What does it mean that Jesus came in the flesh?

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 05 2014,09:21)

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 05 2014,09:09) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 05 2014,06:53) K wrong analogy; see it this way ;my father lives in Europe and now i say father give me back my room i had BEFORE I LEFT , THIS IS MORE IN LINE WITH WHAT WE DISCUSS RIGHT T, It sounds like you are referring to a room as being a person's because he occupies it.  So how do you think that relates to the glory Jesus had with God before the world began? K Like Christ. HAD BEFORE

T,

That does not tell me anything.  I have no idea what definition of glory you are using.

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 05 2014,23:04)

Kerwin, here is a link to the writings of Michael Heiser on the Divine Council of God. Give it a read, if you like. There is a lot of information, and it is quite in depth…… which is why I haven't yet brought it up on Heaven Net. Unfortunately, most of HN's members are still on milk when it comes to the scriptural teachings of the many gods mentioned in the Bible. You though, are able to handle this information.  If you like, after reading it, we can start a thread and discuss some of the scriptures he uses, and the claims he makes. He has also written many other things on this subject.

Mike,

I read the piece in Elohim. He inserts conclusions that he may have an argument for elsewhere and therefore any flaws in the argument cannot be pointed out.

He differs with Strong's and other Hebrew Lexicons on how elohim is used in Scripture. Sometimes his case is stronger than other times.

He points out that Samuel is called an elohim when he is a ghost and then assumes that all ghosts are called elohim. The most I can say is that some ghosts are called elohim. A general statement such as “man was made a little lower than the elohim” would support the argument that all angels are called elohim. We know the elohim are messengers in that case because the writer of Hebrews translated elohim to messengers.

His conclusion basic meaning of elohim is not of earth is therefore not sound. It is never the less still a working hypothesis.

[kerwin]

Mike,

The reason I hypothesize that some believe Psalms 82 is speaking of human judges is verse 8 which goes.

Psalm 82:8
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth:
for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Angels are not the ones that will inherit all nations.  The saints will.  This same idea is paraphrased by Paul in his first letter to the Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 6:2
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 05 2014,15:01)

Mike, The reason I hypothesize that some believe Psalms 82 is speaking of human judges is verse 8 which goes. Psalm 82:8 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV) 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations. Angels are not the ones that will inherit all nations.  The saints will.

Remember this, from the first NETNotes info I posted here:

The psalmist pictures God standing in the “assembly of El” where he accuses the “gods” of failing to promote justice on earth. God pronounces sentence upon them, announcing that they will die like men. Having witnessed the scene, the psalmist then asks God to establish his just rule over the earth.

In verse 8, the psalmist is asking JEHOVAH to judge the earth. The “God” in verse 8 is JEHOVAH, Kerwin.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 05 2014,14:46)

A general statement such as “man was made a little lower than the elohim” would support the argument that all angels are called elohim. We know the elohim are messengers in that case because the writer of Hebrews translated elohim to messengers.

Bravo, Kerwin!  You are able to understand that angels, who are all supernatural beings, are indeed gods, and are called as much in many different scriptures.

Therefore, when Paul says there are many gods, both in heaven and on earth, he is not lying.  And plus, knowing this FACT of scripture enables us to make sense out of titles such as “MOST HIGH God”, “God OF gods”, and “God ALMIGHTY”.

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 05 2014,14:46)

His conclusion basic meaning of elohim is not of earth is therefore not sound.

But that's why I'm waiting for you, or someone, to show me where a HUMAN BEING is called a god in scripture.

If there is no CLEAR scripture in which a HUMAN BEING is called a god, his conclusion IS sound.

Now, considering Psalm 82, we know you still have a couple of points you need to address, right?  Well, here's another one:

Consider HOW Jesus used that psalm.  They were accusing him of making HIMSELF out to be a god, right?  And his response was, “Well, if God called THEM gods, then why not ME – the ONLY ONE that God set apart from all the others and sent into the world?”

Now, how would this argument have worked for him if the ones to whom the word of God came were mere men?  Wouldn't ANY of the Pharisees, to whom he quoted that psalm, also be able to call THEMSELVES gods – if that psalm only referred to MEN to whom the word of God came?  Didn't the Torah also come to all of those scribes and Pharisees?  

Did you know those men had to be able to recite the entire Torah – WORD FOR WORD – by the time they were 8 years old, in order to be considered worthy to be the servant/helper of a real priest, before maybe someday being a priest themselves?

