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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 07 2014,11:05) Anything else is breaking of the First commandment, “YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GOD BESIDES ME”. Kerwin those are not my words, but the words of the LORD “YAHWEH” “OUR GOD”.
That's right, Gene. Those words came straight from Jehovah Himself.So what exactly did He mean by telling the Israelites that they shall have no god before Him……. if He was LITERALLY the ONLY god in existence?
I mean, how COULD they have another god, if there simply WEREN'T any other gods?
That scripture is just one of MANY times that Jehovah Himself acknowledges the existence of other gods, Gene.
Here are some thoughts from NETNotes about Exodus 20:3…….
The expression עַל־פָּנָי (’al-panay) has several possible interpretations.
S. R. Driver suggests “in front of me,” meaning obliging me to behold them, and also giving a prominence above me (Exodus, 193-94).
W. F. Albright rendered it “You shall not prefer other gods to me” (From the Stone Age to Christianity, 297, n. 29).
B. Jacob (Exodus, 546) illustrates it with marriage: the wife could belong to only one man while every other man was “another man.” They continued to exist but were not available to her.
The point is clear from the Law, regardless of the specific way the prepositional phrase is rendered. God demands absolute allegiance, to the exclusion of all other deities.
I follow that commandment, Gene. While I acknowledge the scriptural FACT that there indeed exist MANY gods, both in heaven and on earth, I place NONE of them above Jehovah, the God OF all those other gods.
I worship and serve only Jehovah as my God – even though I realize many other gods do exist.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 07 2014,14:55) Mike, God will judge the earth but he already posses all nations of earth in the physical sense. Spiritually he does not.
Zechariah 8:23
This is what the Lord Almighty says: “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’”At the time that psalm was written, only Israel had Jehovah as their “national God”. But the days are coming when ALL NATIONS will know and serve Jehovah as their God.
This is what is meant by verse 8, Kerwin. Jesus taught us to pray, “Let your kingdom come, and your will be done on earth, as it is in heaven”. In verse 8, the psalmist is basically saying the same thing.
He is praying for the time when all are judged, and the ones remaining have Jehovah as their only God – no matter what nation they belong to. In those days, Jehovah will have figuratively inherited all nations as His own – instead of being the “national God” of only one nation.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 07 2014,15:15) Mike, About the phrase, “and fall like princes” in Psalms 82. I believe the word “princes” can be translated angels. I also believe is the children of Israel and not angels that are being told if they continue to disobey they will fall like the angels who disobeyed long before. I do not believe angels that were disobeying at the time Psalms 82 was written or afterwards. On the other hand the children of Israel were and still are.
Kerwin,As usual, our interpretations of scripture are not in sync.
These are my reasons for believing Jehovah was speaking about other supernatural beings in Psalm 82………
1. There is no time in scripture, or in secular historical accounts, where Jehovah ever stood in the middle of an assembly of a bunch of Israelite men, and rendered judgment upon them for the bad things they had done.
In contrast, Job 1:6 and 2:1 both indicate that God assembled with His heavenly council of spirit beings frequently. The statement, “Let US make man in OUR image” also supports this thought. As do Isaiah 6:1-8 and 1 Kings 22:19-22……….. among others.
2. God telling a human being that he would someday die LIKE a human being makes absolutely no sense.
3. The only way Jesus could have quoted that psalm to address the claim of the Pharisees in John 10:33-36 is if the psalm DIDN'T refer to HUMAN BEINGS to whom the word of God came.
Because if it did, then each of those Pharisees would have as much of a claim to being a god as Jesus did.
You are welcome to your view, but I don't count this psalm as a “proof” from you that men were called gods in scripture.
And as for your claim, “I do not believe angels that were disobeying at the time Psalms 82 was written or afterwards”, you must have forgotten about Satan and his angels, who continue to disobey to this very day.
Mike,
1) My chosen definition of the word assembly that applies to Psalms 82:1 are different than yours so I am going to insist God always stands in the assembly of the children of Israel and judges.
2) God telling his human children if the don't repent they will die like humans and fall like angels makes perfect sense.
