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Mike,
Quote I don't need to “prove” anything to you. When I hear this it tells me that more likely than not the person has no proof or is uncertain of the evidence they do have.
I have not read the rest of your post so I do not know all I need to know about what you wrote.
Mike,
Quote ohn 3:13 NASB ©
No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.It is the same Greek word “oudeis” in that verse too, Kerwin. But would you understand that to mean Gabriel is still on earth after visiting Daniel…….. because LITERALLY NO ONE has ascended to heaven?
Or do you understand from the context that “human beings” are meant?
I am not sure the trinitarians translated the verse correctly and I am not in the condition to check closer at this time.
I do know the book of Enoch speaks of Enoch ascending to heaven. Do you believe that it is in error in that teaching?
Mike,
Quote The form of God is described in many scriptures, by men who were taken to heaven in visions and dreams. It is men who have never seen God that speak of seeing the similitude of God. It is clear they could not of seen the literal similitude of God but a metaphorical similitude is a whole different thing.
Wakeup,
Always be careful with all things prophetic. There are at two signs in heaven. One is the woman(the kingdom of heaven that is the net) and she is with child(the Messiah) and the second one which is the dragon whose tail has already removed a third of the angels from heaven and cast them to earth, the same earth he was on when he stood before the woman to devour the child as soon as it was born. So according to the signs Satan was already on earth and his angels had already fallen before Christ was born a child of Israel, which was then the kingdom of heaven that is the net.
Wakup,
I believe you insist Jesus was a spirit being who revealed flesh and bone as evidence he was not a spirit. Any comments?
Quote (kerwin @ May 16 2014,14:09) Wakeup, Always be careful with all things prophetic. There are at two signs in heaven. One is the woman(the kingdom of heaven that is the net) and she is with child(the Messiah) and the second one which is the dragon whose tail has already removed a third of the angels from heaven and cast them to earth, the same earth he was on when he stood before the woman to devour the child as soon as it was born. So according to the signs Satan was already on earth and his angels had already fallen before Christ was born a child of Israel, which was then the kingdom of heaven that is the net.
Kerwin.Satan was on earth since Adam and Eve.
He drew followers in heaven before the earth was made.
He cast them down to earth because he lost the war.
This war was after the child was resurrected.
HE was the cause of his followers to be cast down to earth.God is the Lord of a HOST of angels. Which is God's kingdom. His woman in heaven are his rules, and laws,
His doctrine,His church,His requirements.He brought His rules down to earth through Moses.
wakeup.
Wakeup,
I agree that Satan has been on earth since before he tempted Eve and that in tempting her he sinned and left the kingdom of God. In his sin he also pulled down a third of the heavenly host.
Even though he came to earth and caused the fall of his fellow rebels Ephesians 6:12 teaches us there is still a war against spiritual wickedness in the high places.
Quote (kerwin @ May 15 2014,20:50) Mike, Quote John 3:13 NASB ©
No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.It is the same Greek word “oudeis” in that verse too, Kerwin. But would you understand that to mean Gabriel is still on earth after visiting Daniel…….. because LITERALLY NO ONE has ascended to heaven?
Or do you understand from the context that “human beings” are meant?
I am not sure the trinitarians translated the verse correctly and I am not in the condition to check closer at this time.
I do know the book of Enoch speaks of Enoch ascending to heaven. Do you believe that it is in error in that teaching?
In chapter 14, Enoch uses the word “dream” and the word “vision” in reference to his visit to heaven.Please answer my question. Does the statement that “no ONE” has ascended to heaven mean angels too? Or only humans in the context of John 3:13?
Quote (kerwin @ May 15 2014,20:54) Mike, Quote The form of God is described in many scriptures, by men who were taken to heaven in visions and dreams. It is men who have never seen God that speak of seeing the similitude of God. It is clear they could not of seen the literal similitude of God but a metaphorical similitude is a whole different thing.
Kerwin,Men have been taken to heaven in visions and dreams. What reason do I have to NOT believe the things they saw there?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 17 2014,08:23) Quote (kerwin @ May 15 2014,20:50) Mike, Quote John 3:13 NASB ©
No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.It is the same Greek word “oudeis” in that verse too, Kerwin. But would you understand that to mean Gabriel is still on earth after visiting Daniel…….. because LITERALLY NO ONE has ascended to heaven?
Or do you understand from the context that “human beings” are meant?
I am not sure the trinitarians translated the verse correctly and I am not in the condition to check closer at this time.
I do know the book of Enoch speaks of Enoch ascending to heaven. Do you believe that it is in error in that teaching?
In chapter 14, Enoch uses the word “dream” and the word “vision” in reference to his visit to heaven.Please answer my question. Does the statement that “no ONE” has ascended to heaven mean angels too? Or only humans in the context of John 3:13?
Mike,That is the controversial passage that in some manuscripts stated Jesus was currently in heaven even as he was standing on earth teaching.
It is not a passage speaking of physically ascending or descending from heaven. Instead it is teaching is the no one could spiritually ascend to heaven if the Spirit of sonship had not come from heaven into Jesus and at the same it is in God who is in heaven.
Jesus did not use one future tense verb in the whole passage.
The translations seem to be all over the board.
I used the interlinear one at biblehub.com.