The priests were the rock stars of that era.  That's why none of Jesus' disciples even hesitated when a rabbi looked at them and said, “Follow me”.  It was like Elvis Presley was asking them to come hang out with him and learn the trade………. a very LUCRATIVE trade.

Anyway, the point is that if the psalm was about men, ANY of those Pharisees had just as much right to say the word of God had come to THEM as Jesus had to say it had come to HIM.  (Of course we know that it came to Jesus in a more direct and pure way, but I'm talking from the Pharisees' standpoint.  From THEIR standpoint, if Jesus was saying that MEN to whom the word of God came were gods, then ALL OF THEM would be equally gods.)

Get it?  What then would Jesus' point in using that psalm have been?

On the other hand, if it was well known that the gods in the psalm were SUPERNATURAL BEINGS, then Jesus would have made his point by saying that, out of ALL of those supernatural beings who were called gods, he ALONE was set aside by God as something special, and sent into the world.  And THAT would fit his use of that psalm – because he was saying, “If these LESSER ones can be called gods, then why can't this GREATER one?”

[GeneBalthrop]

Kerwin………The reason Jesus used that scripture was to make a point, that if scripture says they (the pharisees) themselves  “Belonged” to GOD in a possessive sense then,  Why were they upset with Jesus when he said , he was God's Son then. another word they could say they were the children of God but Jesus couldn't?,  Jesus did not mean He was a GOD at all. That was Just the ignorant reasoning of the Pharisees, try to Get Jesus to blasphemy by saying He was a GOD, so they could accuse of and put him to death. All the PHARISEES knew they were to have “NO” God, but “ONE”. we should also know that. Common sense tells us, that if that were the case, then Jesus would have responded by simply saying , YES, He WAS INDEED A GOD, but HE did not, WHY? Because he was not saying he was a God of any kind.

Kerwin don't fall into the false reasoning of these false teachers here, they will get you into their deceptive web if you are not careful. Go and read what Jeff Benner says the word GOD Means, and think about the “TWO” MEANINGS of the WORD GIVEN in the ORIGINAL PICTORIAL HEBREW LANGUAGE, which describes GOD, and remember if these two criteria's are not meant then it not a GOD at all.

peace and love to you and yours………………………………..gene

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 06 2014,07:50)

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 05 2014,15:01) Mike, The reason I hypothesize that some believe Psalms 82 is speaking of human judges is verse 8 which goes. Psalm 82:8 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV) 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations. Angels are not the ones that will inherit all nations.  The saints will.   Remember this, from the first NETNotes info I posted here: The psalmist pictures God standing in the “assembly of El” where he accuses the “gods” of failing to promote justice on earth. God pronounces sentence upon them, announcing that they will die like men. Having witnessed the scene, the psalmist then asks God to establish his just rule over the earth. In verse 8, the psalmist is asking JEHOVAH to judge the earth.  The “God” in verse 8 is JEHOVAH, Kerwin.

Mike,

The Trinitarian translators in general seem to believe the elohim spoken of in verse 8 is their triune God but Paul states the same thing about the saints who Scripture elsewhere teaches us will inherit the new earth. His words also reveal he believed that the Corinthians should already know this which would be explained if he held that fact is already written in Scripture.

You also have verse 2 which is accusing the gods of judging unjustly.

Psalm 82:2
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

2 How long will ye judge unjustly,
and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

He is speaking of the same gods in verse 8.

[kerwin]

Gene,

Quote

Kerwin………The reason Jesus used that scripture was to make a point, that if scripture says they (the pharisees) themselves  “Belonged” to GOD in a possessive sense then,  Why were they upset with Jesus when he said , he was God's Son then.

They lacked understanding as their decedents even admit they were mistaken in their interpretations.  Psalms 45 is known to be written for a king on the day he married a foreign woman.  The king is called O God.  The verse is considered controversial but it is also quoted as God by the writer of Hebrews.  I used wikipedia article on Psalms 45 to obtain some of the information I used.

God is not a reserved word.  Jesus is greater that those scripture calls gods and so he can be called God.  God is still greater.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 06 2014,15:38)

Psalm 82:2 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV) 2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. He is speaking of the same gods in verse 8.

Not at all.

The words in red are God's words, and the words in blue are the psalmist's own words:

82
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

The part in red is the judgment God gave to these other gods……… the judgment mentioned by the psalmist in verse 1.  The psalmist is recounting for us what words of judgment God used against those other gods.

The last verse is a personal note from the psalmist, asking God Almighty Himself to judge the earth – perhaps with an implied meaning of, “instead of allowing these other corrupt gods to keep doing it”.