3) Jesus was not claiming he is one of the gods; he was claiming he is superior to the gods as he did not receive the word but was “sanctified, and sent into the world”.
4) Satan was disobeying at that time and he was also one of the princes that had already fallen so calling him to repent before he fell like he already did would be too late.
5) The arise as used in Psalms 82:8 is equivalent to repent.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2014,05:01) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 07 2014,14:55) Mike, God will judge the earth but he already posses all nations of earth in the physical sense. Spiritually he does not.
Zechariah 8:23
This is what the Lord Almighty says: “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’”At the time that psalm was written, only Israel had Jehovah as their “national God”. But the days are coming when ALL NATIONS will know and serve Jehovah as their God.
This is what is meant by verse 8, Kerwin. Jesus taught us to pray, “Let your kingdom come, and your will be done on earth, as it is in heaven”. In verse 8, the psalmist is basically saying the same thing.
He is praying for the time when all are judged, and the ones remaining have Jehovah as their only God – no matter what nation they belong to. In those days, Jehovah will have figuratively inherited all nations as His own – instead of being the “national God” of only one nation.
Mike,Yes, that is why I said spiritually he does not posses all nations.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 09 2014,03:00) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2014,05:01) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 07 2014,14:55) Mike, God will judge the earth but he already posses all nations of earth in the physical sense. Spiritually he does not.
Zechariah 8:23
This is what the Lord Almighty says: “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’”At the time that psalm was written, only Israel had Jehovah as their “national God”. But the days are coming when ALL NATIONS will know and serve Jehovah as their God.
This is what is meant by verse 8, Kerwin. Jesus taught us to pray, “Let your kingdom come, and your will be done on earth, as it is in heaven”. In verse 8, the psalmist is basically saying the same thing.
He is praying for the time when all are judged, and the ones remaining have Jehovah as their only God – no matter what nation they belong to. In those days, Jehovah will have figuratively inherited all nations as His own – instead of being the “national God” of only one nation.
Mike,Yes, that is why I said spiritually he does not posses all nations.
KTHAT IS NOT TRUE BUT IT COULD BE IF THEIR IS ONLY “ONE TRUE BELIEVER IN EACH OF THE NATIONS OF THE WORLD ,
WE KNOW CHRIST WILL NOT SAVE ALL OF MEN BECAUSE SOME WILL NOT SUBMIT
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 08 2014,04:25) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 08 2014,03:06)
T,I cannot read you mind and therefore I can only hypothesis what you see in these passages based on my memory of prior conversations.
Quote Pr 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.Is about God's wisdom. It is a personification and not an actual being. Being set up from everlasting means from a time without beginning. That contradicts either contradicts your idea that this passage is speaking of Jesus or your claim that Jesus was created.
God's word is born of wisdom and expresses wisdom but it wisdom is not Jesus. Jesus rules by wisdom. Jesus personifies God's words and so he also personifies God's wisdom.
KFIRST “THE WORD” HIS NOT WRITTEN OR SPOKEN WORDS FROM ANYONE ,THIS IS SO FARE FROM THE TRUTH THAN BLACK IS FROM WITHE ,NO PERSONIFICATION THIS IS AN INVENTION OF THE DEVIL,
THE WORD” HIS JESUS CHRIST ,THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD ” THE FIRST BORN OVER ALL CREATION ;THIS WILL AND MAKE THE SON OF GOD THE “ELDER “OVER ALL INTELLIGENT CREATURES THAT ARE CREATED INTO THE IMAGE OF GOD ;THIS MEAN “ANGEL AND MEN “
THIS WAS THE SEAT HE WAS OCCUPIED BEFORE THE WORLD BEGINS ,BEFORE CREATION STARTED ,HE WAS THE FIRST ;
SO HE HAD SUPREMACY OVER ANYTHING THAT ADD TO BE DONE IN HEAVEN AT THE REQUEST OF HIS FATHER ,
THIS IS WHY HE WAS THE ONLY ONE THAT COULD SAVE MEN FROM HIS FALLEN CONDITION ,EVEN THOUGH HE AD TO GO THROUGH THE HUMILIATION OF BEING COVERED WITH FLESH ,AND DIE AS A MAN .TO SAVE OTHERS ,
PROV;8;22;31 IS NOT ABOUT WISDOM IT IS ABOUT THE SON OF GOD ;GOD DOES NOT WAIST HIS TIME TO PUT TO WRITTEN WORDS HUMAN FANTASY ;ALL SCRIPTURES ARE ABOUT THE SON AND GOD 'S GLORY
T,1) I was speaking of wisdom being a personification in Proverbs 8 and not God's word. By personification I did not mean wisdom is a person but instead meant the writer chose to describe is with words that made that gave it the appearance of a person.
