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Quote (journey42 @ Oct. 16 2013,17:31) Hi Kerwin If we can stick to one thing at a time that would be great.
You said that no-where in scripture are angels referred to as spirits.
I gave you the scripture that says otherwise.
You can see for yourself now that you have missed this verse, therefore your view was distorted on this particular matter, but should be clarified now.We should accept when we are in error, then the truth can continue to grow and not be a stumbling block.
Amen.Quote (942767 @ Oct. 15 2013,02:25) Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 14 2013,11:56) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 14 2013,11:09) Hi Wakeup:' You say:
Quote He was made flesh, by birth,the only begotten of God.
Born by the *WILL* of God.
*Now only* is he the Son of God;
*Now only* is God his father,and his God.
For he was made as his brethren/the Son of man/the Son of David.So, the Word was made flesh by birth, that is to say when the Word, Jesus, was born of the virgin Mary? And he was not the Son of God as the Word but became the Son of God when he was born of the virgin Mary?
And you say:
Quote
In the BEGINNING was the word.
*BEGINNING* because that's when the Word *BEGINS* To create.Please show me where the scriptures state that the Word begins to create. Thanks.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty.In the beginning was the Word.
Before the BEGINNING; the word was not used to create.
Before the beginning the Word was not uttered by God.
But was in God;but the creation has not commenced.wakeup.
Hi Wakeup:While it is true and is scriptural that God created everything by His Word, and when he began to create, this Word, or plan was already established, and He knew from the beginning what He was going to do with what he was going to create and what He was going to do with His creation, humanity, and He Knew what He was going to say to humanity through those serving Him, angels, prophets, Jesus, and whatever else was in his plan in reconciling humanity to Himself, that is not what you said initially, but you said that “the Word began to create”, indicating that Jesus, whom you say is the Word, is the creator.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty.Yes;Jesus created everything,
but that was *before* He was made flesh.God will's: and his image spoke the Words, and it is done.
Jesus became the Son of God *after* he was made flesh.
Before that; He was THE WORD OF GOD,who was *with* God.And *before* all creation started,the Word was *IN* God.
Then He was *brought forth*; next to God,as the express image of God.He created all, by the *WILL* of God.Then he was made flesh,by birth.
Then he is called Jesus,the Son of God.
The Son's God is our God.
The Son himself is to be worshipped.
All must go through the Son; or nothing.wakeup.
wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 16 2013,18:12) Yes;Jesus created everything,
but that was *before* He was made flesh.
So Jesus WAS the very God who created all things when he was “the Word”, but then he became flesh and dwelled on earth – not with the glory of the God he USED TO BE – but with the glory of God's SON?
Wakeup, God alone created all things. The Word did not create anything, nor did Jesus.
And for crying out loud, something that used to be God did not change into a flesh being that was no longer God.
Tell it like the scriptures tell it: God, ALONE AND BY HIMSELF, created all things in heaven and earth. He chose to do this THROUGH His Son, who has as one of his many titles, “The Word of God”. (He also created many things THROUGH other vessels as well – such as our parents and grandparents, etc.)
And no, we are not to “worship” Jesus as we worship his and our God, Jehovah. We can bow to, pay homage, and do obeisance to Jesus. But we don't worship the creations.
And if the Word of God who rides the white horse in Rev 19 is not God Almighty Himself – then this Word has no choice but to BE one of the “ALL THINGS in heaven and earth” that were created BY God Almighty Himself. And that, my friend, makes him a creation.
Hi Wakeup:
I have already given you scripture, rev 4:11, which plainly states who is the creator.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (journey42 @ Oct. 17 2013,05:31) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 17 2013,06:03) Journey, The “ministering” in “ministering spirits” tells us that “spirits” as in they are “kind spirits” can apply and fits with the idea of what the angels action is in Hebrews 1:13-2:1.
