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Wakerup……… I can not accept anyone claiming to be God's words, no more then I can accept any being your words. I full well know Jesus spoke GOD”S words to Us, as he was a spokesman for GOD, but remember Jesus himself said, “the words I am telling you are “NOT” my Words, but the word of Him who sent me”, Now consider if the words were God's words, then God and His word are one and the same thing right? That is what John 1:1 is stating God and His word “ARE” one and the same thing. Just as the other scripture I quoted said clearly.
“There are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father , the Word , the holy ghost (spirit) and these three, “ARE” ONE. One and the same that is, Did Jesus not say the “WORDS” I am telling you “ARE SPIRIT” and “ARE LIFE> Those words were not HIS WORDS, he could not lay claim to them not then or now, they belong to OUR ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD. IMO
Go back and look up the text in revelations and you will find that Him being called the word of God can be taken in a Literal sense (as if Jesus was himself is the word or words of God) Or it can be taken in a fugitive sense, Another word Jesus is depicted as the word of God to us because he speaks GOD'S WORDS” to us , Not HIS WORDS, as it would be if He were the Word of God Himself.
Rev 19:11 and 12 really have nothing to do with this, but 13 does , it is written in a “figurative” sense, Jesus represents God to us and speaks GOD'S words to us, “NOT HIS” own words to us, Just as he said while on this earth over and over, So how can this fit what Jesus said?, only if you see it in a “figurative” sense.
Those who Preach Jesus as a GOD see it in a Literally sense, and those who who don't, like me, see it in a “figurative” Sense. Jesus is called the word of God because he speaks God”s words, Not his to us, but is Jesus himself those words he spoke “NO” He is NOT , those word belong to only GOD ALONE, why because they can from GOD ALONE. Jesus or no one else can take credit for GOD”S WORDS or DEEDS, Just as no one else can take credit for your words or deeds but yourself. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………gene
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 22 2013,22:15) K Quote T, Are you trying to say the writing of prophets as they were carried along by the Spirit is the Spirit's testimony?
I say yes to your question,
Lk 24:25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!
Lk 24:26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?”Lk 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
Mt 28:20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
on this lays our faith in Christ and his God our father ;
T,I agree that the prophets testified of Christ as they were carried along by the Spirit.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 21 2013,09:48) Mike……..So i can also say the Glory I had with the Father before the world began right?
You could only say it if you actually HAD glory before the world began, Gene. Did you?Also, don't forget that it is literally, “the glory I WAS HAVING”.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 21 2013,10:09) Mike…….Do you honestly believe Jesus has “NOW” the “SAME” Glory and Power Had before his, berth, death and Resurrection………..
No Gene. I believe Jesus asked to have his former glory returned to him, after he completed his mission on earth. But God gave him an even GREATER glory after he completed his mission, and exalted him to the highest place, and gave him the name above all other names.So Jesus asked for the same old, same old – but God lavished even MORE wonders on him.
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 21 2013,11:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 21 2013,06:02) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2013,22:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 20 2013,06:34) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2013,12:00) Mike, He stated that those who received the word of God were called gods in Scripture. The only ones I know that received the word of God were the children of Israel.
Psalm 82 is about spirit beings, Kerwin……. not men.What sense would it make to tell a MAN that he was going to die like a MAN?
You just need to think things out.
Is that the only scripture you have?
Mike,You mean angels whose bodies are not immaterial.
I'm sorry. Could you point out for me the scripture that says angels were all created with God's word in their inward being, and written on their mind?
Mike,This is what is states of humans.
Jeremiah 31:32-34…………..
Do you believe angels will have less than those that enter the new covenant? I don't.
I don't KNOW the answer to your question, Kerwin. But I KNOW that it doesn't negate the point I was making. Because we both KNOW that God has given INSTRUCTIONS to His angels throughout scripture. And that means “the word of God” DOES come to God's angels.And I believe that was YOUR reason for thinking Psalm 82 was about men – because the word of God doesn't have to come to angels – right?
Daniel 9:23
As soon as you began to pray, a word went out, and I have come to convey it to you, for you are highly esteemed………..Gabriel said those words to Daniel, Kerwin. Gabriel said “a word went out”. Who do you suppose that word went out from? And why did Gabriel not act UNTIL he received that word?
Is that proof enough that angels are also those “to whom the word of God came”? If not, read Revelation 1:1 again.