Proverbs 8:15-16
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)15 By me kings reign,
and princes decree justice.
16 By me princes rule, and nobles,
even all the judges of the earth.Kings reign by God's wisdom and princes decree justice by the same wisdom. Princes, nobles, and all the judges of earth rule by God's wisdom.
Jesus is the Prince of all things in heaven and on earth and he decrees justice by God's wisdom and he rules by God's wisdom. That does not make him the wisdom spoken of in Proverbs 8,
k
Quote 1) I was speaking of wisdom being a personification in Proverbs 8 and not God's word. we have learn through scriptures that God does not do anything without implicating HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON ;
AND SO IT HIS HIS SON THE ONE CALLED THE WORD” THAT WOULD COME DOWN AND LAY HIS LIVE DOWN FOR US ,DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT GOD IS PLAYING WITH WISDOM HAS MEN DOES ;THEIR IS NO PERSONIFICATION ONLY IN SOME CORRUPTED MIND ,
IF YOU READ PROVERB VERY SLOWLY AND ASK YOURSELF THE RIGHT QUESTIONS YOU COULD COME TO SEE THE TRUTH IN IT ,
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 09 2014,03:24) k Quote 1) I was speaking of wisdom being a personification in Proverbs 8 and not God's word. we have learn through scriptures that God does not do anything without implicating HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON ;
AND SO IT HIS HIS SON THE ONE CALLED THE WORD” THAT WOULD COME DOWN AND LAY HIS LIVE DOWN FOR US ,DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT GO IS PLAYING WITH WISDOM HAS MEN DOES ;THEIR IS NO PERSONIFICATION ONLY IN SOME CORRUPTED MIND ,
IF YOU READ PROVERB VERY SLOWLY AND ASK YOURSELF THE RIGHT QUESTIONS YOU COULD COME TO SEE THE TRUTH IN IT ,
T,The correct answer is that Proverbs teaches us that kings reign by the wisdom of God. You are looking for evidence that supports your teaching that Jesus was before he was and Proverbs 8 does not supply it.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 09 2014,03:59) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 09 2014,03:24) k Quote 1) I was speaking of wisdom being a personification in Proverbs 8 and not God's word. we have learn through scriptures that God does not do anything without implicating HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON ;
AND SO IT HIS HIS SON THE ONE CALLED THE WORD” THAT WOULD COME DOWN AND LAY HIS LIVE DOWN FOR US ,DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT GO IS PLAYING WITH WISDOM HAS MEN DOES ;THEIR IS NO PERSONIFICATION ONLY IN SOME CORRUPTED MIND ,
IF YOU READ PROVERB VERY SLOWLY AND ASK YOURSELF THE RIGHT QUESTIONS YOU COULD COME TO SEE THE TRUTH IN IT ,
T,The correct answer is that Proverbs teaches us that kings reign by the wisdom of God. You are looking for evidence that supports your teaching that Jesus was before he was and Proverbs 8 does not supply it.
KQuote The correct answer is that Proverbs teaches us that kings reign by the wisdom of God WISDOM IS UNDERSTANDING AND POWER AND THE USE OF IT ;
THAT IS HOW GOD MAKE SOMEONE KING OR GET RID OF ONE
THE WORD WISDOM CHANGES ACCORDING TO THE CONTEXT ;SO ARE ALL THE SCRIPTURES THAT IS WHAT GOD DID
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 08 2014,14:55) 1) My chosen definition of the word assembly that applies to Psalms 82:1 are different than yours so I am going to insist God always stands in the assembly of the children of Israel and judges.