Hebrews 1:13-2:1
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.Jesus assumed spirits cannot be touched nor can they eat both which angels are recording as doing and therefor cannot be spirits. I took the liberty of pointing out there are other kinds of spirits, of which the Nordic elves manifests many of the same traits angels are said to. Of course the elves being living creatures have bear flesh.
Hi KerwinIf we can stick to one thing at a time that would be great.
You said that no-where in scripture are angels referred to as spirits.
I gave you the scripture that says otherwise.
You can see for yourself now that you have missed this verse, therefore your view was distorted on this particular matter, but should be clarified now.We should accept when we are in error, then the truth can continue to grow and not be a stumbling block.
Journey,I thought we were discussing the various definitions of spirit and how they are applied to angels.
There is nowhere in scripture where angels are described as bodiless creatures who can neither eat or be touched. They are beings motivated by the essential principle of ministering. They, like the Nordic Elves, are a supernatural creature. They are a native created citizen of the Spiritual world.
That is four different definitions of spirit.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 17 2013,06:07) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 16 2013,13:20) Mike, Can you say that you believe that “the word was made flesh” means “A creature named the word was transformed into a human being”?
I say that a spirit creature (the first one ever created) who has as one of his many titles, “The Word of God”, was transformed from a spirit being to a flesh being.And yes, all nine of the statements in that previous post would be different ways of sensibly saying the same exact thing.
Mike,I am pointing out that you are not taking John 1:14 literal but are in fact adding words that are not written but that you believe are assumed to be known by those that hear.
I am doing the same when I point out that your insistence that you go by the literal interpretation of the statement “the word was made flesh” put you in conflict with a literal interpretation of the words ” Jesus came in the flesh”.
Can you explain how your interpretations of those two passages are not in conflict?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 17 2013,06:01) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 16 2013,13:03) Jesus assumed spirits cannot be touched nor can they eat……….
It amazes me how Kerwin will just continue to teach this claim – as if there is scriptural proof of it. There isn't.Angels are spirit beings. They live in the spirit realm of heaven.
Mike,Your claim on this lacks grounds. The disciples believed that Jesus was a spirit and he invited them to touch him in order to prove he was not. After that proof they still doubted and so he asked them to give him fish and he ate it. With that final evidence all but Thomas believed; and the his doubt seemed to be based more on identity that whether or not Jesus was a spirit.
So please tell me, if spirits can be touched and eat then how would both of those proofs have worked to convince the disciples that Jesus was not a spirit?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 17 2013,06:05) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 16 2013,13:15) Mike, I believe you are trying to dodge a conversation you find uncomfortable.
Then you don't know me very well yet, Kerwin.
I don't “dodge” anything – because I don't even BELIEVE any doctrine unless I can scripturally PROVE it. There is nothing for me to “dodge”.
Now, I've asked 9 very simple YES or NO questions. If and when you list all nine, with a YES or NO answer beside each one, we will continue.
(And by YES or NO, I do not prohibit further explanations as to WHY an answer was either YES or NO. You can say as much as you want about your YES or NO answer – as long as your response actually starts with the word “YES” or the word “NO”.)
Mike,Your conditions leave half-truths as answers and that is unacceptable.
Plus your questions require being reworked as I suggested.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 18 2013,04:07) Quote (journey42 @ Oct. 17 2013,05:31) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 17 2013,06:03) Journey, The “ministering” in “ministering spirits” tells us that “spirits” as in they are “kind spirits” can apply and fits with the idea of what the angels action is in Hebrews 1:13-2:1.
Hebrews 1:13-2:1
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.Jesus assumed spirits cannot be touched nor can they eat both which angels are recording as doing and therefor cannot be spirits. I took the liberty of pointing out there are other kinds of spirits, of which the Nordic elves manifests many of the same traits angels are said to. Of course the elves being living creatures have bear flesh.
Hi KerwinIf we can stick to one thing at a time that would be great.
You said that no-where in scripture are angels referred to as spirits.
I gave you the scripture that says otherwise.