The way you understand it, Jehovah first slams all these gods for doing bad, and then immediately REWARDS them by saying, Even though you sucked so bad at the job I gave you to do – to the point you're now going to die – don't worry. Rise up and judge the earth…… because I'm going to give all the nations to you anyway!

That doesn't make sense, does it?

[mikeboll64]

Here's the NIV translation. Pay attention to the quotation marks:

Psalm 82

A psalm of Asaph.

1
God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the gods:

2
“How long will you defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?

3
Defend the weak and the fatherless;
uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.

4
Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.

5
“The gods know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6
“I said, ‘You are gods;
you are all sons of the Most High.’

7
But you will die like mere mortals;
you will fall like every other ruler.”

8
Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.

Compare their quotations to my color-coded KJV translation. Apparently, the 100+ scholars who produced the NIV understand it the same way.

I imagine that most English Bibles use the quotation marks the same way as the NIV scholars did.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 07 2014,09:02)

Gene, Quote Kerwin………The reason Jesus used that scripture was to make a point, that if scripture says they (the pharisees) themselves  “Belonged” to GOD in a possessive sense then,  Why were they upset with Jesus when he said , he was God's Son then. They lacked understanding as their decedents even admit they were mistaken in their interpretations.  Psalms 45 is known to be written for a king on the day he married a foreign woman.  The king is called O God.  The verse is considered controversial but it is also quoted as God by the writer of Hebrews.  I used wikipedia article on Psalms 45 to obtain some of the information I used. God is not a reserved word.  Jesus is greater that those scripture calls gods and so he can be called God.  God is still greater.

Kerwin……… Yes GOD is a RESERVIEd WORD (FOR US THAT IS), You are throwing out all the others scriptures that go against those concepts for (US) as if they are not in the scriptures.

“OUR” God said he “ALONE and BY HIMSELF CREATED everything. He also said He looked for other GODS and FOUND NONE> Jesus said to him thou are the “ONLY” “TRUE” GOD. and also 1 Cor 8:4…> “we know that there are no idols in the world and that there is “NO” God, but ONE”>

Your getting caught into Mike Big God, little god, game, if you would just go and read Jeff Benners depiction of the original Hebrew Pictorial wording for the Word GOD, you would find that, that word is not a person it is a “PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP”   The original word for God was depicted as this , A Ox head = Power with a Sheppard's Staff leaning next to it. Which mean what you lean on for SUPPORT.  If both these meanings are not uses in the word God , then you simply have no God. Now having said that , anything can qualify to be a God , Money, you car, your leaders , even idols made out of wood, stone , or Iron. can be “YOUR” God. But in order for it to be a God it must meet those two Criteria”s .

The word God is a relative term it only applies to you “personally  in other word, for it to be a “TRUE” God.  They question not other GOD'S is not are they “little god's” or BIG GOD'S , but are they GOD to “YOU”. Why because the word God can ONLY APPLY TO YOU ALONE even IF others Have all kind of other  SO-CALLED GOD they believe in> I say so called because to me (and all true believers) they are no GOD'S at all.

Issac Newton also came to that same conclusion in His general Scholium.  He maintains the the word God is only applied to the terms , my God , your God, his God , their God, the God of this, or the God of that. The term God is never a Person or Object it is the “RELATION WITH A PERSON or OBJECT”  So anything can be a God if it meets those requirements of the word God itself even an ant can be a God to someone.  But to all True “BELIEVERS” that word can “ONLY” be APPLIED to ONE and ONLY ONE GOD to them. Anything else is breaking of the First commandment,  “YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GOD BESIDES ME”. Kerwin those are not my words, but the words of the LORD “YAHWEH” “OUR GOD”.

Mike needs you to believe him because he want to Make John 1: 1 to say Jesus is (A) GOD, when in fact Jesus is not a TRUE GOD of any Kind and he never said he was either, Why? because that would have been an  IDOLATROUS  ACT by him. Jesus only recognized “ONE” TRUE GOD, and it is the Same for Us.  

peace and love to you and yours………………………gene

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 06 2014,01:45)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 05 2014,09:21) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 05 2014,09:09) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 05 2014,06:53) K wrong analogy; see it this way ;my father lives in Europe and now i say father give me back my room i had BEFORE I LEFT , THIS IS MORE IN LINE WITH WHAT WE DISCUSS RIGHT T, It sounds like you are referring to a room as being a person's because he occupies it.  So how do you think that relates to the glory Jesus had with God before the world began? K Like Christ. HAD BEFORE T, That does not tell me anything.  I have no idea what definition of glory you are using.