Then that is your mistake to make, and you will have to adjust the scriptures accordingly to fit around that mistake. You are quite used to doing that, so it should be no problem for you.Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 08 2014,14:55) 2) God telling his human children if the don't repent they will die like humans and fall like angels makes perfect sense.
And what would happen if they DID repent……. like the people of Nineveh repented? Did that mean they WOULDN'T die like men? Are the people of Nineveh still living to this day because they repented? Or did they die like all men die – despite the fact that they repented? Which one?Also, don't just ASSUME “angels” in that verse, when the word is “princes”. It is more likely that Satan is the “one of the princes” God was talking about. And God was telling the OTHER misbehaving angels that, although they were technically gods, they were now going to die like men, and fall like that particular prince named Satan who fell from grace a long time before that.
Get it? He was telling them they would fall like a certain “one of the princes”…….. and they all knew exactly who He was talking about.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 08 2014,14:55) 3) Jesus was not claiming he is one of the gods; he was claiming he is superior to the gods………
The claim against Jesus was, “You make yourself out to be a god.” And Jesus in no way DENIED their claim. Instead, he EXPLAINED to them that lesser ones than he were called gods by Jehovah Himself in scripture, and scripture cannot be broken.And then, after making sure they knew that LESSER ones than himself were called gods, he asked them, “Why then would ME being a god pose a problem – since I ALONE am the one God handpicked from all of those gods, and sent to earth?”
Get it? He was saying, “So what if I make myself out to be a god? I'm greater than these other ones that Jehovah Himself called gods!”
And how exactly was he “making himself out to be a god”? Read John 5:18 for the answer. See? Even though the Pharisees didn't BELIEVE Jesus was the LITERAL Son of God, and therefore something MORE than just a regular old human being, they surely knew that is what Jesus CLAIMED. And it stands to reason that the LITERAL Son of God would himself be a god. That's why Jesus didn't deny it, but explained to them how it was okay for him to be a god, since even lesser ones than he were called gods in scripture.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 08 2014,14:55) 4a) Satan was disobeying at that time and he was also one of the princes that had already fallen………..
You are correct that Satan was THE “one of the princes” who fell, and the only person God was talking to those other angels about.We only know the name of three of those princes from scripture: Michael, Jesus, and Satan. Which “ONE of those princes” fell, Kerwin?
God was telling those angels who followed Satan's unrighteous ways that they were going to fall just like he did, and die like human beings die……… even though at that time they were immortal gods.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 08 2014,14:55) 4b) ……so calling him to repent before he fell like he already did would be too late.
Where are you seeing a call to repentance in that psalm? The judgment had already been rendered. The verdict had already been handed down: “You will fall like Satan fell, and die like human beings die.”Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 08 2014,14:55) 5) The arise as used in Psalms 82:8 is equivalent to repent.
The “arise” is the psalmist talking to Jehovah. What sense would it make for Jehovah to already render the verdict of what was to be, and THEN tell these offenders to go off and inherit all the nations?Kerwin, I think that sometimes your common sense is lacking. But stick with me, and together we'll get it figured out, okay?
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 08 2014,15:00) Mike, Yes, that is why I said spiritually he does not posses all nations.
And Psalm 82:8 is the psalmist asking Jehovah to hurry up and get to the part where He DOES spiritually possess ALL nations.Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 08 2014,15:59) You are looking for evidence that supports your teaching that Jesus was before he was and Proverbs 8 does not supply it.
Proverbs 8 is one of the over 50 places in scripture that “supply it”, Kerwin. But you must have eyes to see…… eyes that are NOT self-inflicted with blinders.1 Corinthians 1:24
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ…… the wisdom of God.What PERSON is metaphorically called “the wisdom of God” in the above verse, Kerwin? Could it be the same PERSON who is metaphorically called “the wisdom of God” in Proverbs 8?
Hmmmmm………… Proverbs 8:22 says God brought this particular “wisdom” forth as the first of His works. Where have we heard that before? Do “firstborn of every creature”, “God's firstborn Son”, and “beginning of the creation by God” ring any bells?
8:23-26 mention how the origins of this particular “wisdom” were from ancient times. Where have we heard that before? Maybe in Micah 5:2, John 8:58, or Jude 1:25?
