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Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2014,05:37) Hi MB,
The kingdom of heaven is how Matthew refers to it but Mark and Luke say kingdom of God
Some may enter heaven but the home of man is earth.
Nwhat's your point
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2014,17:37) Hi MB,
The kingdom of heaven is how Matthew refers to it but Mark and Luke say kingdom of God
Some may enter heaven but the home of man is earth.
Nick,Listen very carefully this time:
Gene says there is no such thing as a PLACE called the kingdom of God, that people can literally ENTER.
I say he is wrong.
What do YOU say………..only about that one thing?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2014,17:38) hi MB,
He preached to those in prison
1Peter 3
That's the only scripture I could think of. Were those prisoners in “Hades”?Jonah didn't go to Sheol, as far as I remember.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 30 2014,07:38) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2014,17:38) hi MB,
He preached to those in prison
1Peter 3
That's the only scripture I could think of. Were those prisoners in “Hades”?Jonah didn't go to Sheol, as far as I remember.
mikethis could be it
2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
1Pe 3:19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison
1Pe 3:20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 30 2014,12:38) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2014,17:38) hi MB,
He preached to those in prison
1Peter 3
That's the only scripture I could think of. Were those prisoners in “Hades”?Jonah didn't go to Sheol, as far as I remember.
Hi MB,
Jonah
2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.Hi MB,
Is 53,
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2014,10:40) Hi MB,
Is 53,
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
nickit is also said to be the same for his true disciples ,;
Rev 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Rev 14:4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 30 2014,05:01) Quote (kerwin @ May 29 2014,14:14) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 29 2014,04:24) Quote (kerwin @ May 28 2014,13:20) We are told that Jesus body did not see corruption but that his soul descended to Sheol/Hades.
Is that really explicitly said in scripture, Kerwin? Which scripture, please?
Mike,Acts 2:27
New English Translation (NET)27 because you will not leave my soul in Hades,
nor permit your Holy One to experience decay.Or are you speaking about the word “descended”?
I've never understood that to mean Jesus WENT to Hades, but God just didn't LEAVE him there.I understand it to mean Jesus' soul didn't GO TO Hades, like most of the others who die. Ie: My soul won't be abandoned in Hades like everyone else's soul. And my body won't decay like everyone else's body.
Are there any scripture that support one view or the other?
Mike,It the NET version the word leave means Jesus soul was in Hades and God did not let it remain there. Abandon means much the same as leave from what I know.
I sorta see where your coming from but it does not fit with the idea of the soul departing from a person's body as they are dying.
Also Jesus told the thief he would meet him in paradise that day and the Hades has a paradise according to Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
Mike,
Quote
5 And paradise is between corruptibility and incorruptibility.That is an interesting thing to say but that is like saying x is a number between finite and infinity. The answer a mystery I am not even sure has a solution.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 30 2014,05:12) Quote (kerwin @ May 28 2014,11:33) Mike, 2 Enoch
Quote Chapter 8, VIII 1 And those men took me thence, and led me up on to the third heaven, and placed me there; and I looked downwards, and saw the produce of these places, such as has never been known for goodness.
2 And I saw all the sweet-flowering trees and beheld their fruits, which were sweet-smelling, and all the foods borne (by them) bubbling with fragrant exhalation.
3 And in the midst of the trees that of life, in that place whereon the Lord rests, when he goes up into paradise; and this tree is of ineffable goodness and fragrance, and adorned more than every existing thing; and on all sides (it is) in form gold-looking and vermilion and fire-like and covers all, and it has produce from all fruits.
4 Its root is in the garden at the earth’s end.
5 And paradise is between corruptibility and incorruptibility.
6 And two springs come out which send forth honey and milk, and their springs send forth oil and wine, and they separate into four parts, and go round with quiet course, and go down into the PARADISE OF EDEN, between corruptibility and incorruptibility.
7 And thence they go forth along the earth, and have a revolution to their circle even as other elements.
8 And here there is no unfruitful tree, and every place is blessed.
9 And (there are) three hundred angels very bright, who keep the garden, and with incessant sweet singing and never-silent voices serve the Lord throughout all days and hours.
