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Quote (kerwin @ May 02 2014,11:04) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 02 2014,06:46) Quote (kerwin @ May 01 2014,12:35) In none of these is the features of God's face or backside mentioned. Instead it is his goodness and his glory that are being spoken of. The face of God's glory and goodness was too much for sinful man to bear but the back of it was bearable by Moses.
The Hebrew words say “face” and “backside”, Kerwin.It is thought by some commentators that Moses saw a kind of “afterglow” when God passed by. Or the “after effects of God's presence”.
But the Hebrew word is “back”. God also said He would shield Moses with His “hand”.
So we have “hand”, “face”, and “back”. Other scriptures define God's body more in depth.
Mike,Have you considered it could mean “presence, sight ” which is considered an archaic meaning in our language today.
No, since Moses was allowed to see the “glory”, or “presence” of God. But he was specifically NOT allowed to see God's “face”.Quote (kerwin @ May 02 2014,11:06) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 02 2014,06:32) Quote (kerwin @ May 01 2014,11:40) Mike, We are assembled here today before God. Where is God?
On His throne in heaven, Kerwin.(Just do a search of the exact phrase “in heaven”. You'll see plenty of scriptures that tell us exactly where God is. Or, you could just go by the prayer Jesus taught us.)
Mike,So according to you God does not have to be present for a group or individual to be before him.
I can be “in God's presence” right now, while I'm on earth and He is in heaven – where He dwells.Where does Jesus dwell, Kerwin? Doesn't he sit at God's right hand IN HEAVEN?
Yet Jesus said he would be there whenever two or more are gathered in his name.
The BEINGS of God and Jesus dwell in heaven. Their “presence” can extend to anywhere.
Bump for Nick:
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 01 2014,19:25) Jesus is the firstborn of the new creation which is the relevant one.
Which scripture says Jesus is the firstborn of the NEW creation, Nick?Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 03 2014,22:34) Quote (kerwin @ May 02 2014,11:04) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 02 2014,06:46) Quote (kerwin @ May 01 2014,12:35) In none of these is the features of God's face or backside mentioned. Instead it is his goodness and his glory that are being spoken of. The face of God's glory and goodness was too much for sinful man to bear but the back of it was bearable by Moses.
The Hebrew words say “face” and “backside”, Kerwin.It is thought by some commentators that Moses saw a kind of “afterglow” when God passed by. Or the “after effects of God's presence”.
But the Hebrew word is “back”. God also said He would shield Moses with His “hand”.
So we have “hand”, “face”, and “back”. Other scriptures define God's body more in depth.
Mike,Have you considered it could mean “presence, sight ” which is considered an archaic meaning in our language today.
No, since Moses was allowed to see the “glory”, or “presence” of God. But he was specifically NOT allowed to see God's “face”.
Mike,I know that by face God meant the most intense vision of his goodness and glory and by back he meant a less intense vision of his glory and goodness that Mosses could handle without dying.
The flesh of a man's face often show while the back of a man is concealed with clothing. God's arm and hand is his strength so his hand is a portion of his strength. A insignificant portion God used to blind Moses to the full intensity of his face.
I am not sure if a God has an angel symbolize these things or not but I do know the Law was ordained by angels at the hand of Moses, Galatians 3:19.
Mike,
You might want to consider that you are claiming Mosses saw God and that does not fit your chosen interpretation of John 1:18.
Kerwin,
God Himself said that no “adam” could see His face and live. Yet Moses and the entire congregation a Horeb were said to have “seen God”. God was also said to have “appeared” to some of the elders in the wilderness.
But then Moses pointed out that they saw no “form” the day God spoke to them from Horeb.
I understand God's claim that no man could see His FACE and live to mean that no HUMAN BEING is capable of LITERALLY seeing God Himself with human eyes.
On the other hand, I know that God DOES have a form, since that form is often described in scripture. And I know that angels are spiritual beings of light, who ARE able to LITERALLY see God Himself.
What more would you like me to say on the matter?
Bottom line: No HUMAN BEING has LITERALLY seen God Himself with human eyes. Many have seen His “glory”.
Angels, on the other hand, ARE able to LITERALLY see God Himself with their spiritual eyes. And some of them are always in His presence, and LITERALLY see Him always.
This is my understanding – which came from scriptures.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 03 2014,10:38) Bump for Nick: Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 01 2014,19:25) Jesus is the firstborn of the new creation which is the relevant one.
Which scripture says Jesus is the firstborn of the NEW creation, Nick?
Nick?Mike,
1) Do you believe the law was ordained by angels or do you believe God himself ordained it. If so why did Paul say it was ordained by angels?
2) According to you God has a fort that can be copied in an idol but chose not to show that form at Horeb as a symbol that he desired they not worship him through an idol.
3) Do you believe the sight of an angel can kill humans?
Hi MB,
4.Revelation 21:5
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.Hi MB,
.Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren..Colossians 1:15
who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:.Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence..Hebrews 12:23
to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,Quote (kerwin @ May 04 2014,18:53) Mike, 1) Do you believe the law was ordained by angels or do you believe God himself ordained it. If so why did Paul say it was ordained by angels?
2) According to you God has a fort that can be copied in an idol but chose not to show that form at Horeb as a symbol that he desired they not worship him through an idol.
3) Do you believe the sight of an angel can kill humans?
1. Both – the angels being vice-regents in service to God.2. He has a form, but a human being cannot see it.
3. To see them as they are in heaven might possibly kill a human being. Paul was definitely blinded by Jesus' brilliance.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 04 2014,20:05) Colossians 1:15
who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
This is the one I'm most familiar with, Nick.And as you can see, it says Jesus is the firstborn of EVERY creature – not just “NEW creations”.
The passage then goes on to explain how all things, invisible and invisible, in heaven and on earth, were made through this one who was created first.
I looked at the other scriptures you posted, but did not see any support for your original claim.
If WE are in Christ, then WE are a new creation. But I don't know of a scripture that says Christ himself ever became a “new creation”. Is there one?
(Not that such a scripture would change the REAL teaching of Colossians 1:15-16………. I'm just wondering.)
Mike,
2) But they evidence you have presented that God has a form is evidence that humans have seen that form. If Moses saw the appearance of God's back then he saw God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 05 2014,13:05) Hi MB,
.Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
.Colossians 1:15
who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:.Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence..Hebrews 12:23
to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Nick………I agree with you, Jesus is the firstborn of the new creation of God the Father, he is the first of mankind to be born into the kingdom of God from all creation.He also hold the position as the first born in the family of God. We are his brothers and sisters in the family of God , we like Jesus all have one Father, who is over all and “IN” all and “THROUGH” ALL. All Who have received into them the Spirit of God are his children and are in the house hold of God. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene
Quote (kerwin @ May 06 2014,06:51) Mike, 2) But they evidence you have presented that God has a form is evidence that humans have seen that form. If Moses saw the appearance of God's back then he saw God.
Moses asked to see God's glory…. not His form.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 06 2014,19:30) Nick………I agree with you, Jesus is the firstborn of the new creation of God the Father……
My point was that no scripture actually says such a thing.Hi MB,
Yes none say that.
There are two creationsCould men have misconstrued which is being spoken of?
Hi MB,
2cor 5
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
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