What does it mean that Jesus came in the flesh?

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ Dec. 29 2013,23:58)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 29 2013,13:59) Quote (942767 @ Dec. 28 2013,17:52) And so, Mike, you say: Quote That means he WAS HAVING that glory before the world began. And the fact that he uses the Greek word “para” in parallel is even more telling. He is asking to be glorified IN GOD'S PRESENCE (para) with the glory he had IN GOD'S PRESENCE (para) before the world began. And so, according to you, Jesus already had the glory that God's has given him in His presence, at the right hand of God as head of the church, and as a judge over the living and dead, and as the heir of all that God created prior to the fulfillment of his earthly ministry in some pre-existent state? Love in Christ, Marty Not exactly,  Marty.   Jesus was asking for the glory he had in the past, but God gave him an even greater glory than the old one he asked for. Hi Mike: And so, where exactly does it say “that God gave him a greater glory than what he asked? Also, Jesus says this: Quote Jhn 17:22 Jhn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Jhn 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. And so, according to this scripture he has already given me the same glory that he gave to him although I do not at this time have the spiritual body promised in the world to come. Love in Christ, Marty

MARTY

Quote

And so, according to this scripture he has already given me the same glory that he gave to him although I do not at this time have the spiritual body promised in the world to come.

you cannot say that because the end of your tribulation are not over yet and so you can fail the truth and righteousness test of God ,

[kerwin]

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 30 2013,01:27)

John 17:1   These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:  John 17:5   And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self ***with the glory which I had with thee before the world      was***. HE HAD GLORY WITH GOD **BEFORE THE WORLD WAS**. ***HE*** HAD GLORY. THE WORD IS A **HE**. NOT JUST VIBRATIONS OF WORDS SPOKEN BY GOD. wakeup.

Wakeup,

Jesus had glory that was with God before the beginning of the world.
Jesus had not yet been given that glory as he was only then asking to be given it.

[Wakeup]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 30 2013,11:34)

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 30 2013,01:27) John 17:1   These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:  John 17:5   And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self ***with the glory which I had with thee before the world      was***. HE HAD GLORY WITH GOD **BEFORE THE WORLD WAS**. ***HE*** HAD GLORY. THE WORD IS A **HE**. NOT JUST VIBRATIONS OF WORDS SPOKEN BY GOD. wakeup. Wakeup, Jesus had glory that was with God before the beginning of the world. Jesus had not yet been given that glory as he was only then asking to be given it.

Kerwin.

He said that for his apostles to hear.
And for us to know that He had glory with God before the world was.

wakeup.

[kerwin]

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 30 2013,06:50)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 30 2013,11:34) Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 30 2013,01:27) John 17:1   These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:  John 17:5   And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self ***with the glory which I had with thee before the world      was***. HE HAD GLORY WITH GOD **BEFORE THE WORLD WAS**. ***HE*** HAD GLORY. THE WORD IS A **HE**. NOT JUST VIBRATIONS OF WORDS SPOKEN BY GOD. wakeup. Wakeup, Jesus had glory that was with God before the beginning of the world. Jesus had not yet been given that glory as he was only then asking to be given it. Kerwin. He said that for his apostles to hear. And for us to know that He had glory with God before the world was. wakeup.

Wakeup,

He said that because he was asking God for his glory that God had already prepared for him before the word began. It teaches us that he was foreknown to receive that glory.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 30 2013,06:34)

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 30 2013,01:27) John 17:1   These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:  John 17:5   And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self ***with the glory which I had with thee before the world      was***. HE HAD GLORY WITH GOD **BEFORE THE WORLD WAS**. ***HE*** HAD GLORY. THE WORD IS A **HE**. NOT JUST VIBRATIONS OF WORDS SPOKEN BY GOD. wakeup. Wakeup, Jesus had glory that was with God before the beginning of the world. Jesus had not yet been given that glory as he was only then asking to be given it.

K

TAKE A LOT OF EXPLANATION TO MAKE A TRUTH OF GOD FALSE IS N IT

[Wakeup]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 30 2013,11:58)

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 30 2013,06:50) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 30 2013,11:34) Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 30 2013,01:27) John 17:1   These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:  John 17:5   And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self ***with the glory which I had with thee before the world      was***. HE HAD GLORY WITH GOD **BEFORE THE WORLD WAS**. ***HE*** HAD GLORY. THE WORD IS A **HE**. NOT JUST VIBRATIONS OF WORDS SPOKEN BY GOD. wakeup. Wakeup, Jesus had glory that was with God before the beginning of the world. Jesus had not yet been given that glory as he was only then asking to be given it. Kerwin. He said that for his apostles to hear. And for us to know that He had glory with God before the world was. wakeup. Wakeup, He said that because he was asking God for his glory that God had already prepared for him before the word began.  It teaches us that he was foreknown to receive that glory.