8:27-31 explain how this particular “wisdom” was a master craftsman at God's side during the creation process. Where have we heard that before? Perhaps in John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, 1 Corinthians 8:6, and Hebrews 1:2?
The signposts are all there, Kerwin. You just need to take off those blinders so you can SEE them.
Mike,
Quote Then that is your mistake to make, and you will have to adjust the scriptures accordingly to fit around that mistake. You are quite used to doing that, so it should be no problem for you. I already quoted a passage that spoke of the assembly of Israel but you chose to disregard it. I see no reason to argue with someone who is in denial. You either believe it or not but it does not change the fact that it is fairly common in Scripture to “edah” to mean “community”.
Exodus 12:3
New International Version (NIV)3 Tell the whole community of Israel that on the tenth day of this month each man is to take a lamb[a] for his family, one for each household.
Footnotes:Exodus 12:3
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:
Kerwin,
I don't “deny” that there are “communities”, “assemblies”, and “congregations” of human beings mentioned all throughout scripture – so therefore I am NOT “in denial” about what you've “shown me”.
What you HAVEN'T been able to show me is that God was ever “standing” in the midst of any of these congregations, rendering judgments upon those present.
I have made my points on this matter – all of them good, scriptural, and sensible. I have shown you that it makes no sense whatsoever for God to tell MEN that they would someday die like men. Because except for Enoch and Elijah, ALL MEN have died like men. I also pointed out for you that the men of Nineveh ended up dying like men even after they repented and put on sackcloth.
So there is no scenario where God could tell a MAN, “Straighten up and fly right……. OR you're going to die like a man.”
I also showed you that Jesus' use of that psalm would make no sense if the gods mentioned in it were MEN.
I also made a reasonable assessment that Satan was most likely the “one of the princes” that fell, and that for God to tell ANYONE they were going to fall like the prince Satan, it would have to be SPIRIT BEINGS He was talking to. To tell a MAN they would “fall like Satan” might be possible, but would be MUCH less likely in that context.
I showed you all these things and more……. things to which you have no valid rebuttal or explanation.
So if anyone here is “in denial”, it is you.
Believe what you want. The facts, scriptures, and logic are all on MY side.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 10 2014,08:45) Kerwin, I don't “deny” that there are “communities”, “assemblies”, and “congregations” of human beings mentioned all throughout scripture – so therefore I am NOT “in denial” about what you've “shown me”.
What you HAVEN'T been able to show me is that God was ever “standing” in the midst of any of these congregations, rendering judgments upon those present.
I have made my points on this matter – all of them good, scriptural, and sensible. I have shown you that it makes no sense whatsoever for God to tell MEN that they would someday die like men. Because except for Enoch and Elijah, ALL MEN have died like men. I also pointed out for you that the men of Nineveh ended up dying like men even after they repented and put on sackcloth.
So there is no scenario where God could tell a MAN, “Straighten up and fly right……. OR you're going to die like a man.”
I also showed you that Jesus' use of that psalm would make no sense if the gods mentioned in it were MEN.
I also made a reasonable assessment that Satan was most likely the “one of the princes” that fell, and that for God to tell ANYONE they were going to fall like the prince Satan, it would have to be SPIRIT BEINGS He was talking to. To tell a MAN they would “fall like Satan” might be possible, but would be MUCH less likely in that context.
I showed you all these things and more……. things to which you have no valid rebuttal or explanation.
So if anyone here is “in denial”, it is you.
Believe what you want. The facts, scriptures, and logic are all on MY side.
Mike,The same word means “communities”, “assemblies”, and “congregations” and the AV of the KJV just labels the all congregations in the verses I have checked. The newer versions translate the same Hebrew word to different English words.
So what I have pointed out is that your criteria is flawed as it does not tale into account that Psalms 82:1 could be speaking about the community of El.
God is always judging in the community if El.
I have not addressed the rest of your earlier post which I felt in part was you scrambling for justification for your choice of doctrine. I hope to get in a mindset to handle it as God teaches me to handle all things.
