What does it mean that Jesus came in the flesh?

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 28 2013,22:36)

k this is a allegory ,the truth of it is hidden from  you it seems

T,

It is an example of the culture of the time as regards inheritance. I was not using it for anything else. It seems you failed to understand how I used it.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 29 2013,01:06)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 28 2013,22:36) k this is a allegory ,the truth of it is hidden from  you it seems T, It is an example of the culture of the time as regards inheritance.  I was not using it for anything else.  It seems you failed to understand how I used it.

k

an allegory is something that is true in all generation and in all cultures ,

but the understanding may vary to each individual person or group ,or culture

but the ultimate truth of the allegory stands in the scriptures the words of God ;

but you fail to see that ,or understand it –

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 29 2013,01:06)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 28 2013,22:36) k this is a allegory ,the truth of it is hidden from  you it seems T, It is an example of the culture of the time as regards inheritance.  I was not using it for anything else.  It seems you failed to understand how I used it.

k

it is not because someone uses a scripture in his explanation that all of his points are godly truth ,

this is what i am concern with ;quotes of scriptures attached to comments that have nothing to do with the subject in the biblical quote ,but use it as a try to confirm the comment

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 28 2013,23:41)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 27 2013,13:27) Though it never states the word of the Lord came to any angel in Scripture……… Are you blind, Kerwin?  Or just being willfully ignorant, as is your norm? Daniel 9:23 NRSV © At the beginning of your supplications a word went out, and I have come to declare it, for you are greatly beloved. So consider the word and understand the vision: Kerwin, who did the “word” come out from? Could Gabriel have acted on his own, without first receiving that “word” from God? You act as if God doesn't have to instruct His angels about anything, because whatever God knows, they also know.  Is that what you believe?  If not, then God DOES give commands and instructions to His angels, right?  And if that is the case, the “word of God” DOES come to angels, right?

Mike,

It does not say the word of God came to Gabriel.  So does the phrase “a word went out” mean the same as “the word came to” and the answer is no.  That would be more like a message sent to a number of people and Gabriel is the one chosen to deliver it to Daniel.  On the other hand when the word comes to a prophet it means that he is speaking God's word and not his own.

Daniel 9:25
New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

25 Know therefore and understand: from the time that the word went out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the time of an anointed prince, there shall be seven weeks; and for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with streets and moat, but in a troubled time.

I already conceded that angels, being messengers, speaks God's word and not their own on those occasions the convey a message that originated with God.  My point is it is never mentioned in Scripture.  It is only humans that it is mentioned with.

[kerwin]

Mike,

Quote

Verse 1:  When did God ever preside in a huge assembly of human god prophets, and pass judgment on them?

I do not believe God is speaking to the prophets who merely convey his word.  He was speaking to the children of Israel who received his word as their law.  

He always presides over the assembly of humans and he always judges their hearts.  That is why we are under the Wrath of God.

The disobedient angels disobeyed long before the Psalms was written. Why would God be addressing angels in a book meant for humans and written by a human carried along by the spirit instead of more directly?  As far as I know it would be a first for humans ministering to angels.

[942767]

And so, Mike, you say:

Quote

That means he WAS HAVING that glory before the world began. And the fact that he uses the Greek word “para” in parallel is even more telling. He is asking to be glorified IN GOD'S PRESENCE (para) with the glory he had IN GOD'S PRESENCE (para) before the world began.

And so, according to you, Jesus already had the glory that God's has given him in His presence, at the right hand of God as head of the church, and as a judge over the living and dead, and as the heir of all that God created prior to the fulfillment of his earthly ministry in some pre-existent state?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ Dec. 29 2013,05:52)

And so, Mike, you say: Quote That means he WAS HAVING that glory before the world began. And the fact that he uses the Greek word “para” in parallel is even more telling. He is asking to be glorified IN GOD'S PRESENCE (para) with the glory he had IN GOD'S PRESENCE (para) before the world began. And so, according to you, Jesus already had the glory that God's has given him in His presence, at the right hand of God as head of the church, and as a judge over the living and dead, and as the heir of all that God created prior to the fulfillment of his earthly ministry in some pre-existent state? Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