Kerwin.

No: He said that he **HAD** glory before the world was.

He does not usually speak out loud to his Father.

John 11:41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.

John 11:42 ***And I knew that thou hearest me
always***:
***but because of the people which stand by I said it***,
***that they may believe that thou hast sent me***.

HE SAID IT OUT LOUD FOR THE PEOPLE TO HEAR.
FOR A WITNESS.

wakeup.

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 30 2013,09:31)

Quote (942767 @ Dec. 29 2013,23:58) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 29 2013,13:59) Quote (942767 @ Dec. 28 2013,17:52) And so, Mike, you say: Quote That means he WAS HAVING that glory before the world began. And the fact that he uses the Greek word “para” in parallel is even more telling. He is asking to be glorified IN GOD'S PRESENCE (para) with the glory he had IN GOD'S PRESENCE (para) before the world began. And so, according to you, Jesus already had the glory that God's has given him in His presence, at the right hand of God as head of the church, and as a judge over the living and dead, and as the heir of all that God created prior to the fulfillment of his earthly ministry in some pre-existent state? Love in Christ, Marty Not exactly,  Marty.   Jesus was asking for the glory he had in the past, but God gave him an even greater glory than the old one he asked for. Hi Mike: And so, where exactly does it say “that God gave him a greater glory than what he asked? Also, Jesus says this: Quote Jhn 17:22 Jhn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Jhn 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. And so, according to this scripture he has already given me the same glory that he gave to him although I do not at this time have the spiritual body promised in the world to come. Love in Christ, Marty MARTY Quote And so, according to this scripture he has already given me the same glory that he gave to him although I do not at this time have the spiritual body promised in the world to come. you cannot say that because the end of your tribulation are not over yet and so you can fail the truth and righteousness test of God ,

Yes, Pierre, I can say that by “faith”. “I believe” what God has promised me will surely come to pass, and “I believe” that he will see me through whatever tribulation I may have to go through.

But this is just your way of diverting the focus to something other that the subject at hand.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 28 2013,23:44)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 29 2013,08:09) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 28 2013,12:56) Mike, Quote 1 Peter 1:4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, Does Peter believe we already HAVE that inheritance of “praise, glory and honor” (verse 7)?  Or is this inheritance being KEPT for us in heaven? The situation is if the inheritance is already the heirs or if it is not yet the heirs.  If we were talking that about humans who are not all knowing keeping it then the later would apply but with God who is all knowing the earlier applies. And was Jesus a human being when he said those words?   Or was Jesus the “all knowing God”? Mike, I speaking of the ones that keep the inheritance not the ones whose inheritance it is.

What you're trying to say, (and have been saying for a long time) is that in GOD'S eyes, Jesus already HAD that glory, since God is all knowing, and can see the end from the beginning.

But you are putting the words in GOD'S mouth, Kerwin. You are pretending that GOD was speaking about a glory HE knew Jesus “had” from the beginning of time, because GOD already knew he was someday GOING TO have it.

And that's fine………. IF it was GOD who was doing the speaking. But instead, it was the human being JESUS who spoke about a glory HE WAS HAVING. And the human being JESUS is not all knowing, and therefore could not have spoken about a glory HE WAS HAVING before the world began…….. unless he actually HAD that glory before the world began.

The quote from 1 Peter 1:4 should be enough to finish this thing, Kerwin. Because Peter makes it clear that, for most of us, this inherited glory is NOT something we've already HAD – but something that IS KEPT in heaven for us.

In the case of Jesus, it was different though. This glory wasn't just KEPT IN HEAVEN for him. Instead, it was a glory that he actually WAS HAVING before the world began.

At the very least, you and Gene and Marty should all be able to see how you have to scurry about twisting words and offering fancy rationalizations to prohibit the words Jesus said from meaning exactly what he said.

And if you have to do all that scampering about to CHANGE the most logical and common meaning of those words Jesus spoke, it should send up a red flag for you. It should make you think: Boy, we sure have to do a lot of scurrying and scampering to make this one come out the way we want it to. Hmmmmm…………. maybe we're WRONG about it.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 28 2013,23:46)

Mike, They will die like mere men.

As opposed to what?  Were they ever anything EXCEPT men?  Did they ever have a thought that they WOULDN'T die like the men that they were?  

Show me the scripture where any member of the nation of Israel thought that they would NOT die like all men die.

David, Samuel, and even the super-wise Solomon knew the fate they would someday suffer as men, right?  Even Moses, the man of God, knew that he would someday “lay down with his fathers”, right?