10 And I said: How very sweet is this place, and those men said to me:
Kerwin,The writing says this place is “at the end of the earth”. (Verse 4)
It says this place is BETWEEN corruptibility and incorruptibility……. so probably not “all the way to heaven itself”?
I didn't see any information in the part you quoted that would lead me to believe Enoch was there in a flesh human body. (In Book I, he says his visits to heaven were in “dreams” and “visions”.)
But did you notice the appearance of the 300 angels in verse 9? He called them “very bright”. That sounds a lot like Jesus' appearance at the transfiguration – or his appearance to Paul on the road to Damascus.
“Very bright” is not a phrase I would use to describe the flesh body of any human being though.
Mike,There are seven heavens spoken of in 2 Enoch and this is just the third heaven that he is speaking about in this chapter so it is between earth and the highest heaven of God.
It is a physical heaven as physical plants are describes as existing in is though I will not have evidence you will except that Enoch has a flesh body unless it is literally states that. In this case I wanted merely to establish is a physical place we cannot see.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2014,01:42) Hi KW,
No doubt he was FULLY ALIVE in the Spirit.
But his being lifted up, as with us, had not been completed
Nick,1 Corinthians 15:35-38
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?” 36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of [a]something else. 38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.
Footnotes:1 Corinthians 15:37 Lit some of the rest
You are adding to the meaning of raised from the dead. The soul is raised from Hades and the body is raised from the tomb and both are rejoined. It is also called resurrection as Paul states later on:
1 Corinthians 15:42
New American Standard Bible (NASB)42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown [a]a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
Footnotes:1 Corinthians 15:42 Lit in corruption
1 Corinthians 15:42 Lit in incorruptionIt is not about Jesus' soul being raised out of Hades and from his body from his tomb and ascending to heaven but about being raised to life as will happen believers at the resurrection of the righteous.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2014,01:42) Hi KW,
Do you think when we are raised it is just to stand again on the earth??
Nick,For the Messianic age when the wicked will yet be alive but the wicked dead will remain in their graves and Satan will be bound. After the final battle there will be a new earth and a new heaven.
Nick,
Yes, as he is descending to earth to establish the Messianic Age.
The righteous dead will raise first next the righteous living will change and then together they will go to meet Jesus and his holy angels in the clouds as they are descending.
When Jesus comes again he will descend even as he ascended so long ago.
Nick,
Since it is written:
Mark 13:26
New American Standard Bible (NASB)26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
I cannot see how it will not be immediate.
Hi KW,
And what makes it certain to you that when the nations see him is the same time he meets with his brothers in the air?
I think he will have the wedding feast with them while the wrath of God is satiated on the earthQuote (kerwin @ May 31 2014,05:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 30 2014,05:01) Quote (kerwin @ May 29 2014,14:14) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 29 2014,04:24) Quote (kerwin @ May 28 2014,13:20) We are told that Jesus body did not see corruption but that his soul descended to Sheol/Hades.
Is that really explicitly said in scripture, Kerwin? Which scripture, please?
Mike,Acts 2:27
New English Translation (NET)27 because you will not leave my soul in Hades,
nor permit your Holy One to experience decay.Or are you speaking about the word “descended”?
I've never understood that to mean Jesus WENT to Hades, but God just didn't LEAVE him there.I understand it to mean Jesus' soul didn't GO TO Hades, like most of the others who die. Ie: My soul won't be abandoned in Hades like everyone else's soul. And my body won't decay like everyone else's body.
Are there any scripture that support one view or the other?
Mike,It the NET version the word leave means Jesus soul was in Hades and God did not let it remain there. Abandon means much the same as leave from what I know.
I sorta see where your coming from but it does not fit with the idea of the soul departing from a person's body as they are dying.
Also Jesus told the thief he would meet him in paradise that day and the Hades has a paradise according to Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
Kerwin……..Jesus did not tell the thief he would be with him in paradise “that day” Jesus was not in paradise that day he was dead in the grave that day, that is not paradise .The proper way it should be understood is the Jesus said it this way, I am telling you this day, you “SHALL” be with me in paradise. he did not mean that he was going there that very day Kerwin, but was referencing a future time, when the thief would be with him in paradise, he did not mean that very day he was going to be in paradise Kerwin, IMO.
Peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
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