Now, please address the point I MADE. Does it make sense to tell a MAN that he will someday die like a MAN?
Oh……… and do you have any other scripture in which you think human beings are called gods?
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 21 2013,12:14) Mike, Quote In John 17:5, the word “eichon” is written in the first person singular form……… which in the imperfect tense means, “I kept on having/holding”. In Matthew 27:16, the word “eichon” is written in the third person plural form…….. which in the imperfect tense means, “THEY kept on having/holding”.
So whether you prefer “having” or “holding”, the fact is that JESUS is the one who was having/holding that glory.
The first person singular means “I' according to my testing. Thank your for the correction.
I am still am fine with I had.
You are welcome. Thank YOU for ACCEPTING the correction. This ACCEPTANCE of the truth of the matter seems hard to come by on this site……… so well done.
You say you are good with “I HAD”. Okay. For argument's sake, I can live with “I HAD”.
Now, tell me if there was ever a time someone spoke about something they HAD – when they didn't really ever HAVE that thing before.
Give me an example.
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 21 2013,12:28) Mike, Quote Also consider the parallel use of “with you” in 17:5. “Father, glorify me WITH YOU (in your presence) with the glory I kept on holding/having WITH YOU (in your presence) before the world began.”
If the first “with you” implies that Jesus is ready to finish up on earth, and be glorified in God's presence (as the context clearly teaches), then the parallel use of the same word most likely means the same thing, ie: “in your presence”.
I do not see where you are coming from on this one.
Do you think Jesus is asking to be glorified IN GOD'S PRESENCE when he says, “and now Father, glorify me WITH YOU”?Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 21 2013,19:25) Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 22 2013,08:00) 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. THE FATHER;THE WORD OF GOD;AND THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH.
Hi WakeupGood explanation.
Now he just needs to find an explanation that uses words that are actually IN the scriptures.Those extra words in the KJV version of 1 John 5:7 aren't found in ANY Greek ms before the 14th century. They have been PROVEN to be a later ADDITION to John's words, and are therefore not included in any more recent Bible.
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 23 2013,18:15) Mike, Do you believe the Law of Moses is the word of God?
Yes. But it is not the ONLY thing called “the word of God”, right?Why do you ask?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 24 2013,10:56) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 21 2013,09:48) Mike……..So i can also say the Glory I had with the Father before the world began right?
You could only say it if you actually HAD glory before the world began, Gene. Did you?Also, don't forget that it is literally, “the glory I WAS HAVING”.
Hi Mike:He had that glory by the following principle:
Quote
Rom 4:17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Quote
Jhn 17:24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Dec. 24 2013,08:01) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 24 2013,10:56) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 21 2013,09:48) Mike……..So i can also say the Glory I had with the Father before the world began right?
You could only say it if you actually HAD glory before the world began, Gene. Did you?Also, don't forget that it is literally, “the glory I WAS HAVING”.
Hi Mike:He had that glory by the following principle:
Quote
Rom 4:17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Quote
Jhn 17:24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MARTYthose scriptures are not the principle ;the principle is the heavenly rule of LOVE
mikeboll64,Dec. wrote:[/quote]
Quote Now he just needs to find an explanation that uses words that are actually IN the scriptures. Those extra words in the KJV version of 1 John 5:7 aren't found in ANY Greek ms before the 14th century. They have been PROVEN to be a later ADDITION to John's words, and are therefore not included in any more recent Bible.
Those so called “missing words” are not found in the Alexandrian texts. You have it the wrong way around.If you read this version in NWT, you will only get half the truth
1John 5:7 For there are three witness bearers:
1John 5:8 the spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.So there are only three witness bearers? That's it? The man Jesus Christ, (who came from water and blood) and the holy spirit? Where does God fit into this picture?
Now read it in “context” to get the full truth
KJV
1John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
1John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
1John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.Why is this such a mystery?
Because this is powerful scripture, and the enemy does not like it.
Learn what God means, instead of erasing it.This is the RECORD OF GOD which he has TESTIFIED OF HIS SON. It was declared from HEAVEN, by our FATHER through his WORD, and the HOLY GHOST (Spirit of Truth) that Jesus Christ is his Son.
And his Son Jesus Christ, having also the SPIRIT OF TRUTH (Holy Ghost) and who came in the flesh (water and blood) bears WITNESS IN EARTH that he was SENT BY HIS FATHER, and always DECLARES THE FATHER, PREACHES THE FATHER, & GLORIFIES THE FATHER.