You overloading ,he could not have gain the supremacy before his resurrection but that his not what Jesus claims before his dead ,

Or is that what you think Mike claims

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 29 2013,11:32)

Quote (942767 @ Dec. 29 2013,05:52) And so, Mike, you say: Quote That means he WAS HAVING that glory before the world began. And the fact that he uses the Greek word “para” in parallel is even more telling. He is asking to be glorified IN GOD'S PRESENCE (para) with the glory he had IN GOD'S PRESENCE (para) before the world began. And so, according to you, Jesus already had the glory that God's has given him in His presence, at the right hand of God as head of the church, and as a judge over the living and dead, and as the heir of all that God created prior to the fulfillment of his earthly ministry in some pre-existent state? Love in Christ, Marty Marty You overloading ,he could not have gain the supremacy before his resurrection but that his not what Jesus claims before his dead , Or is that what you think Mike claims

And so, what does he claim?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 28 2013,12:49)

All I know is that God knew Jesus before the beginning of the world and had his glory ready for the time when Jesus would receive it.

Look at your own words, Kerwin. “WHEN Jesus WOULD receive it”.

In your mind, the glory was with God the whole time, and Jesus never actually HAD the glory before the world began.

But Jesus said, “the glory I WAS HAVING”.

You have lost this one, and there's nothing more to say about it.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 28 2013,12:56)

Mike, Quote 1 Peter 1:4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, Does Peter believe we already HAVE that inheritance of “praise, glory and honor” (verse 7)?  Or is this inheritance being KEPT for us in heaven? The situation is if the inheritance is already the heirs or if it is not yet the heirs.  If we were talking that about humans who are not all knowing keeping it then the later would apply but with God who is all knowing the earlier applies.

And was Jesus a human being when he said those words? Or was Jesus the “all knowing God”?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 28 2013,13:04)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 28 2013,23:47) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 27 2013,13:38) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 27 2013,23:43) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 26 2013,00:38) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 26 2013,03:47) Interesting.   What about John 17:24?  It is part of the same passage.  Where do you think Jesus wants them be with him – so they can see that glory God has given him?  In God's presence in heaven?  Or on earth, away from God? Mike, Jesus is talking of the believers in general by that point as he switched to them in verse 20.  He is also talking about believers being in him and he in them.  I am prone to think he is asking that believers be with him spiritually. John 17 13 “I am coming to you now…………. 24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. You are being willfully ignorant, Kerwin. Mike, You are skipping a lot of content to connect those two. Oh brother!  May God have mercy on your argumentative soul, Kerwin. Okay.  Why don't YOU just tell us what Jesus meant when he said, “And now Father, glorify me WITH YOU…..”. Remember that Jesus knew he was about to go back to the Father when he said those words. So tell us what the “WITH YOU” part meant. Mike, I already did but you chose to omit it. Here is my words: Quote “I am” is probably continuous as with “I am with you always”.  I have not bothered to confirm that as Jesus states “I in them” and “they also may be one in us”. My references are John 17:20-24 and Matthew 28:16-20.

Read it again. I want to know what the words “WITH YOU” mean in 17:5.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 28 2013,13:31)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 28 2013,23:41) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 27 2013,13:27) Though it never states the word of the Lord came to any angel in Scripture……… Are you blind, Kerwin?  Or just being willfully ignorant, as is your norm? Daniel 9:23 NRSV © At the beginning of your supplications a word went out, and I have come to declare it, for you are greatly beloved. So consider the word and understand the vision: Kerwin, who did the “word” come out from? Could Gabriel have acted on his own, without first receiving that “word” from God? You act as if God doesn't have to instruct His angels about anything, because whatever God knows, they also know.  Is that what you believe?  If not, then God DOES give commands and instructions to His angels, right?  And if that is the case, the “word of God” DOES come to angels, right? Mike, It does not say the word of God came to Gabriel.  So does the phrase “a word went out” mean the same as “the word came to” and the answer is no.  That would be more like a message sent to a number of people and Gabriel is the one chosen to deliver it to Daniel.  On the other hand when the word comes to a prophet it means that he is speaking God's word and not his own. Daniel 9:25 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) 25 Know therefore and understand: from the time that the word went out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the time of an anointed prince, there shall be seven weeks; and for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with streets and moat, but in a troubled time. I already conceded that angels, being messengers, speaks God's word and not their own on those occasions the convey a message that originated with God.  My point is it is never mentioned in Scripture.  It is only humans that it is mentioned with.