So tell me what sense it would make for God to tell men, who already knew they would eventually die like men, that they WOULD die like men.

Psalms 82:7 NET ©
Yet you will die like mortals……..

NRSV ©
nevertheless, you shall die like mortals……..

For the word “mortals”, NETNotes says:

Heb “men”  The point in the context is mortality, however, not maleness.

For the concept of a god losing immortality and dying, see Isa 14:12-15, which alludes to a pagan myth in which the petty god “Shining One, son of the Dawn,” is hurled into Sheol for his hubris.

[GeneBalthrop]

Wakeup………Can we also say King Cyrus had the Glory given him with God before his berth on this earth, seeing He was promised by God to come into existence 200 years before he was born as His servant, Did he also preexist? No only in the Planned will of God , the same thing applies to Jesus a Son of MAN, who was prophesied to come into existence through the loins of King David of tribe of Judah, Just as God told Moses he would come from. God never said Jesus was a preexisting Being who he would Morph into a human being not so much as one word saying that. If you have one scripture that shows this process you and other insist on, then produce it. We can produce many scriptures that Show He was a Human being coming from mankind from human roots. Just as King Cyrus was a human being who came into existence through human kind.

peace and love to you and yours…………………………………..gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 28 2013,13:40)

Mike, Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Verse 1:  When did God ever preside in a huge assembly of human god prophets, and pass judgment on them? I do not believe God is speaking to the prophets who merely convey his word.  He was speaking to the children of Israel who received his word as their law.   He always presides over the assembly of humans and he always judges their hearts.  That is why we are under the Wrath of God.

Okay.  When in scripture did God assemble together with the entire nation of Israel, and render upon them judgments for their lack of defending the fatherless, poor, and oppressed?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 28 2013,23:50)

The message was given to Gabriel to deliver to Daniel and perhaps others. If you wish to call the message the word then Gabriel was given the word to deliver to David who wrote it down.

The Hebrew says “word”. So yes, I consider the message God gave to Gabriel the “word of God” coming to Gabriel, who then gave that “word” to Daniel, who then wrote it down.

And since the Greek word in Revelation 1:2 is “logos”, I also consider the message of John's revelation to be the “word”of God”, which came first to Jesus, then to one of Jesus' angels, then to John, who then wrote it down.

Kerwin, I want to know if you think the angels of God already know EVERYTHING that God knows…….. to the point that the word of God doesn't ever have to come to angels.

IS THAT WHAT YOU BELIEVE? YES or NO?

If not, then the word/message/instruction/command of God HAS TO, at some point, come to God's angels.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 29 2013,08:23)

Mike…….Come on, that is exactly what you are saying , You believe Jesus was asking for that Glory that he already was having, as a preexistence Sentinel being returned to him. So why do you say “not exactly” then.

I believe I explained that, Gene.  Jesus was asking to have a past glory restored to him.  That much is ABUNDANTLY CLEAR from the words Jesus said in 17:5.

But later in scripture, we find out that God exalted him even HIGHER, giving him the name above all names, and placing him in the highest position there is:  at the right hand of God Himself.

We find out that he became even more superior to the other angels, as the name he inherited was more superior than theirs.

Jesus was asking for the return of the “high” name he had before the world began. And God ended up giving him the HIGHEST name.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 31 2013,02:52)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 29 2013,08:23) Mike…….Come on, that is exactly what you are saying , You believe Jesus was asking for that Glory that he already was having, as a preexistence Sentinel being returned to him. So why do you say “not exactly” then. I believe I explained that, Gene.  Jesus was asking to have a past glory restored to him.  That much is ABUNDANTLY CLEAR from the words Jesus said in 17:5. But later in scripture, we find out that God exalted him even HIGHER, giving him the name above all names, and placing him in the highest position there is:  at the right hand of God Himself. We find out that he became even more superior to the other angels, as the name he inherited was more superior than theirs. Jesus was asking for the return of the “high” name he had before the world began.  And God ended up giving him the HIGHEST name.

Mike……….Jesus became what was written in Scriptures and that Glory was also written there before he ever acquired it, Can't you see that? Why would he ask for a past glory when what he was about to receive was far Superior. Jesus full well know what scripture said concerning Him and make no sense for him to ask for a lesser glory then what he was just about to receive, Right?

Lets be honest here, you are using your rendition of this issue ,to try to prove a past existence of Jesus, Just as you use John 1:1 to try to prove Jesus was a God and also preexisted.

All the same time failing to understand God is not concerned with some “past” beings existence , but with Mankind his crown Jewel of creation and it is God's perfection of mankind that was always in the forefront, from the foundation of the earth it was and is his main concern.