You can see for yourself now that you have missed this verse, therefore your view was distorted on this particular matter, but should be clarified now.We should accept when we are in error, then the truth can continue to grow and not be a stumbling block.
Journey,I thought we were discussing the various definitions of spirit and how they are applied to angels.
There is nowhere in scripture where angels are described as bodiless creatures who can neither eat or be touched. They are beings motivated by the essential principle of ministering. They, like the Nordic Elves, are a supernatural creature. They are a native created citizen of the Spiritual world.
That is four different definitions of spirit.
Hi Kerwin,Ok, you are rephrasing your words now. Yes, angels have a body and can eat and be touched if they wish, just like the ones who ate with Lot.
When we are using the term spirit, we should know what we are referring to in the way the sentence is structured.
Angels are created, therefore not beings.
Hi Mike
I have not forgotten your questions and will get back to you as soon as I can.
Your questions will take a lot longer for me to answer and I need to sit down and answer without distractions. I have many distractions today.mikeboll64,Oct. wrote:[/quote]
Quote Hi journey,
You seem to think that “the Word of God” who was made flesh was a literal word that God at one time spoke out of His mouth. This is not the case. The BEING Jesus Christ has the TITLE “the Word of God” simply because he is God's main spokesman. It has nothing to do with Jesus Christ originating as a literal word that God spoke.
I see it this way Mike,
The Word of God is everything that God speaks, and not just a word that God spoke at one time. It may be too wonderful for us to understand but one thing for sure is that the Word of God has power. When it is spoken by God, it is done, because the Word contains truth.
Our Word on the other hand does not always obey us.
We can only make an educated guess based on what information God has given us in the scriptures.
He said in John 1:1 That in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
This tells me that God was always with his Word, and his Word was his alone and belonged to no other.
And everything was created by the Word, and nothing was made without the Word
Then in Genesis he says' “let us create man in OUR image”….
So this then looks like there is more than one,
but God says he created everything by himself,
which can only mean one thing,
he has given life to his Word, and made it a spirit or a being sitting with him at all times for the one single purpose and planning ahead as he always does, to transform his Word and turn it into flesh and make a Son for himself.
So while this is happening, God is still in heaven, and his Word is taking shape inside of a human womb on earth.
God is not changing shape, but his Word (still connected to him) is changing form. God stays as he is, and creates a human baby out of his Word.
You came out of your Father's seed,
And Jesus came out of his Father's seed.When Jesus was born, he was no longer a being, but now was made flesh. This is a new creation…..from spirit to flesh, full human flesh, and not half spirit/half flesh, but full flesh.
And because he is full flesh, he has to go through all the steps, just like any baby, and learn to walk, talk, etc. and then be taught by God.
He was God's spokesman, yes, and his body a vehicle for the Word, but it was this same Word that made him flesh in the first place, and this same Word came out of God.
We were created by God's Word also, but we did not come out of God.
Jesus is God's true offspring, originating from the actual Word of God.John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Christ is in the Father, because he is still his Word.
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (When he was the Word)
Quote (journey42 @ Oct. 18 2013,05:28) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 18 2013,04:07) Quote (journey42 @ Oct. 17 2013,05:31) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 17 2013,06:03) Journey, The “ministering” in “ministering spirits” tells us that “spirits” as in they are “kind spirits” can apply and fits with the idea of what the angels action is in Hebrews 1:13-2:1.
Hebrews 1:13-2:1
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.Jesus assumed spirits cannot be touched nor can they eat both which angels are recording as doing and therefor cannot be spirits. I took the liberty of pointing out there are other kinds of spirits, of which the Nordic elves manifests many of the same traits angels are said to. Of course the elves being living creatures have bear flesh.
Hi KerwinIf we can stick to one thing at a time that would be great.
You said that no-where in scripture are angels referred to as spirits.
I gave you the scripture that says otherwise.
You can see for yourself now that you have missed this verse, therefore your view was distorted on this particular matter, but should be clarified now.We should accept when we are in error, then the truth can continue to grow and not be a stumbling block.