Kerwin,

I have asked three bolded questions in that post. Please answer all three of them….. especially the last one.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ Dec. 28 2013,17:52)

And so, Mike, you say: Quote That means he WAS HAVING that glory before the world began. And the fact that he uses the Greek word “para” in parallel is even more telling. He is asking to be glorified IN GOD'S PRESENCE (para) with the glory he had IN GOD'S PRESENCE (para) before the world began. And so, according to you, Jesus already had the glory that God's has given him in His presence, at the right hand of God as head of the church, and as a judge over the living and dead, and as the heir of all that God created prior to the fulfillment of his earthly ministry in some pre-existent state? Love in Christ, Marty

Not exactly, Marty. Jesus was asking for the glory he had in the past, but God gave him an even greater glory than the old one he asked for.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 28 2013,13:40)

Mike, Quote Verse 1:  When did God ever preside in a huge assembly of human god prophets, and pass judgment on them? I do not believe God is speaking to the prophets who merely convey his word.  He was speaking to the children of Israel who received his word as their law.   He always presides over the assembly of humans and he always judges their hearts.  That is why we are under the Wrath of God. The disobedient angels disobeyed long before the Psalms was written. Why would God be addressing angels in a book meant for humans and written by a human carried along by the spirit instead of more directly?  As far as I know it would be a first for humans ministering to angels.

Kerwin,

I'll try to get to this one tomorrow. In the meantime, try to answer the other question about telling men they will die like men.

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 29 2013,08:09)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 28 2013,12:56) Mike, Quote 1 Peter 1:4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, Does Peter believe we already HAVE that inheritance of “praise, glory and honor” (verse 7)?  Or is this inheritance being KEPT for us in heaven? The situation is if the inheritance is already the heirs or if it is not yet the heirs.  If we were talking that about humans who are not all knowing keeping it then the later would apply but with God who is all knowing the earlier applies. And was Jesus a human being when he said those words?   Or was Jesus the “all knowing God”?

Mike,

I speaking of the ones that keep the inheritance not the ones whose inheritance it is.

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 29 2013,09:01)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 28 2013,13:40) Mike, Quote Verse 1:  When did God ever preside in a huge assembly of human god prophets, and pass judgment on them? I do not believe God is speaking to the prophets who merely convey his word.  He was speaking to the children of Israel who received his word as their law.   He always presides over the assembly of humans and he always judges their hearts.  That is why we are under the Wrath of God. The disobedient angels disobeyed long before the Psalms was written. Why would God be addressing angels in a book meant for humans and written by a human carried along by the spirit instead of more directly?  As far as I know it would be a first for humans ministering to angels. Kerwin, I'll try to get to this one tomorrow.   In the meantime,  try to answer the other question about telling men they will die like men.

Mike,

They will die like mere men.