It was the first man Adam that sinned and he took another man “JESUS” from “MANKIND” and resolved the problem,  a perfected Man  (not some Morphed being) to be a Model for all his Human creation. Jesus was and is the finished product of God plan for mankind. Therefore in the sense he can be said to be the the first to come to perfection and the last will be just like him, hence the term, “I AM THE FIRST and THE LAST”. The last man to enter into the kingdom of God will be just like the First man Jesus the Christ. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ Dec. 29 2013,11:58)

Hi Mike: And so, where exactly does it say “that God gave him a greater glory than what he asked?

Read my previous post to Gene for the answer.

Quote (942767 @ Dec. 29 2013,11:58)

And so, according to this scripture he has already given me the same glory that he gave to him although I do not at this time have the spiritual body promised in the world to come.

Jesus dwelled on earth with a particular glory, agreed?  It is THAT glory that Jesus passed on to his apostles.  He obviously did not pass on HEAVENLY glory to them, since they remained on earth.  

Read verse 24 that you quoted for that answer, Marty.  If Jesus was talking about the same kind of glory in verse 22 that he was talking about in verses 5 and 24, there would be no need for Jesus to hope they can be where he is, and behold that HEAVENLY glory.

Understand?  The apostles wouldn't have to go anywhere to behold his EARTHLY glory.  So he was APPARENTLY not talking about his EARTHLY glory in verse 5 and 24, right?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 29 2013,13:27)

HE HAD GLORY WITH GOD **BEFORE THE WORLD WAS**. ***HE*** HAD GLORY.

That's right, Wakeup.

Let me use your style to point out all of the important things in verse 5:

***HE***

***HAD***

glory

***IN GOD'S PRESENCE***

***BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN***

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 29 2013,18:34)

Wakeup, Jesus had glory that was with God before the beginning of the world. Jesus had not yet been given that glory as he was only then asking to be given it.

This is what I meant by “scurrying” and “scampering”, Kerwin.

Your first sentence speaks about a glory Jesus HAD, but then you scurry, scamper, and rationalize to the point that your second sentence actually DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS your first one.

Look at your words:

1. Jesus had glory……..

2. Jesus had not yet been given that glory………

He either HAD it, or he DIDN'T.

He says he HAD it, and so I believe HIM – not you.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 29 2013,18:58)

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 30 2013,06:50) ……..He had glory with God before the world was. Wakeup, …..he was asking God for his glory that God had already prepared for him before the word began.   ……….he was foreknown to receive that glory.

It's easy to see that Wakeup, in this case, is understanding Jesus' words in the most logical and sensible way they could be taken.

And Kerwin, on the other hand, has completely TWISTED the meaning of the words Jesus actually said, by adding his own words and rationalizations into the words Jesus actually spoke.

Kerwin, Jesus did NOT say the words, “the glory I was foreknown to receive”.  Nor did he say the words, “the glory you had already prepared for me“.

You scurry, scamper, twist, and imagine these other words INTO the words Jesus actually spoke.  That is bad business for anyone seeking the TRUTH of the scriptures.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 30 2013,09:34)

God never said Jesus was a preexisting Being who he would Morph into a human being not so much as one word saying that.

The scriptures are LOADED with many such words, Gene. You just refuse to believe ALL OF THEM.

As for Cyrus, “NO”, he could not speak from his own human point of view about a glory he had 400 years earlier.

He could not, upon his 16th birthday or whatever, ask God to give him the glory HE HAD 400 years ago. Because he hadn't yet been alive to HAVE that glory 400 years ago.

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 31 2013,03:22)

Quote (942767 @ Dec. 29 2013,11:58) Hi Mike: And so, where exactly does it say “that God gave him a greater glory than what he asked? Read my previous post to Gene for the answer. Quote (942767 @ Dec. 29 2013,11:58) And so, according to this scripture he has already given me the same glory that he gave to him although I do not at this time have the spiritual body promised in the world to come. Jesus dwelled on earth with a particular glory, agreed?  It is THAT glory that Jesus passed on to his apostles.  He obviously did not pass on HEAVENLY glory to them, since they remained on earth.   Read verse 24 that you quoted for that answer, Marty.  If Jesus was talking about the same kind of glory in verse 22 that he was talking about in verses 5 and 24, there would be no need for Jesus to hope they can be where he is, and behold that HEAVENLY glory. Understand?  The apostles wouldn't have to go anywhere to behold his EARTHLY glory.  So he was APPARENTLY not talking about his EARTHLY glory in verse 5 and 24, right?

No, Mike, I have what he has promised me by faith, and it is the same principle that he used in stating:

Quote

Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

And, you have not shown me where the scriptures state that God gave him more glory than he asked?

Love in Christ,
Marty

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