If someone wants to make this about the trinity, then they are not understanding what God is saying here. There is no three separate persons in heaven, but only one, and that is God. If God did not speak his Word, then there would be NO RECORD. If there was no Holy Ghost, then there would be NO TRUTH to his Words, but he is telling us that he, God himself is bearing WITNESS to his Son, and he did that with his WORD which is THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH. You can find it in the scriptures. It's declared from heaven to us and recorded for us to read and know.
Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
And if we believe on Christ, then we will have the same witness in ourself, because we also will have the HOLY GHOST, which is the Spirit of Truth that will testify.
When are you going to give up disproving God's Word? Why are you letting man be the “final authority” on the Word of God?
Man will not save your soul, nor give you truth.
Can you see that we understand God's word as it stands? and do not hold the “trinity doctrine” but see the message as something else.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 24 2013,10:56) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 21 2013,09:48) Mike……..So i can also say the Glory I had with the Father before the world began right?
You could only say it if you actually HAD glory before the world began, Gene. Did you?Also, don't forget that it is literally, “the glory I WAS HAVING”.
But……..Mike we do have Glory reserved in heaven for us, it's a sure thing because God said so. If i were ready to Die i could say the same thing Jesus said , I could say, Father I am coming to you and ask that you would give me the Glory I had with you before the foundations of the earth. You would say what Glory well here it is, For whom he foreknew them he Predestined to be made into the Glorious Sons of GOD. and I have this asurance also, What is Man that you take note of him, for you have made him a little lower then the angels , but you have “CROWNED” him with GLORY and HONOR, and has put “ALL: thing under his feet , and in that you Have put ALL things under his feet there is “NOTHING” that is under his (mankind's) feet.So Mike it says “CROWNED” that is a “past tense” word right?, So when was I “Crowned” with all this Glory i had with the Father, was it when i “PREEXISTED”, or Will it be when I am resurrected from the Grave, I personally have no recollection of every having been “CROWNED” in some time past, But the wording is in a Past tense (crowned) , right.
Can you see when God says some thing it is as if it already happened. This also applied to Jesus, That Glory afforded him was a planned Glory, that he would receive as A, SON OF MAN and a SON of GOD in the plan, that God the FATHER had for him, and Jesus well knew and understood it, He had finished the works God gave him to Do, and was about to receive the GLORY,and HONOR and all things placed under his feet, Just as it is said for Mankind. But mankind in a general sense have not received it “YET” But JESUS, as a Son of God, who came to existence through the Flesh and is a Son of Man also, has “NOW” received it.
He “NOW” Has that GLORY and HONOR bestowed ON HIM, and I tell you he never had it himself before He received it, after his death and resurrection from the grave. It was held in reserve for him, though he knew he already Had it from the foundations of the earth, just as it is for all mankind who overcome as he did.
None of us as yet have received our GLORY and HONOR and all things put under our feet as yet, but it is sure to happen, because it is prophesied to happen.. IMO
Mike your whole problem is your holding on to the preexistence of Jesus, before his berth on the earth and it's messing up your understanding of scriptures. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Journey….You are right, the enemies of God do not want John 5:7 to be in scriptures, because it show that the FATHER and the WORD, and Holy Ghost (spirit) “ARE” ONE they all are one being, our GOD. Notice it says in verse, (7) “ARE” ONE, but in verse (8) it says “AGREE IN” ONE”, being, that is, and that being is the flesh man Jesus Christ and he is called the Faithful witness. Who came (into existence) not by Just Spirit but by water and Blood, a normal berth process of Human flesh, just as we all have in common with him.
Jesus was begotten in the womb of Mary by God and became both a son of man and a son of God by that very process, he never preexisted his berth on this earth.
Another point, “Ha Satan”, does not want John 5:7 to even be in scriptures because it shows that The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, “ARE” ONE and the same thing, he wants people to believe God and His word and Holy Spirit are all three different things. Why?
So he can use it to move Jesus away from his Flesh and Blood roots and in this way, “SEPARATE” His IDENTITY, with His fellow human brothers and sisters, and of course His “EXAMPLE” to us of How to overcome, is lessened, by making him “DIFFERENT then we are, so why wouldn't “Ha-Satan”, try to discredit that verse as not being in the original text.