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 29 2013,08:54)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 28 2013,13:31) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 28 2013,23:41) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 27 2013,13:27) Though it never states the word of the Lord came to any angel in Scripture……… Are you blind, Kerwin?  Or just being willfully ignorant, as is your norm? Daniel 9:23 NRSV © At the beginning of your supplications a word went out, and I have come to declare it, for you are greatly beloved. So consider the word and understand the vision: Kerwin, who did the “word” come out from? Could Gabriel have acted on his own, without first receiving that “word” from God? You act as if God doesn't have to instruct His angels about anything, because whatever God knows, they also know.  Is that what you believe?  If not, then God DOES give commands and instructions to His angels, right?  And if that is the case, the “word of God” DOES come to angels, right? Mike, It does not say the word of God came to Gabriel.  So does the phrase “a word went out” mean the same as “the word came to” and the answer is no.  That would be more like a message sent to a number of people and Gabriel is the one chosen to deliver it to Daniel.  On the other hand when the word comes to a prophet it means that he is speaking God's word and not his own. Daniel 9:25 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) 25 Know therefore and understand: from the time that the word went out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the time of an anointed prince, there shall be seven weeks; and for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with streets and moat, but in a troubled time. I already conceded that angels, being messengers, speaks God's word and not their own on those occasions the convey a message that originated with God.  My point is it is never mentioned in Scripture.  It is only humans that it is mentioned with. Kerwin, I have asked three bolded questions in that post.  Please answer all three of them….. especially the last one.

Mike,

I answered the question if you understood what I said.

The message was given to Gabriel to deliver to Daniel and perhaps others.  If you wish to call the message the word then Gabriel was given the word to deliver to David who wrote it down.

I believe that God lives in his angels by his Spirit. The words the speak are godly. Sometimes his presence is in an angel. In this case it is Gabriel carrying a message for God. I can speculate how he received it but Scripture seems to reveal God's role as equivalent to a king and Gabriel as equivalent to a king's messenger.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 29 2013,13:59)

Quote (942767 @ Dec. 28 2013,17:52) And so, Mike, you say: Quote That means he WAS HAVING that glory before the world began. And the fact that he uses the Greek word “para” in parallel is even more telling. He is asking to be glorified IN GOD'S PRESENCE (para) with the glory he had IN GOD'S PRESENCE (para) before the world began. And so, according to you, Jesus already had the glory that God's has given him in His presence, at the right hand of God as head of the church, and as a judge over the living and dead, and as the heir of all that God created prior to the fulfillment of his earthly ministry in some pre-existent state? Love in Christ, Marty Not exactly,  Marty.   Jesus was asking for the glory he had in the past, but God gave him an even greater glory than the old one he asked for.

Mike…….Come on, that is exactly what you are saying , You believe Jesus was asking for that Glory that he already was having, as a preexistence Sentinel being returned to him. So why do you say “not exactly” then. You have not one ounce of proof Jesus ever had actually experienced any Glory before his berth on this earth, not so much as a shred of proof.

In fact you have not one once of real scriptural proof, Jesus preexisted his berth on this earth at all. Those are all assumptions of you and all Preexistence's ,and Trinitarians. You have not any proof Jesus is a GOD of any kind either, especially if you understand what the word GOD means. IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 29 2013,13:59)

Quote (942767 @ Dec. 28 2013,17:52) And so, Mike, you say: Quote That means he WAS HAVING that glory before the world began. And the fact that he uses the Greek word “para” in parallel is even more telling. He is asking to be glorified IN GOD'S PRESENCE (para) with the glory he had IN GOD'S PRESENCE (para) before the world began. And so, according to you, Jesus already had the glory that God's has given him in His presence, at the right hand of God as head of the church, and as a judge over the living and dead, and as the heir of all that God created prior to the fulfillment of his earthly ministry in some pre-existent state? Love in Christ, Marty Not exactly,  Marty.   Jesus was asking for the glory he had in the past, but God gave him an even greater glory than the old one he asked for.

Hi Mike:

And so, where exactly does it say “that God gave him a greater glory than what he asked?

Also, Jesus says this:

Quote

Jhn 17:22 Jhn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Jhn 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

And so, according to this scripture he has already given me the same glory that he gave to him although I do not at this time have the spiritual body promised in the world to come.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Wakeup]

John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self
***with the glory which I had with thee before the world
was***.

HE HAD GLORY WITH GOD **BEFORE THE WORLD WAS**.
***HE*** HAD GLORY.
THE WORD IS A **HE**. NOT JUST VIBRATIONS OF WORDS SPOKEN BY GOD.

wakeup.

[Author]

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