Mike,
Quote And what would happen if they DID repent……. like the people of Nineveh repented? Did that mean they WOULDN'T die like men? Are the people of Nineveh still living to this day because they repented? Or did they die like all men die – despite the fact that they repented? Which one? Also, don't just ASSUME “angels” in that verse, when the word is “princes”. It is more likely that Satan is the “one of the princes” God was talking about. And God was telling the OTHER misbehaving angels that, although they were technically gods, they were now going to die like men, and fall like that particular prince named Satan who fell from grace a long time before that.
Get it? He was telling them they would fall like a certain “one of the princes”…….. and they all knew exactly who He was talking about.
God is instructing the gods not to be carnal just Paul instructs the Corinthians not to be carnal at a later date.
1 Corinthians 3:1-3
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
If they do not repent they will die like the men they walk like.
There were many princes that fell at not just one. It does not say you will fall like a certain one of the princes. When I hear “you will fall like one of the princes it means that you will fall like one of the princes who fell long before Psalms 82 was written. That is why they are called fallen angels.
To All………. All have sinned and all will die, that is the Judgement of the ONE and ONLY GOD, from the start of mans existence, the SOUL that sins “IT” SHALL DIE, and again “ALL” have sinned and come short of the Glory of GOD Now therefore all SOULS “MUST” DIE, and they ALL will die in A DAY which is a (1000 YEAR PERIOD) With GOD. No one has ever lived over that time Period, including Enoch and Elijah both died within that time Period also. All living Souls who have sinned, experience Death, within that thousand year time period, which is ONE DAY WITH GOD.
Jesus did not save us from dying, he saves us from eternal death He removed the “eternal” death sentence from us, by paying for it with his LIFE. We were all bought with a Price, that price was Jesus's Life. And believe me his life was just as important to him, as ours is to us. No greater gift could a man give then to lay down his life for another, why because he is giving “ALL” he has of his known existence. And that included Jesus also.
The only one who could have not died, was Jesus, because that “MAN” never sinned, and believe me, His life was Just as important as your life is to you, but for our sake He went through a most torturous death and God accepted it as our “ETERNAL” DEATH ” PAYMENT”. So we do not have to remain dead, once we die, and that is because of Jesus' Sacrifice which “GOD GAVE and “EXCEPTED”, for the life of the world.
But that does not mean we “ALL” will not experience death ONCE because we have “ALL” Sinned. What it mean is we can be resurrected back to Life again, even if we have sinned and died. When Jesus said they have passed from death into life he was talking about the “Eternal”, part of God Judgement. Not the fact that we will not experience death once. IMO
peace and love to you all………………………………………..gene
MIke …….I have a question for you, what does the actual “WORD” GOD mean to you? , I want your actual understanding of its definition, and what it implies to you.
peace and love……………………………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 09 2014,08:43) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 08 2014,15:59) You are looking for evidence that supports your teaching that Jesus was before he was and Proverbs 8 does not supply it.
Proverbs 8 is one of the over 50 places in scripture that “supply it”, Kerwin. But you must have eyes to see…… eyes that are NOT self-inflicted with blinders.1 Corinthians 1:24
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ…… the wisdom of God.What PERSON is metaphorically called “the wisdom of God” in the above verse, Kerwin? Could it be the same PERSON who is metaphorically called “the wisdom of God” in Proverbs 8?
Hmmmmm………… Proverbs 8:22 says God brought this particular “wisdom” forth as the first of His works. Where have we heard that before? Do “firstborn of every creature”, “God's firstborn Son”, and “beginning of the creation by God” ring any bells?
8:23-26 mention how the origins of this particular “wisdom” were from ancient times. Where have we heard that before? Maybe in Micah 5:2, John 8:58, or Jude 1:25?
8:27-31 explain how this particular “wisdom” was a master craftsman at God's side during the creation process. Where have we heard that before? Perhaps in John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, 1 Corinthians 8:6, and Hebrews 1:2?
The signposts are all there, Kerwin. You just need to take off those blinders so you can SEE them.
Mike,Jesus is the Light.
God is Love.
Jesus is the Wisdom of God.
All are true if understood correctly.Wisdom is literally the wisdom of God even though she has been given the traits of a person for instructional purposes. It is by her that kings reign.
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