Journey,I thought we were discussing the various definitions of spirit and how they are applied to angels.
There is nowhere in scripture where angels are described as bodiless creatures who can neither eat or be touched. They are beings motivated by the essential principle of ministering. They, like the Nordic Elves, are a supernatural creature. They are a native created citizen of the Spiritual world.
That is four different definitions of spirit.
Hi Kerwin,Ok, you are rephrasing your words now. Yes, angels have a body and can eat and be touched if they wish, just like the ones who ate with Lot.
When we are using the term spirit, we should know what we are referring to in the way the sentence is structured.
Angels are created, therefore not beings.
Journey,So we agree that angels are what is often called a supernatural being and that they have miracles powers. That they have a body and are able to eat the food of mortals.
We also agree they are not a spirit, of the type Jesus denied being after his resurrection.
I was using being to mean a animate entity that exists. They are not humans but they are living creatures.
Hi journey,
While I appreciate you explaining the same exact thing a second time, let me respond with what I said to Wakeup in the Matt 4:4 thread:
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2013,10:07) Wakeup, Listen very carefully, and just DIRECTLY address my point, okay? I don't need you to post the same huge “explanation” over and over. I'm having a problem WITH that explanation, and am asking for CLARIFICATION to solve that problem. And you continuing to post the same thing over and over is NOT clarifying what I need to be clarified.
You said: “God does not become anything but God.
It is his *Word* that became flesh.'If GOD doesn't ever change from being GOD, yet we know God's Word DID change and become flesh, then isn't is fairly clear to you that God's Word was never actually God Himself? YES or NO?
I hear and understand what it is you ARE saying, journey. But there are clear and evident flaws in that explanation. So instead of explaining the same thing over and over like Wakeup has been doing, let's address some of the flaws in that explanation:
1. (Unrelated, but important) You seem to think a creation is not a “being”. Where did you get this? I am a human BEING and I am a creation.
2. You said:
Quote And everything was created by the Word, and nothing was made without the Word
Then in Genesis he says' “let us create man in OUR image”….
So this then looks like there is more than one,
but God says he created everything by himself……..But we've already been through this. Remember Tertullian? God can create all things THROUGH Jesus (the Word of God) and still create all things ALONE, and BY HIMSELF. Because he who creates is ONE, and he THROUGH WHOM the thing is created is ANOTHER.
So don't let your inability to understand this simple thing cause you to delve into an unscriptural understanding about the Word.
3. (Please directly address this one) If the Word was in fact God Almighty Himself, then God Almighty Himself BECAME FLESH.
On the other hand, if God Almighty Himself did NOT become flesh, then the Word was never actually God Almighty Himself…….. because the Word DID become flesh.
Let's start with that one.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 17 2013,11:19) I point out that your insistence that you go by the literal interpretation of the statement “the word was made flesh” put you in conflict with a literal interpretation of the words ” Jesus came in the flesh”. Can you explain how your interpretations of those two passages are not in conflict?
Already explained, Kerwin. If God causes an already existing spirit being to be born from the womb of a human woman, both of these things can be said about that spirit being:1. He was made flesh.
2. He came in the flesh.
The only contradiction is in your own mind – and the contradiction in your own mind is cause by personal desires.
In other words, you are creating a “problem” when in reality, none exists.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 17 2013,11:32) So please tell me, if spirits can be touched and eat then how would both of those proofs have worked to convince the disciples that Jesus was not a spirit?
Again, already answered, Kerwin………… LOTS of times.What Jesus actually taught: Spirits don't have flesh and bone.
What Kerwin reads into Jesus' words: Spirits can't be touched and can't eat.
Only the former is to be believed, Kerwin. The things you've read into it are of no consequence to any seeker of truth.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 17 2013,11:44) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 17 2013,06:05) I've asked 9 very simple YES or NO questions. If and when you list all nine, with a YES or NO answer beside each one, we will continue. (And by YES or NO, I do not prohibit further explanations as to WHY an answer was either YES or NO. You can say as much as you want about your YES or NO answer – as long as your response actually starts with the word “YES” or the word “NO”.)