k

no ,kerwin, the room is the glory from the son ,now look and understand it

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 07 2014,23:05)

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 07 2014,09:02) Gene, Quote Kerwin………The reason Jesus used that scripture was to make a point, that if scripture says they (the pharisees) themselves  “Belonged” to GOD in a possessive sense then,  Why were they upset with Jesus when he said , he was God's Son then. They lacked understanding as their decedents even admit they were mistaken in their interpretations.  Psalms 45 is known to be written for a king on the day he married a foreign woman.  The king is called O God.  The verse is considered controversial but it is also quoted as God by the writer of Hebrews.  I used wikipedia article on Psalms 45 to obtain some of the information I used. God is not a reserved word.  Jesus is greater that those scripture calls gods and so he can be called God.  God is still greater. Kerwin……… Yes GOD is a RESERVIEd WORD (FOR US THAT IS), You are throwing out all the others scriptures that go against those concepts  for (US) as if they are not in the scriptures. “OUR” God said he “ALONE and BY HIMSELF CREATED everything. He also said He looked for other GODS and FOUND NONE> Jesus said to him thou are the “ONLY” “TRUE” GOD. and also 1 Cor 8:4…>   “we know that there are no idols in the world and that there is “NO” God, but ONE”> Your getting caught into Mike Big God, little god, game, if you would just go and read Jeff Benners depiction of the original Hebrew Pictorial wording for the Word GOD, you would find that, that word is not a person it is a “PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP”   The original word for God was depicted as this , A Ox head = Power with a Sheppard's Staff leaning next to it. Which mean what you lean on for SUPPORT.  If both these meanings are not uses in the word God , then you simply have no God. Now having said that , anything can qualify to be a God , Money, you car, your leaders , even idols made out of wood, stone , or Iron. can be “YOUR” God. But in order for it to be a God it must meet those two Criteria”s . The word God is a relative term it only applies to you “personally  in other word, for it to be a “TRUE” God.  They question not other GOD'S is not are they “little god's” or BIG GOD'S , but are they GOD to “YOU”. Why because the word God can ONLY APPLY TO YOU ALONE even IF others Have all kind of other  SO-CALLED GOD they believe in> I say so called because to me (and all true believers) they are no GOD'S at all. Issac Newton also came to that same conclusion in His general Scholium.  He maintains the the word God is only applied to the terms , my God , your God, his God , their God, the God of this, or the God of that. The term God is never a Person or Object it is the “RELATION WITH A PERSON or OBJECT”  So anything can be a God if it meets those requirements of the word God itself even an ant can be a God to someone.  But to all True “BELIEVERS” that word can “ONLY” be APPLIED to ONE and ONLY ONE GOD to them. Anything else is breaking of the First commandment,  “YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GOD BESIDES ME”. Kerwin those are not my words, but the words of the LORD “YAHWEH” “OUR GOD”. Mike needs you to believe him because he want to Make John 1: 1 to say Jesus is (A) GOD, when in fact Jesus is not a TRUE GOD of any Kind and he never said he was either, Why? because that would have been an  IDOLATROUS  ACT by him. Jesus only recognized “ONE” TRUE GOD, and it is the Same for Us.   peace and love to you and yours………………………gene

g

Ps 86:8 Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.

and the scripture that says ;GOD IS THE GOD OF GODS

[kerwin]

Gene,

Quote

Kerwin……… Yes GOD is a RESERVIEd WORD (FOR US THAT IS), You are throwing out all the others scriptures that go against those concepts  for (US) as if they are not in the scriptures.

In your mind you are saying of God is only the source of all good things and the only one worthy to be worshiped.   The truth is that even in English it has other meanings.

Mikes argument is that God made angels out of his own body so that they would body of his body.  He requires that or something of the like to support his chosen interpretation of what having the form of God means in relation to Jesus.  That is not my argument.

My argument that the word god means different things in different contexts just many other words.

For example:

Quote

a person who is the object of extreme or uncritical devotion

Like Alfred Hitchcock is to cinema in the eyes of certain film critics the children of Israel were called to be in righteousness in the eyes of God.  In neither case are they gods as God is god.

Note: English definitions of the word god.

