only destroyed in Gehenna.

k

the souls are destroyed including the new resurrected and given flesh body ,after being found useless and rebel toward God,

[kerwin]

T,

Matthew 10:28
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

28 `And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.

[GeneBalthrop]

Kerwin……..look up the word used for Soul there, it should be render Spirit. A living soul is complete being, not part of a person as many assume.

peace and love to you and yours…………..gene

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ June 15 2014,10:34)

T, Matthew 10:28 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 28 `And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.

K

22 But I say to you that if you are angry with a brother or sister, you will be liable to judgment; and if you insult a brother or sister, you will be liable to the council; and if you say, 'You fool,' you will be liable to the hell of fire. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to go into hell.
28 Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 9 And if your eye causes you to stumble, tear it out and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and to be thrown into the hell of fire.
15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cross sea and land to make a single convert, and you make the new convert twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.
33 You snakes, you brood of vipers! How can you escape being sentenced to hell? 43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed than to have two hands and to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. 45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame than to have two feet and to be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, tear it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and to be thrown into hell, 5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!

HELL = GEHENNA

but see how their is a separation between the flesh and the soul,

Lk 12:4 “I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more.
Lk 12:5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

Mt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

two things are living in a being ;1 ) the body 2) the soul   AND ONLY GOD CAN DESTROY THEM BOTH OR SAVE THEM BOTH ;OR RESTORE THEM BOTH

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 14 2014,08:20)

Terricca………You have a good point brother, I also believe Enoch just did not “experience” death, as most do, because God took him instantly.

Took him where, Gene?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ June 14 2014,17:44)

ok,all first let me tell you that i do believe that we die WITH OUR SOUL, only in the flesh ;meaning that the soul ;our soul goes to a place that God as design for each of us to go ,what will separate us is what we have done ,the favored one of God will be close to him all the others will be some other place ,

This point confuses me, because Solomon said the dead are conscious of nothing at all.  David and others taught that the dead can no longer worship God or praise Him. (Psalm 6:5, 88:10, etc.)

But then Jesus gave the parable about Abraham and Lazarus – which seems to go against those two former teachings.  According to Jesus' parable, the souls of the dead ARE conscious, and some of them await the resurrection in relative comfort, while others suffer.

Then we have the story of Samuel being awakened by Saul.  In that teaching, Samuel was “asleep” in Sheol, and was angry that Saul had “awakened” him.

I don't know the answer – because the scriptures SEEM to be in conflict on this point.  I do know that the scriptures SEEMED to me to be in conflict on other points – but further examination and learning showed me that the “conflict” was only my own misunderstanding.

I will remain undecided on this point for now – and pray for further knowledge or revelation from God.

Quote (terraricca @ June 14 2014,17:44)

as for all who die in God's favor will go when they die in the flesh to that favorable place ,and that is where God took Enoch……

This is where we disagree, Pierre.  Because you assume Enoch actually DIED – a thing that is never said in any scripture.

Those who DIE will be resurrected……… but not all DIE.  As Paul taught, some will not die, but will be CHANGED in the twinkling of an eye.  Couldn't this be what happened to Enoch and Elijah?

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 15 2014,21:46)

Quote (terraricca @ June 14 2014,17:44) ok,all first let me tell you that i do believe that we die WITH OUR SOUL, only in the flesh ;meaning that the soul ;our soul goes to a place that God as design for each of us to go ,what will separate us is what we have done ,the favored one of God will be close to him all the others will be some other place , This point confuses me, because Solomon said the dead are conscious of nothing at all.  David and others taught that the dead can no longer worship God or praise Him.  (Psalm 6:5, 88:10, etc.) But then Jesus gave the parable about Abraham and Lazarus – which seems to go against those two former teachings.  According to Jesus' parable, the souls of the dead ARE conscious, and some of them await the resurrection in relative comfort, while others suffer. Then we have the story of Samuel being awakened by Saul.  In that teaching, Samuel was “asleep” in Sheol, and was angry that Saul had “awakened” him. I don't know the answer – because the scriptures SEEM to be in conflict on this point.  I do know that the scriptures SEEMED to me to be in conflict on other points – but further examination and learning showed me that the “conflict” was only my own misunderstanding. I will remain undecided on this point for now – and pray for further knowledge or revelation from God. Quote (terraricca @ June 14 2014,17:44) as for all who die in God's favor will go when they die in the flesh to that favorable place ,and that is where God took Enoch…… This is where we disagree, Pierre.  Because you assume Enoch actually DIED – a thing that is never said in any scripture. Those who DIE will be resurrected……… but not all DIE.  As Paul taught, some will not die, but will be CHANGED in the twinkling of an eye.  Couldn't this be what happened to Enoch and Elijah?

mIKE

Quote

Quote (terraricca @ June 14 2014,17:44) ok,all first let me tell you that i do believe that we die WITH OUR SOUL, only in the flesh ;meaning that the soul ;our soul goes to a place that God as design for each of us to go ,what will separate us is what we have done ,the favored one of God will be close to him all the others will be some other place ,

WHAT I AM SAYING IS THAT THE FLESH DIES BUT NOT OUR SOUL ;WHAT IS US ,

[mikeboll64]

I agree that the flesh dies, but not our soul.

But no scripture says Enoch died at all. Or Elijah.

To be taken by God is a very different thing than to die.

Enoch and Elijah are no longer flesh beings, but their flesh didn't “die”. I assume it was “transformed” during their ascension to heaven, much like Jesus' resurrected flesh body was also transformed during his ascension to heaven.