Mike,Your conditions leave half-truths as answers and that is unacceptable.
Plus your questions require being reworked as I suggested.
Then explain away those imagined “half truths” as you answer all nine with a YES or a NO.Like I've said, I don't require ONLY a YES or a NO. You are free to explain your YES or NO in as many words as you like………………… AS LONG AS THE ANSWERS START WITH A “YES” OR A “NO”.
Or you can refuse to deal with that post altogether, and leave me alone on the subject. You are the one who brought me into this by name. I didn't ask to wade through even more of your nonsensical, philosophical mumble jumble.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 17 2013,10:59) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 16 2013,09:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 16 2013,11:39) It seems to me that many people here have the idea that these words God spoke actually went out and created things. Like the words, “Let there be light” left out of God's mouth, and then went and created light for God. And the reason they come up with this kind of thinking is because they can't figure out another way how, in John 1, the Word could both be with God, and also be God.
Mike………That not true , God and His word are ONE and the same thing……..
If that was really true, Gene, then it was Jehovah Himself who BECAME FLESH and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son.And that means John the Baptist said these words about Jehovah Himself: He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.
But in reality, John the Baptist said those words about “the Word” in verse 15, and about “Jesus Christ” in verse 30.
Mike……. Indeed it was God the Father who was truly “IN” Jesus. Just as Jesus said he was Over and over, so what part of his word you can't bring yourself to believe Mike. God the father is Spirit and can “INDWELL” any flesh person he chooses to, or haven't you read the scriptures that confirm that, scriptures like that God may be all and in you all, or the Father who is “IN” me “He” does the works, or like this one “know you not that your bodies are the temple of the living God Mike a temple is something lived in by God and that is why we are considered Holy , because who is a spirit and is Holy abides in us.I could give you all kinds of scriptures that back that up, but what good would it do? I already have and it has done no good at all, just a waste of time IMO.
Peace and love………………..gene
1).Psalms 33:6 By the WORD of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the Breath of his mouth.
2).Psalms 33:9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.
3).John 1:2 The same was in the beginning *WITH* God.
4).John 1:3 All things were made *BY HIM*; and without Him was not anything made that was made.
5). Colossians 1:16 For by *HIM* were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by *HIM*, and *FOR HIM*:
6).Colossians 1:17 And he is *BEFORE* all things, and by him all things consist.
*SUMMATION*
1. The Word of the Lord = breath of his mouth.
2. He *spake* = the Word = spoken Word = Breath.
3.The Word = spoken Word = Breath is *WITH* God.
The breath is not *IN* God anymore; but *WITH* God.
Next to God; Brought forth *OUT OF GOD* and *PUT*
next to God = the image of God = a Being in the form of
God4. All things were made by *HIM*
*HIM* = the Word = Breath = spoken Word = Word made
flesh = Jesus = The Son of God = the Son of man.5. All things seen and unseen made BY the Word = breath=
spoken Word = image of God = flesh Jesus.6. *He* is *BEFORE* all things.
*HE* = the Word = breath = spoken Word = Jesus in
flesh.
*BEFORE* ALL THINGS = BEFORE ALL THE ANGELS
ALSO.7. The Word brought forth/NOT created. Brought, from *IN*
to *OUT*. From one place to another place.
From *WAS* God; TO *WAS WITH* God.*WAS* GOD = STILL INSIDE GOD.
*WITH* GOD = OUTSIDE; NEXT TO GOD.wakeup.
Wakeup………So is you Words Outside of you also? Jesus said that what comes out of the mouth is what defiles the man because it comes from the heart and that is what defiles the man, Now i ask you what was coming out of the mouth , was it not his words that were defiling him. A Being and is word are ONE and the “SAME” , just as your words and your are, so is God and his words also.IMO
peace and love……………………………..gene
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