All Trinitarians and Preexistence's don't want it to be there, because it goes against their concepts of Jesus being “the word”, instead of our GOD and His word being one and the same thing. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………….gene
j42
Quote And if we believe on Christ, then we will have the same witness in ourself, because we also will have the HOLY GHOST, which is the Spirit of Truth that will testify.
you say;;which is the Spirit of Truth that will testify.
BUT THAT IS DONE BY BEING TRUE TO THE SCRIPTURES AND THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST APOSTLES ;IF NOT THEN YOU ARE NOT IN THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH THAT COMES FROM GOD BUT YOUR OWN LITTLE TRUTHS ;;;;THE FALSE ONES ;
GENE /J42
1Jn 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.
1Jn 5:2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands.
1Jn 5:3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
1Jn 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
1Jn 5:6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that testify:
1Jn 5:8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
1Jn 5:9 We accept man’s testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son.
1Jn 5:10 Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.
1Jn 5:11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have lifeQuote Journey….You are right, the enemies of God do not want John 5:7 to be in scriptures, because it show that the FATHER and the WORD, and Holy Ghost (spirit) “ARE” ONE they all are one being now you guy's big mouths show me that what you mean is really what the apostle John want to convey ;
SO TELL ME HOW DO YOU SEE THAT THERE ARE ALL THREE ONE BEING
PLEASE NO OPINIONS ;JUST SCRIPTURES
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 24 2013,06:29) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 23 2013,18:15) Mike, Do you believe the Law of Moses is the word of God?
Yes. But it is not the ONLY thing called “the word of God”, right?Why do you ask?
Mike,I asked because I was wondering why you do not realize that the children of Israel were the only group said to have received the word of God in the OT.
I believe the Prophets were also said to have received the word of God but that was on an individual basis.
I have never heard of an angel the received the word of God.
I also know that the children of Israel were called God's children in the Law of Mosses.
Deuteronomy 14:1
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)14 Ye are the children of the Lord your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.
He indirectly calls them gods in another passage as the reason they are to obey his commandments.
Deuteronomy 10:16-18
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. 17 For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: 18 he doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 24 2013,06:21) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 21 2013,12:28) Mike, Quote Also consider the parallel use of “with you” in 17:5. “Father, glorify me WITH YOU (in your presence) with the glory I kept on holding/having WITH YOU (in your presence) before the world began.”
If the first “with you” implies that Jesus is ready to finish up on earth, and be glorified in God's presence (as the context clearly teaches), then the parallel use of the same word most likely means the same thing, ie: “in your presence”.
I do not see where you are coming from on this one.
Do you think Jesus is asking to be glorified IN GOD'S PRESENCE when he says, “and now Father, glorify me WITH YOU”?
Mike,Thank you.
No, It did not come to me that Jesus was to be glorified in God's literal presence because it was his self sacrifice that bright righteous renown to his name. It may instead be that God showed he recognized Jesus' worth by making him king of all things in heaven and on earth. In either case it was an event that did not happen before the beginning of the world but instead was prepared to happen before the beginning of the world.
Note: I do find the wording awkward.
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 24 2013,23:47) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 24 2013,06:29) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 23 2013,18:15) Mike, Do you believe the Law of Moses is the word of God?
Yes. But it is not the ONLY thing called “the word of God”, right?Why do you ask?
Mike,I asked because I was wondering why you do not realize that the children of Israel were the only group said to have received the word of God in the OT.
I believe the Prophets were also said to have received the word of God but that was on an individual basis.
I have never heard of an angel the received the word of God.
I also know that the children of Israel were called God's children in the Law of Mosses.
Deuteronomy 14:1
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)14 Ye are the children of the Lord your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.
He indirectly calls them gods in another passage as the reason they are to obey his commandments.
Deuteronomy 10:16-18
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. 17 For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: 18 he doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.
k1Ch 17:3 That night the word of God came to Nathan, saying:
who was saying
Ac 11:1 The apostles and the brothers throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God.
it is clear that it was the written word right ? yes
Lk 3:2 during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert.
Jn 1:33 I would not have known him, except that THE ONE who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’
Jn 1:34 I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God.”THIS IS WHY JOHN THE BAPTIST KNEW ;
Jn 1:14 THE WORD became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Rev 19:13 He(THE SON OF GOD) is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
JESUS CHRIST IS THE ONLY MAN THAT CLAIM “THAT HE CAME FROM HEAVEN AND THAT HE WENT BACK ” THIS IS A FACT.
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