Note
John 3:13 Interlinear and Winebrenner rough translationQuote (mikeboll64 @ May 17 2014,08:27) Quote (kerwin @ May 15 2014,20:54) Mike, Quote The form of God is described in many scriptures, by men who were taken to heaven in visions and dreams. It is men who have never seen God that speak of seeing the similitude of God. It is clear they could not of seen the literal similitude of God but a metaphorical similitude is a whole different thing.
Kerwin,Men have been taken to heaven in visions and dreams. What reason do I have to NOT believe the things they saw there?
Mike,Because to believe it means what you think it does means that you believe men have seen God even as you at the same same time believe no man has seen God.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 17 2014,08:23) Quote (kerwin @ May 15 2014,20:50) Mike, Quote John 3:13 NASB ©
No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.It is the same Greek word “oudeis” in that verse too, Kerwin. But would you understand that to mean Gabriel is still on earth after visiting Daniel…….. because LITERALLY NO ONE has ascended to heaven?
Or do you understand from the context that “human beings” are meant?
I am not sure the trinitarians translated the verse correctly and I am not in the condition to check closer at this time.
I do know the book of Enoch speaks of Enoch ascending to heaven. Do you believe that it is in error in that teaching?
In chapter 14, Enoch uses the word “dream” and the word “vision” in reference to his visit to heaven.Please answer my question. Does the statement that “no ONE” has ascended to heaven mean angels too? Or only humans in the context of John 3:13?
Mike,In chapter 12 we are told that after Enoch was hidden from men he went to live with the holy ones.
Quote (kerwin @ May 17 2014,16:24) Mike, That is the controversial passage that in some manuscripts stated Jesus was currently in heaven even as he was standing on earth teaching.
Yes. And in other mss, the phrase isn't even there. And in other ones, the phrase is “who WAS in heaven” – which makes more sense, and aligns with, “I came down from heaven to do the will of He who sent me.”And in still other mss, the phrase is, “the one who is from heaven”, not “in heaven” – which also makes much more sense.
Face it Kerwin, it would have been illogical for Jesus to say he was CURRENTLY in heaven while he was talking to Nicodemus and the apostles. I mean, after he told them he came down from heaven, the whole lot of them were freaking out and wondering what he was talking about. How do you think they would have responded if he told them he was in heaven WHILE he was talking to them on earth?
There's also the possibility that “who is in heaven” is a parenthetical phrase added by John when he was writing down the event at a much later time.
So there are MANY other ways this verse could be understood. And there is hardly an English version that includes that last part.
But will YOU try to use it as a way to “weasel out” of a predicament?
Now, ANSWER THE QUESTION, please. Does the Greek word for “no ONE” refer to angels also? Or just men?
Even if we took your “spiritual ascension due to a Spirit sonship” thing seriously, you'll still have to admit that the Greek word only refers to MEN – and not to angels, right?
So get to admitting already…… so we can move on.
Quote (kerwin @ May 17 2014,16:27) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 17 2014,08:27)
Kerwin,Men have been taken to heaven in visions and dreams. What reason do I have to NOT believe the things they saw there?
Mike,Because to believe it means what you think it does means that you believe men have seen God even as you at the same same time believe no man has seen God.
Okay, listen carefully this time, Kerwin.I've said this before, and I don't want to have to KEEP saying it.
I believe that no man can see God with HUMAN EYES. I believe that eyes made of flesh are incapable of seeing God. I believe that, except for a few rare cases where God opens flesh eyes, angels are invisible to human eyes.
But men have been taken into God's realm in dreams and visions. While the man was sleeping, or whatever, the NON-FLESH part of the man (soul, spirit, mind, or whatever) was taken into heaven. And THAT PART of a man IS able to see God, and the angels in heaven.
So YES, men have seen the FORM of God. But NO, they cannot do it with their fleshy HUMAN eyes.
Quote (kerwin @ May 17 2014,16:57) Mike, In chapter 12 we are told that after Enoch was hidden from men he went to live with the holy ones.
And?Quote (kerwin @ May 16 2014,14:23) Wakup, I believe you insist Jesus was a spirit being who revealed flesh and bone as evidence he was not a spirit. Any comments?
Kerwin.Scripture says that we *WILL* see him *AS* He is.
What they saw was not AS He is.
Can you understand.
That was not what He really is.
His appearing in the flesh has a purpose.
That you fail to see.wakeup.
to all…….Jesus now is just as he was when he was resurrected,and will return as such, a flesh and bone human being. He will drink wine with his disciples in the kingdom of God on this earth
Jesus is no God of any kind, not now or ever was, he did not preexist his berth on this earth either.
peace and love…………gene
Hi GB,
Dubious claim that he is still in his torn old flesh body1Jn3
“2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.”
We do not know what we will be like but we will be like himYou claim you do know?
You claim we will have a torn body too?Quote (Wakeup @ May 18 2014,20:40) Quote (kerwin @ May 16 2014,14:23) Wakup, I believe you insist Jesus was a spirit being who revealed flesh and bone as evidence he was not a spirit. Any comments?
Kerwin.Scripture says that we *WILL* see him *AS* He is.
What they saw was not AS He is.
Can you understand.
That was not what He really is.
His appearing in the flesh has a purpose.
That you fail to see.wakeup.
Wakeup,That is what you want those words to mean but what we are told is that we have not yet not changed but when we see Jesus we shall change to be like him.
It does not say what he will be like only that we will be like him.
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