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 07 2014,23:49)

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 06 2014,01:45) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 05 2014,09:21) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 05 2014,09:09) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 05 2014,06:53) K wrong analogy; see it this way ;my father lives in Europe and now i say father give me back my room i had BEFORE I LEFT , THIS IS MORE IN LINE WITH WHAT WE DISCUSS RIGHT T, It sounds like you are referring to a room as being a person's because he occupies it.  So how do you think that relates to the glory Jesus had with God before the world began? K Like Christ. HAD BEFORE T, That does not tell me anything.  I have no idea what definition of glory you are using. k no ,kerwin, the room is the glory from the son ,now look and understand it

T,

I still do understand what you mean.

I assume by room you mean the one the man gave up for a time then asked have back. I am not asking about that.

I am asking, what glory you believed Jesus “occupied” before the world began?

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 08 2014,02:01)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 07 2014,23:49) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 06 2014,01:45) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 05 2014,09:21) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 05 2014,09:09) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 05 2014,06:53) K wrong analogy; see it this way ;my father lives in Europe and now i say father give me back my room i had BEFORE I LEFT , THIS IS MORE IN LINE WITH WHAT WE DISCUSS RIGHT T, It sounds like you are referring to a room as being a person's because he occupies it.  So how do you think that relates to the glory Jesus had with God before the world began? K Like Christ. HAD BEFORE T, That does not tell me anything.  I have no idea what definition of glory you are using. k no ,kerwin, the room is the glory from the son ,now look and understand it T, I still do understand what you mean.   I assume by room you mean the one the man gave up for a time then asked have back. I am not asking about that. I am asking, what glory you believed Jesus “occupied” before the world began?

K

OK,

Pr 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Mt 3:17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was (A) God.
Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.

Jn 1:34 I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God.”

THOSE SCRIPTURES SHOWS THAT HE AD SUPREMACY FOR BEING THE VERY FIRST CREATURE BORN /CREATED/BRING FORTH BY GOD HIS FATHER ;IN ONE WAY THE “ELDER” OF THEM ALL ;THIS IS HIS GLORY

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 07 2014,08:24)

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 06 2014,15:38) Psalm 82:2 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV) 2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. He is speaking of the same gods in verse 8. Not at all. The words in red are God's words, and the words in blue are the psalmist's own words: 82 1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. 2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. 3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. 4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. 5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. 7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations. The part in red is the judgment God gave to these other gods……… the judgment mentioned by the psalmist in verse 1.  The psalmist is recounting for us what words of judgment God used against those other gods. The last verse is a personal note from the psalmist, asking God Almighty Himself to judge the earth – perhaps with an implied meaning of, “instead of allowing these other corrupt gods to keep doing it”. The way you understand it, Jehovah first slams all these gods for doing bad, and then immediately REWARDS them by saying, Even though you sucked so bad at the job I gave you to do – to the point you're now going to die – don't worry.  Rise up and judge the earth…… because I'm going to give all the nations to you anyway! That doesn't make sense, does it?

Mike,

God will judge the earth but he already posses all nations of earth in the physical sense. Spiritually he does not.

The saints will judge the earth and the will come to inherit the earth in a physical sense.

Both interpretations of Psalms 82:8 are true.

Tradition says that elohim is translated to God and gods in Psalms 82:1 which I take to mean it could mean either in Psalms 82:8 as well.

Judge is used for both God and gods so that does not help.

It does say “…. fall like one of the princes. Arise, O elohim, ….” with the “fall” and “Arise” possibly being linked.

In short the evidence is to sparse to say which is meant and it is possible that both were giving that God can use words to men more than one thing.

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 08 2014,02:38)

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 08 2014,02:01) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 07 2014,23:49) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 06 2014,01:45) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 05 2014,09:21) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 05 2014,09:09) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 05 2014,06:53) K wrong analogy; see it this way ;my father lives in Europe and now i say father give me back my room i had BEFORE I LEFT , THIS IS MORE IN LINE WITH WHAT WE DISCUSS RIGHT T, It sounds like you are referring to a room as being a person's because he occupies it.  So how do you think that relates to the glory Jesus had with God before the world began? K Like Christ. HAD BEFORE T, That does not tell me anything.  I have no idea what definition of glory you are using. k no ,kerwin, the room is the glory from the son ,now look and understand it T, I still do understand what you mean.   I assume by room you mean the one the man gave up for a time then asked have back. I am not asking about that. I am asking, what glory you believed Jesus “occupied” before the world began? K OK, Pr 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Mt 3:17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was (A) God. Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning. Jn 1:34 I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God.” THOSE SCRIPTURES SHOWS THAT HE AD SUPREMACY FOR BEING THE VERY FIRST CREATURE BORN /CREATED/BRING FORTH BY GOD HIS FATHER ;IN ONE WAY THE “ELDER” OF THEM ALL ;THIS IS HIS GLORY

T,

I cannot read you mind and therefore I can only hypothesis what you see in these passages based on my memory of prior conversations.