[terraricca]

MIKE

Quote

This point confuses me, because Solomon said the dead are conscious of nothing at all. David and others taught that the dead can no longer worship God or praise Him. (Psalm 6:5, 88:10, etc.)

all those scriptures are supporting what i say;on the earth when flesh dies ;everything that as to do with being of the earth as died ,but the soul goes to God (a place) but sins the body as gone it cannot do anything nor change anything ,without a body ,; consciousness belongs to a living being (flesh + soul) we separate those two no more consciousness ;same goes for worshiping or given praise ;no body no action ;the soul on is own is rendered dead stopped not dead on the other end the body is under the curse of Adam ,all must die but it is the grace of God that will give our soul a body to live again

Quote

But then Jesus gave the parable about Abraham and Lazarus

this to me and my understanding does not make a story of reality as it is an image ,but we know from the story that those who died are very two different people ; and that they are ,their soul is resting in two different places ,and in this demonstration it is pictured Abraham ,for it is addressed to Jews ,but today instead of Abraham I can see Jesus Christ .

Quote

This is where we disagree, Pierre. Because you assume Enoch actually DIED – a thing that is never said in any scripture.

I have explain you why i believe he died ,the context ;HEB 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP;

for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

WHY WAS IT NECESSARY FOR GOD TO GIVE THAT “WITNESSING ” THAT HE WAS PLEASING GOD ;IF HE WOULD STAY ALIVE MEANING BODY AND SOUL ; AND THIS IF IT WOULD BE SO THEN PAUL LIED WHEN HE SAYS THAT CHRIST IS THE FIRST RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD ,

NOW PAUL'S ARGUMENT ;

1Co 15:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

1Co 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

1Co 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

1Co 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;

1Co 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
1Co 15:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1Co 15:53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
1Co 15:54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory

LOOK AT THE VERSE 54 ;WHAT DO YOU THINK IT MEANS “HAS TO BE CLOTHED WITH IMPERISHABLE AND THE MORTAL WITH THE IMMORTALITY ” WHERE DO YOU THINK THIS PROCESS TAKE PLACE

UNDERSTAND THAT PAUL IS TALKING ABOUT THE RESURRECTION BUT STARTED WITH THE SINFUL MAN ,

NOW IF WE ADDING ;

1Co 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
1Co 15:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

DO PAUL TALK ABOUT THE BELIEVERS OR ALL MEN ONLY BELIEVERS

WHEN WILL BE THE LAST TRUMPET SOUND BE GIVEN

DOES PAUL TALKS ABOUT ALL THOSE THAT HAVE AN HEAVENLY CALL OR ALL WHO ARE CALLED I BELIEVE IT IS ONLY FOR THE HEAVENLY CALLED ;

Phil 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
Phil 3:15 All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.
Phil 3:16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

I HAVE NO DOUBTS IN MY MIND THAT ALL THE FAITHFUL ONE OF ALL TIMES WILL BE IN HEAVEN ,AND SO ARE PART OF THE 144K THE HEAVENLY JERUSALEM .THE CITY OF GOD ,THAT DESCEND ON EARTH TO BE WITH MEN

SO I DO NOT SEE ANY WRONG IN MY BELIEVE AND SCRIPTURES ;BUT IF YOU CAN SHOW ME I AM WILLING TO LISTEN ;

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 15 2014,23:37)

I agree that the flesh dies, but not our soul. But no scripture says Enoch died at all.  Or Elijah. To be taken by God is a very different thing than to die. Enoch and Elijah are no longer flesh beings, but their flesh didn't “die”.  I assume it was “transformed” during their ascension to heaven, much like Jesus' resurrected flesh body was also transformed during his ascension to heaven.

Mike

you view kills the scripture

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

Enoch and Elijah are not Christ and cannot be the first ,

they WERE NO MORE = DEAD

THEIR SOUL WAITED JUST LIKE OURS THE RETURN OF CHRIST THE FIRST RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD ,TO ETERNAL LIFE ,

NO MEN CAN OR WAS CHANGED BEFORE THE FIRST ONE AND THAT IS JESUS CHRIST ;

SO THEY BOTH HAVE DIED BUT NOT SEE IT COMING LIKE WE DO AND PAUL DID AND SO MANY OTHERS ;

AT MY AGE I NOW CONTEMPLATE DEAD MORE THAN I DID WHEN I WAS 20 AND SO I SEE DEAD SLOWLY COMING TO ME ,BUT I DO NOT FEAR IT BECAUSE OF MY FAITH

[kerwin]

Mike,

Quote

This point confuses me, because Solomon said the dead are conscious of nothing at all.  David and others taught that the dead can no longer worship God or praise Him.  (Psalm 6:5, 88:10, etc.)

It is hard to understand as “dead” can be dead bodies, spiritually dead, those that have died the first death, or those who have died the second death.  Sometimes we can eliminate some of those by the context.

I do not believe it means spiritually dead in Ecclesiastes 9:5, and it does not seem to be speaking of the second death in some ways as it says ” For the living know that they die” but in other ways it does for it says “there is no more to them a reward, for their remembrance hath been forgotten”.  The dead body is possible as is the living soul in hell but the words “there is no more to them a reward, for their remembrance hath been forgotten” do not seem to fit neither”.

I hypothesis this is a better translation than most as it does make the case that Jehovah is not the God of the dead.  That interpretation seem to contradict Jesus' word that Adam was living even as his body laid dead in its burial place but Sheol seems to be used as a specific place in the Netherworld and as a name for the whole Netherworld.  It is like New York, New York.  Jesus uses Hades(Hell by some translations) in a like manner.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Because your memorial is not in death, and in Sheol, who gives you thanks?

This translation makes more sense as it acknowledges the final resurrection.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Behold, you work wonders to the dead and mighty ones will stand and confess you!

[Author]

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