Quote

Pr 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Is about God's wisdom.  It is a personification and not an actual being.  Being set up from everlasting means from a time without  beginning.  That contradicts either contradicts your idea that this passage is speaking of Jesus or your claim that Jesus was created.

God's word is born of wisdom and expresses wisdom but it wisdom is not Jesus.  Jesus rules by wisdom.  Jesus personifies God's words and so he also personifies God's wisdom.

[kerwin]

Mike,

About the phrase, “and fall like princes” in Psalms 82. I believe the word “princes” can be translated angels. I also believe is the children of Israel and not angels that are being told if they continue to disobey they will fall like the angels who disobeyed long before. I do not believe angels that were disobeying at the time Psalms 82 was written or afterwards. On the other hand the children of Israel were and still are.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 08 2014,03:06)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 08 2014,02:38) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 08 2014,02:01) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 07 2014,23:49) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 06 2014,01:45) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 05 2014,09:21) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 05 2014,09:09) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 05 2014,06:53) K wrong analogy; see it this way ;my father lives in Europe and now i say father give me back my room i had BEFORE I LEFT , THIS IS MORE IN LINE WITH WHAT WE DISCUSS RIGHT T, It sounds like you are referring to a room as being a person's because he occupies it.  So how do you think that relates to the glory Jesus had with God before the world began? K Like Christ. HAD BEFORE T, That does not tell me anything.  I have no idea what definition of glory you are using. k no ,kerwin, the room is the glory from the son ,now look and understand it T, I still do understand what you mean.   I assume by room you mean the one the man gave up for a time then asked have back. I am not asking about that. I am asking, what glory you believed Jesus “occupied” before the world began? K OK, Pr 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Mt 3:17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was (A) God. Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning. Jn 1:34 I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God.” THOSE SCRIPTURES SHOWS THAT HE AD SUPREMACY FOR BEING THE VERY FIRST CREATURE BORN /CREATED/BRING FORTH BY GOD HIS FATHER ;IN ONE WAY THE “ELDER” OF THEM ALL ;THIS IS HIS GLORY T, I cannot read you mind and therefore I can only hypothesis what you see in these passages based on my memory of prior conversations. Quote Pr 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. Is about God's wisdom.  It is a personification and not an actual being.  Being set up from everlasting means from a time without  beginning.  That contradicts either contradicts your idea that this passage is speaking of Jesus or your claim that Jesus was created. God's word is born of wisdom and expresses wisdom but it wisdom is not Jesus.  Jesus rules by wisdom.  Jesus personifies God's words and so he also personifies God's wisdom.

K

FIRST “THE WORD” HIS NOT WRITTEN OR SPOKEN WORDS FROM ANYONE ,THIS IS SO FARE FROM THE TRUTH THAN BLACK IS FROM WITHE ,NO PERSONIFICATION THIS IS AN INVENTION OF THE DEVIL,

THE WORD” HIS JESUS CHRIST ,THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD ” THE FIRST BORN OVER ALL CREATION ;THIS WILL AND MAKE THE SON OF GOD THE “ELDER “OVER ALL INTELLIGENT CREATURES THAT ARE CREATED INTO THE IMAGE OF GOD ;THIS MEAN “ANGEL AND MEN “

THIS WAS THE SEAT HE WAS OCCUPIED BEFORE THE WORLD BEGINS ,BEFORE CREATION STARTED ,HE WAS THE FIRST ;

SO HE HAD SUPREMACY OVER ANYTHING THAT ADD TO BE DONE IN HEAVEN AT THE REQUEST OF HIS FATHER ,

THIS IS WHY HE WAS THE ONLY ONE THAT COULD SAVE MEN FROM HIS FALLEN CONDITION ,EVEN THOUGH HE AD TO GO THROUGH THE HUMILIATION OF BEING COVERED WITH FLESH ,AND DIE AS A MAN .TO SAVE OTHERS ,

PROV;8;22;31 IS NOT ABOUT WISDOM IT IS ABOUT THE SON OF GOD ;GOD DOES NOT WAIST HIS TIME TO PUT TO WRITTEN WORDS HUMAN FANTASY ;ALL SCRIPTURES ARE ABOUT THE SON AND GOD 'S GLORY

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